socialism and communism will be great once we get to that level of technology like Star Trek and can just fabricate anything for free. Till then as long as stuff cost money and people expect to be paid for work, idea, or products then yes....they are fail.
Are you really making the assumption that the humankind/Earth in the Star Trek Universe is a socialist or communist society?
The goal of humankind in Star Trek is to strive towards bettering oneself and humanity.
If economics were present in the Star Trek Universe (Focusing on Earth)...
Communism gives people incentive to do as little as possible as they are not rewarded individually
People that believe this are extremely narrow minded. The greatest achievements in our history were not done with the incentive for profit.
Capatalism gives people incentive to do as much as possible as they are rewarded individually.
What great things has capitalism truly brought us? Has it cured any diseases? One great example is polio, a virus that was crippling our nation, the vaccine was created by a Jonass Salk who travelled the country giving it away for free
What exactly has capitalism brought us? Profit rythyms, Xbox's that are shit, cars that are recalled when they come out, prescription drugs that dont cure anything, but rather create more symptoms that need to be treated. You want to see the glory of capitalism look at the "Diagnostic and statistal manual for psychiatry" In it you will find 870 symptoms that can be treated with psychotropic drugs. Stuff like shyness (social anxiety disorder) and fear of giving speeches (general anxiety disorder) are now menta disorders. In total the pharmecuticals prescribed to treat these disorders nets 76 billion dollars annually. 76 billion dollars generated from a book, comprised of data created by the people making money off it.
This piece of legislation was designed by congress so drug companies could bypass the normal fda procedures by paying at the time 100,000 dollars. Currently that fee is up over 1,000,000 dollars. This is how we got a cancer chemo drug being used to treat acne (acutane) which is made by Roche which is the same company that manafactured the chemical weapon BZ.
In this case, you would be wrong.
However, the problem you face here when trying to assign Capitalism or Communism to Star Trek, is that economics are redundant and non-existent due to replicators.
Therefore, Star Trek has it's own utopian society that is not largely similar to an of the choices above.
In this case you would be only partially wrong.
Until then... stop watching the Daily Show
I would have to say you are entirely confused. We have the ability to create a much better society that does not fall into one of those 3 groups. It is narrow minded individuals who only believe what they are told who are dragging us down. Along with the corporations who enjoy a socialistic market when it comes to there necessary resources, but expect us to live in a so called "free market" economy where they control the supply and demand either by generating a false sense of need through psychologically targeted PR and ad campaigns, or where they control the supply by slowing or increasing production. A great example of this is CORN. In America food corporations subsidize corn (sell it at below productioon cost) by increasing the price on everything else. Most people do not know that corn os in 95% of everything they sell at the grocery store in some form or another. This cheap corn allows them to run their farms at a low rate thus maximizing the return on everything else. When I say farm I actually mean and industrial food manafacturing facility (ahh the beauty of capitalist ambition)
The daily show has nothing to do with economics. In fact economics has nothing to do with science. It is man made and does not correlate with any dynamic system in the universe. There is no such thing as supply and demand in the universe. There is however such thing as natural selection. It is a closed loop ,self regulating sytem that rewards innovation and efficiency, and penalizes destructive behavior, along with weakness.
Not capitalism, not socialism, not communism, gives people the option for bettering themselves but democracy.
If we are to discuss humanity, the type of market one's society lives in is not the most essential system. True that we all need to eat and find ways to trading goods, but people will not find compassion and understanding through capital gains or through government control over property. These are seperate issues.
And in my own experience, working in high school with a Mormon conservative family that operated a small bakery franchise, it did not have a positive effect on their already established sense of compassion and family values. It actually forced them to become very superficial as a family in order to make enough money. The forms of marketing they had to subject themsleves to really blew my mind. I figured at one point they'd be on the street waving bread loafs around in order to draw attention and potential sales. And it's not like they were forced into this lifestyle. They had enough money living in the country but decided to move to the city in order to start a small business. I highly doubt that their establishment is even in operation any more.
Anyways, it's not like we live in a fully capitalistic society anyways. Multinational corporations controlling everything isn't really what Adam Smith was thinking about when he discussed Laissez-faire forms of market.
Democracy is a terrible system also because it involves majority rule. Just because evryone believes it does not mean it is true. The PR campaign behind the second Iraq war should be enough to prove that. If not here is the PR firm that marketed it to us via mainstream media (NBC CBS ABC FOX CNN) , all of which employ numerous CIA agents (project paperclip)
All isms are played out. If you understand how the system works, utilize it. Dont play the game if you dont like it. Criticising governments and economic philosophies are not going to do anything about crappy games. In fact, a great example would be China. Straight up communist country that pounds out MMORPG after mmorpg, how many quality games have come out of there that have been original?
Its the publishers that are to blame. Well what is a publisher? Basically it is an investment group. Their goal is low risk, high return. People dont invest if they dont want to make money. So if you care that much, purchase some stock, and if you have to, contact your proxy. If enough people raise a fuss it will hit their board meetings.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what kind of economy you have, there is gain. Whether it is individual gain, or community gain it is dictated by the ism. Do you think China is making all those games because they are bored?
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
SWG crafting was brilliant, methinx, not just because it was complex. I think it was brilliant because mastering its complexity resulted in a pretty nice payoff in usefulness of the item, and discovery - having knowledge BEYOND the recipe made a difference. When you look at newer complex systems, like FFXIV's and Fallen Earth's, they(to my knowledge) lack that element of payoff and discovery. They require specific ingredients to make a specific thing, which will be no different than the one somebody else crafted. But I'm floating off topic...
The SWG crafting system is always a weird animal for me to discuss. The behind-the-scenes system of managing mats and manipulating stats on the items was like a dream for someone like me. On the other hand I found the implementation of the UI and the skill leveling system to be an unimaginative and derivate piece of crap.
In turn while WoW's behind-the-scenes crafting is quite dull, the UI and the skill leveling system was straightforward and intuitive. In fact I consider the simple addition of a 'Create All' button to be sheer genius compared to earlier MMOs I played.
I realise that my opinion on this is strongly affected by the fact that I have worked for years as a UI developer so for me brilliant behind-the-scenes designs are a dime-a-dozen while straightforward and intuitive UI systems are the 'holy grail'.
SWG crafting was brilliant, methinx, not just because it was complex. I think it was brilliant because mastering its complexity resulted in a pretty nice payoff in usefulness of the item, and discovery - having knowledge BEYOND the recipe made a difference. When you look at newer complex systems, like FFXIV's and Fallen Earth's, they(to my knowledge) lack that element of payoff and discovery. They require specific ingredients to make a specific thing, which will be no different than the one somebody else crafted. But I'm floating off topic...
The SWG crafting system is always a weird animal for me to discuss. The behind-the-scenes system of managing mats and manipulating stats on the items was like a dream for someone like me. On the other hand I found the implementation of the UI and the skill leveling system to be an unimaginative and derivate piece of crap.
In turn while WoW's behind-the-scenes crafting is quite dull, the UI and the skill leveling system was straightforward and intuitive. In fact I consider the simple addition of a 'Create All' button to be sheer genius compared to earlier MMOs I played.
I realise that my opinion on this is strongly affected by the fact that I have worked for years as a UI developer so for me brilliant behind-the-scenes designs are a dime-a-dozen while straightforward and intuitive UI systems are the 'holy grail'.
I concur, the general UI of SWG was great but the crafting one was really bad.
Now, more on the original topic, there's nothing new here. It's about money, period.
For example most of the great game designers, artists and devs I know don't want to be leads at all. That leaves the others in charge.
today's games suck, WoW keeps on going, even if it starts to suck, because its the biggest game and people say WoW, and when they do others know of the millions of subscribers...
but WoW will eventually die, not saying when or how, but it will die, get old, wear out......
Blizzard will probably introduce a new MMO, but im afraid it will be as retarded as WoW
see how greed affects the mind? you get your hands on some cash and they you start juicing 13year olds who get bullied in school and masturbate on female chars in-game, who make a pally and go aroun ranting how pro they are, because they cant tap two keys... O_O
who make a pally and go aroun ranting how pro they are
Probably same type of people going around various forums ranting how today's MMO suck and how retarded /input game or game developer here/ is...
i play WoW for the fun, i like both PvP and PvE, and such people who make pally's and stuff and claim they are pro or whatever, they just make my day.. i dont care if they beat me on a duel or in BG or arena... or while leveling.. its part of the game... i just hope pally's are nerfed in CATA... so every aspect of the game could be balanced again
so dont make stupid prejudices... oups! i dont care do whatever you wanna do, you arent involved with me in any way ;D
The following is kind of tongue in cheek roleplay interview but many elements are so true on many levels.
