I agree with the premise of this thread. PWE screws its customers on the "closed beta" access. WOW make huge unilateral changes to the game that make it hard for all players and ruin what used to be good customers service. Fantasy 14 & Karos don't accept Discover Card, which rules out a lot of people with discretionary money. Soul Order doesn't have quests appropriate for levels 20 and 21. I could go on. None of these decisions promote the participation of people long term. Correcting their mistakes probably would not have cost a bunch. They make decisions without considering the customers.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
Amen.
Er, what? You realize WoW wasn't the first "casual" game, and not all oldschool games were like EQ? Hell there are more clones in this generation than last, the last generation, each game was interesting, innovative, and had its own identity and players. This generation, its all WoW clones with a slight flavor change.
And for those not liking the route that has been taken: it is going to get much worse for them.
No kidding, corporate clone games are INCREASING, not decreasing.
Blizzard is building on its next MMO with the same infrastructure as WOW just recently got : a world wide clustered based MMO.
Which Eve has had since 2003
Finito with those narrow single realm based servers and community. The big difference will be that the new estMMO's will be based on the clustered server mechanics from the very beginning (see GW2 too).
Which Eve has had since 2003
Guild play and MMORPG's will no longer be based on single server structures. It opens up too many advantages to be ignored.
If you mean the moronic dungeon finder system and cross server battlegrounds, both those are horribly implemented ideas, and WoW didn't create them. Dark Age of Camelot did.
The Blizzard MMO will even have open gates to their other games I am afraid and - horror - perhaps even non Blizzard on line games (like Bungie's and other Call of Duties).
I don't even know what this paragraph is trying to say.
So OP please stop the whining, you are 5 years too late already: adapt or leave the field.
How kind of you. When your favorite genre of game completely vanishes, and you try to tell us why you liked it, I'll make sure to flame you, laugh at you, and tell you to get with the times.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
That's not even remotely true. The only excessively grindy games around at WoW's launch were EQ, and maybe AC, which were from the 90s. The other games from around that time had already long since reduced the grind. I'd be surprised if someone could name a SINGLE innovative feature of WoW, other than "really easy" (which wasn't exclusive to WoW either).
We all know the WoW success reason, timing and multimillion dollar larger than life advertising budget aimed at non gamers (same reason the Wii is successful now). We haven't seen innovation since then because companies with big budgets are run by corporate stooges who think "copy what's winning". Indie games continue to innovative and operate under the radar. (Darkfall, Eve) while big budget games just keep moving backwards.
CoH and FFXI were two other grindy games. Not sure about DAoC since I never played it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the non-PvP there was also grindy. Basically all MMOs before WoW had a lot of heavy grind. I played several MMOs before WoW and they were all insanely grindy (WoW hasgrown increasingly grindy itself now). WoW also has an excellent interface among other things. Acting like WoW isn't a good game is ridiculous, as is acting like it early great success is because non-gamers played it. Then again, you seem to think the Wii isn't innovative and owes its success just to marketing, which is ridiculous.
The MMO market is in such awful straights because of a bunch of games that came out in shoddy condition. Warhammer and Age of Conan are perhaps the most well-known of these. They had a great chance to steal away a lot of WoW players and expand the MMO landscape as they had a number of differences from WoW. From there the market would have probably expanded even further. Instead they came out in poor shape, badly tuned and unfinished, and so they did terribly. WoW's continued success has everything to do with the awful competition it has faced.
Those indie games are honestly not that good. It seems you associate "innovative" with "sandbox" though. Eve requires that you devote a significant portion of your life to the game to do well as you have to stay involved in the social aspect of the game, especially with the high risk of treachery, how everything must come from players, and how you can lose everything you own. That's something that will NEVER be very popular. I'll admit they've done it well though, but their subs will never go all that much higher than what they have now, imho. Any AAA MMO done like Eve would do badly. Darkfall is another game that had a pretty shoddy release (well, frankly, so did Eve).
It's popular on here to pretend WoW didn't do anything well or new and it is just luck that made it successful and clones that continue its success. That's a poor analysis of what has happened though, and serves one's dislike of WoW more than anything.
I'm NOT a big fan of WoW. I did play it for about a year two years ago (stopped one year ago), and that was alright. It is not something I'd play again though. Dismissing what it does right and why it is successful as luck, marketing, and happenstance without any further analysis is silly, however.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
That's not even remotely true. The only excessively grindy games around at WoW's launch were EQ, and maybe AC, which were from the 90s. The other games from around that time had already long since reduced the grind. I'd be surprised if someone could name a SINGLE innovative feature of WoW, other than "really easy" (which wasn't exclusive to WoW either).
We all know the WoW success reason, timing and multimillion dollar larger than life advertising budget aimed at non gamers (same reason the Wii is successful now). We haven't seen innovation since then because companies with big budgets are run by corporate stooges who think "copy what's winning". Indie games continue to innovative and operate under the radar. (Darkfall, Eve) while big budget games just keep moving backwards.
CoH and FFXI were two other grindy games. Not sure about DAoC since I never played it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the non-PvP there was also grindy. Basically all MMOs before WoW had a lot of heavy grind. I played several MMOs before WoW and they were all insanely grindy So... following a GPS mini map along a magical dotted line to a glowing quest objective two thousand times automatically makes it not a grind? You even had to grind to raid in WoW. It sure as hell was a grind tastic game, and is even worse now At least before when farming mobs in other games I could socialize with people and explore. In WoW I'm just following the dotted line and soloing. WoW also has an excellent interface among other things. The WoW interface isn't anything special. DAoC was the first MMO to have a full customizable UI. Acting like WoW isn't a good game is ridiculous, as is acting like it early great success is because non-gamers played it. Then again, you seem to think the Wii isn't innovative and owes its success just to marketing, which is ridiculous. That's not what I said. I said the Wii owes its success to targeting, because thats where the larger market is, and that's what WoW did, target non MMOers.
