And rightly so? I hope you're not talking about the American Dream of censoring drugs, alcohol and nudity from children.
Hiding things from children increases their curiosity about it. It gives the hidden object a sort of mysterious property that encourages them to go seek it. Eventually it develops an underground feel about it and they're less likely to be honest about their exposure. Let them drink a little alcohol with dinner and they're less inclined to binge when they have their first taste. Don't claim human nudity is indecent (well, there are exceptions) and they're less likely to hide their sexual activities from you. If they expect you're going to punish them, of course they won't tell you.
Disagree? Let the country's youth's current state be a case study for you.
THAT ALL ASIDE... I agree, overdone violence should be hidden as an exception to my rule. You don't want them to grow up and even have the option to run through the streets with an uzi shooting people willy nilly.
I'm only acting out because I didn't get to kill anything.
And rightly so? I hope you're not talking about the American Dream of censoring drugs, alcohol and nudity from children.
Hiding things from children increases their curiosity about it. It gives the hidden object a sort of mysterious property that encourages them to go seek it. Eventually it develops an underground feel about it and they're less likely to be honest about their exposure. Let them drink a little alcohol with dinner and they're less inclined to binge when they have their first taste. Don't claim human nudity is indecent (well, there are exceptions) and they're less likely to hide their sexual activities from you. If they expect you're going to punish them, of course they won't tell you.
Disagree? Let the country's youth's current state be a case study for you.
THAT ALL ASIDE... I agree, overdone violence should be hidden as an exception to my rule. You don't want them to grow up and even have the option to run through the streets with an uzi shooting people willy nilly.
Hate to double post, but this was in response to Ozmodan.
I'm only acting out because I didn't get to kill anything.
There's a very simple solution to this: Rate games the same as movies and add similar restrictions. (i.e. A game that is rated R requires that an adult be present for a minor to purchase the game.) These laws are about assisting parents in parenting, not parenting FOR parents. A typical parent doesn't want their 14-year-old coming home from the mall with a video game of strip poker. Of course kids can work around it if they're really dead set on getting what they want (like alcohol and ciggs), but it's a deterrent, not a infallible system of corporate parenting.
And rightly so? I hope you're not talking about the American Dream of censoring drugs, alcohol and nudity from children.
Hiding things from children increases their curiosity about it. It gives the hidden object a sort of mysterious property that encourages them to go seek it. Eventually it develops an underground feel about it and they're less likely to be honest about their exposure. Let them drink a little alcohol with dinner and they're less inclined to binge when they have their first taste. Don't claim human nudity is indecent (well, there are exceptions) and they're less likely to hide their sexual activities from you. If they expect you're going to punish them, of course they won't tell you.
Disagree? Let the country's youth's current state be a case study for you.
THAT ALL ASIDE... I agree, overdone violence should be hidden as an exception to my rule. You don't want them to grow up and even have the option to run through the streets with an uzi shooting people willy nilly.
There's no nice way to put this, but you're wrong all around on this thought process. The first part of parenting is to acknowledge and understand the existence of something that's bad for your child (drugs). Following that, you have to talk to your kid about it and let him know why it isn't good for him. Then explain that you never, ever want them doing it. After that, you have to keep exposure to it to a minimum to prevent desensitization.
There's a very simple solution to this: Rate games the same as movies and add similar restrictions. (i.e. A game that is rated R requires that an adult be present for a minor to purchase the game.) These laws are about assisting parents in parenting, not parenting FOR parents. A typical parent doesn't want their 14-year-old coming home from the mall with a video game of strip poker. Of course kids can work around it if they're really dead set on getting what they want (like alcohol and ciggs), but it's a deterrent, not a infallible system of corporate parenting.
You'd be surprised how many parents let their 12 year olds buy, say, GTA IV because "all my friends have it and if I don't buy it, I'll be a loser!"
Put whatever rating you want on it, it still comes down to the parents saying "No" and not trying to be their kid's best friend all the time.
There's a very simple solution to this: Rate games the same as movies and add similar restrictions. (i.e. A game that is rated R requires that an adult be present for a minor to purchase the game.) These laws are about assisting parents in parenting, not parenting FOR parents. A typical parent doesn't want their 14-year-old coming home from the mall with a video game of strip poker. Of course kids can work around it if they're really dead set on getting what they want (like alcohol and ciggs), but it's a deterrent, not a infallible system of corporate parenting.
You'd be surprised how many parents let their 12 year olds buy, say, GTA IV because "all my friends have it and if I don't buy it, I'll be a loser!"
Put whatever rating you want on it, it still comes down to the parents saying "No" and not trying to be their kid's best friend all the time.
I wholly agree. I know I'm running the risk of turning this into a heated debate, but it's the parents that let their child buy GTA games that makes proper parent's jobs a living nightmare.
There's a very simple solution to this: Rate games the same as movies and add similar restrictions. (i.e. A game that is rated R requires that an adult be present for a minor to purchase the game.) These laws are about assisting parents in parenting, not parenting FOR parents. A typical parent doesn't want their 14-year-old coming home from the mall with a video game of strip poker. Of course kids can work around it if they're really dead set on getting what they want (like alcohol and ciggs), but it's a deterrent, not a infallible system of corporate parenting.
You'd be surprised how many parents let their 12 year olds buy, say, GTA IV because "all my friends have it and if I don't buy it, I'll be a loser!"
Put whatever rating you want on it, it still comes down to the parents saying "No" and not trying to be their kid's best friend all the time.
