To start, I am not involved in the video game industry and have only consumed these products for roughly eight years. ...
That's the end of my rant. ...
Nice rant here. Oh, don't understand me wrong, I fully agree with you and share your complaints. I haven't been subscribed to any AAA MMORPG title since years - quite the opposite, I almost enjoy following how they seemingly produce only trainwrecks lately.
It's almost as if they are so hard trying to produce the next mega-hit that they're almost guaranteed to miss their target by a long shot, or rather several parsecs at least. Granted, the earlier developers had it more easy in a way, they had a much more homogeneous fanbase in the old days.
Today, they not only have to appease the RPG veteran, they also want the casual achievers as subscribers ("I want to login for an hour or two and achieve something") and don't forget the PvP crowd that would be playing their FPS or RTS games otherwise ("I want to login and go straight to the action"). Of course the entertainment companies want that money too.
Thus they all try to satisfy almost everybody, in the end satisfying noone of course. And that's why they're morons, these "bloodsucking capitalist" ones from your thread. If they would try to develop games for narrower target markets they might actually make a dollar with their games instead of producing a long string of underachieving titles.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I have faith in the genre still. Games like Arche Age keep the flame glowing. And even games like WoW still retain the core elements of why we fell in love with mmos in the first place. The worst thing you can do is become cynical because when that happens, you only have yourself to blame for your unhappiness. Virtual world or not, mmos exist because of communities of players converging on a theme. The irony is that the most important aspect of mmos is also the one thing that is under complete control of the players.
Agreed. I've pretty much given up on the idea that we ever see something with depth like DAoC and EQ used to be.
GW2 is pretty much my last hope. If that is a dud, too, then I'm pretty much done with MMOs. I haven't even touched an MMO in quite some time, and its been even longer since I enjoyed one.
As in everything else in life, the most popular things, are usually those that appeal to mass market (IQ 100, or whatever parameter you choose).
No MMO since WOW has come close to having any appeal to the mass market in the US. They've been complete duds. WAR, AOC, Vanguard, DDO, EQ2, etc have not lived up to hype or are remotely popular(granted DDO has had a massive resurgence since its f2p). Its sad when the second most popular game in the US is LOTRO, which had to go f2p to survive. What do all those games have in common, sans DDO? They tried to "appeal to the masses" aka dumbing things down. Not seeing how those are popular games, yet the were designed for people who are entertained by watching grass grow.
The OP is 100% spot on that MMOS suck(not sure what a bloodsucking capitalist has do with it, since without capitalism MMOs, personal computers and the internet would not exist). MMOs are terrible, and the advent of f2p to hook the teens and tweens is going to make it worse.
Maybe those 8 years you spent behind the computer were not good for you and if you are quitting playing games now, you might start to see the world surrounding you in some more realistic scope.
Good luck and all best.
I see these types of responses all the time, and they never fail to annoy the crap out of me. At what point does "I played MMOs for 8 years" automatically turn into "I played MMOs for 8 straight years without leaving the house, socializing outside the MMO, going to work, bathing, or even walking away to take a piss."
It's just a troll comment, even if concealed by an attempt at politeness. It's a ridiculous, presumptive, absurd response that no gamer should ever use as all it does is reinforce fictional stereotypes and add nothing to the conversation.
"MMOs are now produced by bloodsucking capitalist morons"
The title of this thread is completely idiotic. MMO's have always been designed to make money when did this aspect ever with MMO's? Answer: NEVER.
When did a great socialist/communist government made MMO ever exist to parallel the title of this thread which is just nothing more then "Rant Mode" drivel?
There are MMO's that fit almost every play style on the market right now. If you OP can't find one that you like then maybe you should make the effort to create one. Otherwise people will play what they like and stomping your feet because some niche FFA PVP, sandbox bore fest of a MMO (of which 99.9% of sane people may not like) has shut down is completely childish and about as productive as shouting into the wind, "Why don't people like my scattastic view on game play enough to play with me??".