Those indie games are honestly not that good. It seems you associate "innovative" with "sandbox" though. Eve requires it is not required, it simply has enough depth that you CAN devote a lot of time to it that you devote a significant portion of your life to the game to do well as you have to stay involved in the social aspect of the game, especially with the high risk of treachery, how everything must come from players, and how you can lose everything you own. Only in high sec, you've clearly never played the game, so I'll let you go on that one. That's something that will NEVER be very popular. I'll admit they've done it well though, but their subs will never go all that much higher than what they have now, imho. Really? Because they're pretty much the ONLY MMORPG in the last 5 minutes thats been CONSTANTLY growing. Any AAA MMO done like Eve would do badly. Darkfall is another game that had a pretty shoddy release (well, frankly, so did Eve) and so did WoW.
It's popular on here to pretend WoW didn't do anything well or new that's because its true? and it is just luck that made it successful and clones that continue its success. That's a poor analysis of what has happened though, and serves one's dislike of WoW more than anything.
I'm NOT a big fan of WoW. I did play it for about a year two years ago (stopped one year ago), and that was alright. It is not something I'd play again though. Dismissing what it does right and why it is successful as luck, marketing, and happenstance without any further analysis is silly, however.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
Amen.
Er, what? You realize WoW wasn't the first "casual" game, and not all oldschool games were like EQ? Hell there are more clones in this generation than last, the last generation, each game was interesting, innovative, and had its own identity and players. This generation, its all WoW clones with a slight flavor change.
And for those not liking the route that has been taken: it is going to get much worse for them.
No kidding, corporate clone games are INCREASING, not decreasing.
Blizzard is building on its next MMO with the same infrastructure as WOW just recently got : a world wide clustered based MMO.
Which Eve has had since 2003
Finito with those narrow single realm based servers and community. The big difference will be that the new estMMO's will be based on the clustered server mechanics from the very beginning (see GW2 too).
Which Eve has had since 2003
Guild play and MMORPG's will no longer be based on single server structures. It opens up too many advantages to be ignored.
If you mean the moronic dungeon finder system and cross server battlegrounds, both those are horribly implemented ideas, and WoW didn't create them. Dark Age of Camelot did.
The Blizzard MMO will even have open gates to their other games I am afraid and - horror - perhaps even non Blizzard on line games (like Bungie's and other Call of Duties).
I don't even know what this paragraph is trying to say.
So OP please stop the whining, you are 5 years too late already: adapt or leave the field.
How kind of you. When your favorite genre of game completely vanishes, and you try to tell us why you liked it, I'll make sure to flame you, laugh at you, and tell you to get with the times.
What are you trying to do? Ignore the meaning of Wow by comparing it to games that dissapeared from the scenes as valid alternatives for obvious reasons?
What you do is calling Mr Neandertahler more evolved than the homo sapiens. You compare the 1920 model of Ford with the present day car. Let people Install those old boxes and try to enjoy them in 2010: they won't: latest example : FF14.
They simply won't. You may like them personally, you could even drive them for fun, but they are no longer suited to our needs.
These days we turn the key to start the engine, we don't dive in front or under our cars to manually start the engine.
I agree with the premise of this thread. PWE screws its customers on the "closed beta" access. WOW make huge unilateral changes to the game that make it hard for all players and ruin what used to be good customers service. Fantasy 14 & Karos don't accept Discover Card, which rules out a lot of people with discretionary money. Soul Order doesn't have quests appropriate for levels 20 and 21. I could go on. None of these decisions promote the participation of people long term. Correcting their mistakes probably would not have cost a bunch. They make decisions without considering the customers.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
Amen.
Er, what? You realize WoW wasn't the first "casual" game, and not all oldschool games were like EQ? Hell there are more clones in this generation than last, the last generation, each game was interesting, innovative, and had its own identity and players. This generation, its all WoW clones with a slight flavor change.
And for those not liking the route that has been taken: it is going to get much worse for them.
No kidding, corporate clone games are INCREASING, not decreasing.
Blizzard is building on its next MMO with the same infrastructure as WOW just recently got : a world wide clustered based MMO.
Which Eve has had since 2003
Finito with those narrow single realm based servers and community. The big difference will be that the new estMMO's will be based on the clustered server mechanics from the very beginning (see GW2 too).
Which Eve has had since 2003
Guild play and MMORPG's will no longer be based on single server structures. It opens up too many advantages to be ignored.
If you mean the moronic dungeon finder system and cross server battlegrounds, both those are horribly implemented ideas, and WoW didn't create them. Dark Age of Camelot did.
The Blizzard MMO will even have open gates to their other games I am afraid and - horror - perhaps even non Blizzard on line games (like Bungie's and other Call of Duties).
I don't even know what this paragraph is trying to say.
So OP please stop the whining, you are 5 years too late already: adapt or leave the field.
How kind of you. When your favorite genre of game completely vanishes, and you try to tell us why you liked it, I'll make sure to flame you, laugh at you, and tell you to get with the times.