I wholly agree. I know I'm running the risk of turning this into a heated debate, but it's the parents that let their child buy GTA games that makes proper parent's jobs a living nightmare.
Why is that? The guy next door letting his kid buy it doesn't affect what you allow to your own kid.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
The governor is always named in lawsuits such as this in California. Just like the prop 8 one, he was named even though he opposed the law and was speaking against it actively.
another nail in the coffin for the united states. I guess we live in a day and age where we no longer take responsibility for actions, and instead blame everything on someone else.
I would like to think of these incidents as few and far between, but they are increasingly becoming normal and accepted behaviors of scapgoating in both legistlation and politics.
IMO Parents are responsible for the raising of their children, a parents job is to prepare their kid for adult life ahead not to be their best friend.... and yes, I think there is a strong correlation between unwanted pre-maritial pregnanies and uncaring parents. If parents dont care for their children maybe they should require strict licensing for kids and punish bad parents, instead of attacking people who provide a service, that is protected under the 1st ammendmant rights.
As it stands now our country , laws and values have been riddled with so many hyprocrticial laws(such as this one) over the years that its no wonder so many people(young adults especially) dont participate in the political process known as electing representation..
Meh, they should just do like they do here in NY and card them when they try to buy a 17+ game. No ID, no game, simple solution. That way it forces the parent to buy it for them, thereby placing all blame on the parent for the child having the game, as it should be.
The Gov. of CA makes a good point about video games and violence, my cousin who lives in CA says that part of the law came about due to the Player Vs Player Environment in which several dozen teens who committed murders and other violent acts got the idea from playing online games that had player vs player. They named such games as World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Everquest 1 and 2 and slew of others.
I'm not in California or I don't reach much of their news. Can you post any links referring such events? Honest request.
Originally posted by Shinami
<snip>
I actually do approve of games under violent ratings to be banned to minors. Games like Rated M and AO...I mean seriously, it may be up to the parent, but this will prove that kids will just bittorent every PC game that is violent out there...or get someone to buy a rated M/AO game. It will prove that bad parenting is rampart.
<snip>
I approve because the time as minor has is very sensitive and its not about "Playing games" for 10+ hours a day and shouting swears over a microphone. That is not "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" but plain ignorance. The 1st amendment does not protect against profanity or clear and present danger. So please keep the U.S Constitution.
<snip>
You bring 2 interesting points, Shinami.
Advertisement for children is extremely regulated, if not banned in some places. Not just for toys and games, but for everything. I think it's how it should be, as children are much more gullible than adults. Otherwise video game advertisement should follow the same rules than movies according to their rating.
Your second point is about verbal violence. Since we have all these means to communicate (SMS, chatrooms, voice chat), there isn't much oversee going on to control or counter verbal violence/abuse. Sometimes it's amazing all the stuff that can be said in the 'Barrens Chat'. Stuff that anyone would get frowned at/scolded in real life.
There's a very simple solution to this: Rate games the same as movies and add similar restrictions. (i.e. A game that is rated R requires that an adult be present for a minor to purchase the game.) These laws are about assisting parents in parenting, not parenting FOR parents. A typical parent doesn't want their 14-year-old coming home from the mall with a video game of strip poker. Of course kids can work around it if they're really dead set on getting what they want (like alcohol and ciggs), but it's a deterrent, not a infallible system of corporate parenting.
You'd be surprised how many parents let their 12 year olds buy, say, GTA IV because "all my friends have it and if I don't buy it, I'll be a loser!"
Put whatever rating you want on it, it still comes down to the parents saying "No" and not trying to be their kid's best friend all the time.
I wholly agree. I know I'm running the risk of turning this into a heated debate, but it's the parents that let their child buy GTA games that makes proper parent's jobs a living nightmare.
Why is that? The guy next door letting his kid buy it doesn't affect what you allow to your own kid.
It affects the entire neighborhood in which they live unless they keep their children in the house and don't allow them to interract with other children. There's a problem with people who are so self-centered that they feel their actions do not have reaching consequences.
another nail in the coffin for the united states. I guess we live in a day and age where we no longer take responsibility for actions, and instead blame everything on someone else.
I would like to think of these incidents as few and far between, but they are increasingly becoming normal and accepted behaviors of scapgoating in both legistlation and politics.
IMO Parents are responsible for the raising of their children, a parents job is to prepare their kid for adult life ahead not to be their best friend.... and yes, I think there is a strong correlation between unwanted pre-maritial pregnanies and uncaring parents. If parents dont care for their children maybe they should require strict licensing for kids and punish bad parents, instead of attacking people who provide a service, that is protected under the 1st ammendmant rights.
As it stands now our country , laws and values have been riddled with so many hyprocrticial laws(such as this one) over the years that its no wonder so many people(young adults especially) dont participate in the political process known as electing representation..
This isn't a law for parents who won't raise their kids right as it won't help them either way, but it is intended to help kids, whose parents are trying to raise them right, to stay in line.
There's a very simple solution to this: Rate games the same as movies and add similar restrictions. (i.e. A game that is rated R requires that an adult be present for a minor to purchase the game.) These laws are about assisting parents in parenting, not parenting FOR parents. A typical parent doesn't want their 14-year-old coming home from the mall with a video game of strip poker. Of course kids can work around it if they're really dead set on getting what they want (like alcohol and ciggs), but it's a deterrent, not a infallible system of corporate parenting.
You'd be surprised how many parents let their 12 year olds buy, say, GTA IV because "all my friends have it and if I don't buy it, I'll be a loser!"