The thread title may be irrelevant, but you clearly misunderstood the OP's argument. He was arguing that games produced now lack creative elements, not that they lack any particular mechanical feature. That's a valid argument even if we might all disagree on whether old school games were creative or not.
Originally posted by twrule That's a valid argument
No, it is no argument nor it is valid. It is an opinion based on subjective perception of the poster.
He basically says that the games are not what he expect or want them to be thus they are worthless and everyone who produce or plays them are <input derogative term here>....
Therefore, they will not spare creative imagination.
In propositional logic form:
P -> ~Q
P
----------
~Q
That's modus ponens, a valid form of argument (valid meaning that the conclusion follows necessarily from the premises, given that they are true). If you want to argue whether it's a sound argument (whether the premises are true or false), then that's something different.
This is basically what happens when a single market has rapid growth over the course of a decade. The video gaming industry has exploded in the last several years, with a lot of the social stigma that has surrounded video gaming in the past having dissipated. Gaming used to be considered "geeky" or something that only young tubby children played, but now that it has become more accepted by society, there is suddenly a lot more people out there who will partake in the activity. Investors start seeing dollar signs, want a greater exposure, and push the developers to produce games that any idiot who doesn't even have a high school education would be able to understand and possibly even do good at.
Ah crap, better stop there before I really start rambling. Basically.... its all about money. It always has been. Always will be.
My bet is that the 12 million subscribers of WoW aren't really even enjoying the game, they are rather not interested enough with their real lives and are seeking some form of accomplishment through gathering gold and items.
I think there is something seriously ethically wrong about the way developers are designing games, and I think that we as the players need to speak up and not act like mice or sheep. Online games should enhance the creative aspects of the individual, and the desire to experience fantasy-like elements with others in a virtual world. They should be about the competition we cannot enjoy in real life, through a playful manner, but also stimulate the collaborative aspects that we as a species can act upon.
The blue: OP lost the bet. What kind of a personality can speak for "12 million subscribers".
The yellow: No one forces him to play any MMORPG as a dungeon crawler. The playful manner resides within the player who picks what he wants to play. Typical the OP picks out one element of MMO games that all offer a multitude of options to play.
It shows such persons are stuck in old designs that were left behind and have been surpassed by newer and better choices without losing a lifetime in search for fun.
Originally posted by twrule If current mmorpgs are designed only to appeal to base human psychological tendencies, then they will not spark creative imagination. Current mmorpgs are designed only to appeal to base human psychological tendencies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Therefore, they will not spare creative imagination.
Don't blame the Dev's blame the current generation of gamer. They simply want it all now with as little time and effort involved. The term Risk VS Reward makes their little heads hurt and a Death Penalty that is something more than a free teleport to town is just too much for them.
I simply wish some developer would take EQ and make it new BEFORE the days of Auction Houses and Portal Stones. EQ was simply perfect as far as Immersion goes and Risk VS Reward. Same goes for WOW. It was a great game prior to The Burning Crusade. This is where WOW took a seriousl turn for the worst.
Like the OP stated, Developers today don't care about immersion. They have found the power of the casual game and tThey simply want subscribers and they don't even care if you play just as long as you're subscribed. Thus they make what the MASS wants which is basically Farmville type of play and then roll that into an MMO. There is no more loyalty to their dedicated players like their use to be. They simply don't care.
There is simply no rason a developer can't make an updated EQ. One without fast travel, Auction Houses and instances and letting the players figure out to haggle their wears. Todays gamers just don't understand what it was like to zone into the Eastern Commons and see all the spam. The fun in haggling over gear and trading with others online. They are so use to the bland Auction House window and don't know any better. They don't have the slightest clue what it is like to be in a dungeon that ANYONE can be in. They are so used to their own little private instance. They have no clue what it is like to have someone KS you. Sure it sucked but it is IMMERSIVE! That was YOUR target and they had no right!!! Again, it sucked but it was part of the game. In EQ if you got known as a KSer it actually hurt your reputation on the server and you would get blacklisted from groups and guilds because of it. EQ was a WORLD and we LIVED in it. MMOs of today are a F'ing joke Immersion wise.