What are you trying to do? Ignore the meaning of Wow by comparing it to games that dissapeared from the scenes as valid alternatives for obvious reasons? If those reasons are obvious, why don't you enlighten us? Unlike you, I played most of them, and I know why I'm not playing them now.
What you do is calling Mr Neandertahler more evolved than the homo sapiens. You compare the 1920 model of Ford with the present day car. Let people Install those old boxes and try to enjoy them in 2010: they won't: latest example : FF14. HAHA! How was FF14 ANYTHING to do with people not enjoying "oldschool" style games? But no, I guess in your fantasy land, all MMOs that do poorly did so purely because they were "outdated' and because they sucked and weren't like WoW. And saying old MMOs are the difference between 1920 tech and 2010 tech in cars? Holy crap, I've seen some bad analogies, but man. So... if WoW, is the pinnacle of tech, how come it doesn't have... player made structures, housing, RvR, a player economy, naval combat, an uninstanced fully open world, being able to place items in the world for other players to pick up or interact with, treasure hunting, a fully fleshed out crafting system, dynamic monster AI/events, 100+ man raids, or any number of other features that these "old outdated sucky not fun primitive" games of 1997 had? Hm?
They simply won't. You may like them personally, you could even drive them for fun, but they are no longer suited to our needs.
These days we turn the key to start the engine, we don't dive in front or under our cars to manually start the engine.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
That's not even remotely true. The only excessively grindy games around at WoW's launch were EQ, and maybe AC, which were from the 90s. The other games from around that time had already long since reduced the grind. I'd be surprised if someone could name a SINGLE innovative feature of WoW, other than "really easy" (which wasn't exclusive to WoW either).
We all know the WoW success reason, timing and multimillion dollar larger than life advertising budget aimed at non gamers (same reason the Wii is successful now). We haven't seen innovation since then because companies with big budgets are run by corporate stooges who think "copy what's winning". Indie games continue to innovative and operate under the radar. (Darkfall, Eve) while big budget games just keep moving backwards.
CoH and FFXI were two other grindy games. Not sure about DAoC since I never played it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the non-PvP there was also grindy. Basically all MMOs before WoW had a lot of heavy grind. I played several MMOs before WoW and they were all insanely grindy So... following a GPS mini map along a magical dotted line to a glowing quest objective two thousand times automatically makes it not a grind? You even had to grind to raid in WoW. It sure as hell was a grind tastic game, and is even worse now At least before when farming mobs in other games I could socialize with people and explore. In WoW I'm just following the dotted line and soloing. WoW also has an excellent interface among other things. The WoW interface isn't anything special. DAoC was the first MMO to have a full customizable UI. Acting like WoW isn't a good game is ridiculous, as is acting like it early great success is because non-gamers played it. Then again, you seem to think the Wii isn't innovative and owes its success just to marketing, which is ridiculous. That's not what I said. I said the Wii owes its success to targeting, because thats where the larger market is, and that's what WoW did, target non MMOers.
Those indie games are honestly not that good. It seems you associate "innovative" with "sandbox" though. Eve requires it is not required, it simply has enough depth that you CAN devote a lot of time to it that you devote a significant portion of your life to the game to do well as you have to stay involved in the social aspect of the game, especially with the high risk of treachery, how everything must come from players, and how you can lose everything you own. Only in high sec, you've clearly never played the game, so I'll let you go on that one. That's something that will NEVER be very popular. I'll admit they've done it well though, but their subs will never go all that much higher than what they have now, imho. Really? Because they're pretty much the ONLY MMORPG in the last 5 minutes thats been CONSTANTLY growing. Any AAA MMO done like Eve would do badly. Darkfall is another game that had a pretty shoddy release (well, frankly, so did Eve) and so did WoW.
It's popular on here to pretend WoW didn't do anything well or new that's because its true? and it is just luck that made it successful and clones that continue its success. That's a poor analysis of what has happened though, and serves one's dislike of WoW more than anything.
I'm NOT a big fan of WoW. I did play it for about a year two years ago (stopped one year ago), and that was alright. It is not something I'd play again though. Dismissing what it does right and why it is successful as luck, marketing, and happenstance without any further analysis is silly, however.
You clearly never played WoW when it came out, which is no doubt why you think a Quest Helper-like interface was present at the beginning and that at first they targetted non-gamers (which in fact they only did pretty recently). You seem unaware that WoW numbers are also increasing and faster than Eve (which has only small increases).
Beyond that, I never said WoW didn't have grind. Rather, I said it was a lot less grindy than what came before. Given that you haven't even pointed out one game that was less grindy than WoW, I will assume you concede that point.
You're 5 years late on this revelation. It's been this way since Blizzard saw the massive success of DAoC and EQ, and decided to make the ultimate uninspired corporate glut game.
WoW was a big step forward for its time. It got rid of a tremendous amount of excess grind other games had. The problem is that we haven't seen much innovation since WoW. The game is so successful because it hasn't had any noteworthy competition.
That's not even remotely true. The only excessively grindy games around at WoW's launch were EQ, and maybe AC, which were from the 90s. The other games from around that time had already long since reduced the grind. I'd be surprised if someone could name a SINGLE innovative feature of WoW, other than "really easy" (which wasn't exclusive to WoW either).
We all know the WoW success reason, timing and multimillion dollar larger than life advertising budget aimed at non gamers (same reason the Wii is successful now). We haven't seen innovation since then because companies with big budgets are run by corporate stooges who think "copy what's winning". Indie games continue to innovative and operate under the radar. (Darkfall, Eve) while big budget games just keep moving backwards.