Big boss at the top reads papers, skims through applicants*
Stops, looks. Applicant #1 - Majors at C++ code and exellent software design, 98% in all classes is first. Has a love for games, and the people who play them*
Big bauss: Please come in good sir.
Applicant #1: Thank you, I am very honored that you have taken the time to view my request.
Big Bauss: But of course, your credentials are amazing, and you might have a great future here. There are a few preliminary questions though.
Applicant #1: Please, ask away.
Big Bauss: What is the most important thing in being part of a Gaming company?
Applicant #1: Well, to me, it's making enjoyable content that everyone can partake in. Creating a good relationship with the community is key to a successful game.
Big Boss then grabs a hankercheif, and dabs the sweat from his brow. Now standing, he goes to his window overlooking the city, and sighs. With a sudden burst of enthusiasm, he turns arond, and slams his hands on the table in front of the applicant*
Big Bauss: NO! It's about money, about making a game so addictive, and making the community wait so long, that they are forced to pay. People will always complain about it, people will always say we're bad for being so indifferent towards the community, and that we should just stop making games. They are angry, they dislike our way of doing things, they complain, they whine... Do you know what eventually happens!?
Applicant #1 is a bit taken back by this sudden change in his future employer. His mind is a confused mess, trying to fight his morals with the rationality of getting a job at the company. He decides to just calm down, and suck it up, so the the CEO looks favorably upon him.
Applicant #1: No sir, I don't.
Big Bauss: They SHUT UP. They eventually loos hope in trying to make a change, knowing we can just starve them out, or give them minor bribes to take away great majorities of their numbers. It is a numbers game after all, and there are 3 different kinds of people, can you name any of them?
Applicant #1: No sir, might you be able to explain them to me?
The Big Boss gets a sudden grin, and puts his chin up with pride*
Big Bauss: It is fortunate that you ask, I so happen to be an expert. Let's see, 3 kinds of people. Well, there are many obvious groups if you happen to check our forums. The most notable being the Revolutionaries, who's primary objective is to discredit our company, and what it does, in order for us to release our content faster, charge less money, and generally connect with the community. Their presense, although a nuissance, is also neccessary. As long as they think we're listening, and think we can change, they will never stand up to us in a way that makes a difference. They are by far the most important part of our operation.
Applicant #1: But isn't that a bit unethical? Don't the players know what they're doing?
The Big Bauss stares coldly at Applicant #1, then puts his hands on his desks and slides them forward towards the applicant*
Big Bauss: Ethics are not the issue here! The issue is making money, as it is in every game, as it will be in every game! And of course they don't know what we're doing, they are to naive to understnad the workings of the modern gaming industry, and the alterior motives behind our moves! Now, anything else?
Applicant #1 shifts awkwardly around in his chair, and looks down, sulking. Like a child without a present on crhistmas, his hopes were shot*
Applicant #1: ... And the other 2 types of people?
The Big Boss smiles again, knowing he is starting to win over the applicant. He relaxes and sit's casually in his chair, spinning around*
Big Bauss: The other 2 groups are small in number, but are of no inconvenience of us. Despite what we do, there is still a group that likes us, and has hope in us. Well... Actually almost everyone has hope that the game will get more content, hope that we'll be on time, but this group defends us. Heck, I think I should almost be paying them for what they do, but fortunately they're paying us. Most of these people are our cash shop buyers, remember to be nicer to them.
Applicant #1 is looking into his lap, defeated by the logic of the Big Bosses words*
Applicant #1: Yes, sir.
Big Bauss: Good. The third group, are the people who actually have the facts, who are not influenced by emotions, and absolutely despise our company. These people give others the numbers, but don't have the numbers themselves to make a change. These are the biggest threats to our operation. We rely on the emotional instability of many of our players to keep our game running smoothly. To keep them angry, to keep them waiting, and to keep them paying. If ever the sensible ones had any actual hold in this community, we might as well just give up on the game. There would be boycott's, riotous forums, and above all, a lower cash flow. People would stop hoping, and start knowing. Fortunately our forum moderators all have strict instruction to silence these perpetrators before people have a chance to digest what they're saying. Do you understand?
Applicant #1 seems uneasy, and almost physically sick from what he's hearing. But he knows he needs the work*
Applicant #1: But isn't it a bit shady to silence our own players for personal gain? Are there still any morals in this company?
The Big Boss again looks furious, and re-assus his 'In your face' position on the desk, but is showing a more tolerant, and almost understanding voice*
Big Bauss: Listen, I am not saying what we do isn't shady, but I am saying it is neccessary for our business. We need to keep what's needed silent, silent, and what's neccessary, necessary. It's how business works. And I will give you an example of how moralistic we truly are!
Applicant #1 looks up as if he'd heard an angel cry his name. A glimmer of hope had appeared in his eye, and he looked directly into the bosses eye's*
Big Bauss: We do update the game. Eventually, once we have squeezed every bit of money we could out of each tiny update, we do something major, and start the process again. We're not here to cuddle with them, we're here to make money.
Applicant #1 is shot down again. Then hesitantly looks up as if to say something, and then slumps back down. The Boss smiles again, and relaxes back into his chair*
Big Bauss: Well, from what I have told you, what is your objective as a game developer?
Applicant #1: To make money for the company.
Big Bauss: How do we stop nosey players from screwing up our immaculate system?
Applicant#1: Freeze their accounts.
Big Boss smiles, *
Big Bauss: I think you have a future here kid. Your first assignment as a new employee is to surpervise the Cash Shop/ Gold items. Anything worth gold you think we can make a profit off of, make it cash shop.
Applicant #1: Yes sir...
Applicant #1 gets up, and walks out of the room. Broken free of his previous beliefs, and ready to work at the money machine of the corporation*
The boss smiles, gets up out of his chair, and goes to a mini-fridge to get a martini glass filled with cherries. He then objectively walks over to the window of his office, and stares meaningfully at the city, with a grin on his face. He starts laughing to himself*
Big Bauss: Another one bites the dust... And from that dust, money will appear.
And even then in a situation like WOW, i'd say they got a pretty big share of the market, but, are they the only game in town? No, tons of people hate it, but the only reason they got there is because they put out a good product. And it wasn't "polished" at all when it came out it was a train wreck just like a ton of games are. t just came out when mmo's were still in their infancy and it was desent, not a lot of people knew what to expect it was new. It did well, and blizzard "then" were able to pump money into it and inovate to this day, if they didn't then they would loose a lot of that buisness.
Same as Eve, i played that at beta and release it wasn't "polished" either.
Capitalism Does breed innovation and Does breed Competition, but neither would Survive without Creativity.
So you get crap uninspired MMo's coming out like FF and they are going nowhere, Aion is doing alright, why?
Cause people like it. But was their launch "polished" No. They had to hop to it to keep that base, and they did, else they would tank.
If they let it get Stagnate, someone else who is being Creative and Innovative is going to come a long and pull that rug right from under them, by by.
Is any same person going to do it for free once someone gives em 10 bucks for it?? UH, NO. Would they be wise to just leave it as it is and say 10 bucks or work their buts off to make it better so they can collect more 10 dolar bills.
Look at the dude who made Minecraft, (probably got bored of playing warcraft) farted out that game in like a week, (so he says) .With 1996 graphics, if his site is telling the truth he's got 6-7 thousand people buying that game a day at 10 bucks a pop. Why?
It was free to start? Why charge? Is that even a question.
Cause it's something innovative, that people like, is it polished? hell no, it's frikin Alpha, the dudes rolling in 70k a DAY, for something he farted out in a week, that looks like stabbed poo that's still in ALPHA.
Capitalism baby, ... It's a shame i can only imagine your in college, the kind of social crap they are feeding kids these days,
walking contradictions, don't even know they are protesting against something for which they would not want to live without if you tried to pry it from their cold dead hands.
Do yourself a favor and drop out. Why would you need a college education if you hate corporations so much?
You plan to work for one do you not? Or maybe make your own buisness?
But you couldn't do that, that would make you a capitalist right?
