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MMOs are now produced by bloodsucking capitalist morons

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by 9216544
    I'm deluded...

    Yes, you are deluded. They are indeed in control of their playing habits. It is you implying they are not because the habits of majority are not what your habits are.

    Being a minority gives often a false impression of importance but in fact, you are just a minority...

  • twruletwrule Member Posts: 1,251

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by 9216544

    I'm deluded...




     

    Yes, you are deluded. They are indeed in control of their playing habits. It is you implying they are not because the habits of majority are not what your habits are.

    Being a minority gives often a false impression of importance but in fact, you are just a minority...

    Ironic that you were stressing rational thinking when you smack him with a giant ad populum fallacy.

  • oramiooramio Member Posts: 121

    If the companies are earning money from the games, you cannot call a capitalist company or their officers as morons. A company is not there to serve the community, their sole reason for existence is earning money. That's how capitalism works.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by twrule

    Ironic that you were stressing rational thinking when you smack him with a giant ad populum fallacy.

    No.

  • 92165449216544 Member Posts: 1,904

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by twrule



    Ironic that you were stressing rational thinking when you smack him with a giant ad populum fallacy.




     

    No.

    Then please explain why the current trends in MMO design are justifiable.

  • sultharsulthar Member Posts: 298

    OP is sure less greedy than the MMO producers.

  • DataDayDataDay Member UncommonPosts: 1,538

    Originally posted by 9216544

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by twrule



    Ironic that you were stressing rational thinking when you smack him with a giant ad populum fallacy.





     

    No.

    Then please explain why the current trends in MMO design are justifiable.

    Then please explain why they are not? and how you would REALISTICALLY design them otherwise? Give detailed examples with games as reference. While you are at it, young one, explain what all that has to do, logically, with your objective claim regarding "blood sucking capitalist morons"?

    Finally, explain how and why you feel entitled to such PRODUCTS? Try to make it logical and rational, even though you despise rationality and logic, since they do not seem to be your friends (by your own admission).

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by 9216544

    Then please explain why the current trends in MMO design are justifiable.

    I don't understand what I am supposed to explain...'justifiable' - what is that supposed to mean?

    The only way MMO should be is what the demand is for, that is what is shaping them. Demand is hard to grasp, uneasy to define and carry into effective product or service.

  • 92165449216544 Member Posts: 1,904

    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    Originally posted by 9216544


    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by twrule



    Ironic that you were stressing rational thinking when you smack him with a giant ad populum fallacy.





     

    No.

    Then please explain why the current trends in MMO design are justifiable.

    Then please explain why they are not? and how you would REALISTICALLY design them otherwise? Give detailed examples with games as reference. While you are at it, young one, explain what all that has to do, logically, with your objective claim regarding "blood sucking capitalist morons"?

    Finally, explain how and why you feel entitled to such PRODUCTS? Try to make it logical and rational, even though you despise rationality and logic, since they do not seem to be your friends (by your own admission).

    If you want my response, then read what I said to you earlier and reply to that.


    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by 9216544



    Then please explain why the current trends in MMO design are justifiable.




     

    I don't understand what I am supposed to explain...'justifiable' - what is that supposed to mean?

    The only way MMO should be is what the demand is for, that is what is shaping them. Demand is hard to grasp, uneasy to define and carry into effective product or service.

    So anything that is demanded in a market is passable? Ugh. I feel like this type of arguements is going to bring in too many subjects that are beyond the proximity of this thread.

    But in short... Yeah I guess I'm the minority and my opinion doesn't count. But by jesus, thank god.

  • CujoSWAoACujoSWAoA Member UncommonPosts: 1,781

    thats what you get when you get a game that garners 12 million + subscribers.

    MMORPGs never should've exceeded 400k playerbases... they would've been great by now, instead of being what they ARE now.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by 9216544

    So anything that is demanded in a market is passable? Ugh. I feel like this type of arguements is going to bring in too many subjects that are beyond the proximity of this thread.
    But in short... Yeah I guess I'm the minority and my opinion doesn't count. But by jesus, thank god.

