90% of the abilities and talents are copy pasta from WoW, I just checked the champion, the reaver and the ranger and they all look very close to the WoW versions. The reaver is based entirely on the death knight with 1-2 abilities from the warrior class. The champion is almost identical to the warrior from WoW. The names are also very similar "Blood Plague" and "Frost Fever" to form the "Blood Fever" etc. etc. Same for the ranger. It's not bad to copy things, besides fantasy MMOs have a typical structure to base on, Blizzard did it too but hell these guys are hardly trying.. It's extremely noticable and I haven't touched WoW for years now. They even have some abilities with the same name "Backstab", "Vicious Cleave", "Two-Handed Specialization".
Looking forward to the game nevertheless but I'd just expect more from a supposedly AAA title.
First off, the classes you named are 3 of sheeh like 32 potential classes in Rift.
And the assassin was the same as well. Plus assassin are looking way too similar for 2 different souls (one does water damage and the other fire and they got about the same abilities)
It is ingenious!
Making the game more accessible and familair feeling is such an incredibly smart move on their part. Not to mention a lot of players that will pick up Rift will be from EQ and WoW. So it will do nothing but bring more and more players to the game.
Rift in my opinion is a healthy combination of elements from EQ, WoW and a bunch of their own unique ideas, concepts, and lore. Very promising and looking forward to it.
Yep, same here, that is if they succeed in balancing it and not being lazy.
If this game is going to make it needs to stick to the basics. So using classic abililtities that go as far back as paper D&D and/or WoW is a best practice. I personally would prefer they keep the names of abiltities familiar rather than rename the skills so they sound different but effectively do that same thing as they did in other games.
Same goes for mobs, cal an Orc and Orc, don't design an Orc can call it something else -- it's just plain silly.
Regarding water vs. fire skills. Anyone know if the elementals will actually be an important factor? Seems like these days they give you elemental skills but the mobs defense vs. certain elementals is not evident. (Exception: AoC raid bosses)
If this game is going to make it needs to stick to the basics. So using classic abililtities that go as far back as paper D&D and/or WoW is a best practice. I personally would prefer they keep the names of abiltities familiar rather than rename the skills so they sound different but effectively do that same thing as they did in other games.
Same goes for mobs, cal an Orc and Orc, don't design an Orc can call it something else -- it's just plain silly.
It's the actual powers/effects they provide that matter.
If the names are similar, that's to be expected. I'd rather they call it backstab than 'swift between-the-ribs thrust'.
Now if the effects the abilities provide end up being so close that the classes feel like you're playing a copied version from WoW... then yeah, that's hardly ideal.
I wonder if it will be horrendously stupid to put all 51 points into a single tree, or if you're essentially going to have to. It would be amazing to see both as viable options.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point. Rift seems to put the emphasis on making tactical choices before entering combat by swapping your spec around. It also seems your ability list will be very limited by your active spec. In comparison, playing any class in WoW feels like you're at the control board of a civilian jumbo jet with all the abilities you may use.
I might be completely wrong, but all we have are speculations after all.
I have followed Rift for a long time, so I think I could clear a few of the misconceptions (or fuel some fires).
-The souls available in the role builder, are based on souls available in the games conventions demo (gamescom, PAX), and represents what was in the game at that alpha build. So the information is quite accurate.
-Yes, putting all your points into one soul is supposed to be viable, but that choice should make you very specialized: i.e. only good in one particular setting.
Finally, yes: Rift is definately trying to take all elements from former classic MMOs, incorporate a moderate amount of their own technology, and make a game that is familiar and accessible to everyone but with a few twists. Call it wow-clone, eq-clone or what suits you.
I am fairly certain they want people that have played, or are currently playing say EQ2 or WoW, to play this game. It should feel like a continuation of those. I think this is a very smart move, and I also believe the game will be a really good and entertaining MMO.
However, that does not mean this will appeal to everyone, and I am slowly losing interest because it is becoming more and more evident that the game will be of the same casual nature as WoW, SWTor and GW2. We'll see.