Oh but you could be just half capatalist, and you know half against c
I would like you to indulge tis comment, are you reffering to "Sherman anti trust"? If so that is not cut and dry. For instance here in Las Vegas, the people of this community have one option for electricity, NVENERGY, while the owners of industry get to shop the grid. One could argue we have the choice for green energy, but when you weigh the cost it is not really an equal option, and you remain oh the grid and the power comany discounts your bill. In fact when private HOA's are taken into consideration they have a say as to whether or not you can add that to your house. So please explain these laws against monopolies.
And even then in a situation like WOW, i'd say they got a pretty big share of the market, but, are they the only game in town? No, tons of people hate it, but the only reason they got there is because they put out a good product. And it wasn't "polished" at all when it came out it was a train wreck just like a ton of games are. t just came out when mmo's were still in their infancy and it was desent, not a lot of people knew what to expect it was new. It did well, and blizzard "then" were able to pump money into it and inovate to this day, if they didn't then they would loose a lot of that buisness.
Same as Eve, i played that at beta and release it wasn't "polished" either.
Capitalism Does breed innovation and Does breed Competition, but neither would Survive without Creativity.
Human beings breed innovation and creativity. You can trace that back to our days of hunting and gathering, so please do not sell our ancestors short. If this were the case please list some innovations that have been beneficial to our species and would not have been possible without the philosophies of capitalism. I can tell you right now that the media we are using to convey our thoughts was created by the state (DARPA) and was not put into use to make money. In fact the internet was around along time before there were "providers"
So you get crap uninspired MMo's coming out like FF and they are going nowhere, Aion is doing alright, why?
Cause people like it. But was their launch "polished" No. They had to hop to it to keep that base, and they did, else they would tank.
If they let it get Stagnate, someone else who is being Creative and Innovative is going to come a long and pull that rug right from under them, by by.
Is any same person going to do it for free once someone gives em 10 bucks for it?? UH, NO. Would they be wise to just leave it as it is and say 10 bucks or work their buts off to make it better so they can collect more 10 dolar bills.
Look at the dude who made Minecraft, (probably got bored of playing warcraft) farted out that game in like a week, (so he says) .With 1996 graphics, if his site is telling the truth he's got 6-7 thousand people buying that game a day at 10 bucks a pop. Why?
It was free to start? Why charge? Is that even a question.
Cause it's something innovative, that people like, is it polished? hell no, it's frikin Alpha, the dudes rolling in 70k a DAY, for something he farted out in a week, that looks like stabbed poo that's still in ALPHA.
Capitalism baby, ... It's a shame i can only imagine your in college, the kind of social crap they are feeding kids these days, kids usually do not attend college unless they are extremely intelligent, therefore if a child was in college, it would be indicative of a superior intellect which would also corelate with a non "crap" diet.
The "corporation" is not a construct of capitalism. It is however a construct of law, and law exists in all societies in which you have the emergence of the state. What is the state? It is the schools, the prison system, the police department, the courts... The funny thing is. These things, "the state", do not become necessary until you have a distinction between those who have, and those who have not.
walking contradictions, don't even know they are protesting against something for which they would not want to live without if you tried to pry it from their cold dead hands.
This is a very good argument for someone who has no idea what is going on. The only thing contradictory is the system itself. How it relates to the quality of MMORPG's is non quantifiable.
Do yourself a favor and drop out. Why would you need a college education if you hate corporations so much?
You seem to be focusing on extremist points of view.
This is not necessary, in fact life is much simpler than what other people would lead you to believe.
Capitalism is quite simply where the means of production are privately owned operated for a private profit and decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the market. This in itself is contradictory to the free market. Adam Smith, in his world changing book "The Wealth of Nations" , declare that natural value is dependent on three factors in a free market economy: 1 Labor, 2 Rent, 3 Profit. It is easy to see that due to the influence of supply and demand, the value of those three variables can and will fluctuate. Supply and demand, when left to its own algorythyms will behave as a dynamic cycle similar to "natural selection". Meaning, as intelligence, and physical prowess rise, so also does our ability to adapt and simplify.
In a free market, adults are left to make their own educated decisions. This entails a certain amount of responsibility. I think we can all agree that no two people interact equally with information. In fact the cognitive abilities of logic and deduction vary greatly from peron to person, even parent to child. (One needs to understand the psyche to get a full appreciation for the causality of human cognitive ability) That being said, a responsible adult is only as capable of understanding the information available to them. Now the variable that ruins our form of so called free market capitalism is not cognitive skills, no it is the quality of the information that is disseminated. That being said I think we can all agree that the information being handed out by developers, is usually biased towards creating an artificial demand, and then psychological attempts are used to build on that after the demand is initially rooted. In fact, a skilled public relations technician knows that if executed properly, this artificial demand will result in, not them convincing you to buy the game, on the contrary, if properly executed it will result in you convincing them to sell it to you. This is not a free market, and it is a perverted form of capitalism where not only is the means of production are privately owned, but the state is used to disseminate information that is beneficial to the owners of the means of production.
You plan to work for one do you not? Or maybe make your own buisness? Buisness is defined as The occupation, work, or trade in which a person is engaged.
Please explain to me how buisness and capitalism are synonymous.
But you couldn't do that, that would make you a capitalist right?
Oh but you could be just half capatalist, and you know half against c
If you view the society we live in with a clear head, that is one that is not obstructed by the bias instilled through a constant bombardment of propaganda (the new name for it is public relations), you would see that America is a hybrid system and it has been that way for over 100 years. We live in a society where huge conglomerates of multi national corporations enjoy the safety and security of socialized resources, especially from foreign countries. One needs only look at history and see what happens when a foreign leader is democratically elected and then threates the supply of these conglomerates resources. War is waged. Whether covertly or overtly eventually time reveals all.
So these conglomerates enjoy the protection of our their intrests by our government. This is called corporatism. So while they benefit from this socialism exponentially, they inturn utilize the PR (propaganda) machines that they own, to create a public that is willing to attack their own family in defense of something that does not truly exist, in this case Capitalism. They invest in non profit think tanks that disseminate the information for our elected officials, who in turn either voluntarily remain ignorant and enjoy lucrative compensation, or become victims of some scandal, either by their own concotion or one that is fabricated.
The truth is capitalism and mmorpgs have no causal effect on one another. It is simply a matter of low risk versuses high reward. Until you can prove that this new innovative idea is worth the risk, the only folks who will take this risk is indie develepors. As their successes continue to grow, we will beging to see mainstream publishers funding development for these projects. It has nothing to do with blood sucking capitalists, so much as it has to do with investors who want to make more money of their money...hence the word "investors". The difference between a WOW and a Darkfall is one has a know quantifiable return rate while one is similar to a craps table. I met a brilliant man once who simplified this concept and told me that the only way to innovate an mmorpg, is to eliminate the risk.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
The truth is capitalism and mmorpgs have no causal effect on one another. It is simply a matter of low risk versuses high reward. Until you can prove that this new innovative idea is worth the risk, the only folks who will take this risk is indie develepors. As their successes continue to grow, we will beging to see mainstream publishers funding development for these projects. It has nothing to do with blood sucking capitalists, so much as it has to do with investors who want to make more money of their money...hence the word "investors". The difference between a WOW and a Darkfall is one has a know quantifiable return rate while one is similar to a craps table. I met a brilliant man once who simplified this concept and told me that the only way to innovate an mmorpg, is to eliminate the risk.
This made me chuckle a bit. The first sentence completely contradicts the remainder of the paragraph. The paragraph is pretty naive overall, but at least it was amusing.
The truth is capitalism and mmorpgs have no causal effect on one another. It is simply a matter of low risk versuses high reward. Until you can prove that this new innovative idea is worth the risk, the only folks who will take this risk is indie develepors. As their successes continue to grow, we will beging to see mainstream publishers funding development for these projects. It has nothing to do with blood sucking capitalists, so much as it has to do with investors who want to make more money of their money...hence the word "investors". The difference between a WOW and a Darkfall is one has a know quantifiable return rate while one is similar to a craps table. I met a brilliant man once who simplified this concept and told me that the only way to innovate an mmorpg, is to eliminate the risk.
This made me chuckle a bit. The first sentence completely contradicts the remainder of the paragraph. The paragraph is pretty naive overall, but at least it was amusing.
You seem to think that investors are only found in capitalism. Investors are a product of the free market.
You can have a complete capitalist economy existing with only private individuals.
You can have a complete socialist economy in which every citizen is invested in the means of production.
If you doubt that, please explain why and where that paragraph is cotradictory.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
socialism and communism will be great once we get to that level of technology like Star Trek and can just fabricate anything for free. Till then as long as stuff cost money and people expect to be paid for work, idea, or products then yes....they are fail.