And before you ask why I don't play EQ. Because it too fell to the Subscribers are more important than the dedicated players. Planes of Power pretty much ruined the game for me. It changed what we knew of EQ and it went downhill from there. SOE is not one of my best friends nor is Brad. They sold out and are responsable for starting this trend if you ask me. SOE is NOT innovative in the MMO world but they were in the "How to squeeze as much money out that we can as cheap as possible" world.
Therefore, they will not spare creative imagination.
Circular reasoning does not make a valid argument
However, this isn't an exercise in formal logic.
It's not circular reasoning if he provides evidence for it, which he did...and that's still a valid form of argument by definition regardless. You are going to claim that the OP isn't making an argument and then say logic need not apply? I'm just going to leave you with this:
Don't blame the Dev's blame the current generation of gamer. They simply want it all now with as little time and effort involved. The term Risk VS Reward makes their little heads hurt and a Death Penalty that is something more than a free teleport to town is just too much for them.
It isn't that simple. People will play what devs make because they don't have much of a choice, while devs are trying to make the game they think the players will like.
But the problem is that devs seems to think all players want to play Wow 2,0.
What we need is devs that makes games they will want to play. That is how EQ got created and Wow for that matter. The earliest games were made by gamers for gamers. Today is games more or less drawn up by suits like EA and Activision who tries to figure out what will sell best, they are not trying to make the game they themselves want to play anymore.
All devs who make a game they want to play will not succeed but some will. And if the devs have free hands they will create more diverse games, instead of just stealing eachothers ideas and rehashing the same game over and over.
I think the games create the players, not so much the other way around even if whining on forum affects the games and so does certain play styles.
My bet is that the 12 million subscribers of WoW aren't really even enjoying the game, they are rather not interested enough with their real lives and are seeking some form of accomplishment through gathering gold and items.
I think there is something seriously ethically wrong about the way developers are designing games, and I think that we as the players need to speak up and not act like mice or sheep. Online games should enhance the creative aspects of the individual, and the desire to experience fantasy-like elements with others in a virtual world. They should be about the competition we cannot enjoy in real life, through a playful manner, but also stimulate the collaborative aspects that we as a species can act upon.
The blue: OP lost the bet. What kind of a personality can speak for "12 million subscribers".
Well I'm sure he can't speak for all 12 million but I think he can speak for the general enjoyment of the MMO concept in its current incarnation. MMOs are now designed to follow the concept of a dog getting a treat for doing a trick.
Do you think the dog enjoys doing the trick? Or is he just doing it for the treat?
I often find myself doing things I don't find fun in MMOs just for some shiny reward and I have to steer myself away from them with some difficulty. Hell the fact that anyone ever talks of 'grind' proves how prevalent this mechanic is in MMOs. The games target a subconcious desire of the human mind to be praised for things, even if they gain no pleasure in performing the task. The majority of people playing MMOs likely aren't enjoying them... but they continue to play anyway in order to be praised and rewarded over and over again.
How many people do you know who moan about grinding dailies in WoW? About how dull crafting is? About how repetitive instances are? Yet they continue to play... The reason people rush through instances is further proof of this concept; the content itself is not fun, they're just doing it for the rewards. It may be fun once or twice but after the novelty of new content wears off it's just a grind.
Older MMOs used to balance this with community features as other players could make the game many times more dynamic than the developers ever could with static content. Modern MMOs have pretty much gutted social features though in their 'streamlining' for the lowest common denominator...
More posts about how MY OPINION on the perfect game should be true! I don't hold it against someone that they want to play a particular type of game, but to consider it the epitome of game design because YOU liked it, is foolish. Go and support whatever you find most appropriate for your style. Because if you can't convince a company they are going to do decently with your particular niche, you aren't going to see much for it.