CoH and FFXI were two other grindy games. Not sure about DAoC since I never played it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the non-PvP there was also grindy. Basically all MMOs before WoW had a lot of heavy grind. I played several MMOs before WoW and they were all insanely grindy So... following a GPS mini map along a magical dotted line to a glowing quest objective two thousand times automatically makes it not a grind? You even had to grind to raid in WoW. It sure as hell was a grind tastic game, and is even worse now At least before when farming mobs in other games I could socialize with people and explore. In WoW I'm just following the dotted line and soloing. WoW also has an excellent interface among other things. The WoW interface isn't anything special. DAoC was the first MMO to have a full customizable UI. Acting like WoW isn't a good game is ridiculous, as is acting like it early great success is because non-gamers played it. Then again, you seem to think the Wii isn't innovative and owes its success just to marketing, which is ridiculous. That's not what I said. I said the Wii owes its success to targeting, because thats where the larger market is, and that's what WoW did, target non MMOers.
Those indie games are honestly not that good. It seems you associate "innovative" with "sandbox" though. Eve requires it is not required, it simply has enough depth that you CAN devote a lot of time to it that you devote a significant portion of your life to the game to do well as you have to stay involved in the social aspect of the game, especially with the high risk of treachery, how everything must come from players, and how you can lose everything you own. Only in high sec, you've clearly never played the game, so I'll let you go on that one. That's something that will NEVER be very popular. I'll admit they've done it well though, but their subs will never go all that much higher than what they have now, imho. Really? Because they're pretty much the ONLY MMORPG in the last 5 minutes thats been CONSTANTLY growing. Any AAA MMO done like Eve would do badly. Darkfall is another game that had a pretty shoddy release (well, frankly, so did Eve) and so did WoW.
It's popular on here to pretend WoW didn't do anything well or new that's because its true? and it is just luck that made it successful and clones that continue its success. That's a poor analysis of what has happened though, and serves one's dislike of WoW more than anything.
I'm NOT a big fan of WoW. I did play it for about a year two years ago (stopped one year ago), and that was alright. It is not something I'd play again though. Dismissing what it does right and why it is successful as luck, marketing, and happenstance without any further analysis is silly, however.
You clearly never played WoW when it came out Sorry, but I did, which is no doubt why you think a Quest Helper-like interface was present at the beginning Jesus christ, you mean to tell me quests are EVEN EASIER now? I didn't think they could go any lower than they were around launch. and that at first they targetted non-gamers I said nonMMO players and non gamers, which is exactly who they targetted. Most core MMORPG gamers played WoW and said "hey, this feels like a dumbed down version of EverQuest, and since I'm already bored of EQ, I"m not gonna bother playing this". Their numbers came in when people converted over from FPS games and Starcraft/Warcraft, and the 12 year olds and housewives. (which in fact they only did pretty recently) Nope, they've been aiming casual since day 1, WoW was the easiest MMO on the market when it launched and has only gotten easier since. . You seem unaware that WoW numbers are also increasing and faster than Eve (which has only small increases). Actually wrong again. WoW had a solid 2 years where there was absolutely NO growth. And, it had almost an entire year where they lost 8 MILLION subscribers. They've just recently announced their padded numbers again. So...sorry.
Beyond that, I never said WoW didn't have grind. Rather, I said it was a lot less grindy than what came before. Given that you haven't even pointed out one game that was less grindy than WoW, I will assume you concede that point.
No, but smaller companies in it for the love of the game and RPG mechanics as well as making a living do. Companies that are in it for milking cash out of people and just copying other MMOs make worse MMOs.
Isn't SOE considered one of the worst offenders in this regards?
SOEs' been in the game with same guys since the beginning. Smed been there the whole time. And Verant was always part of SOE even if there was some confusion about names etc.
Don't fool yourselves. Not much has changed, except for WoW drawing the focus/greed of some other large players.
Its like when Frodo puts on the ring at the hill near anduin and Sauron's Eye turns towards him and he freaks out...
To start, I am not involved in the video game industry and have only consumed these products for roughly eight years. Maybe this is not news any longer, and maybe I've been a moron myself for consistently hoping that newly developed mmorpgs are actually going to be worth something, but I think it's about time I take a leave from MMOs or video games entirely...
~snip~
Here's a good article about how MMOs are trying to get you addicted:
Wow that's quite a fairytale fantasy mmorpg you've cooked up there. Too bad no multi billion dollar company is gonna back it up to be made. So I'll never play it.
Seriously. There are plenty of games that carry on the spirit of sandbox mmos. It's just that they are not the ones being pushed with fancy advertisments and loud mouth forum jockies. And isn't that the whole freakin point of sandbox mmos? To avoid the high profile drama associated with their themepark, multi million dollar budgeted brothers? So why is it that most so called sandbox mmo players are pining for some time in the limelight when they could be discovering gems like:
Wurm Online
Haven and Hearth
Istaria
A Tale in the Desert
Saga of Ryzom
Minecraft
Love
Mortal Online
Vanguard
Darkfalls
EVE
I'll tell you why. Because it seems to me that you want sandbox mmos to be FoTM or have that mainstream pizazz and that's not what they are about. They never were and they never will be. So take a step back and try to remember how cool people thought you and your friends were playing D&D at recess...no...they didn't think you were cool you say? Well of course not, but now all of a sudden you demand the same treatment/respect/attention of the industry investment dollar that you curse and damn under the same breath? I'm sorry but now you're being a little unrealistic. Find a nice quite sandbox mmo, get to know the small team of developers that are running it and find a better outlook to your gaming life.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
All games are produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as developers are converned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the gamer, but only to get more money.