Put whatever rating you want on it, it still comes down to the parents saying "No" and not trying to be their kid's best friend all the time.
I wholly agree. I know I'm running the risk of turning this into a heated debate, but it's the parents that let their child buy GTA games that makes proper parent's jobs a living nightmare.
Why is that? The guy next door letting his kid buy it doesn't affect what you allow to your own kid.
It affects the entire neighborhood in which they live unless they keep their children in the house and don't allow them to interract with other children. There's a problem with people who are so self-centered that they feel their actions do not have reaching consequences.
Sorry but me playing a video game like GTA does not affect my neighbor unless i have the sound too high, then it's just an annoyance. To think somehow me playing a game is going to affect the next person is wrong. I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion so i'm going to step back and allow you to explain how this is even possible before i proceed further.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
There's a very simple solution to this: Rate games the same as movies and add similar restrictions. (i.e. A game that is rated R requires that an adult be present for a minor to purchase the game.) These laws are about assisting parents in parenting, not parenting FOR parents. A typical parent doesn't want their 14-year-old coming home from the mall with a video game of strip poker. Of course kids can work around it if they're really dead set on getting what they want (like alcohol and ciggs), but it's a deterrent, not a infallible system of corporate parenting.
You'd be surprised how many parents let their 12 year olds buy, say, GTA IV because "all my friends have it and if I don't buy it, I'll be a loser!"
Put whatever rating you want on it, it still comes down to the parents saying "No" and not trying to be their kid's best friend all the time.
I wholly agree. I know I'm running the risk of turning this into a heated debate, but it's the parents that let their child buy GTA games that makes proper parent's jobs a living nightmare.
Why is that? The guy next door letting his kid buy it doesn't affect what you allow to your own kid.
It affects the entire neighborhood in which they live unless they keep their children in the house and don't allow them to interract with other children. There's a problem with people who are so self-centered that they feel their actions do not have reaching consequences.
Sorry but me playing a video game like GTA does not affect my neighbor unless i have the sound too high, then it's just an annoyance. To think somehow me playing a game is going to affect the next person is wrong. I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion so i'm going to step back and allow you to explain how this is even possible before i proceed further.
Other peoples' children are my child's peers whether I like it or not, and their actions directly affect my child and my raising him. Do you realize how difficult it is to explain in terms a young man can grasp why Johnny can have GTA and he can't?
There's a very simple solution to this: Rate games the same as movies and add similar restrictions. (i.e. A game that is rated R requires that an adult be present for a minor to purchase the game.) These laws are about assisting parents in parenting, not parenting FOR parents. A typical parent doesn't want their 14-year-old coming home from the mall with a video game of strip poker. Of course kids can work around it if they're really dead set on getting what they want (like alcohol and ciggs), but it's a deterrent, not a infallible system of corporate parenting.
You'd be surprised how many parents let their 12 year olds buy, say, GTA IV because "all my friends have it and if I don't buy it, I'll be a loser!"
Put whatever rating you want on it, it still comes down to the parents saying "No" and not trying to be their kid's best friend all the time.
I wholly agree. I know I'm running the risk of turning this into a heated debate, but it's the parents that let their child buy GTA games that makes proper parent's jobs a living nightmare.
Why is that? The guy next door letting his kid buy it doesn't affect what you allow to your own kid.
It affects the entire neighborhood in which they live unless they keep their children in the house and don't allow them to interract with other children. There's a problem with people who are so self-centered that they feel their actions do not have reaching consequences.
Sorry but me playing a video game like GTA does not affect my neighbor unless i have the sound too high, then it's just an annoyance. To think somehow me playing a game is going to affect the next person is wrong. I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion so i'm going to step back and allow you to explain how this is even possible before i proceed further.
Other peoples' children are my child's peers whether I like it or not, and their actions directly affect my child and my raising him. Do you realize how difficult it is to explain in terms a young man can grasp why Johnny can have GTA and he can't?
Welcome to parent hood. You can't encroach on others people rights to have something merely because you want everything to be fair to your child. Your child has to understand not everything is fair or works the same way.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Sorry but me playing a video game like GTA does not affect my neighbor unless i have the sound too high, then it's just an annoyance. To think somehow me playing a game is going to affect the next person is wrong. I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion so i'm going to step back and allow you to explain how this is even possible before i proceed further.
Other peoples' children are my child's peers whether I like it or not, and their actions directly affect my child and my raising him. Do you realize how difficult it is to explain in terms a young man can grasp why Johnny can have GTA and he can't?
Welcome to parent hood. You can't encroach on others people rights to have something merely because you want everything to be fair to your child. Your child has to understand not everything is fair or works the same way.
You're going off on a tangent. I said that parents who let their kids have games like GTA make parenting for parents who are trying to raise their kids properly a nightmare. They do. If you still don't understand why, don't worry about asking. If you really want to know, go back and reread what I've posted. All the information is there for you.
Sorry but me playing a video game like GTA does not affect my neighbor unless i have the sound too high, then it's just an annoyance. To think somehow me playing a game is going to affect the next person is wrong. I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion so i'm going to step back and allow you to explain how this is even possible before i proceed further.
Other peoples' children are my child's peers whether I like it or not, and their actions directly affect my child and my raising him. Do you realize how difficult it is to explain in terms a young man can grasp why Johnny can have GTA and he can't?