90% of the abilities and talents are copy pasta from WoW, I just checked the champion, the reaver and the ranger and they all look very close to the WoW versions. The reaver is based entirely on the death knight with 1-2 abilities from the warrior class. The champion is almost identical to the warrior from WoW. The names are also very similar "Blood Plague" and "Frost Fever" to form the "Blood Fever" etc. etc. Same for the ranger. It's not bad to copy things, besides fantasy MMOs have a typical structure to base on, Blizzard did it too but hell these guys are hardly trying.. It's extremely noticable and I haven't touched WoW for years now. They even have some abilities with the same name "Backstab", "Vicious Cleave", "Two-Handed Specialization".
Looking forward to the game nevertheless but I'd just expect more from a supposedly AAA title.
Here is a question for you. Let's say I hire you as a writer for my MMO. And my MMO has different levels of skill for using different weapons. One of those weapon types is "2-Handed Weapons". What I need you to do is to come up with 4 suffixes to name the 4 skill levels.
Without looking at any external information or other games, I'm thinking:
Two-Handed Weapon Basics
Two-Handed Weapon Proficiency
Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Two-Handed Weapon Mastery
What do you think? What would you use? And do the ones I came up with above remind you of any other games? I didn't look at any other games when I was making them up, but I'm damn near 100% certain that at least 1 or more RPG has used each of the names.
I can understand if Rift had the "Herald of Xotli" class. That would be copying. But Assassin? And ability with a unique name like "Backstab?"
None of these are even unique to WoW. I think the reason you're getting a bit of hate here, is that none of the stuff you mention is unique to WoW.
Most of this commonly used RPG / Fantasy terminology. Is it totally bland and unoriginal? Absolutely. Ripped off? Nah.
p.s. mmm.. pasta!
edit: speaking of pasta, if i go to a restaurant and they have a dish called Spaghetti and Meatballs, does that mean they've ripped off East Side Mario's ? (or whatever italian resto franchise you have in your part of the world). But that's just one dish! What if they have Veal Parmigiana also? And Brushcetta?
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
They even have some abilities with the same name "Backstab", "Vicious Cleave", "Two-Handed Specialization".
How dare they use skills that have been in D&D for over 20 years!!!! Thats outrageous!!!! Yeah sure in all that time we have been seeing these skills appearing in LOTS of other computer games but the fact that this game has them too is just.......criminal!!!! They MUST be copying WoW! They cant be getting their inspiration from anywhere else. Thats just impossible.
They should change those skill names straight away.
A skill for sneaking up behind someone and stabbing them in the back.......and they call it....backstab?!! Now thats just silly naming a skill to reflect what it actually does. They should change it to something more original like "Sneaky Old Bastard" or "Mwwahhaaa You Cant See Me Coming To Stab You".
An attack that cleaves through multiple foes is called Vicious Cleave? Noooooo!!!!! They should call it "Multiple Slice n Dice" or "Mega Multiple Super Quick Attack". Yeah I dont see that one often. It's shit and no-one will relate to it, but its different to everything else and thats ALL that matters.
A skill to learn how to become a specialist in using two handed weapons and they call it.......Two-Handed Specialization?!! Now thats just silly! They should change it to "Large and Difficult to Hold With One Hand Weapon Training". Yeah thats much better.
They copied the warrior from WoW too? Oh my god will this blatant copying never end?!! Everyone knows WoW invented the warrior. I know I've certainly never heard anyone use it before. It certainly isnt a standard term that has been in use on this planet forever. A warrior that uses dark magic too? Jeeezz!!! Thats just crazzzzzyyyy!!!! How can they ever expect to get away with it?! Before WoW I had never heard of such things. It's a shame D&D didnt have any of this stuff. They could have had paladins and rangers and death knights but they were silly and didnt have them. The fools!! They let WoW invent it instead!
The idea of the soul system is not so much as "new" classes persay as the fact that you will be able to combine those abilities to create your own class. Right in the dev diary it's stated that you have a cool class on it's own and are able to pick up skills from others. Trion has never said they are innovating classes but how players will use them alot of it will be copy and paste but how the player chooses to do so is what they are after.
They even have some abilities with the same name "Backstab", "Vicious Cleave", "Two-Handed Specialization".
How dare they use skills that have been in D&D for over 20 years!!!! Thats outrageous!!!! Yeah sure in all that time we have been seeing these skills appearing in LOTS of other computer games but the fact that this game has them too is just.......criminal!!!! They MUST be copying WoW! They cant be getting their inspiration from anywhere else. Thats just impossible.
They should change those skill names straight away.