Personally, nostalgia trumps a lot of other things. I know that I watched a lot of friends playing EQ and UO, and that convinced me to ignore MMOs totally for four or so years.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
Then all the other bandwagon companies followed.
Why do you think we haven't seen ANY innovation in the genre in the last 5 years, outside of indie companies?
MMORPGs are no longer social virtual worlds created by devoted game fans, they're just copy and pasted EQ clones dumbed down for the Farmvile masses.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
Originally posted by 9216544 To start, I am not involved in the video game industry and have only consumed these products for roughly eight years. Maybe this is not news any longer, and maybe I've been a moron myself for consistently hoping that newly developed mmorpgs are actually going to be worth something, but I think it's about time I take a leave from MMOs or video games entirely.
Modern mmo's have nothing to do with imagination, immersiveness, ingenuity, creativity, aesthetic appeal, or anything. They have become streamlined bullshit that is solely consisted of the most repetitious actives targeting the weakest aspects of human behavior. In looking at recent online games like Warhammer, WoW, STO, EQ2, Aion, FFXIV, etc, it appears that all these games boast is increased accessibility in character customization, repetitive dungeons, riskless PvP, boring quests and other gameplay mechanics that do little for the human imagination. They offer shiny graphics but absolutely no substance. Community aspects are ignored and solely limited to chat channels and dungeon finders. Consistently, all of what used to make MMORPGs fun for me is now being considered nonessential and removed so the greatest possible amount of players will subscribe.
It would be hard to write this post without bringing up Blizzard, World of Warcraft, and the effect it has had on the online game industry, something that everyone here knows. I used to have respect for Blizzard for being able to maintain superiority in producing a fun, immersive game. Now, my mind has changed. Cataclysm's dungeons are going to be even more linear. They are revamping dungeons by removing various nonessential wings. What happened to the enjoyment of exploring dungeons through a feeling of risk?
I resubbed WoW to play through WotLK. I did two years after the expansion had come out. Playing my 80 priest through the dungeon finder was a seriously disturbing experience. Every group pushes through 5 man heroics as fast as possible. They have all seem the bosses, know all of the loot, and only do it for badges and now for justice points. No one talks to one another, they have no patience if someone needs to take a piss or needs to know the strategy for the boss, or anything. People are running these dungeons purely for the small amount of badges they will receive to buy loot that will be useless in the next patch (let alone the next expansion.) So this brings me to my next point:
Go take a look at any game developer conference and look at what classes they are offering. You will not notice an emphasis on positive game design through ingenuity, rather, the focus is upon how to maintain a grind without making it feel like one, cognitive psychology in players (this scares the shit out of me), marketing models, the new intrigue in item shops and f2p models, and other crap that is solely for the purpose of making money and increasing subscribers.
These developers don't give a shit about your experience of the game, or creating new forms of art and play through virtual worlds. Now it's about taking advantage of your need to gather and hoard items, the psychological addiction of loot probability (gambling essentially), keeping you on the treadmill for as long as possible, and creating an overall experience that treats the player as some patient who needs his/her fix of MMO crack.
Where is the imagination that Dungeons & Dragons offered, or tabletop Warhammer? These games, along with fantasy literature, was the basis upon where MMOs got their ideas. EQ1, Ultima, Diablo 2, DAoC, FFXI, all offered aspects of gaming that appreciated social community, the unknowing of traveling without a map, open forms of PvP, experience loss, hard dungeons, etc. Old MMORPG experience was about risk and feeling like something unexpected could happen at any play session.
That doesn't exist anymore. Well maybe we can say that this is the "new" generation of MMOs. But then what does it offer in terms of creative, enjoyable content? My bet is that the 12 million subscribers of WoW aren't really even enjoying the game, they are rather not interested enough with their real lives and are seeking some form of accomplishment through gathering gold and items.