Welcome to parent hood. You can't encroach on others people rights to have something merely because you want everything to be fair to your child. Your child has to understand not everything is fair or works the same way.
You're going off on a tangent. I said that parents who let their kids have games like GTA make parenting for parents who are trying to raise their kids properly a nightmare. They do. If you still don't understand why, don't worry about asking. If you really want to know, go back and reread what I've posted. All the information is there for you.
Okay what i read was that you thought they should change the rating system to something like the movies with an R rating. Then go off on saying how you don't want another person having GTA because then your son will want it so he doesn't look like a loser. Followed up with saying that this affects the whole neighborhood if this person has it.
Am i following right so far?
Okay let me respond point to point.
There is a rating system already in place. it's called the ESRB: www.esrb.org
Thats the rating system that games go by i'm not sure why we need to change it, it works just fine as is.
Moving on to the peer pressure part. Sadly this goes on more then we'd like it to. Someone has something and your kid wants it. You gotta find a way to break it to your child that he just can't have that item. He might not like you for it but eventually he'll (she'll) understand why you feel the way you do.
This brings me back to the neighborhood part of the conversation which i approached. How does me having GTA somehow affect everyone else or even one other person? You answered because i have it therefore it makes it difficult to tell your child why i have it and he can't.
I responded that this is a part of parenting that you have to let your kid know you have different values then me and you responded that i was going off on a tangent which i don't feel i was, then told to go back through which i did and i didn't really recieve the answer i was looking for. Unless of course i'm missing something that you've said.
Edit: saw that last statement in the post, no idea how i missed it. Anyway, this again is a part of parenting, you can't expect someone else to not buy something for their kid merely so it's easier on you to do parenting.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Sorry but me playing a video game like GTA does not affect my neighbor unless i have the sound too high, then it's just an annoyance. To think somehow me playing a game is going to affect the next person is wrong. I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion so i'm going to step back and allow you to explain how this is even possible before i proceed further.
Other peoples' children are my child's peers whether I like it or not, and their actions directly affect my child and my raising him. Do you realize how difficult it is to explain in terms a young man can grasp why Johnny can have GTA and he can't?
Welcome to parent hood. You can't encroach on others people rights to have something merely because you want everything to be fair to your child. Your child has to understand not everything is fair or works the same way.
You're going off on a tangent. I said that parents who let their kids have games like GTA make parenting for parents who are trying to raise their kids properly a nightmare. They do. If you still don't understand why, don't worry about asking. If you really want to know, go back and reread what I've posted. All the information is there for you.
Okay what i read was that you thought they should change the rating system to something like the movies with an R rating. Then go off on saying how you don't want another person having GTA because then your son will want it so he doesn't look like a loser. Followed up with saying that this affects the whole neighborhood if this person has it.
Am i following right so far?
Okay let me respond point to point.
There is a rating system already in place. it's called the ESRB: www.esrb.org
Thats the rating system that games go by i'm not sure why we need to change it, it works just fine as is.
Moving on to the peer pressure part. Sadly this goes on more then we'd like it to. Someone has something and your kid wants it. You gotta find a way to break it to your child that he just can't have that item. He might not like you for it but eventually he'll (she'll) understand why you feel the way you do.
This brings me back to the neighborhood part of the conversation which i approached. How does me having GTA somehow affect everyone else or even one other person? You answered because i have it therefore it makes it difficult to tell your child why i have it and he can't.
I responded that this is a part of parenting that you have to let your kid know you have different values then me and you responded that i was going off on a tangent which i don't feel i was, then told to go back through which i did and i didn't really recieve the answer i was looking for. Unless of course i'm missing something that you've said.
Edit: saw that last statement in the post, no idea how i missed it. Anyway, this again is a part of parenting, you can't expect someone else to not buy something for their kid merely so it's easier on you to do parenting.
I never said that people should or should not do anything because it makes parenting harder. It would be nice, sure, but that wasn't the point. The point I was making is that it does make parenting harder. When it comes to raising kids, there are things that can happen that can get your kid on a slippery slope real fast.
Also, I know about the ESRB. I am posting on an MMORPG site. But the point is that the ESRB rating means nothing if a 9-year-old can go in and buy a copy of GTA without his parents knowing about it. If the ESRB rating says M, then an adult should be required to be present to allow a minor to buy it.
The reason that I brought up the movie rating system is because, in this article, it hinted to the issue of Theseus' paradox inherent in the bill. At what point is a creature too human-like to kill? The movie rating system as it stands is an excellent model for how it should be handled. If a title is rated M, then an adult or guardian needs to be present for a minor to purchase the game. Just like in a movie, if the title is rated R, then a child cannot see the movie without an adult parent or guardian present.
Sorry but me playing a video game like GTA does not affect my neighbor unless i have the sound too high, then it's just an annoyance. To think somehow me playing a game is going to affect the next person is wrong. I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion so i'm going to step back and allow you to explain how this is even possible before i proceed further.
Other peoples' children are my child's peers whether I like it or not, and their actions directly affect my child and my raising him. Do you realize how difficult it is to explain in terms a young man can grasp why Johnny can have GTA and he can't?
Welcome to parent hood. You can't encroach on others people rights to have something merely because you want everything to be fair to your child. Your child has to understand not everything is fair or works the same way.
You're going off on a tangent. I said that parents who let their kids have games like GTA make parenting for parents who are trying to raise their kids properly a nightmare. They do. If you still don't understand why, don't worry about asking. If you really want to know, go back and reread what I've posted. All the information is there for you.