    Again...what is 'passable' supposed to mean? Avoid using subjective terms when you are explaining your opinions and want to be understood.

  • 92165449216544 Member Posts: 1,904

    Originally posted by Rabenwolf

    Originally posted by 9216544


    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by twrule



    Ironic that you were stressing rational thinking when you smack him with a giant ad populum fallacy.





     

    No.

    Then please explain why the current trends in MMO design are justifiable.

    Then please explain why they are not? and how you would REALISTICALLY design them otherwise? Give detailed examples with games as reference. While you are at it, young one, explain what all that has to do, logically, with your objective claim regarding "blood sucking capitalist morons"?

    Finally, explain how and why you feel entitled to such PRODUCTS? Try to make it logical and rational, even though you despise rationality and logic, since they do not seem to be your friends (by your own admission).

    Argh, just because how perverse your assumptions are I will reply to the later part. 

    Following a method of supposed rational thought does not guarentee one will ascertain knowledge. What we assume to be causation is often flawed and perceived subjectively by the observer. We have a tendency as westerners to believe that because the scientific method has yielded so many proven observatoins about the external world, that the same should go for human affairs relating to social theory, ethics, art, media, etc. The only thing that we can understand in relation to human behavior is entirely subjective and depends on what perspective is taken.

    So, if your perspective is based upon the ability for companies to make money, then you need to find the best possible way for that to happen. If your perspective is from an ethical approach, then you need to see how developers are treating their players and what effects online gaming has on them. If you are taking an aesthetic approach, you need to look at what the game mechanics offer in terms of creativity.

    I am taking an ethical and aesthetic approach to what is going on the the MMO world. You seem to be coming from a perspective of feasibility within gaming. The other dude seems to be coming from a belief that what is demanded by the masses is justifiable for that reason alone.

    As it will be stated a thousand times, we each have our own opinions on online gaming. I decided to share mine, and yes it was quite rhetorical, which I am not ashamed of. This is a forum, which is a tool for allowing people to voice their concerns and opinions on an interest. We aren't speaking global politics right now.

    Now, where does the line between subjective and objective opinion begin to take more importance? In relation to science, ethics in large scale terms, and maybe meta physics if it is even possible to get anything useful from that school.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by 9216544
    We have a tendency as westerners to believe that because the scientific method has yielded so many proven observatoins about the external world, that the same should go for human affairs relating to social theory, ethics, art, media, etc. The only thing that we can understand in relation to human behavior is entirely subjective and depends on what perspective is taken.

    Only this part of your post makes some sense. Yes, western world is polluted by pseudo-sciences such as psychology but you make same error here.

    Neuroscience can make measurable observation about how human brain works such as can tell the revenue of the company how well they are satisfying customer needs. That still does not mean neuroscience is explaining human behavior nor does it mean the company can clearly define what makes their product so popular among customers.

  • 92165449216544 Member Posts: 1,904

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by 9216544



    So anything that is demanded in a market is passable? Ugh. I feel like this type of arguements is going to bring in too many subjects that are beyond the proximity of this thread.

    But in short... Yeah I guess I'm the minority and my opinion doesn't count. But by jesus, thank god.




     

    Again...what is 'passable' supposed to mean? Avoid using subjective terms when you are explaining your opinions and want to be understood.

    From what I understand, you believe that standards in MMO gaming depend purely on what the masses demand. Which, generally means the lowest common denominator as there is no individual named "majority' who can tell you everything he wants in a game.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by 9216544

    From what I understand, you believe that standards in MMO gaming depend purely on what the masses demand. Which, generally means the lowest common denominator as there is no individual named "majority' who can tell you everything he wants in a game.

    While I do not agree with explicit implications you make here, I agree with sense of what you are writing.


  • 92165449216544 Member Posts: 1,904

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by 9216544

    We have a tendency as westerners to believe that because the scientific method has yielded so many proven observatoins about the external world, that the same should go for human affairs relating to social theory, ethics, art, media, etc. The only thing that we can understand in relation to human behavior is entirely subjective and depends on what perspective is taken.