Are you really making the assumption that the humankind/Earth in the Star Trek Universe is a socialist or communist society?
The goal of humankind in Star Trek is to strive towards bettering oneself and humanity.
If economics were present in the Star Trek Universe (Focusing on Earth)...
Communism gives people incentive to do as little as possible as they are not rewarded individually
People that believe this are extremely narrow minded. The greatest achievements in our history were not done with the incentive for profit.
Capatalism gives people incentive to do as much as possible as they are rewarded individually.
What great things has capitalism truly brought us? Has it cured any diseases? One great example is polio, a virus that was crippling our nation, the vaccine was created by a Jonass Salk who travelled the country giving it away for free
What exactly has capitalism brought us? Profit rythyms, Xbox's that are shit, cars that are recalled when they come out, prescription drugs that dont cure anything, but rather create more symptoms that need to be treated. You want to see the glory of capitalism look at the "Diagnostic and statistal manual for psychiatry" In it you will find 870 symptoms that can be treated with psychotropic drugs. Stuff like shyness (social anxiety disorder) and fear of giving speeches (general anxiety disorder) are now menta disorders. In total the pharmecuticals prescribed to treat these disorders nets 76 billion dollars annually. 76 billion dollars generated from a book, comprised of data created by the people making money off it.
This piece of legislation was designed by congress so drug companies could bypass the normal fda procedures by paying at the time 100,000 dollars. Currently that fee is up over 1,000,000 dollars. This is how we got a cancer chemo drug being used to treat acne (acutane) which is made by Roche which is the same company that manafactured the chemical weapon BZ.
In this case, you would be wrong.
However, the problem you face here when trying to assign Capitalism or Communism to Star Trek, is that economics are redundant and non-existent due to replicators.
Therefore, Star Trek has it's own utopian society that is not largely similar to an of the choices above.
In this case you would be only partially wrong.
Until then... stop watching the Daily Show
I would have to say you are entirely confused. We have the ability to create a much better society that does not fall into one of those 3 groups. It is narrow minded individuals who only believe what they are told who are dragging us down. Along with the corporations who enjoy a socialistic market when it comes to there necessary resources, but expect us to live in a so called "free market" economy where they control the supply and demand either by generating a false sense of need through psychologically targeted PR and ad campaigns, or where they control the supply by slowing or increasing production. A great example of this is CORN. In America food corporations subsidize corn (sell it at below productioon cost) by increasing the price on everything else. Most people do not know that corn os in 95% of everything they sell at the grocery store in some form or another. This cheap corn allows them to run their farms at a low rate thus maximizing the return on everything else. When I say farm I actually mean and industrial food manafacturing facility (ahh the beauty of capitalist ambition)
The daily show has nothing to do with economics. In fact economics has nothing to do with science. It is man made and does not correlate with any dynamic system in the universe. There is no such thing as supply and demand in the universe. There is however such thing as natural selection. It is a closed loop ,self regulating sytem that rewards innovation and efficiency, and penalizes destructive behavior, along with weakness.
Not capitalism, not socialism, not communism, gives people the option for bettering themselves but democracy.
If we are to discuss humanity, the type of market one's society lives in is not the most essential system. True that we all need to eat and find ways to trading goods, but people will not find compassion and understanding through capital gains or through government control over property. These are seperate issues.
And in my own experience, working in high school with a Mormon conservative family that operated a small bakery franchise, it did not have a positive effect on their already established sense of compassion and family values. It actually forced them to become very superficial as a family in order to make enough money. The forms of marketing they had to subject themsleves to really blew my mind. I figured at one point they'd be on the street waving bread loafs around in order to draw attention and potential sales. And it's not like they were forced into this lifestyle. They had enough money living in the country but decided to move to the city in order to start a small business. I highly doubt that their establishment is even in operation any more.
Anyways, it's not like we live in a fully capitalistic society anyways. Multinational corporations controlling everything isn't really what Adam Smith was thinking about when he discussed Laissez-faire forms of market.
Democracy is a terrible system also because it involves majority rule. Just because evryone believes it does not mean it is true. The PR campaign behind the second Iraq war should be enough to prove that. If not here is the PR firm that marketed it to us via mainstream media (NBC CBS ABC FOX CNN) , all of which employ numerous CIA agents (project paperclip)
All isms are played out. If you understand how the system works, utilize it. Dont play the game if you dont like it. Criticising governments and economic philosophies are not going to do anything about crappy games. In fact, a great example would be China. Straight up communist country that pounds out MMORPG after mmorpg, how many quality games have come out of there that have been original?
Its the publishers that are to blame. Well what is a publisher? Basically it is an investment group. Their goal is low risk, high return. People dont invest if they dont want to make money. So if you care that much, purchase some stock, and if you have to, contact your proxy. If enough people raise a fuss it will hit their board meetings.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what kind of economy you have, there is gain. Whether it is individual gain, or community gain it is dictated by the ism. Do you think China is making all those games because they are bored?
I'm not defending one side or the other, so put down your Michael Moore plush and take it easy sweetheart.
I will reply to your entire mass of text with one simple answer to the only thing question you posed that actually applies to my post. I have no desire in replying to your hissy fit resulting from my throwing of a cog into your "all Star Trek is a communist block party gangbang machine."
"The greatest things in our history were done without incentive or profit."
Great things are done with and without incentive of profit, it's not exclusive to one or the other. Anyone who believes either way is equally as narrow minded as the other.
What you seem to have missed where I said "economics in the Star Trek universe."
If there were no replicators, it is obvious that there would be motivation to create and invent due to the incentive for monetary gain as well as to improve society. In that situation capitalism would have existed, and capitalism always provides more incentive to produce for individual gain in comparison to communism. Notice I said incentive to gain, not incentive to create. The incentive to create for the betterment of society is equal in either situation. Regardless, there are replicators and always have been replicators in Star Trek.
Therefore, there is no reason for anyone to create products in the movie for monetary gain as everything can be produced to specification by a replicator. Once you take away the demand for such production, what is then left is focus on invention and focus on the betterment of society. Neither of these ideas is exclusive to capitalism or communism, therefore neither one exists entirely in the Star Trek Universe. Star Trek is it's own utopian society, taking the good parts from each and focusing on going where no one has gone before, bettering what has never been bettered before.
I said "Stop watching the Daily Show" in response to the idea that capitalism is the source of all problems in the world. It was a blanket statement to anyone who runs around with a "capitalism kills cute kittens" attitude that is usually based on what they are told to believe on television, comedic or not.
I said "Stop watching the Daily Show" in response to the idea that capitalism is the source of all problems in the world. It was a blanket statement to anyone who runs around with a "capitalism kills cute kittens" attitude that is usually based on what they are told to believe on television, comedic or not.
Maybe you should start watching the Daily Show, because it hardly acts like Capitalism is pure evil. That said, it doesn't act like capitalism is perfect either (because it isn't, which is why there are no purely capitalist countries).
Only in the last years of my mmorpg exprience i did struggle with the ingame economical system a lot and was thinking about it, they offer the same disputable economic system like we have it already in the real world. I did wonder why they did not offer some kind of alternative economical systems in their games. The companies reflect the players ingame, running greedy after every gold and item...think about it.
To start, I am not involved in the video game industry and have only consumed these products for roughly eight years. Maybe this is not news any longer, and maybe I've been a moron myself for consistently hoping that newly developed mmorpgs are actually going to be worth something, but I think it's about time I take a leave from MMOs or video games entirely...
~snip~
Here's a good article about how MMOs are trying to get you addicted:
Wow that's quite a fairytale fantasy mmorpg you've cooked up there. Too bad no multi billion dollar company is gonna back it up to be made. So I'll never play it.
Seriously. There are plenty of games that carry on the spirit of sandbox mmos. It's just that they are not the ones being pushed with fancy advertisments and loud mouth forum jockies. And isn't that the whole freakin point of sandbox mmos? To avoid the high profile drama associated with their themepark, multi million dollar budgeted brothers? So why is it that most so called sandbox mmo players are pining for some time in the limelight when they could be discovering gems like:
Wurm Online
Haven and Hearth
Istaria
A Tale in the Desert
Saga of Ryzom
Minecraft
Love
Mortal Online
Vanguard
Darkfalls
EVE
I'll tell you why. Because it seems to me that you want sandbox mmos to be FoTM or have that mainstream pizazz and that's not what they are about. They never were and they never will be. So take a step back and try to remember how cool people thought you and your friends were playing D&D at recess...no...they didn't think you were cool you say? Well of course not, but now all of a sudden you demand the same treatment/respect/attention of the industry investment dollar that you curse and damn under the same breath? I'm sorry but now you're being a little unrealistic. Find a nice quite sandbox mmo, get to know the small team of developers that are running it and find a better outlook to your gaming life.