Okay what i read was that you thought they should change the rating system to something like the movies with an R rating. Then go off on saying how you don't want another person having GTA because then your son will want it so he doesn't look like a loser. Followed up with saying that this affects the whole neighborhood if this person has it.
Am i following right so far?
Okay let me respond point to point.
There is a rating system already in place. it's called the ESRB: www.esrb.org
Thats the rating system that games go by i'm not sure why we need to change it, it works just fine as is.
Moving on to the peer pressure part. Sadly this goes on more then we'd like it to. Someone has something and your kid wants it. You gotta find a way to break it to your child that he just can't have that item. He might not like you for it but eventually he'll (she'll) understand why you feel the way you do.
This brings me back to the neighborhood part of the conversation which i approached. How does me having GTA somehow affect everyone else or even one other person? You answered because i have it therefore it makes it difficult to tell your child why i have it and he can't.
I responded that this is a part of parenting that you have to let your kid know you have different values then me and you responded that i was going off on a tangent which i don't feel i was, then told to go back through which i did and i didn't really recieve the answer i was looking for. Unless of course i'm missing something that you've said.
Edit: saw that last statement in the post, no idea how i missed it. Anyway, this again is a part of parenting, you can't expect someone else to not buy something for their kid merely so it's easier on you to do parenting.
I never said that people should or should not do anything because it makes parenting harder. It would be nice, sure, but that wasn't the point. The point I was making is that it does make parenting harder. When it comes to raising kids, there are things that can happen that can get your kid on a slippery slope real fast.
I agree it makes parenting harder it immediately brings up the question why can't i have something someone else has?This however can come up in any circumstance. Lets say Timmy has a GI joe. your kid wants one but you don't like the military and rather your kid wasn't exposed to GI joes. You tell him no. Your now in the exact same situation with the GI Joe that you are with the game.
That is a direct part of parenting. laying the ground rules. Things get hard in parenting and theres no real good guide book to tell you how.
Back on topic though, changing a rating system or having the goverment do it doesn't help parenting because it just copies whats already in place in a different format of what is already there. It does however paint a bigger aspect of what can be included in violence and be deemed unsafe for certain publics which encroaches on freedom of speech and art. two things which are never good. It allows certain figures to say we shouldn't allow things like these in games and it's the goverments jobs to stamp it out. Your now enforcing it but it's ineffective, kids are still getting a hold of it from other kids, get rid of it all together or censor it so our children don't see it even by accident.
Theres another slippery slope we have to becareful of and thats people who just don't like games and are advocating to censor it as much as possible because they feel it has more affect on people because they are actually "doing" these things instead of just watching it. So they try to change, tweek and adjust the laws until they get enough of a foothold in to say well now that you've gone this far one more step should make our kids safe at last. Make it so violence can't be shown in any game.
I'm not for violence for the sake of violence but sometimes it is part of the story to make it more believable or more true to real life. Thats not to say i want to see a man or be the man beating someone in the face 30 times merely because i can however, some of our classics had a ton of violence in them. I'm ranting and going off again (sorry) but i don't like laws that can open flood gates to other things that can potentionally hurt my future employment (yes i do work in the industry)
To wrap up. To change the law doesn't do anything but make it easier to include lesser violent things in with more violent when the current ones already in place seperates it just fine in my opinion, and the new one won't really help with the parenting as that to can be circumvented the same way as this one can. Having someone else buy something for that kid.
Just my view on the subject but if i was in californa i would vote this law down myself.
Edit: tricky person, edited on me while i was typing. Yes a parent should be there to buy something above the rating. The rating system as it stands is teen, mature, adult only with everything else being everyone with only E10 being for 10 and above. That means the content for teen is suitable for ages 13 and up, mature 17 and up and AO 18 and up, this is how it works in movies, no reason to change just change the name. If the kid is young enough (below 16) to purchase a game that will have violence where are the parents? why are they not with that kid to inspect what he buys? I know you want your kid to be safe when he goes out but frankly making the stores liable for a product is just going to make them not want to carry the product for fear of getting fined if one of their employees accidently sells a game mixed in with other games to a minor. Thus lowers sales, thus makes games like the ones others might enjoy more scarce to find.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Sorry but me playing a video game like GTA does not affect my neighbor unless i have the sound too high, then it's just an annoyance. To think somehow me playing a game is going to affect the next person is wrong. I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion so i'm going to step back and allow you to explain how this is even possible before i proceed further.
Other peoples' children are my child's peers whether I like it or not, and their actions directly affect my child and my raising him. Do you realize how difficult it is to explain in terms a young man can grasp why Johnny can have GTA and he can't?
Welcome to parent hood. You can't encroach on others people rights to have something merely because you want everything to be fair to your child. Your child has to understand not everything is fair or works the same way.
You're going off on a tangent. I said that parents who let their kids have games like GTA make parenting for parents who are trying to raise their kids properly a nightmare. They do. If you still don't understand why, don't worry about asking. If you really want to know, go back and reread what I've posted. All the information is there for you.
Okay what i read was that you thought they should change the rating system to something like the movies with an R rating. Then go off on saying how you don't want another person having GTA because then your son will want it so he doesn't look like a loser. Followed up with saying that this affects the whole neighborhood if this person has it.
Am i following right so far?
Okay let me respond point to point.
There is a rating system already in place. it's called the ESRB: www.esrb.org
Thats the rating system that games go by i'm not sure why we need to change it, it works just fine as is.