A skill for sneaking up behind someone and stabbing them in the back.......and they call it....backstab?!! Now thats just silly naming a skill to reflect what it actually does. They should change it to something more original like "Sneaky Old Bastard" or "Mwwahhaaa You Cant See Me Coming To Stab You".
An attack that cleaves through multiple foes is called Vicious Cleave? Noooooo!!!!! They should call it "Multiple Slice n Dice" or "Mega Multiple Super Quick Attack". Yeah I dont see that one often. It's shit and no-one will relate to it, but its different to everything else and thats ALL that matters.
A skill to learn how to become a specialist in using two handed weapons and they call it.......Two-Handed Specialization?!! Now thats just silly! They should change it to "Large and Difficult to Hold With One Hand Weapon Training". Yeah thats much better.
They copied the warrior from WoW too? Oh my god will this blatant copying never end?!! Everyone knows WoW invented the warrior. I know I've certainly never heard anyone use it before. It certainly isnt a standard term that has been in use on this planet forever. A warrior that uses dark magic too? Jeeezz!!! Thats just crazzzzzyyyy!!!! How can they ever expect to get away with it?! Before WoW I had never heard of such things. It's a shame D&D didnt have any of this stuff. They could have had paladins and rangers and death knights but they were silly and didnt have them. The fools!! They let WoW invent it instead!
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
I guess everybody here is just wondering WHAT is your point?? The whole genre is just using the same archetypes over and over...
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
I guess everybody here is just wondering WHAT is your point?? The whole genre is just using the same archetypes over and over...
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
I guess everybody here is just wondering WHAT is your point?? The whole genre is just using the same archetypes over and over...
Of course they are using...the archetype.
And that is all Rift is using as well.
They are using the archetypes, because they actually make sense and in some cases have historical real world counterparts and are intuitive.
If someone focuses on stealth and has become really good at sneaking up behind people, why would he give up that advantage and stab somewhere other then the back to start. A kidney shot works as well, so does a liver punch - or stabbing someone in the liver. There are lots of things that con be really debilitating and/or fatal which can be done from the behind with a nice amount of surprise. And the simplest. msot elegant way to describe these things include the term "backstab". It is literal as hell. And the archetypal name for someone like that in WoW is Rogue and he used the Assassination tree. But he is an Assassin, Thief, Brigand.... lots of variations on the title, but what he/she does is going to be pretty similar - because it works.
That is how archetypes are born and how they play out.
As for the terms for a given move. In general it is best to be straighforward and practical in naming abilities. Only a flowery, fop would try to make a simple term like cleave or backstab into something more arcane like Dorsal Dagger Drive.
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
I guess everybody here is just wondering WHAT is your point?? The whole genre is just using the same archetypes over and over...
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
I guess everybody here is just wondering WHAT is your point?? The whole genre is just using the same archetypes over and over...
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
I guess everybody here is just wondering WHAT is your point?? The whole genre is just using the same archetypes over and over...
Of course they are using...the archetype.
So, WHAT is your point??
That Rift isn't just using the "archetype".
Doh. Maybe you explain to us what you would have expected from them, please?
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
I guess everybody here is just wondering WHAT is your point?? The whole genre is just using the same archetypes over and over...
Of course they are using...the archetype.
So, WHAT is your point??
That Rift isn't just using the "archetype".
Doh. Maybe you explain to us what you would have expected from them, please?
I expected them to just base their souls on the general fantasy structure not to put the exact same "talents" and abilities from another MMO, does that make sense?
Doh. Maybe you explain to us what you would have expected from them, please?
I expected them to just base their souls on the general fantasy structure not to put the exact same "talents" and abilities from another MMO, does that make sense?
if you want them to use general fantasy structure as an archtype (which is a term that means general structure), aren't you going to get the same thing every time? If you have an archtype, lets call it the anti-paladin who specializes in say defense and dots, then wouldnt you expect every game that uses anti-palain archtype to specialize in having the same abilities? it doesnt matter if you call it a Blood knight, Plague knight, Dark knight, fallen Knight, Death knight, shadow knight....all of then are in the archtype that with have increases defense and the ability to DOT. (now maybe calling it blood fever and frost fever, etc is a bit too close for some too comfortable to talk about is OK,)
i still say you point was that they are copying WoW, at a minimum the same exact name. Your first post doesnt mention "archetypes", you complain in the first 2 examples that its from WoW, then say WoW copies stuff. So it really sounds like your complaining about Rift, copying WoW, that copying D&D, that copyed Tolkien, then backing that up that no one is creative enough to Call backstab something other then backstab and no one cares to hit a button called " two daggers in the ribs from behind and invisible". at least with this whenever and wherever you play as a rogue you know what to expect fomr a button called backstab and have an idea of what backstab should do, if they change it to mean fireball, you would be pissed and call cow tools on it.