"All games are produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as developers are converned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the gamer, but only to get more money."
'All music is produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as the producers are concerned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the consumer, but only to get more money.'
'All movies are produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as the producers are concerned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the consumer, but only to get more money.'
'All novels are produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as the producers are concerned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the consumer, but only to get more money.'
'All art is produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as the producers are concerned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the consumer, but only to get more money.'
Notice a conceptual flaw? Not everything fits. When you get to the huge scale of money spent, it does tend to go that way, but if expectations are reasonable, and the scale is not 'WoW-killer', it can be done.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I don't play MMOs anymore. Once in a while I'll play a RPG but not very often anymore..
To tell the truth I get more enjoyment out of playing chess against my computer - at least when I'm beginning the game I have no specific idea how the game will go, and I do not know whether I'll succeed or not.
I miss EQ up through Velious, DAOC before TOA, and Planetside when it was swamped with players.
I seriously doubt those days of immersion MMOs are coming back and until they do, no MMO publisher gets my money.
Publishers are usually ran by bloodsucking capitalist morons that don't know the difference between a PS2 controller and a Banana.
Studios are made of hardworking people trying to get by while the publisher who doesn't know squat meddles with their design and forces decisions that the studios didn't want to make.
Or the publisher goes to a studio and demands certain things to be made while the studio tries to tell them it's impossible. Then they jury-rig something together similar to it because they need the money.
This happens time and time again, it's just the nature of the industry. Games need to be developed and published by 1 company and the higher-ups need to at least have a little bit of game development or even programming experience instead of only a business degree.
This is where MOST problems come from in the gaming industry.
EDIT: I forgot the generic korean F2P grinders that are mass produced as quickly as possible to try to get cash shop revenue in before they make another. Those companies don't care about the game or it's players, just the money.
I get bored of most games so quickly in these past few years, games are too easy and it really takes the fun out of them. MMO publishers just shoot for the box sale and then move on. It's a rough cycle for the consumer, waiting for a new game, buy into hype and then getting let down only to repeat the process with the next game in line.
Watching games bomb is becoming a new pass time and I no longer get hyped about anything as my faith has depleted to nothing. Reading random info on the net has been more fulfilling than playing games.
Although 2011 looks promising for MMO's im keeping my expectations low.
Unfortunately if people keep buying the new games that developers spoon feed us they are going to assume that everything is fine and dandy. It would take a considerable outcry from the MMO community to make them stop, look and listen but i don't really see that happening, which is a shame because I think that with the right direction MMOs could be a great thing. So until the messiah of MMO gaming appears i shall continue to invest all of my hope for games in development, currently invested in GW2, and hope that when they are released the disappointment isn't too great to subtract from whatever length of time i play the game until i can find a new game to invest my hope in, and repeat. Hopefully i'll either eventually drift out of the mmo genre or out of games altogether and find something more productive to do with my time, a man can dream.
Hate to sound like the devil's advocate here but is it not what business is all about? Making money whatever way they can? I mean, they aren't doing charity, their ultimate goal is to make a profit, if they like what they do then that's a big bonus and potential gain for the quality, but it's still about making money.
I don't like the current state of mmos any more than the OP, but it looks like that's how it flies nowdays, we can only hope the next wave of promising mmos in 2011 bring something new to the table.
The thrust of your argument seems to me to be that:
(1) there is no appreciable difference between personal ethics and buisness ethics,
(2) at some real point games began to be developed and published with the thought of only providing a 'good enough' product instead of a good product,
(3) gamers are (unconsciously and unadmittedly) more interested in min/maxing to achieve the most loot and the highest level with as little investment as possible,
(4) gamers are (unconsciously and with minor admission) completely uninterested in community within these social games
and (5) corporations are greedy enough to continue to push out poor products instead of good games and gamers are too stupid to do what they legitimately can do about it.
I've had to pull some of this from what you seemed to imply, avoiding getting lost in some of your more understandably angry bits of rhetoric, so the words I'm using won't necessarily be found in your post. With that said, I agree with your post and commend you for not just realising this but sharing your considered opinion with others. That last part is an important part of building community and it's great to see that some people are actually interested in doing that.
Now, there is no reason to stop playing MMORPGs altogether but there is every reason to completely avoid games that are bad and companies that are unscrupulous, Blizzard for example. I've noticed a similar trend in what you're saying even in FPS games on the PC, such as Valve's incredibly popular Left 4 Dead series. Those games are chock full of bugs and playing multiplayer games tends to end in sore winners, sore loser and people becomming incredibly frustrated by the bugs at critical junctures. Valve has done next to nothing to fix glaring problems that are posted all over the interwebs and won't likely be bothered, they have their money and a fairly rabid and cynical fanbase. By cynical I mean people who think that this is either as good as it gets or that they can't do anything about it and will just make the best of it.
The broader point, I think, is that gaming has stopped being about making quality pieces of functional art and about merely selling products because gaming is has become popular enough for that to happen. Sure, we had bad games and bugs in games from the beginning but what we have seen since, I would argue, the advent of inexpensive broadband is what has been described by you, our OP, myself and plenty of others. Gamers need to do their job and keep companies in check by demanding quality pieces of functional art, quality games, and not tolerate being shouted down by rabid fanboys, corporate shills or any other idiot who thinks that naked, mutated Capitalism is the best thing going.