Moving on to the peer pressure part. Sadly this goes on more then we'd like it to. Someone has something and your kid wants it. You gotta find a way to break it to your child that he just can't have that item. He might not like you for it but eventually he'll (she'll) understand why you feel the way you do.
This brings me back to the neighborhood part of the conversation which i approached. How does me having GTA somehow affect everyone else or even one other person? You answered because i have it therefore it makes it difficult to tell your child why i have it and he can't.
I responded that this is a part of parenting that you have to let your kid know you have different values then me and you responded that i was going off on a tangent which i don't feel i was, then told to go back through which i did and i didn't really recieve the answer i was looking for. Unless of course i'm missing something that you've said.
Edit: saw that last statement in the post, no idea how i missed it. Anyway, this again is a part of parenting, you can't expect someone else to not buy something for their kid merely so it's easier on you to do parenting.
I never said that people should or should not do anything because it makes parenting harder. It would be nice, sure, but that wasn't the point. The point I was making is that it does make parenting harder. When it comes to raising kids, there are things that can happen that can get your kid on a slippery slope real fast.
I agree it makes parenting harder it immediately brings up the question why can't i have something someone else has?This however can come up in any circumstance. Lets say Timmy has a GI joe. your kid wants one but you don't like the military and rather your kid wasn't exposed to GI joes. You tell him no. Your now in the exact same situation with the GI Joe that you are with the game.
That is a direct part of parenting. laying the ground rules. Things get hard in parenting and theres no real good guide book to tell you how.
Back on topic though, changing a rating system or having the goverment do it doesn't help parenting because it just copies whats already in place in a different format of what is already there. It does however paint a bigger aspect of what can be included in violence and be deemed unsafe for certain publics which encroaches on freedom of speech and art. two things which are never good. It allows certain figures to say we shouldn't allow things like these in games and it's the goverments jobs to stamp it out. Your now enforcing it but it's ineffective, kids are still getting a hold of it from other kids, get rid of it all together or censor it so our children don't see it even by accident.
Theres another slippery slope we have to becareful of and thats people who just don't like games and are advocating to censor it as much as possible because they feel it has more affect on people because they are actually "doing" these things instead of just watching it. So they try to change, tweek and adjust the laws until they get enough of a foothold in to say well now that you've gone this far one more step should make our kids safe at last. Make it so violence can't be shown in any game.
I'm not for violence for the sake of violence but sometimes it is part of the story to make it more believable or more true to real life. Thats not to say i want to see a man or be the man beating someone in the face 30 times merely because i can however, some of our classics had a ton of violence in them. I'm ranting and going off again (sorry) but i don't like laws that can open flood gates to other things that can potentionally hurt my future employment (yes i do work in the industry)
To wrap up. To change the law doesn't do anything but make it easier to include lesser violent things in with more violent when the current ones already in place seperates it just fine in my opinion, and the new one won't really help with the parenting as that to can be circumvented the same way as this one can. Having someone else buy something for that kid.
Just my view on the subject but if i was in californa i would vote this law down myself.
If you haven't seen it yet, I did edit my original post.
The MPAA and lawful enforcement didn't kill the movie industry. I'm not sure why there's such a knee-jerk reaction when it comes to games. Though, I imagine the same outcry happened when the MPAA started rating movies and it became unlawful for a lone minor to see a movie that's rated R.
Edit: tricky person, edited on me while i was typing. Yes a parent should be there to buy something above the rating. The rating system as it stands is teen, mature, adult only with everything else being everyone with only E10 being for 10 and above. That means the content for teen is suitable for ages 13 and up, mature 17 and up and AO 18 and up, this is how it works in movies, no reason to change just change the name. If the kid is young enough (below 16) to purchase a game that will have violence where are the parents? why are they not with that kid to inspect what he buys? I know you want your kid to be safe when he goes out but frankly making the stores liable for a product is just going to make them not want to carry the product for fear of getting fined if one of their employees accidently sells a game mixed in with other games to a minor. Thus lowers sales, thus makes games like the ones others might enjoy more scarce to find.
That's the problem. In the current situation, a parent does not NEED to be present for a child to buy an adult game. That's what this bill is intending to fix. The problem with the bill is that it's trying to crudely emulate a rating system which the ESRB rating system should be its basis.
(left out all the rest it was getting too long to quote)
The outcry is not for the rating system itself as it's redundant as something almost exactly like it is already in place. It's the idea that it goes from a guidance program where parents police their kids to the goverment policing the stores sales. Trust me if the goverment gets involved it gets messy real quick. They like to throw fines like it's no tomorrow. Then theres ease of blaming the store for selling the game instead of the parent policing their child removing that responsibility that should be on the parent instead of the store. The store is selling the product, it's behind closed glass cases or behind the counter in most cases or somewhere where the kid can't get a hold of it. So the current rating system should be enough
Then you got special interest groups coming in trying to change the meaning on things. It's not the here and now we "knee jerk " to it's the possible things this kind of thing can lead to. Better to nip it in the butt now before the dam breaks so to speak.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Comments
And rightly so? I hope you're not talking about the American Dream of censoring drugs, alcohol and nudity from children.
Hiding things from children increases their curiosity about it. It gives the hidden object a sort of mysterious property that encourages them to go seek it. Eventually it develops an underground feel about it and they're less likely to be honest about their exposure. Let them drink a little alcohol with dinner and they're less inclined to binge when they have their first taste. Don't claim human nudity is indecent (well, there are exceptions) and they're less likely to hide their sexual activities from you. If they expect you're going to punish them, of course they won't tell you.