I think there is something seriously ethically wrong about the way developers are designing games, and I think that we as the players need to speak up and not act like mice or sheep. Online games should enhance the creative aspects of the individual, and the desire to experience fantasy-like elements with others in a virtual world. They should be about the competition we cannot enjoy in real life, through a playful manner, but also stimulate the collaborative aspects that we as a species can act upon.
I havent even touched upon the artistic direction in games today. The main focus is realism. Fu*k realism. Video games are not about imitating real life; they are supposed to be imaginary. I want to see surreal landscapes with twisted skies and feel as if I'm walking through something that does not or never will exist physically. I don't need polished armor and enhanced light and shadows to make me feel like I'm in the world. I want the visual aspect to be left up to me as the observer to attach my own meaning and aesthetic appreciation. Screw how good the water ripple effects are, show me a castle that has been built into a giant mountain that I know I can approach and explore, without having a lighted entry way with a bunch of quest NPCS sitting outside.
Inevitably, I'm going to be told to quit MMOs and leave it up to the people who enjoy them now. Well I probably will, but I do want people to be more skeptical about the games that are coming out in the past few years. Don't just consume them as if they were McDonalds or Starbucks. These games are ideas, and ideas can't be capitalized and streamlined just to get subscribers. We need to ask more of developers, or support independent companies that are trying to make better games (and I try to do this myself.)
That's the end of my rant. I guess I feel like I've spent too many years hoping that MMOs will take a creative turn and approach the potential that they can offer. Sadly, we are going to see more hunks of overpriced shit like SWTOR and Tera.
Here's a good article about how MMOs are trying to get you addicted:
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
That's not even remotely true. The only excessively grindy games around at WoW's launch were EQ, and maybe AC, which were from the 90s. The other games from around that time had already long since reduced the grind. I'd be surprised if someone could name a SINGLE innovative feature of WoW, other than "really easy" (which wasn't exclusive to WoW either).
We all know the WoW success reason, timing and multimillion dollar larger than life advertising budget aimed at non gamers (same reason the Wii is successful now). We haven't seen innovation since then because companies with big budgets are run by corporate stooges who think "copy what's winning". Indie games continue to innovative and operate under the radar. (Darkfall, Eve) while big budget games just keep moving backwards.
Having games made by gamers looking to make good games is important.
But we gamers have always thrashed these guys.
So when marketing corps came in and they influened everything, and gamers fell for it and they fell hard for it; well it blended it to the point of being indistinguishable.
Overall tho' treating games like its part of the entertainment business will move it forward as an artform. Just at a price. Support the indy game efforts and try and control your 'oooooo shiny' side a little.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
Amen.
And for those not liking the route that has been taken: it is going to get much worse for them.
Blizzard is building on its next MMO with the same infrastructure as WOW just recently got : a world wide clustered based MMO.
Finito with those narrow single realm based servers and community. The big difference will be that the new estMMO's will be based on the clustered server mechanics from the very beginning (see GW2 too).
Guild play and MMORPG's will no longer be based on single server structures. It opens up too many advantages to be ignored.
The Blizzard MMO will even have open gates to their other games I am afraid and - horror - perhaps even non Blizzard on line games (like Bungie's and other Call of Duties).
So OP please stop the whining, you are 5 years too late already: adapt or leave the field.
Comments
Nice rant here. Oh, don't understand me wrong, I fully agree with you and share your complaints. I haven't been subscribed to any AAA MMORPG title since years - quite the opposite, I almost enjoy following how they seemingly produce only trainwrecks lately.
It's almost as if they are so hard trying to produce the next mega-hit that they're almost guaranteed to miss their target by a long shot, or rather several parsecs at least. Granted, the earlier developers had it more easy in a way, they had a much more homogeneous fanbase in the old days.