Again, OP, good job.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain. (2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
Hate to sound like the devil's advocate here but is it not what business is all about? Making money whatever way they can? I mean, they aren't doing charity, their ultimate goal is to make a profit, if they like what they do then that's a big bonus and potential gain for the quality, but it's still about making money.
If you don't like it then don't buy it.
Of course but the problem is that they often trick themselves.
Wow has many players, therefor decided people like Jacobs & Barnett to xerox it. Problem is that people didn't want a new Wow (with smaller world and worse programing), they want something new or rather stay in the old game instead of doing the same thing in a slightly different game.
Investors tend to forget that it is Fun that sells games, not a certain kind of mechanics.
Games should be made by gamers for gamers, and that will actually sell fine too. If you want proof for that just look on Wow.
A few EQ fans who worked at Blizzard started on it because they thought EQ was a bit crude. So they tried to make it more fun (the teamed changed completely during development and Wow is not the game it was at launch but it still proves the point). When the game released it soon got many players because it was well coded and fun.
But people focus on the wrong thing when it comes to MMO, they forget that it is fun that sells. And playing a game that is more or less exactly the same as the previous game you played isn't really that fun.
(4) gamers are (unconsciously and with minor admission) completely uninterested in community within these social games
I really don't think so. But more and more games reward people who acts selfish and that will condition the players into becoming selfish in the long run. In the old days they were a lot better to reward players who worked together, now it seems almost like they punish teamwork at times.
For one thing seems games with less instances have better communities (there are exceptions of course). The more that happens in the open world the better.
I think the games in themselves creates their communities, not the other way around.
Start rewarding people who work together again and stop making things so easy for ninjas and other jerks and the community will be fine.
You clearly never played WoW when it came out Sorry, but I did, which is no doubt why you think a Quest Helper-like interface was present at the beginning Jesus christ, you mean to tell me quests are EVEN EASIER now? I didn't think they could go any lower than they were around launch. and that at first they targetted non-gamers I said nonMMO players and non gamers, which is exactly who they targetted. Most core MMORPG gamers played WoW and said "hey, this feels like a dumbed down version of EverQuest, and since I'm already bored of EQ, I"m not gonna bother playing this". Their numbers came in when people converted over from FPS games and Starcraft/Warcraft, and the 12 year olds and housewives. (which in fact they only did pretty recently) Nope, they've been aiming casual since day 1, WoW was the easiest MMO on the market when it launched and has only gotten easier since. . You seem unaware that WoW numbers are also increasing and faster than Eve (which has only small increases). Actually wrong again. WoW had a solid 2 years where there was absolutely NO growth. And, it had almost an entire year where they lost 8 MILLION subscribers. They've just recently announced their padded numbers again. So...sorry.
Beyond that, I never said WoW didn't have grind. Rather, I said it was a lot less grindy than what came before. Given that you haven't even pointed out one game that was less grindy than WoW, I will assume you concede that point.
When WoW was released they didn't point you in the direction of quests or anything like that. There was nothing like dotted lines to follow. So you claiming that was there is just plain wrong. I find it equally ridiculous you think WoW should just have targetted the very, very tiny MMO community among gamers that existed at the time.
Also, WoW never lost 8 million subs for an extended time. Man, pay some attention. There was an odd downward spike once that barely lasted any time at all. Also, almost no growth for WoW easily beats Eve's numbers. The games are just on completely different scales, because an Eve-like game will simply never be popular. I guess you might think that's a good thing given your critique of WoW though.
Comments
I agree with the premise of this thread. PWE screws its customers on the "closed beta" access. WOW make huge unilateral changes to the game that make it hard for all players and ruin what used to be good customers service. Fantasy 14 & Karos don't accept Discover Card, which rules out a lot of people with discretionary money. Soul Order doesn't have quests appropriate for levels 20 and 21. I could go on. None of these decisions promote the participation of people long term. Correcting their mistakes probably would not have cost a bunch. They make decisions without considering the customers.
CoH and FFXI were two other grindy games. Not sure about DAoC since I never played it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the non-PvP there was also grindy. Basically all MMOs before WoW had a lot of heavy grind. I played several MMOs before WoW and they were all insanely grindy (WoW hasgrown increasingly grindy itself now). WoW also has an excellent interface among other things. Acting like WoW isn't a good game is ridiculous, as is acting like it early great success is because non-gamers played it. Then again, you seem to think the Wii isn't innovative and owes its success just to marketing, which is ridiculous.
The MMO market is in such awful straights because of a bunch of games that came out in shoddy condition. Warhammer and Age of Conan are perhaps the most well-known of these. They had a great chance to steal away a lot of WoW players and expand the MMO landscape as they had a number of differences from WoW. From there the market would have probably expanded even further. Instead they came out in poor shape, badly tuned and unfinished, and so they did terribly. WoW's continued success has everything to do with the awful competition it has faced.
Those indie games are honestly not that good. It seems you associate "innovative" with "sandbox" though. Eve requires that you devote a significant portion of your life to the game to do well as you have to stay involved in the social aspect of the game, especially with the high risk of treachery, how everything must come from players, and how you can lose everything you own. That's something that will NEVER be very popular. I'll admit they've done it well though, but their subs will never go all that much higher than what they have now, imho. Any AAA MMO done like Eve would do badly. Darkfall is another game that had a pretty shoddy release (well, frankly, so did Eve).