Disagree? Let the country's youth's current state be a case study for you.
THAT ALL ASIDE... I agree, overdone violence should be hidden as an exception to my rule. You don't want them to grow up and even have the option to run through the streets with an uzi shooting people willy nilly.
I'm only acting out because I didn't get to kill anything.
Hate to double post, but this was in response to Ozmodan.
I'm only acting out because I didn't get to kill anything.
There's a very simple solution to this: Rate games the same as movies and add similar restrictions. (i.e. A game that is rated R requires that an adult be present for a minor to purchase the game.) These laws are about assisting parents in parenting, not parenting FOR parents. A typical parent doesn't want their 14-year-old coming home from the mall with a video game of strip poker. Of course kids can work around it if they're really dead set on getting what they want (like alcohol and ciggs), but it's a deterrent, not a infallible system of corporate parenting.
There's no nice way to put this, but you're wrong all around on this thought process. The first part of parenting is to acknowledge and understand the existence of something that's bad for your child (drugs). Following that, you have to talk to your kid about it and let him know why it isn't good for him. Then explain that you never, ever want them doing it. After that, you have to keep exposure to it to a minimum to prevent desensitization.
You'd be surprised how many parents let their 12 year olds buy, say, GTA IV because "all my friends have it and if I don't buy it, I'll be a loser!"
Put whatever rating you want on it, it still comes down to the parents saying "No" and not trying to be their kid's best friend all the time.
I wholly agree. I know I'm running the risk of turning this into a heated debate, but it's the parents that let their child buy GTA games that makes proper parent's jobs a living nightmare.
Why is that? The guy next door letting his kid buy it doesn't affect what you allow to your own kid.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
The governor is always named in lawsuits such as this in California. Just like the prop 8 one, he was named even though he opposed the law and was speaking against it actively.
another nail in the coffin for the united states. I guess we live in a day and age where we no longer take responsibility for actions, and instead blame everything on someone else.
I would like to think of these incidents as few and far between, but they are increasingly becoming normal and accepted behaviors of scapgoating in both legistlation and politics.
IMO Parents are responsible for the raising of their children, a parents job is to prepare their kid for adult life ahead not to be their best friend.... and yes, I think there is a strong correlation between unwanted pre-maritial pregnanies and uncaring parents. If parents dont care for their children maybe they should require strict licensing for kids and punish bad parents, instead of attacking people who provide a service, that is protected under the 1st ammendmant rights.
As it stands now our country , laws and values have been riddled with so many hyprocrticial laws(such as this one) over the years that its no wonder so many people(young adults especially) dont participate in the political process known as electing representation..
Meh, they should just do like they do here in NY and card them when they try to buy a 17+ game. No ID, no game, simple solution. That way it forces the parent to buy it for them, thereby placing all blame on the parent for the child having the game, as it should be.
I'm not in California or I don't reach much of their news. Can you post any links referring such events? Honest request.
You bring 2 interesting points, Shinami.
Advertisement for children is extremely regulated, if not banned in some places. Not just for toys and games, but for everything. I think it's how it should be, as children are much more gullible than adults. Otherwise video game advertisement should follow the same rules than movies according to their rating.
Your second point is about verbal violence. Since we have all these means to communicate (SMS, chatrooms, voice chat), there isn't much oversee going on to control or counter verbal violence/abuse. Sometimes it's amazing all the stuff that can be said in the 'Barrens Chat'. Stuff that anyone would get frowned at/scolded in real life.
Get to the choppa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
It affects the entire neighborhood in which they live unless they keep their children in the house and don't allow them to interract with other children. There's a problem with people who are so self-centered that they feel their actions do not have reaching consequences.
This isn't a law for parents who won't raise their kids right as it won't help them either way, but it is intended to help kids, whose parents are trying to raise them right, to stay in line.
Sorry but me playing a video game like GTA does not affect my neighbor unless i have the sound too high, then it's just an annoyance. To think somehow me playing a game is going to affect the next person is wrong. I just don't understand how you came to this conclusion so i'm going to step back and allow you to explain how this is even possible before i proceed further.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Other peoples' children are my child's peers whether I like it or not, and their actions directly affect my child and my raising him. Do you realize how difficult it is to explain in terms a young man can grasp why Johnny can have GTA and he can't?
if a person murders another in the name of jesus christ, do you think we can get the bible banned too?
well, one can always dream.
Welcome to parent hood. You can't encroach on others people rights to have something merely because you want everything to be fair to your child. Your child has to understand not everything is fair or works the same way.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
You're going off on a tangent. I said that parents who let their kids have games like GTA make parenting for parents who are trying to raise their kids properly a nightmare. They do. If you still don't understand why, don't worry about asking. If you really want to know, go back and reread what I've posted. All the information is there for you.
Okay what i read was that you thought they should change the rating system to something like the movies with an R rating. Then go off on saying how you don't want another person having GTA because then your son will want it so he doesn't look like a loser. Followed up with saying that this affects the whole neighborhood if this person has it.
Am i following right so far?
Okay let me respond point to point.
There is a rating system already in place. it's called the ESRB: www.esrb.org
Thats the rating system that games go by i'm not sure why we need to change it, it works just fine as is.
Moving on to the peer pressure part. Sadly this goes on more then we'd like it to. Someone has something and your kid wants it. You gotta find a way to break it to your child that he just can't have that item. He might not like you for it but eventually he'll (she'll) understand why you feel the way you do.