They even have some abilities with the same name "Backstab", "Vicious Cleave", "Two-Handed Specialization".
How dare they use skills that have been in D&D for over 20 years!!!! Thats outrageous!!!! Yeah sure in all that time we have been seeing these skills appearing in LOTS of other computer games but the fact that this game has them too is just.......criminal!!!! They MUST be copying WoW! They cant be getting their inspiration from anywhere else. Thats just impossible.
They should change those skill names straight away.
A skill for sneaking up behind someone and stabbing them in the back.......and they call it....backstab?!! Now thats just silly naming a skill to reflect what it actually does. They should change it to something more original like "Sneaky Old Bastard" or "Mwwahhaaa You Cant See Me Coming To Stab You".
An attack that cleaves through multiple foes is called Vicious Cleave? Noooooo!!!!! They should call it "Multiple Slice n Dice" or "Mega Multiple Super Quick Attack". Yeah I dont see that one often. It's shit and no-one will relate to it, but its different to everything else and thats ALL that matters.
A skill to learn how to become a specialist in using two handed weapons and they call it.......Two-Handed Specialization?!! Now thats just silly! They should change it to "Large and Difficult to Hold With One Hand Weapon Training". Yeah thats much better.
They copied the warrior from WoW too? Oh my god will this blatant copying never end?!! Everyone knows WoW invented the warrior. I know I've certainly never heard anyone use it before. It certainly isnt a standard term that has been in use on this planet forever. A warrior that uses dark magic too? Jeeezz!!! Thats just crazzzzzyyyy!!!! How can they ever expect to get away with it?! Before WoW I had never heard of such things. It's a shame D&D didnt have any of this stuff. They could have had paladins and rangers and death knights but they were silly and didnt have them. The fools!! They let WoW invent it instead!
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
No I read the entire post. What's amazing is that it didnt occur to you, considering I made references to other parts of your post. I simply didnt quote all of it as there was no reason to. That line was simply the bit that I found to be the most ridiculous.
You're criticising the game for having things that have been included in LOTS of rpgs for years and years.....a long time before WoW ever came out. Its just silly. Those archtypes have been appearing in games for over 20 years. The first memories I have of them are from my old D&D games when I was younger, but I'm sure they were in other games way before then as well. It has rogues that are sneaky and do backstabs, warriors that can learn a cleave skill and specialise in two handed weapons, paladins that are warriors in armour that have protective spells and auras, necromancers that raise the dead and drain the life from its enemies, blah blah blah. I remember playing Gauntlet on my Spectrum 48k (yes with the rubber keys) when I was a kid. It has a warrior, a wizard and a rogue. Damn them for copying WoW!
Are you new to rpgs in general? Or did your experience with rpgs begin with WoW? No its ok, no need to answer that. I'm sure no-one needs to read a list of game titles ending with a proclamation that they are a "vet". Strangely you actually admit that you know that WoW copied this stuff itself, and yet you still compare this game to it. Why? Whats with the heavy focus on WoW? Why not state that Rifts is copying something else? Yeah yeah I know you've read an endless stream of WoW related posts on these forums for years, and it has just seeped into you. Their thoughts have become your thoughts. Now here you are pasting out everything you have copied from everyone else. Irony is great.
It's just that....well.....what's the point you're trying to make with this post? What do you think the game should do? Do you expect them to completely reinvent this type of fantasy game purely for the sake of being different? What's the point in that? If you're gonna criticise this game for using standard archtypes (and all the usual skills and abilities which come with them) then there are plenty of other targets for you to moan about as well that stretch back over the years. But of course that would mean breaking away from the flock wouldnt it.......and the flock compares things to WoW so thats what you have to do.