Today, they not only have to appease the RPG veteran, they also want the casual achievers as subscribers ("I want to login for an hour or two and achieve something") and don't forget the PvP crowd that would be playing their FPS or RTS games otherwise ("I want to login and go straight to the action"). Of course the entertainment companies want that money too.
Thus they all try to satisfy almost everybody, in the end satisfying noone of course. And that's why they're morons, these "bloodsucking capitalist" ones from your thread. If they would try to develop games for narrower target markets they might actually make a dollar with their games instead of producing a long string of underachieving titles.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I have faith in the genre still. Games like Arche Age keep the flame glowing. And even games like WoW still retain the core elements of why we fell in love with mmos in the first place. The worst thing you can do is become cynical because when that happens, you only have yourself to blame for your unhappiness.
Virtual world or not, mmos exist because of communities of players converging on a theme. The irony is that the most important aspect of mmos is also the one thing that is under complete control of the players.
Agreed. I've pretty much given up on the idea that we ever see something with depth like DAoC and EQ used to be.
GW2 is pretty much my last hope. If that is a dud, too, then I'm pretty much done with MMOs. I haven't even touched an MMO in quite some time, and its been even longer since I enjoyed one.
No MMO since WOW has come close to having any appeal to the mass market in the US. They've been complete duds. WAR, AOC, Vanguard, DDO, EQ2, etc have not lived up to hype or are remotely popular(granted DDO has had a massive resurgence since its f2p). Its sad when the second most popular game in the US is LOTRO, which had to go f2p to survive. What do all those games have in common, sans DDO? They tried to "appeal to the masses" aka dumbing things down. Not seeing how those are popular games, yet the were designed for people who are entertained by watching grass grow.
The OP is 100% spot on that MMOS suck(not sure what a bloodsucking capitalist has do with it, since without capitalism MMOs, personal computers and the internet would not exist). MMOs are terrible, and the advent of f2p to hook the teens and tweens is going to make it worse.
I see these types of responses all the time, and they never fail to annoy the crap out of me. At what point does "I played MMOs for 8 years" automatically turn into "I played MMOs for 8 straight years without leaving the house, socializing outside the MMO, going to work, bathing, or even walking away to take a piss."
It's just a troll comment, even if concealed by an attempt at politeness. It's a ridiculous, presumptive, absurd response that no gamer should ever use as all it does is reinforce fictional stereotypes and add nothing to the conversation.
Playing: Eve, LoL
Played: EQ, SWG, EQII, MxO,DDO CoX, WoW, & LoTRO
Awaiting: GW2, Rift, Earthrise, TOR
I find the "why don't you make one?" comment just as annoying as the one I just explained.
Anyone here have 60 million dollars? No? Then STFU.
Playing: Eve, LoL
Played: EQ, SWG, EQII, MxO,DDO CoX, WoW, & LoTRO
Awaiting: GW2, Rift, Earthrise, TOR
The thread title may be irrelevant, but you clearly misunderstood the OP's argument. He was arguing that games produced now lack creative elements, not that they lack any particular mechanical feature. That's a valid argument even if we might all disagree on whether old school games were creative or not.
No, it is no argument nor it is valid. It is an opinion based on subjective perception of the poster.
He basically says that the games are not what he expect or want them to be thus they are worthless and everyone who produce or plays them are <input derogative term here>....
You read what you wanted to read -- I didn't get that out of it at all.
Playing: Eve, LoL
Played: EQ, SWG, EQII, MxO,DDO CoX, WoW, & LoTRO
Awaiting: GW2, Rift, Earthrise, TOR
It is an argument - I'll break it down into a syllogism:
If current mmorpgs are designed only to appeal to base human psychological tendencies, then they will not spark creative imagination.
Current mmorpgs are designed only to appeal to base human psychological tendencies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore, they will not spare creative imagination.
In propositional logic form:
P -> ~Q
P
----------
~Q
That's modus ponens, a valid form of argument (valid meaning that the conclusion follows necessarily from the premises, given that they are true). If you want to argue whether it's a sound argument (whether the premises are true or false), then that's something different.