This brings me back to the neighborhood part of the conversation which i approached. How does me having GTA somehow affect everyone else or even one other person? You answered because i have it therefore it makes it difficult to tell your child why i have it and he can't.
I responded that this is a part of parenting that you have to let your kid know you have different values then me and you responded that i was going off on a tangent which i don't feel i was, then told to go back through which i did and i didn't really recieve the answer i was looking for. Unless of course i'm missing something that you've said.
Edit: saw that last statement in the post, no idea how i missed it. Anyway, this again is a part of parenting, you can't expect someone else to not buy something for their kid merely so it's easier on you to do parenting.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I never said that people should or should not do anything because it makes parenting harder. It would be nice, sure, but that wasn't the point. The point I was making is that it does make parenting harder. When it comes to raising kids, there are things that can happen that can get your kid on a slippery slope real fast.
Also, I know about the ESRB. I am posting on an MMORPG site. But the point is that the ESRB rating means nothing if a 9-year-old can go in and buy a copy of GTA without his parents knowing about it. If the ESRB rating says M, then an adult should be required to be present to allow a minor to buy it.
The reason that I brought up the movie rating system is because, in this article, it hinted to the issue of Theseus' paradox inherent in the bill. At what point is a creature too human-like to kill? The movie rating system as it stands is an excellent model for how it should be handled. If a title is rated M, then an adult or guardian needs to be present for a minor to purchase the game. Just like in a movie, if the title is rated R, then a child cannot see the movie without an adult parent or guardian present.
I agree it makes parenting harder it immediately brings up the question why can't i have something someone else has?This however can come up in any circumstance. Lets say Timmy has a GI joe. your kid wants one but you don't like the military and rather your kid wasn't exposed to GI joes. You tell him no. Your now in the exact same situation with the GI Joe that you are with the game.
That is a direct part of parenting. laying the ground rules. Things get hard in parenting and theres no real good guide book to tell you how.
Back on topic though, changing a rating system or having the goverment do it doesn't help parenting because it just copies whats already in place in a different format of what is already there. It does however paint a bigger aspect of what can be included in violence and be deemed unsafe for certain publics which encroaches on freedom of speech and art. two things which are never good. It allows certain figures to say we shouldn't allow things like these in games and it's the goverments jobs to stamp it out. Your now enforcing it but it's ineffective, kids are still getting a hold of it from other kids, get rid of it all together or censor it so our children don't see it even by accident.
Theres another slippery slope we have to becareful of and thats people who just don't like games and are advocating to censor it as much as possible because they feel it has more affect on people because they are actually "doing" these things instead of just watching it. So they try to change, tweek and adjust the laws until they get enough of a foothold in to say well now that you've gone this far one more step should make our kids safe at last. Make it so violence can't be shown in any game.
I'm not for violence for the sake of violence but sometimes it is part of the story to make it more believable or more true to real life. Thats not to say i want to see a man or be the man beating someone in the face 30 times merely because i can however, some of our classics had a ton of violence in them. I'm ranting and going off again (sorry) but i don't like laws that can open flood gates to other things that can potentionally hurt my future employment (yes i do work in the industry)
To wrap up. To change the law doesn't do anything but make it easier to include lesser violent things in with more violent when the current ones already in place seperates it just fine in my opinion, and the new one won't really help with the parenting as that to can be circumvented the same way as this one can. Having someone else buy something for that kid.
Just my view on the subject but if i was in californa i would vote this law down myself.
Edit: tricky person, edited on me while i was typing. Yes a parent should be there to buy something above the rating. The rating system as it stands is teen, mature, adult only with everything else being everyone with only E10 being for 10 and above. That means the content for teen is suitable for ages 13 and up, mature 17 and up and AO 18 and up, this is how it works in movies, no reason to change just change the name. If the kid is young enough (below 16) to purchase a game that will have violence where are the parents? why are they not with that kid to inspect what he buys? I know you want your kid to be safe when he goes out but frankly making the stores liable for a product is just going to make them not want to carry the product for fear of getting fined if one of their employees accidently sells a game mixed in with other games to a minor. Thus lowers sales, thus makes games like the ones others might enjoy more scarce to find.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
If you haven't seen it yet, I did edit my original post.
The MPAA and lawful enforcement didn't kill the movie industry. I'm not sure why there's such a knee-jerk reaction when it comes to games. Though, I imagine the same outcry happened when the MPAA started rating movies and it became unlawful for a lone minor to see a movie that's rated R.
That's the problem. In the current situation, a parent does not NEED to be present for a child to buy an adult game. That's what this bill is intending to fix. The problem with the bill is that it's trying to crudely emulate a rating system which the ESRB rating system should be its basis.
(left out all the rest it was getting too long to quote)
The outcry is not for the rating system itself as it's redundant as something almost exactly like it is already in place. It's the idea that it goes from a guidance program where parents police their kids to the goverment policing the stores sales. Trust me if the goverment gets involved it gets messy real quick. They like to throw fines like it's no tomorrow. Then theres ease of blaming the store for selling the game instead of the parent policing their child removing that responsibility that should be on the parent instead of the store. The store is selling the product, it's behind closed glass cases or behind the counter in most cases or somewhere where the kid can't get a hold of it. So the current rating system should be enough
Then you got special interest groups coming in trying to change the meaning on things. It's not the here and now we "knee jerk " to it's the possible things this kind of thing can lead to. Better to nip it in the butt now before the dam breaks so to speak.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.