It's popular on here to pretend WoW didn't do anything well or new and it is just luck that made it successful and clones that continue its success. That's a poor analysis of what has happened though, and serves one's dislike of WoW more than anything.
I'm NOT a big fan of WoW. I did play it for about a year two years ago (stopped one year ago), and that was alright. It is not something I'd play again though. Dismissing what it does right and why it is successful as luck, marketing, and happenstance without any further analysis is silly, however.
What are you trying to do? Ignore the meaning of Wow by comparing it to games that dissapeared from the scenes as valid alternatives for obvious reasons?
What you do is calling Mr Neandertahler more evolved than the homo sapiens. You compare the 1920 model of Ford with the present day car. Let people Install those old boxes and try to enjoy them in 2010: they won't: latest example : FF14.
They simply won't. You may like them personally, you could even drive them for fun, but they are no longer suited to our needs.
These days we turn the key to start the engine, we don't dive in front or under our cars to manually start the engine.
I didn't know you can screw a CUSTOMER in a beta.
You clearly never played WoW when it came out, which is no doubt why you think a Quest Helper-like interface was present at the beginning and that at first they targetted non-gamers (which in fact they only did pretty recently). You seem unaware that WoW numbers are also increasing and faster than Eve (which has only small increases).
Beyond that, I never said WoW didn't have grind. Rather, I said it was a lot less grindy than what came before. Given that you haven't even pointed out one game that was less grindy than WoW, I will assume you concede that point.
Do communists makes better MMOs ? and are they free if your member of the community?
No, but smaller companies in it for the love of the game and RPG mechanics as well as making a living do. Companies that are in it for milking cash out of people and just copying other MMOs make worse MMOs.
Isn't SOE considered one of the worst offenders in this regards?
SOEs' been in the game with same guys since the beginning. Smed been there the whole time. And Verant was always part of SOE even if there was some confusion about names etc.
Don't fool yourselves. Not much has changed, except for WoW drawing the focus/greed of some other large players.
Its like when Frodo puts on the ring at the hill near anduin and Sauron's Eye turns towards him and he freaks out...
Wow that's quite a fairytale fantasy mmorpg you've cooked up there. Too bad no multi billion dollar company is gonna back it up to be made. So I'll never play it.
Seriously. There are plenty of games that carry on the spirit of sandbox mmos. It's just that they are not the ones being pushed with fancy advertisments and loud mouth forum jockies. And isn't that the whole freakin point of sandbox mmos? To avoid the high profile drama associated with their themepark, multi million dollar budgeted brothers? So why is it that most so called sandbox mmo players are pining for some time in the limelight when they could be discovering gems like:
Wurm Online
Haven and Hearth
Istaria
A Tale in the Desert
Saga of Ryzom
Minecraft
Love
Mortal Online
Vanguard
Darkfalls
EVE
I'll tell you why. Because it seems to me that you want sandbox mmos to be FoTM or have that mainstream pizazz and that's not what they are about. They never were and they never will be. So take a step back and try to remember how cool people thought you and your friends were playing D&D at recess...no...they didn't think you were cool you say? Well of course not, but now all of a sudden you demand the same treatment/respect/attention of the industry investment dollar that you curse and damn under the same breath? I'm sorry but now you're being a little unrealistic. Find a nice quite sandbox mmo, get to know the small team of developers that are running it and find a better outlook to your gaming life.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
All games are produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as developers are converned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the gamer, but only to get more money.
"All games are produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as developers are converned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the gamer, but only to get more money."
'All music is produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as the producers are concerned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the consumer, but only to get more money.'
'All movies are produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as the producers are concerned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the consumer, but only to get more money.'
'All novels are produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as the producers are concerned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the consumer, but only to get more money.'
'All art is produced for the SOLE PURPOSE of making money. That's the only reason they exist as far as the producers are concerned. Sure they try and pretend they care about the consumer, but only to get more money.'
Notice a conceptual flaw? Not everything fits. When you get to the huge scale of money spent, it does tend to go that way, but if expectations are reasonable, and the scale is not 'WoW-killer', it can be done.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
So what you're saying is MMORPGs are run by vampires! Do they sparkle? >.<
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
In general I agree with the OP.
I don't play MMOs anymore. Once in a while I'll play a RPG but not very often anymore..
To tell the truth I get more enjoyment out of playing chess against my computer - at least when I'm beginning the game I have no specific idea how the game will go, and I do not know whether I'll succeed or not.
I miss EQ up through Velious, DAOC before TOA, and Planetside when it was swamped with players.
I seriously doubt those days of immersion MMOs are coming back and until they do, no MMO publisher gets my money.
Publishers are usually ran by bloodsucking capitalist morons that don't know the difference between a PS2 controller and a Banana.
Studios are made of hardworking people trying to get by while the publisher who doesn't know squat meddles with their design and forces decisions that the studios didn't want to make.
Or the publisher goes to a studio and demands certain things to be made while the studio tries to tell them it's impossible. Then they jury-rig something together similar to it because they need the money.
This happens time and time again, it's just the nature of the industry. Games need to be developed and published by 1 company and the higher-ups need to at least have a little bit of game development or even programming experience instead of only a business degree.
This is where MOST problems come from in the gaming industry.
EDIT:
I forgot the generic korean F2P grinders that are mass produced as quickly as possible to try to get cash shop revenue in before they make another. Those companies don't care about the game or it's players, just the money.