Some times coming up with completely new stuff is great. There are plenty of original ideas around if you look for them. This game however isnt focused on doing new weird and wonderful mind bending stuff though. It's simply aiming to provide a standard fantasy setting for people that like and want that. That includes having the standard archetypes that people know and love. It's also easier for people to get immersed in something they can relate to and feel familiar with.
Hey this is a warrior......but we're not calling it a warrior. We're calling it a wargliktoogarionofeky. Our warrior...I mean...ermm....our wargliktoogarionofeky fires lasers out of his ooomvar slots (no-one has eyes in our game because thats unoriginal), can turn into smoke and is extremely weak in close combat but he has differents auras to support his team mates.
This is a mage....ermm.....a Booggar-iktorak I mean. Our ma....Booggar-iktorak wears heavy armour and is a skilled rakon-vastor (this is our new name for weapons because all other games have weapons and we want to reinvent everything) master. He has an affinity for mechanical things and is a great inventor.
Yeah...ermm.....I think there is a reason why these types of fantasy games have been sticking to the good old archetypes for as long as I have lived. They work and people like them. Why reinvent something that works perfectly well just for the sake of it? Yeah it has stuff similar to WoW and all the other rpgs. Who gives a shit?
Quite amusing. So someone is worried that another game uses something from wow, a game that copied each and every bit from other games...
Besides that Rift more likely copied from Everquest 1/2 than from wow, as most of its developers have their roots there. Oh damn, now I am upset, did WoW indeed copy names from everquest?
WoW did use elements and abilities from eq and other games. I have played MMOs for many years to know the difference between "using something found in another game" and "copy/pasting". I'm not talking about the interface or the structure or anything of that matter here. I'm talking about entire specs being copied directly from the game and not just simply abilities or names. I'm still looking forward to the game but was shocked to see at what extent that happened.
My Problem with your argument is, your basing on alpha information, your not in the game playing it, im sure backstab in 95% of all games out there all does the same thing, just like 2 hand spec will give you more damage or more % to hit with a 2 hander. OMG its a similer icon! well lets think... what would be a good icon for back stab... Oh I know! How about a dagger and perhaps a back in the picture or a shoulder blade! 2 hand spec icon! oh I know how about a big scarry looking axe, maybe a meaty looking arm holding it.
The point is why does it matter what an alpha shot of a game has for icons and abilitys? maybe they will drop everything, maybe the game wont even go into production, maybe it will be the next APB! does it realy matter at this point?
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
I guess everybody here is just wondering WHAT is your point?? The whole genre is just using the same archetypes over and over...
Of course they are using...the archetype.
So, WHAT is your point??
That Rift isn't just using the "archetype".
Doh. Maybe you explain to us what you would have expected from them, please?
I expected them to just base their souls on the general fantasy structure not to put the exact same "talents" and abilities from another MMO, does that make sense?
Just like WoW should have done when they copied ... oh lets see ... every other MMO that came before it ... ?!
They are a limited number of classes/spell types/names in the fantasy game genre of course there will be similarities.
After all WoW copied Druid, Warrior, Mage, etc, etc from EQ
WoW also copied swords and shields, land, water, trees, ZOMG the list is endless!!!
I, personally, don't care as long as it fits in with their world.
When the OP complained about 'backstab' being copied from WoW I knew the post was satire and had a good laugh. Thanks OP, needed a chuckle.
zomg EQ had backstab too, Rift is an EQ clone! hah good times
Amateurs, should have re-named 'backstab' to something more original, like 'stabbing from a flanked position on an enemy to create extra damage due to their inability to properly defend themselves' that would at least be original, sheesh, amirite ladies?
Stealth, cleave, backstab are all generic terms and should be reused by developers because theyve been staples of the genre (gaming) since the 70's. When I see backstab in my abilities list I know what it means, intuitively, when I see "insidious Khukri", not so much.
Comments
If this game is going to make it needs to stick to the basics. So using classic abililtities that go as far back as paper D&D and/or WoW is a best practice. I personally would prefer they keep the names of abiltities familiar rather than rename the skills so they sound different but effectively do that same thing as they did in other games.
Same goes for mobs, cal an Orc and Orc, don't design an Orc can call it something else -- it's just plain silly.
Regarding water vs. fire skills. Anyone know if the elementals will actually be an important factor? Seems like these days they give you elemental skills but the mobs defense vs. certain elementals is not evident. (Exception: AoC raid bosses)
They seem to also do that.