This is basically what happens when a single market has rapid growth over the course of a decade. The video gaming industry has exploded in the last several years, with a lot of the social stigma that has surrounded video gaming in the past having dissipated. Gaming used to be considered "geeky" or something that only young tubby children played, but now that it has become more accepted by society, there is suddenly a lot more people out there who will partake in the activity. Investors start seeing dollar signs, want a greater exposure, and push the developers to produce games that any idiot who doesn't even have a high school education would be able to understand and possibly even do good at.
Ah crap, better stop there before I really start rambling. Basically.... its all about money. It always has been. Always will be.
I'm waiting on another Icelandic Model. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4489/the_icelandic_model_of_mmo_.php
The blue: OP lost the bet. What kind of a personality can speak for "12 million subscribers".
The yellow: No one forces him to play any MMORPG as a dungeon crawler. The playful manner resides within the player who picks what he wants to play. Typical the OP picks out one element of MMO games that all offer a multitude of options to play.
It shows such persons are stuck in old designs that were left behind and have been surpassed by newer and better choices without losing a lifetime in search for fun.
He also thinks he's the universe. He's not.
Circular reasoning does not make a valid argument
However, this isn't an exercise in formal logic.
Don't blame the Dev's blame the current generation of gamer. They simply want it all now with as little time and effort involved. The term Risk VS Reward makes their little heads hurt and a Death Penalty that is something more than a free teleport to town is just too much for them.
I simply wish some developer would take EQ and make it new BEFORE the days of Auction Houses and Portal Stones. EQ was simply perfect as far as Immersion goes and Risk VS Reward. Same goes for WOW. It was a great game prior to The Burning Crusade. This is where WOW took a seriousl turn for the worst.
Like the OP stated, Developers today don't care about immersion. They have found the power of the casual game and tThey simply want subscribers and they don't even care if you play just as long as you're subscribed. Thus they make what the MASS wants which is basically Farmville type of play and then roll that into an MMO. There is no more loyalty to their dedicated players like their use to be. They simply don't care.
There is simply no rason a developer can't make an updated EQ. One without fast travel, Auction Houses and instances and letting the players figure out to haggle their wears. Todays gamers just don't understand what it was like to zone into the Eastern Commons and see all the spam. The fun in haggling over gear and trading with others online. They are so use to the bland Auction House window and don't know any better. They don't have the slightest clue what it is like to be in a dungeon that ANYONE can be in. They are so used to their own little private instance. They have no clue what it is like to have someone KS you. Sure it sucked but it is IMMERSIVE! That was YOUR target and they had no right!!! Again, it sucked but it was part of the game. In EQ if you got known as a KSer it actually hurt your reputation on the server and you would get blacklisted from groups and guilds because of it. EQ was a WORLD and we LIVED in it. MMOs of today are a F'ing joke Immersion wise.
And before you ask why I don't play EQ. Because it too fell to the Subscribers are more important than the dedicated players. Planes of Power pretty much ruined the game for me. It changed what we knew of EQ and it went downhill from there. SOE is not one of my best friends nor is Brad. They sold out and are responsable for starting this trend if you ask me. SOE is NOT innovative in the MMO world but they were in the "How to squeeze as much money out that we can as cheap as possible" world.
It's not circular reasoning if he provides evidence for it, which he did...and that's still a valid form of argument by definition regardless. You are going to claim that the OP isn't making an argument and then say logic need not apply? I'm just going to leave you with this:
It isn't that simple. People will play what devs make because they don't have much of a choice, while devs are trying to make the game they think the players will like.
But the problem is that devs seems to think all players want to play Wow 2,0.
What we need is devs that makes games they will want to play. That is how EQ got created and Wow for that matter. The earliest games were made by gamers for gamers. Today is games more or less drawn up by suits like EA and Activision who tries to figure out what will sell best, they are not trying to make the game they themselves want to play anymore.