I get bored of most games so quickly in these past few years, games are too easy and it really takes the fun out of them. MMO publishers just shoot for the box sale and then move on. It's a rough cycle for the consumer, waiting for a new game, buy into hype and then getting let down only to repeat the process with the next game in line.
Watching games bomb is becoming a new pass time and I no longer get hyped about anything as my faith has depleted to nothing. Reading random info on the net has been more fulfilling than playing games.
Although 2011 looks promising for MMO's im keeping my expectations low.
Unfortunately if people keep buying the new games that developers spoon feed us they are going to assume that everything is fine and dandy. It would take a considerable outcry from the MMO community to make them stop, look and listen but i don't really see that happening, which is a shame because I think that with the right direction MMOs could be a great thing. So until the messiah of MMO gaming appears i shall continue to invest all of my hope for games in development, currently invested in GW2, and hope that when they are released the disappointment isn't too great to subtract from whatever length of time i play the game until i can find a new game to invest my hope in, and repeat. Hopefully i'll either eventually drift out of the mmo genre or out of games altogether and find something more productive to do with my time, a man can dream.
Hate to sound like the devil's advocate here but is it not what business is all about? Making money whatever way they can? I mean, they aren't doing charity, their ultimate goal is to make a profit, if they like what they do then that's a big bonus and potential gain for the quality, but it's still about making money.
I don't like the current state of mmos any more than the OP, but it looks like that's how it flies nowdays, we can only hope the next wave of promising mmos in 2011 bring something new to the table.
If you don't like it then don't buy it.
The thrust of your argument seems to me to be that:
(1) there is no appreciable difference between personal ethics and buisness ethics,
(2) at some real point games began to be developed and published with the thought of only providing a 'good enough' product instead of a good product,
(3) gamers are (unconsciously and unadmittedly) more interested in min/maxing to achieve the most loot and the highest level with as little investment as possible,
(4) gamers are (unconsciously and with minor admission) completely uninterested in community within these social games
and (5) corporations are greedy enough to continue to push out poor products instead of good games and gamers are too stupid to do what they legitimately can do about it.
I've had to pull some of this from what you seemed to imply, avoiding getting lost in some of your more understandably angry bits of rhetoric, so the words I'm using won't necessarily be found in your post. With that said, I agree with your post and commend you for not just realising this but sharing your considered opinion with others. That last part is an important part of building community and it's great to see that some people are actually interested in doing that.
Now, there is no reason to stop playing MMORPGs altogether but there is every reason to completely avoid games that are bad and companies that are unscrupulous, Blizzard for example. I've noticed a similar trend in what you're saying even in FPS games on the PC, such as Valve's incredibly popular Left 4 Dead series. Those games are chock full of bugs and playing multiplayer games tends to end in sore winners, sore loser and people becomming incredibly frustrated by the bugs at critical junctures. Valve has done next to nothing to fix glaring problems that are posted all over the interwebs and won't likely be bothered, they have their money and a fairly rabid and cynical fanbase. By cynical I mean people who think that this is either as good as it gets or that they can't do anything about it and will just make the best of it.
The broader point, I think, is that gaming has stopped being about making quality pieces of functional art and about merely selling products because gaming is has become popular enough for that to happen. Sure, we had bad games and bugs in games from the beginning but what we have seen since, I would argue, the advent of inexpensive broadband is what has been described by you, our OP, myself and plenty of others. Gamers need to do their job and keep companies in check by demanding quality pieces of functional art, quality games, and not tolerate being shouted down by rabid fanboys, corporate shills or any other idiot who thinks that naked, mutated Capitalism is the best thing going.
Again, OP, good job.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
Of course but the problem is that they often trick themselves.
Wow has many players, therefor decided people like Jacobs & Barnett to xerox it. Problem is that people didn't want a new Wow (with smaller world and worse programing), they want something new or rather stay in the old game instead of doing the same thing in a slightly different game.
Investors tend to forget that it is Fun that sells games, not a certain kind of mechanics.
Games should be made by gamers for gamers, and that will actually sell fine too. If you want proof for that just look on Wow.
A few EQ fans who worked at Blizzard started on it because they thought EQ was a bit crude. So they tried to make it more fun (the teamed changed completely during development and Wow is not the game it was at launch but it still proves the point). When the game released it soon got many players because it was well coded and fun.
But people focus on the wrong thing when it comes to MMO, they forget that it is fun that sells. And playing a game that is more or less exactly the same as the previous game you played isn't really that fun.
Fun games will always make a lot of money.
I really don't think so. But more and more games reward people who acts selfish and that will condition the players into becoming selfish in the long run. In the old days they were a lot better to reward players who worked together, now it seems almost like they punish teamwork at times.
For one thing seems games with less instances have better communities (there are exceptions of course). The more that happens in the open world the better.
I think the games in themselves creates their communities, not the other way around.
Start rewarding people who work together again and stop making things so easy for ninjas and other jerks and the community will be fine.
When WoW was released they didn't point you in the direction of quests or anything like that. There was nothing like dotted lines to follow. So you claiming that was there is just plain wrong. I find it equally ridiculous you think WoW should just have targetted the very, very tiny MMO community among gamers that existed at the time.
Also, WoW never lost 8 million subs for an extended time. Man, pay some attention. There was an odd downward spike once that barely lasted any time at all. Also, almost no growth for WoW easily beats Eve's numbers. The games are just on completely different scales, because an Eve-like game will simply never be popular. I guess you might think that's a good thing given your critique of WoW though.