     

    Only this part of your post makes some sense. Yes, western world is polluted by pseudo-sciences such as psychology but you make same error here.

    Neuroscience can make measurable observation about how human brain works such as can tell the revenue of the company how well they are satisfying customer needs. That still does not mean neuroscience is explaining human behavior nor does it mean the company can clearly define what makes their product so popular among customers.

    I'm not sure what you are getting at due to your broken english, but...

    I am personally very intrigued by neuroscience. I do believe that there is no distinction between the brain and the mind; they are one. But neuropsychology will only be able to go as far as to tell what parts of the brain are active, what areas of the brain are creating positive emotions or sensations, any deficiencies in neurochemicals, neurological pathways in relation to memory and craving, etc.

    None if this does any good in telling us humans what is a beneficial way to live life. If all of our basic needs are satisfied consistently, then we should hook ourselves up to monitors and brain probes that ensure we are in a constant state of minimal pleasure. There are plenty of dystopic novels/films about this state of human existence.

    When we view video games in this perspective, it is difficult to justify how designing games in such a manner is a positive thing in any other light than capital gain. By offering players minimal amounts of meaningful social communication, personal creativity, feelings of worth, feelings of accomplishment, aesthetic enjoyment through play, etc., we are placing the player in a state of constant need towards the game being played. The individual withdraws from the real world and enters an existence of virtual hypnosis where his/her emotions have become minimalized to basic impulses.

    Do I need to even suggest why this is a negative thing?

    I'm not saying that all 12 million subscribers of WoW are brainwashed, they're not. But many of them are being taken advantage of without their awareness. It's a subtle process. Have you not had any friends, or even yourself, who have felt more desire to acquire loot or status in a virtual world over their own?

  • 92165449216544 Member Posts: 1,904

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by 9216544



    From what I understand, you believe that standards in MMO gaming depend purely on what the masses demand. Which, generally means the lowest common denominator as there is no individual named "majority' who can tell you everything he wants in a game.




     

    While I do not agree with explicit implications you make here, I agree with sense of what you are writing.

     

    Hey, it's 3:30 am here. I'm going to bed lol. Hope I clarified my opinion better. I didn't finish the last post as I'm too tired.

  • Germaximus_SGermaximus_S Member UncommonPosts: 1,061

    Good post OP.

    Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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  • trembulanttrembulant Member Posts: 101

    Originally posted by 9216544

    It would be hard to write this post without bringing up Blizzard, World of Warcraft, and the effect it has had on the online game industry, something that everyone here knows. I used to have respect for Blizzard for being able to maintain superiority in producing a fun, immersive game. Now, my mind has changed. Cataclysm's dungeons are going to be even more linear. They are revamping dungeons by removing various nonessential wings. What happened to the enjoyment of exploring dungeons through a feeling of risk?



    I resubbed WoW to play through WotLK. I did two years after the expansion had come out. Playing my 80 priest through the dungeon finder was a seriously disturbing experience. Every group pushes through 5 man heroics as fast as possible. They have all seem the bosses, know all of the loot, and only do it for badges and now for justice points. No one talks to one another, they have no patience if someone needs to take a piss or needs to know the strategy for the boss, or anything. People are running these dungeons purely for the small amount of badges they will receive to buy loot that will be useless in the next patch (let alone the next expansion.) So this brings me to my next point:



    Go take a look at any game developer conference and look at what classes they are offering. You will not notice an emphasis on positive game design through ingenuity, rather, the focus is upon how to maintain a grind without making it feel like one, cognitive psychology in players (this scares the shit out of me), marketing models, the new intrigue in item shops and f2p models, and other crap that is solely for the purpose of making money and increasing subscribers.

     

     

    Um Yeah...it's called buisness.

    I actually asked my friend about that recently who has played WOW everyday since it's release, i asked because i played casually at first and then again with WOTLK i don't last long, i usually  just end up leveling then i get bored as i just like to check ou the world design moneters ect, it's just fun for me in that aspect, i'm not die hard.