Just had to say great post, spot on I've been thinking along the same lines. There are plenty of original deep games out there, as mentioned above, just find one and support it even if its has some faults.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Remarkable post, something i have had on my mind for a few years now. I've been meaning to articulate this at some point over the last few years but you have hit the mark OP. These are dark times for the gaming industry, as we notice every one jumping on the pay-to-play bandwagon, which only spells disaster for the future of the industry.
Modern mmo's have nothing to do with imagination, immersiveness, ingenuity, creativity, aesthetic appeal, or anything. They have become streamlined bullshit that is solely consisted of the most repetitious actives targeting the weakest aspects of human behavior.
Anyhow, yeah, MMOs now have a lot of problems, but it isn't like EQ, UO, or the like were any better. They even had more problems. It's invetiable that a subscription-based game is going to be grindy, since the developers have a massive incentive to stretch the fun out as much as possible (they get more money). Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't take that much money to run a server, certainly not remotely close to 15 bucks a month.
That statement is either very naive, or very disingenuous.
That is, unless you exclude the cost of having paid staff keeping those servers running, updated, etc. That is unless you exclude cost of paying GMs who remain logged-in to the game to keep an eye on things, handle in-game issues, etc. That is unless you exclude the cost of paying customer support personnel to take phone calls or web-chats to handle issues outside the game. That is unless you exclude the cost of paying a live team who designs, programs, implements and tests new content, bug fixes and such. That is unless you exclude all the other various expenses that go along with running *any* business... not just a MMORPG developer.
$15 a month does not only go to "monthly server fees". It goes toward day-to-day operations; all the people required to keep the *business* of maintaining an online service going... All of what you think can be maintained for less than $15 a month.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
These developers don't give a shit about your experience of the game, or creating new forms of art and play through virtual worlds. Now it's about taking advantage of your need to gather and hoard items, the psychological addiction of loot probability (gambling essentially), keeping you on the treadmill for as long as possible, and creating an overall experience that treats the player as some patient who needs his/her fix of MMO crack.
I thoroughly enjoyed your write up. Also, what you refer to can also be called a 'Skinners box', and it is the largest scam of humanity. It plays off our psycological behavior of repetition for a mechanically randomized chance of reward based on persistance.
The idea behind these new dungeons and grouping was a decent idea, basically... 'Force people to team up to fight evil', but it became more of a forced collaboration between total strangers. Every man is a loner in these 'groups'.
Hi. I haven't posted here in ages.. Anyway, I agreed with much of your post, as I'm an older gamer and grew up playing mostly great RPG games on pc's and other computer systems well before there was an internet, great console systems, etc. I've played countless/most MMO's, since their inception, and was a beta tester for a large number of the original ground-breaking MMO titles.
I've thought the PC game industry has been DEAD for YEARS, in general, and I'd really like to see someone argue with me. Most can't, as they weren't even born when I was playing some of the best games that ever existed, and so on. So without that experience, these people don't have the ability to really argue the point. I don't feel like arguing anyway.
Anyway, that being said... I would like you to post examples of many of things you said you wanted to see, the things you did not provide examples for. I was trying to figure out - exactly - what you meant when you said a game should have this or that, instead of what it has now. I'd like you to site other games as examples, like you did for a couple of points you made.
I don't agree with your competition sentiment (saying that there isn't enough of it), as I think that just brings out the worst in people, and there is TOO MUCH of it, especially with immature people, hiding behind their computers, acting like anti-social jerks, hoarding, stealing mobs, being greedy, etc. I think there's already a ton of "imaginary" competition already, that people create themselves, like trying to be the first person, group, guild, etc, that got a certain item, or get their entire guild (and help no one else) equipped with such items, being the first to hit certain levels, people owning/controlling certain areas (if the game allows, or even doesn't), people abusing bugs, exploits, the game economy (if it's not already ruined) to be better/stronger/faster/better equipped, etc., than their "opponents", either real or imagined, in addition to what might be in the game already. I also think there's plenty of competition in society already/real life, in education (in sports, social forms that people just invent - like popularity, etc), dating, people you compete with at work (that you don't want to, but they pretty much force you to), and so on. I don't want to go there...
I wish there were actually socially constructive events planned into the game engine that would be fun, require people to help each other, like mob town invasions, to cite just one example, instead of always making it about "winning"/killing each other (which is what most (or just about all) games come down to when they talk about competition). Many of you love it, but trust me, it gets realy old after a while, after the fun of blowing away your friends has passed. I did the whole FPS on-line stuff ages ago, and grew sick of how empty it was, same with player killing, as I didn't get any satisfaction of being a bully in real life, let alone online to people I don't even know.
Grief killing vs. real pvp.. there's a big difference. I rarely found a game where I wasn't constantly attacked by cowards/griefers/jerks, in a group, many levels higher than me, while I was alone, was already fighting a monster, at 1/2 or less health, and so on, just because the game "allowed" it, but there where no "honor points", or even any reward, in game, to killing me. People did it for really pathetic reasons, if you even can call those "reasons".
Games still come out today that allow mindless global player killing (some free mmo's), or "pvp" in quest areas, etc, which I'll never really understand, as it just doesn't make any sense, especially when it goes against what 95% of the players are actually doing in a certain area (like, they are questing/leveling, etc). I find "serial killers" in games and "murderers", if you want to parallel their tactics and such to say, real life, as opposed to players that want to compete on any kind of level playing ground, like in all those completely empty "arenas". Only found a small handful of games to have decently designed, hard to abuse, "pvp".
Anyway I'm rambling now about some things I hate, or have always hated about MMOs, interesting post though. Don't even get me started on "grinding", how it's like a 2nd job, boring/mindless, etc, and rare item hoarding/hunting, boss/mob stealing, and that garbage. At least WoW created instances to help avoid a lot of those problems... but I hear you on ppl just running them without even talking to anyone in the group, over and over again, just to get those ultra precious "items". That's a form of grinding too, actually.
Modern mmo's have nothing to do with imagination, immersiveness, ingenuity, creativity, aesthetic appeal, or anything. They have become streamlined bullshit that is solely consisted of the most repetitious actives targeting the weakest aspects of human behavior.
Anyhow, yeah, MMOs now have a lot of problems, but it isn't like EQ, UO, or the like were any better. They even had more problems. It's invetiable that a subscription-based game is going to be grindy, since the developers have a massive incentive to stretch the fun out as much as possible (they get more money). Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't take that much money to run a server, certainly not remotely close to 15 bucks a month.
That statement is either very naive, or very disingenuous.
That is, unless you exclude the cost of having paid staff keeping those servers running, updated, etc. That is unless you exclude cost of paying GMs who remain logged-in to the game to keep an eye on things, handle in-game issues, etc. That is unless you exclude the cost of paying customer support personnel to take phone calls or web-chats to handle issues outside the game. That is unless you exclude the cost of paying a live team who designs, programs, implements and tests new content, bug fixes and such. That is unless you exclude all the other various expenses that go along with running *any* business... not just a MMORPG developer.
$15 a month does not only go to "monthly server fees". It goes toward day-to-day operations; all the people required to keep the *business* of maintaining an online service going... All of what you think can be maintained for less than $15 a month.
First, I wasn't referring to new content regarding running servers. If you bothered to read my entire post, you would have realized that because I addressed content separately. As for customer service, staff, bug fixes, etc...all of that is done without monthly fees in other businesses and even other games with free multi-player servers (like say...SC2!, though there are hundreds of examples). Do you really pay no attention to any other business or game besides subscription-based MMOs, and hence think their charges make sense?
The only shred of an argument is GMs, but this is truly just an extension of regular customer service. If you look at the big games like WoW, then you'd know they certainly aren't sticking around in game to monitor anything. The fact that TOS violations regularly happen in general chat (best example are the stupid anal 'jokes') and zip happens unless you open a ticket which doesn't get responded to for 30-60 minutes makes it pretty clear that they aren't spending a bunch of cash on constant GM monitoring. I hear older games had some GM-run events, but anyone who can do a little arithmatic will quickly realize having someone do that now and then is still a tiny fraction of 15 bucks each month.