"Slip Away"-> Vanish
"Savage Strike"-> Sinister Strike
"Final Blow"-> Eviscerate
"Assassinate"-> Ambush
"Incapacitate"-> Sap
"Paralyzing Strike"-> Cheap shot
"Jagged Strike"-> Garrote
"Impale"-> Rupture
etc. etc.
Ability names do not matter one bit, really.
It's the actual powers/effects they provide that matter.
If the names are similar, that's to be expected. I'd rather they call it backstab than 'swift between-the-ribs thrust'.
Now if the effects the abilities provide end up being so close that the classes feel like you're playing a copied version from WoW... then yeah, that's hardly ideal.
I wonder if it will be horrendously stupid to put all 51 points into a single tree, or if you're essentially going to have to. It would be amazing to see both as viable options.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point. Rift seems to put the emphasis on making tactical choices before entering combat by swapping your spec around. It also seems your ability list will be very limited by your active spec. In comparison, playing any class in WoW feels like you're at the control board of a civilian jumbo jet with all the abilities you may use.
I might be completely wrong, but all we have are speculations after all.
I have followed Rift for a long time, so I think I could clear a few of the misconceptions (or fuel some fires).
-The souls available in the role builder, are based on souls available in the games conventions demo (gamescom, PAX), and represents what was in the game at that alpha build. So the information is quite accurate.
-Yes, putting all your points into one soul is supposed to be viable, but that choice should make you very specialized: i.e. only good in one particular setting.
Finally, yes: Rift is definately trying to take all elements from former classic MMOs, incorporate a moderate amount of their own technology, and make a game that is familiar and accessible to everyone but with a few twists. Call it wow-clone, eq-clone or what suits you.
I am fairly certain they want people that have played, or are currently playing say EQ2 or WoW, to play this game. It should feel like a continuation of those. I think this is a very smart move, and I also believe the game will be a really good and entertaining MMO.
However, that does not mean this will appeal to everyone, and I am slowly losing interest because it is becoming more and more evident that the game will be of the same casual nature as WoW, SWTor and GW2. We'll see.
Here is a question for you. Let's say I hire you as a writer for my MMO. And my MMO has different levels of skill for using different weapons. One of those weapon types is "2-Handed Weapons". What I need you to do is to come up with 4 suffixes to name the 4 skill levels.
Without looking at any external information or other games, I'm thinking:
Two-Handed Weapon Basics
Two-Handed Weapon Proficiency
Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Two-Handed Weapon Mastery
What do you think? What would you use? And do the ones I came up with above remind you of any other games? I didn't look at any other games when I was making them up, but I'm damn near 100% certain that at least 1 or more RPG has used each of the names.
I can understand if Rift had the "Herald of Xotli" class. That would be copying. But Assassin? And ability with a unique name like "Backstab?"
None of these are even unique to WoW. I think the reason you're getting a bit of hate here, is that none of the stuff you mention is unique to WoW.
Most of this commonly used RPG / Fantasy terminology. Is it totally bland and unoriginal? Absolutely. Ripped off? Nah.
p.s. mmm.. pasta!
edit: speaking of pasta, if i go to a restaurant and they have a dish called Spaghetti and Meatballs, does that mean they've ripped off East Side Mario's ? (or whatever italian resto franchise you have in your part of the world). But that's just one dish! What if they have Veal Parmigiana also? And Brushcetta?
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
How dare they use skills that have been in D&D for over 20 years!!!! Thats outrageous!!!! Yeah sure in all that time we have been seeing these skills appearing in LOTS of other computer games but the fact that this game has them too is just.......criminal!!!! They MUST be copying WoW! They cant be getting their inspiration from anywhere else. Thats just impossible.
They should change those skill names straight away.
A skill for sneaking up behind someone and stabbing them in the back.......and they call it....backstab?!! Now thats just silly naming a skill to reflect what it actually does. They should change it to something more original like "Sneaky Old Bastard" or "Mwwahhaaa You Cant See Me Coming To Stab You".
An attack that cleaves through multiple foes is called Vicious Cleave? Noooooo!!!!! They should call it "Multiple Slice n Dice" or "Mega Multiple Super Quick Attack". Yeah I dont see that one often. It's shit and no-one will relate to it, but its different to everything else and thats ALL that matters.