    But his guild is up there with the top guys always has been and when i'd do runs woth them, they just burn thru suff like it's nothing, and i told him that it bores me plus they are al so epiced out all i get to do is just follow them around.

    But he said they like that, they just like to go in and destroy stuff and they will do it over and over - even if they aren't getting an loot or anything worthy out of it, he said it's just fun.

    So yeah, i guess Blizzard is doing something right as it's not stoping them from playing for 5 years - he hid say t's was more casual friendy of a game, but when they are doing the realy high epic dungeons ect as a guild it's not quite that simple and offers enough of a challenge at least for a while to also feed that desire for achievement as well.

    I think i believe the same way you do about it, however i also think a lot of it has to do with the fact, your just bored of video games and MMO's in particualr - i know i am, if you think about it they were always the same type of thing, just once you got used to the fornula it bores you - time for a new hobby.

    Not like i don't check around and watch upcomming games in hope for something to strike my fancy, but i usually just let them pass by.

    I don't mind a good dungeon runner type game for casual play and fun it's all good too if it's done well.

    Just something to pass the time - i acutally like leveling in games for than anything, even tho i know theres end game ect, once i max level i kind get bored of it. For me if the game just had an ending there it be fine for me.

    If you want something that's gonna suck up all your free time and keep you up and having to read wiki and uber geek forum posts and formulas and guides and challenge your math skils go play  EVE, lol.

     

    Wow is doing it right - EQ seems to be doing it right, LOTR too  from what i've seen, never played LOTR but watched people play it, it seems fairly immersive, EQ2 i don't like but it seems to have depth to it.

    As long as people are playing the games in their current state developers are going to keep doing the same thing, you have the option to not pick up every mmo that comes along and then go into forums and bitch about how you thought it should be.

     

    Most likley the games you are looking for are going to be small self developed games with crap graphics due to one guy with no budget coding the thing, but it will prbably be more from the gamer perspective.

     

    Case in point same friend right now is hooked on Minecraft while he's not playing WOW  it's all he's been playing.

    I guarantee you tho when the WOW expansion comes out he won't be playing that game anymore, lol, ill go so what happen to minecraft and he'll be like whatcraft?

     

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by 9216544
    I'm not sure what you are getting at due to your broken english, but...

    Hey, how is my English broken there? :)

    The difference between me and you is that I am not suggesting there is anything as 'negative thing', I simply let people vote with their wallets regardless my own opinion.
    Because:


    Originally posted by 9216544

    I want to think that players are in control of their playing habits

    You are doing just the opposite - you assume that people are unable to decide what is 'good' for them. And considering your op and opinion, I guess you know better...

    Is it so difficult to respect that some people actually want something else than you and do not call it a 'negative thing'?

  • mrw0lfmrw0lf Member Posts: 2,269

    Originally posted by Gdemami

    The only way MMO should be is what the demand is for, that is what is shaping them. Demand is hard to grasp, uneasy to define and carry into effective product or service.

    That isn't how it works at all. Demand signifies what people think they want, it may not in practice be what they were looking for and may not be applicable within all context of specific game mechanics and by and large is rarely ever actually materialised due to time/budget constraints.

    No, people may have demands but they certainly do not drive the direction of markets or this genre that is just a myth. The market is driven by profitability and they are not the same thing, not by a long, long way.

    For instance, hyperthetically; give me a hundred billion dollars I'll make you an mmo that everyone 'demands', genuinely everyone who plays mmo's will play this game. But I can hear you already thinking, wait a minute $100bn thats quite a bit of money there, how will I get my return? Can't we cut that by half? Well sure we can but only half the people will play, we go on and on like this for a while and now you're looking at a 1% market share for a few million and we're onto little tricks we could use to get those extra few bucks out of every punter which will make all the difference. However we end up at this point, we are a looong way from what the gamers' demands are.

    Then once you add in all the details and payment plans you are so far from demand and it is alll about the profit margin.

    -----
    “The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.”

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by mrw0lf

    The market is driven by profitability and they are not the same thing, not by a long, long way.

    First comes demand, then comes supply and after that comes profit.