Now, like I said, of course content costs money, but when you are paying for 3-4 retail games per year (which is more like 6 or 7 games when you take into account there is no store taking a cut of the profits) and you don't even get 1 game of content added, then pretending it is justified is quite laughable.
The only person naive here is you. 15 bucks a month IS a ripoff. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.
Pretty much agree. Generally speaking MMO dev departments seem to be staffed with juveniles incapable of higher thought processes in regards to competition and challenging/immersive game play.
Or even good practises. Blizzard is an example here, fueled by the resting on their laurels syndrome.
Nice post, you pretty much summed up the way I feel about current MMORPGs as well. However, I think that the single player games have been doing much better as far as immersion and imagination.
That is absolutely not true (i.e. "bullshit") - please don't overlook MUDs.
Honestly I only skimmed through the OP's initial post. The title told me all I needed to know about the OP's emo rant; so, I didn't waste my time reading it all.
"bloodsucking capitalist morons"
This implies that the OP is suggesting that capitalists are all greedy and with that, anyone who partakes in the practice of capitalism is evil and a "moron".
First off, it is not a crime to be successful and this agenda being pushed all of the globe that being wealthy is equal to being a mass murder is disgusting. Secondly, I would like to see a communist make a better MMORPG, the very idea of this is laughable; because it's hard to design a game using nothing but pencils and paper, if they can even afford that. Third, what you consider to be an ideal MMO is not what everyone else agrees with. "Oh, but some people on here agreed with me, so that must be everyone". No, the actual gaming majority is not here on these forums, they are actually playing their games, not here whining.
To sum this up; you get what you pay for, thus is the way of the capitalist system; so, with that in mind, the real moron would be the idiot consumer who payed for something they didn't even like to begin with. Fantasizing doesn't really make a product better and in the end the ones who end up having all the fun are the ones who have lower expectations when it comes to entertainment.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
Honestly I only skimmed through the OP's initial post. The title told me all I needed to know about the OP's emo rant; so, I didn't waste my time reading it all.
"bloodsucking capitalist morons"
This implies that the OP is suggesting that capitalists are all greedy and with that, anyone who partakes in the practice of capitalism is evil and a "moron".
First off, it is not a crime to be successful and this agenda being pushed all of the globe that being wealthy is equal to being a mass murder is disgusting. Secondly, I would like to see a communist make a better MMORPG, the very idea of this is laughable; because it's hard to design a game using nothing but pencils and paper, if they can even afford that. Third, what you consider to be an ideal MMO is not what everyone else agrees with. "Oh, but some people on here agreed with me, so that must be everyone". No, the actual gaming majority is not here on these forums, they are actually playing their games, not here whining.
To sum this up; you get what you pay for, thus is the way of the capitalist system; so, with that in mind, the real moron would be the idiot consumer who payed for something they didn't even like to begin with. Fantasizing doesn't really make a product better and in the end the ones who end up having all the fun are the ones who have lower expectations when it comes to entertainment.
Depends what kind of companies you talk about, if you talk about big cooperations, banks, oil companies or the financial sector than he is probably right. They are not just greedy they are blood suckers. Capitalism and some kind of free market, even if we really dont have it, is important but the speed capitalism is what destroyes ourself, better said the average people. Success can be a crime, depends how you achieve the success.
I said "Stop watching the Daily Show" in response to the idea that capitalism is the source of all problems in the world. It was a blanket statement to anyone who runs around with a "capitalism kills cute kittens" attitude that is usually based on what they are told to believe on television, comedic or not.
Maybe you should start watching the Daily Show, because it hardly acts like Capitalism is pure evil. That said, it doesn't act like capitalism is perfect either (because it isn't, which is why there are no purely capitalist countries).
Comments
Democracy is a terrible system also because it involves majority rule. Just because evryone believes it does not mean it is true. The PR campaign behind the second Iraq war should be enough to prove that. If not here is the PR firm that marketed it to us via mainstream media (NBC CBS ABC FOX CNN) , all of which employ numerous CIA agents (project paperclip)
http://www.rendon.com/about/
All isms are played out. If you understand how the system works, utilize it. Dont play the game if you dont like it. Criticising governments and economic philosophies are not going to do anything about crappy games. In fact, a great example would be China. Straight up communist country that pounds out MMORPG after mmorpg, how many quality games have come out of there that have been original?
Its the publishers that are to blame. Well what is a publisher? Basically it is an investment group. Their goal is low risk, high return. People dont invest if they dont want to make money. So if you care that much, purchase some stock, and if you have to, contact your proxy. If enough people raise a fuss it will hit their board meetings.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what kind of economy you have, there is gain. Whether it is individual gain, or community gain it is dictated by the ism. Do you think China is making all those games because they are bored?
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
The SWG crafting system is always a weird animal for me to discuss. The behind-the-scenes system of managing mats and manipulating stats on the items was like a dream for someone like me. On the other hand I found the implementation of the UI and the skill leveling system to be an unimaginative and derivate piece of crap.
In turn while WoW's behind-the-scenes crafting is quite dull, the UI and the skill leveling system was straightforward and intuitive. In fact I consider the simple addition of a 'Create All' button to be sheer genius compared to earlier MMOs I played.
I realise that my opinion on this is strongly affected by the fact that I have worked for years as a UI developer so for me brilliant behind-the-scenes designs are a dime-a-dozen while straightforward and intuitive UI systems are the 'holy grail'.
I concur, the general UI of SWG was great but the crafting one was really bad.
Now, more on the original topic, there's nothing new here. It's about money, period.
For example most of the great game designers, artists and devs I know don't want to be leads at all. That leaves the others in charge.
Think about it, for 2 minutes...
today's games suck, WoW keeps on going, even if it starts to suck, because its the biggest game and people say WoW, and when they do others know of the millions of subscribers...
but WoW will eventually die, not saying when or how, but it will die, get old, wear out......
Blizzard will probably introduce a new MMO, but im afraid it will be as retarded as WoW
see how greed affects the mind? you get your hands on some cash and they you start juicing 13year olds who get bullied in school and masturbate on female chars in-game, who make a pally and go aroun ranting how pro they are, because they cant tap two keys... O_O
^^
Probably same type of people going around various forums ranting how today's MMO suck and how retarded /input game or game developer here/ is...
i play WoW for the fun, i like both PvP and PvE, and such people who make pally's and stuff and claim they are pro or whatever, they just make my day.. i dont care if they beat me on a duel or in BG or arena... or while leveling.. its part of the game... i just hope pally's are nerfed in CATA... so every aspect of the game could be balanced again
so dont make stupid prejudices... oups! i dont care
do whatever you wanna do, you arent involved with me in any way ;D
^^
The following is kind of tongue in cheek roleplay interview but many elements are so true on many levels.
Big boss at the top reads papers, skims through applicants*
Stops, looks. Applicant #1 - Majors at C++ code and exellent software design, 98% in all classes is first. Has a love for games, and the people who play them*
Big bauss: Please come in good sir.
Applicant #1: Thank you, I am very honored that you have taken the time to view my request.
Big Bauss: But of course, your credentials are amazing, and you might have a great future here. There are a few preliminary questions though.
Applicant #1: Please, ask away.
Big Bauss: What is the most important thing in being part of a Gaming company?
Applicant #1: Well, to me, it's making enjoyable content that everyone can partake in. Creating a good relationship with the community is key to a successful game.
Big Boss then grabs a hankercheif, and dabs the sweat from his brow. Now standing, he goes to his window overlooking the city, and sighs. With a sudden burst of enthusiasm, he turns arond, and slams his hands on the table in front of the applicant*
Big Bauss: NO! It's about money, about making a game so addictive, and making the community wait so long, that they are forced to pay. People will always complain about it, people will always say we're bad for being so indifferent towards the community, and that we should just stop making games. They are angry, they dislike our way of doing things, they complain, they whine... Do you know what eventually happens!?
Applicant #1 is a bit taken back by this sudden change in his future employer. His mind is a confused mess, trying to fight his morals with the rationality of getting a job at the company. He decides to just calm down, and suck it up, so the the CEO looks favorably upon him.
Applicant #1: No sir, I don't.
Big Bauss: They SHUT UP. They eventually loos hope in trying to make a change, knowing we can just starve them out, or give them minor bribes to take away great majorities of their numbers. It is a numbers game after all, and there are 3 different kinds of people, can you name any of them?
Applicant #1: No sir, might you be able to explain them to me?