A skill to learn how to become a specialist in using two handed weapons and they call it.......Two-Handed Specialization?!! Now thats just silly! They should change it to "Large and Difficult to Hold With One Hand Weapon Training". Yeah thats much better.
They copied the warrior from WoW too? Oh my god will this blatant copying never end?!! Everyone knows WoW invented the warrior. I know I've certainly never heard anyone use it before. It certainly isnt a standard term that has been in use on this planet forever. A warrior that uses dark magic too? Jeeezz!!! Thats just crazzzzzyyyy!!!! How can they ever expect to get away with it?! Before WoW I had never heard of such things. It's a shame D&D didnt have any of this stuff. They could have had paladins and rangers and death knights but they were silly and didnt have them. The fools!! They let WoW invent it instead!
The idea of the soul system is not so much as "new" classes persay as the fact that you will be able to combine those abilities to create your own class. Right in the dev diary it's stated that you have a cool class on it's own and are able to pick up skills from others. Trion has never said they are innovating classes but how players will use them alot of it will be copy and paste but how the player chooses to do so is what they are after.
Amazing that you choose to read that part but ignored everything else that leaded to my point. And that wasn't the names silly. Getting an idea for an archetype is one thing but copy/pasting the whole class, abilities along with the spec/talents and whatnot is another.
I guess everybody here is just wondering WHAT is your point?? The whole genre is just using the same archetypes over and over...
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
Of course they are using...the archetype.
And that is all Rift is using as well.
They are using the archetypes, because they actually make sense and in some cases have historical real world counterparts and are intuitive.
If someone focuses on stealth and has become really good at sneaking up behind people, why would he give up that advantage and stab somewhere other then the back to start. A kidney shot works as well, so does a liver punch - or stabbing someone in the liver. There are lots of things that con be really debilitating and/or fatal which can be done from the behind with a nice amount of surprise. And the simplest. msot elegant way to describe these things include the term "backstab". It is literal as hell. And the archetypal name for someone like that in WoW is Rogue and he used the Assassination tree. But he is an Assassin, Thief, Brigand.... lots of variations on the title, but what he/she does is going to be pretty similar - because it works.
That is how archetypes are born and how they play out.
As for the terms for a given move. In general it is best to be straighforward and practical in naming abilities. Only a flowery, fop would try to make a simple term like cleave or backstab into something more arcane like Dorsal Dagger Drive.
Someone please make a good MMO.
So, WHAT is your point??
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
That Rift isn't just using the "archetype".
Doh. Maybe you explain to us what you would have expected from them, please?
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
I expected them to just base their souls on the general fantasy structure not to put the exact same "talents" and abilities from another MMO, does that make sense?
if you want them to use general fantasy structure as an archtype (which is a term that means general structure), aren't you going to get the same thing every time? If you have an archtype, lets call it the anti-paladin who specializes in say defense and dots, then wouldnt you expect every game that uses anti-palain archtype to specialize in having the same abilities? it doesnt matter if you call it a Blood knight, Plague knight, Dark knight, fallen Knight, Death knight, shadow knight....all of then are in the archtype that with have increases defense and the ability to DOT. (now maybe calling it blood fever and frost fever, etc is a bit too close for some too comfortable to talk about is OK,)
i still say you point was that they are copying WoW, at a minimum the same exact name. Your first post doesnt mention "archetypes", you complain in the first 2 examples that its from WoW, then say WoW copies stuff. So it really sounds like your complaining about Rift, copying WoW, that copying D&D, that copyed Tolkien, then backing that up that no one is creative enough to Call backstab something other then backstab and no one cares to hit a button called " two daggers in the ribs from behind and invisible". at least with this whenever and wherever you play as a rogue you know what to expect fomr a button called backstab and have an idea of what backstab should do, if they change it to mean fireball, you would be pissed and call cow tools on it.
edit for typos.
No I read the entire post. What's amazing is that it didnt occur to you, considering I made references to other parts of your post. I simply didnt quote all of it as there was no reason to. That line was simply the bit that I found to be the most ridiculous.