All devs who make a game they want to play will not succeed but some will. And if the devs have free hands they will create more diverse games, instead of just stealing eachothers ideas and rehashing the same game over and over.
I think the games create the players, not so much the other way around even if whining on forum affects the games and so does certain play styles.
Well I'm sure he can't speak for all 12 million but I think he can speak for the general enjoyment of the MMO concept in its current incarnation. MMOs are now designed to follow the concept of a dog getting a treat for doing a trick.
Do you think the dog enjoys doing the trick? Or is he just doing it for the treat?
I often find myself doing things I don't find fun in MMOs just for some shiny reward and I have to steer myself away from them with some difficulty. Hell the fact that anyone ever talks of 'grind' proves how prevalent this mechanic is in MMOs. The games target a subconcious desire of the human mind to be praised for things, even if they gain no pleasure in performing the task. The majority of people playing MMOs likely aren't enjoying them... but they continue to play anyway in order to be praised and rewarded over and over again.
How many people do you know who moan about grinding dailies in WoW? About how dull crafting is? About how repetitive instances are? Yet they continue to play... The reason people rush through instances is further proof of this concept; the content itself is not fun, they're just doing it for the rewards. It may be fun once or twice but after the novelty of new content wears off it's just a grind.
Older MMOs used to balance this with community features as other players could make the game many times more dynamic than the developers ever could with static content. Modern MMOs have pretty much gutted social features though in their 'streamlining' for the lowest common denominator...
More posts about how MY OPINION on the perfect game should be true! I don't hold it against someone that they want to play a particular type of game, but to consider it the epitome of game design because YOU liked it, is foolish. Go and support whatever you find most appropriate for your style. Because if you can't convince a company they are going to do decently with your particular niche, you aren't going to see much for it.
Personally, nostalgia trumps a lot of other things. I know that I watched a lot of friends playing EQ and UO, and that convinced me to ignore MMOs totally for four or so years.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
Then all the other bandwagon companies followed.
Why do you think we haven't seen ANY innovation in the genre in the last 5 years, outside of indie companies?
MMORPGs are no longer social virtual worlds created by devoted game fans, they're just copy and pasted EQ clones dumbed down for the Farmvile masses.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
AMEN!
That's not even remotely true. The only excessively grindy games around at WoW's launch were EQ, and maybe AC, which were from the 90s. The other games from around that time had already long since reduced the grind. I'd be surprised if someone could name a SINGLE innovative feature of WoW, other than "really easy" (which wasn't exclusive to WoW either).
We all know the WoW success reason, timing and multimillion dollar larger than life advertising budget aimed at non gamers (same reason the Wii is successful now). We haven't seen innovation since then because companies with big budgets are run by corporate stooges who think "copy what's winning". Indie games continue to innovative and operate under the radar. (Darkfall, Eve) while big budget games just keep moving backwards.
Having games made by gamers looking to make good games is important.
But we gamers have always thrashed these guys.
So when marketing corps came in and they influened everything, and gamers fell for it and they fell hard for it; well it blended it to the point of being indistinguishable.
Overall tho' treating games like its part of the entertainment business will move it forward as an artform. Just at a price. Support the indy game efforts and try and control your 'oooooo shiny' side a little.
Amen.
And for those not liking the route that has been taken: it is going to get much worse for them.
Blizzard is building on its next MMO with the same infrastructure as WOW just recently got : a world wide clustered based MMO.
Finito with those narrow single realm based servers and community. The big difference will be that the new estMMO's will be based on the clustered server mechanics from the very beginning (see GW2 too).
Guild play and MMORPG's will no longer be based on single server structures. It opens up too many advantages to be ignored.
The Blizzard MMO will even have open gates to their other games I am afraid and - horror - perhaps even non Blizzard on line games (like Bungie's and other Call of Duties).
So OP please stop the whining, you are 5 years too late already: adapt or leave the field.