The Big Boss gets a sudden grin, and puts his chin up with pride*
Big Bauss: It is fortunate that you ask, I so happen to be an expert. Let's see, 3 kinds of people. Well, there are many obvious groups if you happen to check our forums. The most notable being the Revolutionaries, who's primary objective is to discredit our company, and what it does, in order for us to release our content faster, charge less money, and generally connect with the community. Their presense, although a nuissance, is also neccessary. As long as they think we're listening, and think we can change, they will never stand up to us in a way that makes a difference. They are by far the most important part of our operation.
Applicant #1 gets a bit fidgety*
Applicant #1: But isn't that a bit unethical? Don't the players know what they're doing?
The Big Bauss stares coldly at Applicant #1, then puts his hands on his desks and slides them forward towards the applicant*
Big Bauss: Ethics are not the issue here! The issue is making money, as it is in every game, as it will be in every game! And of course they don't know what we're doing, they are to naive to understnad the workings of the modern gaming industry, and the alterior motives behind our moves! Now, anything else?
Applicant #1 shifts awkwardly around in his chair, and looks down, sulking. Like a child without a present on crhistmas, his hopes were shot*
Applicant #1: ... And the other 2 types of people?
The Big Boss smiles again, knowing he is starting to win over the applicant. He relaxes and sit's casually in his chair, spinning around*
Big Bauss: The other 2 groups are small in number, but are of no inconvenience of us. Despite what we do, there is still a group that likes us, and has hope in us. Well... Actually almost everyone has hope that the game will get more content, hope that we'll be on time, but this group defends us. Heck, I think I should almost be paying them for what they do, but fortunately they're paying us. Most of these people are our cash shop buyers, remember to be nicer to them.
Applicant #1 is looking into his lap, defeated by the logic of the Big Bosses words*
Applicant #1: Yes, sir.
Big Bauss: Good. The third group, are the people who actually have the facts, who are not influenced by emotions, and absolutely despise our company. These people give others the numbers, but don't have the numbers themselves to make a change. These are the biggest threats to our operation. We rely on the emotional instability of many of our players to keep our game running smoothly. To keep them angry, to keep them waiting, and to keep them paying. If ever the sensible ones had any actual hold in this community, we might as well just give up on the game. There would be boycott's, riotous forums, and above all, a lower cash flow. People would stop hoping, and start knowing. Fortunately our forum moderators all have strict instruction to silence these perpetrators before people have a chance to digest what they're saying. Do you understand?
Applicant #1 seems uneasy, and almost physically sick from what he's hearing. But he knows he needs the work*
Applicant #1: But isn't it a bit shady to silence our own players for personal gain? Are there still any morals in this company?
The Big Boss again looks furious, and re-assus his 'In your face' position on the desk, but is showing a more tolerant, and almost understanding voice*
Big Bauss: Listen, I am not saying what we do isn't shady, but I am saying it is neccessary for our business. We need to keep what's needed silent, silent, and what's neccessary, necessary. It's how business works. And I will give you an example of how moralistic we truly are!
Applicant #1 looks up as if he'd heard an angel cry his name. A glimmer of hope had appeared in his eye, and he looked directly into the bosses eye's*
Big Bauss: We do update the game. Eventually, once we have squeezed every bit of money we could out of each tiny update, we do something major, and start the process again. We're not here to cuddle with them, we're here to make money.
Applicant #1 is shot down again. Then hesitantly looks up as if to say something, and then slumps back down. The Boss smiles again, and relaxes back into his chair*
Big Bauss: Well, from what I have told you, what is your objective as a game developer?
Applicant #1: To make money for the company.
Big Bauss: How do we stop nosey players from screwing up our immaculate system?
Applicant#1: Freeze their accounts.
Big Boss smiles, *
Big Bauss: I think you have a future here kid. Your first assignment as a new employee is to surpervise the Cash Shop/ Gold items. Anything worth gold you think we can make a profit off of, make it cash shop.
Applicant #1: Yes sir...
Applicant #1 gets up, and walks out of the room. Broken free of his previous beliefs, and ready to work at the money machine of the corporation*
The boss smiles, gets up out of his chair, and goes to a mini-fridge to get a martini glass filled with cherries. He then objectively walks over to the window of his office, and stares meaningfully at the city, with a grin on his face. He starts laughing to himself*
Big Bauss: Another one bites the dust... And from that dust, money will appear.
That's why there are laws against monopolies.
And even then in a situation like WOW, i'd say they got a pretty big share of the market, but, are they the only game in town? No, tons of people hate it, but the only reason they got there is because they put out a good product. And it wasn't "polished" at all when it came out it was a train wreck just like a ton of games are. t just came out when mmo's were still in their infancy and it was desent, not a lot of people knew what to expect it was new. It did well, and blizzard "then" were able to pump money into it and inovate to this day, if they didn't then they would loose a lot of that buisness.
Same as Eve, i played that at beta and release it wasn't "polished" either.
Capitalism Does breed innovation and Does breed Competition, but neither would Survive without Creativity.
So you get crap uninspired MMo's coming out like FF and they are going nowhere, Aion is doing alright, why?
Cause people like it. But was their launch "polished" No. They had to hop to it to keep that base, and they did, else they would tank.
If they let it get Stagnate, someone else who is being Creative and Innovative is going to come a long and pull that rug right from under them, by by.
Is any same person going to do it for free once someone gives em 10 bucks for it?? UH, NO. Would they be wise to just leave it as it is and say 10 bucks or work their buts off to make it better so they can collect more 10 dolar bills.
Look at the dude who made Minecraft, (probably got bored of playing warcraft) farted out that game in like a week, (so he says) .With 1996 graphics, if his site is telling the truth he's got 6-7 thousand people buying that game a day at 10 bucks a pop. Why?
It was free to start? Why charge? Is that even a question.
Cause it's something innovative, that people like, is it polished? hell no, it's frikin Alpha, the dudes rolling in 70k a DAY, for something he farted out in a week, that looks like stabbed poo that's still in ALPHA.
Capitalism baby, ... It's a shame i can only imagine your in college, the kind of social crap they are feeding kids these days,
walking contradictions, don't even know they are protesting against something for which they would not want to live without if you tried to pry it from their cold dead hands.
Do yourself a favor and drop out. Why would you need a college education if you hate corporations so much?
You plan to work for one do you not? Or maybe make your own buisness?
But you couldn't do that, that would make you a capitalist right?
Oh but you could be just half capatalist, and you know half against c
The truth is capitalism and mmorpgs have no causal effect on one another. It is simply a matter of low risk versuses high reward. Until you can prove that this new innovative idea is worth the risk, the only folks who will take this risk is indie develepors. As their successes continue to grow, we will beging to see mainstream publishers funding development for these projects. It has nothing to do with blood sucking capitalists, so much as it has to do with investors who want to make more money of their money...hence the word "investors". The difference between a WOW and a Darkfall is one has a know quantifiable return rate while one is similar to a craps table. I met a brilliant man once who simplified this concept and told me that the only way to innovate an mmorpg, is to eliminate the risk.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
This made me chuckle a bit. The first sentence completely contradicts the remainder of the paragraph. The paragraph is pretty naive overall, but at least it was amusing.
You seem to think that investors are only found in capitalism. Investors are a product of the free market.
You can have a complete capitalist economy existing with only private individuals.
You can have a complete socialist economy in which every citizen is invested in the means of production.
If you doubt that, please explain why and where that paragraph is cotradictory.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
I'm not defending one side or the other, so put down your Michael Moore plush and take it easy sweetheart.
I will reply to your entire mass of text with one simple answer to the only thing question you posed that actually applies to my post. I have no desire in replying to your hissy fit resulting from my throwing of a cog into your "all Star Trek is a communist block party gangbang machine."
"The greatest things in our history were done without incentive or profit."
Great things are done with and without incentive of profit, it's not exclusive to one or the other. Anyone who believes either way is equally as narrow minded as the other.
What you seem to have missed where I said "economics in the Star Trek universe."
If there were no replicators, it is obvious that there would be motivation to create and invent due to the incentive for monetary gain as well as to improve society. In that situation capitalism would have existed, and capitalism always provides more incentive to produce for individual gain in comparison to communism. Notice I said incentive to gain, not incentive to create. The incentive to create for the betterment of society is equal in either situation. Regardless, there are replicators and always have been replicators in Star Trek.