You're criticising the game for having things that have been included in LOTS of rpgs for years and years.....a long time before WoW ever came out. Its just silly. Those archtypes have been appearing in games for over 20 years. The first memories I have of them are from my old D&D games when I was younger, but I'm sure they were in other games way before then as well. It has rogues that are sneaky and do backstabs, warriors that can learn a cleave skill and specialise in two handed weapons, paladins that are warriors in armour that have protective spells and auras, necromancers that raise the dead and drain the life from its enemies, blah blah blah. I remember playing Gauntlet on my Spectrum 48k (yes with the rubber keys) when I was a kid. It has a warrior, a wizard and a rogue. Damn them for copying WoW!
Are you new to rpgs in general? Or did your experience with rpgs begin with WoW? No its ok, no need to answer that. I'm sure no-one needs to read a list of game titles ending with a proclamation that they are a "vet". Strangely you actually admit that you know that WoW copied this stuff itself, and yet you still compare this game to it. Why? Whats with the heavy focus on WoW? Why not state that Rifts is copying something else? Yeah yeah I know you've read an endless stream of WoW related posts on these forums for years, and it has just seeped into you. Their thoughts have become your thoughts. Now here you are pasting out everything you have copied from everyone else. Irony is great.
It's just that....well.....what's the point you're trying to make with this post? What do you think the game should do? Do you expect them to completely reinvent this type of fantasy game purely for the sake of being different? What's the point in that? If you're gonna criticise this game for using standard archtypes (and all the usual skills and abilities which come with them) then there are plenty of other targets for you to moan about as well that stretch back over the years. But of course that would mean breaking away from the flock wouldnt it.......and the flock compares things to WoW so thats what you have to do.
Some times coming up with completely new stuff is great. There are plenty of original ideas around if you look for them. This game however isnt focused on doing new weird and wonderful mind bending stuff though. It's simply aiming to provide a standard fantasy setting for people that like and want that. That includes having the standard archetypes that people know and love. It's also easier for people to get immersed in something they can relate to and feel familiar with.
Hey this is a warrior......but we're not calling it a warrior. We're calling it a wargliktoogarionofeky. Our warrior...I mean...ermm....our wargliktoogarionofeky fires lasers out of his ooomvar slots (no-one has eyes in our game because thats unoriginal), can turn into smoke and is extremely weak in close combat but he has differents auras to support his team mates.
This is a mage....ermm.....a Booggar-iktorak I mean. Our ma....Booggar-iktorak wears heavy armour and is a skilled rakon-vastor (this is our new name for weapons because all other games have weapons and we want to reinvent everything) master. He has an affinity for mechanical things and is a great inventor.
Yeah...ermm.....I think there is a reason why these types of fantasy games have been sticking to the good old archetypes for as long as I have lived. They work and people like them. Why reinvent something that works perfectly well just for the sake of it? Yeah it has stuff similar to WoW and all the other rpgs. Who gives a shit?
My Problem with your argument is, your basing on alpha information, your not in the game playing it, im sure backstab in 95% of all games out there all does the same thing, just like 2 hand spec will give you more damage or more % to hit with a 2 hander. OMG its a similer icon! well lets think... what would be a good icon for back stab... Oh I know! How about a dagger and perhaps a back in the picture or a shoulder blade! 2 hand spec icon! oh I know how about a big scarry looking axe, maybe a meaty looking arm holding it.
The point is why does it matter what an alpha shot of a game has for icons and abilitys? maybe they will drop everything, maybe the game wont even go into production, maybe it will be the next APB! does it realy matter at this point?
Just like WoW should have done when they copied ... oh lets see ... every other MMO that came before it ... ?!
They are a limited number of classes/spell types/names in the fantasy game genre of course there will be similarities.
After all WoW copied Druid, Warrior, Mage, etc, etc from EQ
WoW also copied swords and shields, land, water, trees, ZOMG the list is endless!!!
I, personally, don't care as long as it fits in with their world.
LOL, wow, epic thread.
When the OP complained about 'backstab' being copied from WoW I knew the post was satire and had a good laugh. Thanks OP, needed a chuckle.
zomg EQ had backstab too, Rift is an EQ clone! hah good times
Amateurs, should have re-named 'backstab' to something more original, like 'stabbing from a flanked position on an enemy to create extra damage due to their inability to properly defend themselves' that would at least be original, sheesh, amirite ladies?
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
Stealth, cleave, backstab are all generic terms and should be reused by developers because theyve been staples of the genre (gaming) since the 70's. When I see backstab in my abilities list I know what it means, intuitively, when I see "insidious Khukri", not so much.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