    There is no profit without a demand.

    Your example is invalid because you incorrectly assume that you need 100 bills to make a MMO that with be played genuinely by everyone and that somehow budget is directly affecting how many people will play the game.

    From the sense of what you say it explains why certain games are not doing well only. Because that is when production and maintenance costs are pushed to the limits - when demand is low.

    You answered the question why there are no more Ultimas and why Darkfall is dying - because such projects are simply not profitable.

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404

    All this veiled attempts to try to show you are superior because you have better taste than what is offered currently. Such arrogance really is so comical. What you honestly think that what is popular is catering to the common denominator and therefore inferior by that definition of being common ? You think what you want in games these days is so special and grand it should be considered and made because it is an awesome game if it ever was made.

     

    I suppose we all have an inflated view of what our taste are. We feel proud that we have supported some poor indy company in their production because it showed we were above the unwashed masses. I guess it would follow that what we like is a cut above others because after all how can we be so crass as to like what the masses do.

     

    Yes this is the main problem I see on these boards people having an inflated opinion of themselves and snidely suggesting that if you happen to enjoy WoW you are one of those unwashed and does not know better masses that are responsible for the current state of this genre. 

     

    I think it is time to get off those high horses and come down from that rarified air and realise we play games because we enjoy them . Things are popular not because it is a McDonalds' syndrome but that it is genuinely fun.

     

    Have fun though with your 'I am the minority that have superior taste and interest'  complex. I will go join the masses.

    Garrus Signature
  • EladiEladi Member UncommonPosts: 1,145

    Only saw the title havent read a single reply.

    Fact: The entire enterainment industrie is based on money. games , movies, music 90% of it is in hands on the same group of investors.

     

    sometimes a new house will make its way to succes and then after a while its solds to the big boys.

    Unless you invent someting that would instandly force the world to change this will always be the case.

     

    you got no vote, you only mather as a group.

  • mrw0lfmrw0lf Member Posts: 2,269

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by mrw0lf



    The market is driven by profitability and they are not the same thing, not by a long, long way.




    First comes demand, then comes supply and after that comes profit.

    No, the supply and demand only applies to the product, in this case being MMO's. We are already aware of the demand for MMO's we are discussing their supply and implementation to that demand.

    My quote above is regarding the MMO market, different markets have different key drivers. My point was that for MMO's the main motivation has become profit (and this is often the case where the nature of the product allows it).

    There is no profit without a demand.

    The demand for the product is established, the discussion is about it's 'flavour' and how those key distinctions have now become driven by profit over the wants of the gamer.

    Your example is invalid because you incorrectly assume that you need 100 bills to make a MMO that with be played genuinely by everyone and that somehow budget is directly affecting how many people will play the game.

    The example isn't invalid it was hyperthetical. We are not analysing data we are theorising on the nature of  the direction of MMO's. The most logical way to make examples and see their impact is by exagurations by looking at the most extreme cases. Do I know how much it would cost to make an mmo which would please the whole of the mmo community, no, but I doubt anyone really does and it's not the point anyway.

    However budget does directly effect market share in a vast number of ways. Why do you think prior to release companies are so tight lipped about their games. They know that when they announce their game they have a massive pottential audience for it, that is the point of their maximum potential population percetage from the audience which is aware of it. From that point each new piece of information they release slowly reduces that initial pool. PVP/no PVP, ffa/consent, sandbox/themepark. This why games try to be all things to all people during the marketing stage and why there is so much rage on forums after the reality becomes clear. The example was to present a game which genuinely was all those things at once and to show how that changes once the profit margin comes into it.

    From the sense of what you say it explains why certain games are not doing well only. Because that is when production and maintenance costs are pushed to the limits - when demand is low.

    You answered the question why there are no more Ultimas and why Darkfall is dying - because such projects are simply not profitable.

    Agreed, but it also explains why games which may not be doing so well are going f2p and why even the games which do well on subsription are also adding micro payments aswell.

    Look, I'm not an economist, but I know what I have observed over the years.

    -----
    “The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.”

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