Therefore, there is no reason for anyone to create products in the movie for monetary gain as everything can be produced to specification by a replicator. Once you take away the demand for such production, what is then left is focus on invention and focus on the betterment of society. Neither of these ideas is exclusive to capitalism or communism, therefore neither one exists entirely in the Star Trek Universe. Star Trek is it's own utopian society, taking the good parts from each and focusing on going where no one has gone before, bettering what has never been bettered before.
I said "Stop watching the Daily Show" in response to the idea that capitalism is the source of all problems in the world. It was a blanket statement to anyone who runs around with a "capitalism kills cute kittens" attitude that is usually based on what they are told to believe on television, comedic or not.
Hurr durr
Durr hurr
Derp Derp Derp
Maybe you should start watching the Daily Show, because it hardly acts like Capitalism is pure evil. That said, it doesn't act like capitalism is perfect either (because it isn't, which is why there are no purely capitalist countries).
Only in the last years of my mmorpg exprience i did struggle with the ingame economical system a lot and was thinking about it, they offer the same disputable economic system like we have it already in the real world. I did wonder why they did not offer some kind of alternative economical systems in their games. The companies reflect the players ingame, running greedy after every gold and item...think about it.
Just had to say great post, spot on I've been thinking along the same lines. There are plenty of original deep games out there, as mentioned above, just find one and support it even if its has some faults.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Remarkable post, something i have had on my mind for a few years now. I've been meaning to articulate this at some point over the last few years but you have hit the mark OP. These are dark times for the gaming industry, as we notice every one jumping on the pay-to-play bandwagon, which only spells disaster for the future of the industry.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I thoroughly enjoyed your write up. Also, what you refer to can also be called a 'Skinners box', and it is the largest scam of humanity. It plays off our psycological behavior of repetition for a mechanically randomized chance of reward based on persistance.
The idea behind these new dungeons and grouping was a decent idea, basically... 'Force people to team up to fight evil', but it became more of a forced collaboration between total strangers. Every man is a loner in these 'groups'.
Hi. I haven't posted here in ages.. Anyway, I agreed with much of your post, as I'm an older gamer and grew up playing mostly great RPG games on pc's and other computer systems well before there was an internet, great console systems, etc. I've played countless/most MMO's, since their inception, and was a beta tester for a large number of the original ground-breaking MMO titles.
I've thought the PC game industry has been DEAD for YEARS, in general, and I'd really like to see someone argue with me. Most can't, as they weren't even born when I was playing some of the best games that ever existed, and so on. So without that experience, these people don't have the ability to really argue the point. I don't feel like arguing anyway.
Anyway, that being said... I would like you to post examples of many of things you said you wanted to see, the things you did not provide examples for. I was trying to figure out - exactly - what you meant when you said a game should have this or that, instead of what it has now. I'd like you to site other games as examples, like you did for a couple of points you made.
I don't agree with your competition sentiment (saying that there isn't enough of it), as I think that just brings out the worst in people, and there is TOO MUCH of it, especially with immature people, hiding behind their computers, acting like anti-social jerks, hoarding, stealing mobs, being greedy, etc. I think there's already a ton of "imaginary" competition already, that people create themselves, like trying to be the first person, group, guild, etc, that got a certain item, or get their entire guild (and help no one else) equipped with such items, being the first to hit certain levels, people owning/controlling certain areas (if the game allows, or even doesn't), people abusing bugs, exploits, the game economy (if it's not already ruined) to be better/stronger/faster/better equipped, etc., than their "opponents", either real or imagined, in addition to what might be in the game already. I also think there's plenty of competition in society already/real life, in education (in sports, social forms that people just invent - like popularity, etc), dating, people you compete with at work (that you don't want to, but they pretty much force you to), and so on. I don't want to go there...
I wish there were actually socially constructive events planned into the game engine that would be fun, require people to help each other, like mob town invasions, to cite just one example, instead of always making it about "winning"/killing each other (which is what most (or just about all) games come down to when they talk about competition). Many of you love it, but trust me, it gets realy old after a while, after the fun of blowing away your friends has passed. I did the whole FPS on-line stuff ages ago, and grew sick of how empty it was, same with player killing, as I didn't get any satisfaction of being a bully in real life, let alone online to people I don't even know.
Grief killing vs. real pvp.. there's a big difference. I rarely found a game where I wasn't constantly attacked by cowards/griefers/jerks, in a group, many levels higher than me, while I was alone, was already fighting a monster, at 1/2 or less health, and so on, just because the game "allowed" it, but there where no "honor points", or even any reward, in game, to killing me. People did it for really pathetic reasons, if you even can call those "reasons".
Games still come out today that allow mindless global player killing (some free mmo's), or "pvp" in quest areas, etc, which I'll never really understand, as it just doesn't make any sense, especially when it goes against what 95% of the players are actually doing in a certain area (like, they are questing/leveling, etc). I find "serial killers" in games and "murderers", if you want to parallel their tactics and such to say, real life, as opposed to players that want to compete on any kind of level playing ground, like in all those completely empty "arenas". Only found a small handful of games to have decently designed, hard to abuse, "pvp".
Anyway I'm rambling now about some things I hate, or have always hated about MMOs, interesting post though. Don't even get me started on "grinding", how it's like a 2nd job, boring/mindless, etc, and rare item hoarding/hunting, boss/mob stealing, and that garbage. At least WoW created instances to help avoid a lot of those problems... but I hear you on ppl just running them without even talking to anyone in the group, over and over again, just to get those ultra precious "items". That's a form of grinding too, actually.
First, I wasn't referring to new content regarding running servers. If you bothered to read my entire post, you would have realized that because I addressed content separately. As for customer service, staff, bug fixes, etc...all of that is done without monthly fees in other businesses and even other games with free multi-player servers (like say...SC2!, though there are hundreds of examples). Do you really pay no attention to any other business or game besides subscription-based MMOs, and hence think their charges make sense?
The only shred of an argument is GMs, but this is truly just an extension of regular customer service. If you look at the big games like WoW, then you'd know they certainly aren't sticking around in game to monitor anything. The fact that TOS violations regularly happen in general chat (best example are the stupid anal 'jokes') and zip happens unless you open a ticket which doesn't get responded to for 30-60 minutes makes it pretty clear that they aren't spending a bunch of cash on constant GM monitoring. I hear older games had some GM-run events, but anyone who can do a little arithmatic will quickly realize having someone do that now and then is still a tiny fraction of 15 bucks each month.
Now, like I said, of course content costs money, but when you are paying for 3-4 retail games per year (which is more like 6 or 7 games when you take into account there is no store taking a cut of the profits) and you don't even get 1 game of content added, then pretending it is justified is quite laughable.
The only person naive here is you. 15 bucks a month IS a ripoff. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.
Pretty much agree. Generally speaking MMO dev departments seem to be staffed with juveniles incapable of higher thought processes in regards to competition and challenging/immersive game play.
Or even good practises. Blizzard is an example here, fueled by the resting on their laurels syndrome.
Wherever you go, there you are.
That is absolutely not true (i.e. "bullshit") - please don't overlook MUDs.
Now playing: MUDs
Waiting on: Nothing
Honestly I only skimmed through the OP's initial post. The title told me all I needed to know about the OP's emo rant; so, I didn't waste my time reading it all.
"bloodsucking capitalist morons"
This implies that the OP is suggesting that capitalists are all greedy and with that, anyone who partakes in the practice of capitalism is evil and a "moron".
First off, it is not a crime to be successful and this agenda being pushed all of the globe that being wealthy is equal to being a mass murder is disgusting. Secondly, I would like to see a communist make a better MMORPG, the very idea of this is laughable; because it's hard to design a game using nothing but pencils and paper, if they can even afford that. Third, what you consider to be an ideal MMO is not what everyone else agrees with. "Oh, but some people on here agreed with me, so that must be everyone". No, the actual gaming majority is not here on these forums, they are actually playing their games, not here whining.
To sum this up; you get what you pay for, thus is the way of the capitalist system; so, with that in mind, the real moron would be the idiot consumer who payed for something they didn't even like to begin with. Fantasizing doesn't really make a product better and in the end the ones who end up having all the fun are the ones who have lower expectations when it comes to entertainment.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
Depends what kind of companies you talk about, if you talk about big cooperations, banks, oil companies or the financial sector than he is probably right. They are not just greedy they are blood suckers. Capitalism and some kind of free market, even if we really dont have it, is important but the speed capitalism is what destroyes ourself, better said the average people. Success can be a crime, depends how you achieve the success.
I do watch the Daily Show.