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Why can't PvP matter more than gear today?
chrisel
Member UncommonPosts: 990
After reading a thread here where someone pointed out that PvP does not matter anymore, other than gear, I shamefully must agree; I do PvP for the gear myself. I am addicted to PvP, and I used for years to passionately fight enemy players that attacked my factions towns. I now sit here tasting on this feeling I got after reading those comments and have a foul taste in my mouth. This is somehat an upside-down "eureka" experience I got, but it tastes bad; I am becoming apathic too.
Way too many times I have tried to rally my side when enemy players have invaded us. Way too many times I have tried to fight the enemies alone & horribly outnumbered. All for nothing and most of the time for less than that; being defeated. These dissapointments are definatley the reasons that I have become numb & near give a damn about enemy players in our towns. I can still feel some anger and the need of retaliation when I see these players inside our towns, but thats a dwindling feeling that I fear is soon dead & gone for good.
Years ago, I fought the enemies with an eager passion. Today I fight them mostly out of 'old days habit' & my RP duty. If this is to continue, we might as well remove factions completely, cause right now theres barely any reasons at all of having different factions.
Where did it all go wrong? What can be done to restore the situation? I really want the feeling of fighting a true enemy, not just someone who's there just out of sheer boredom.
-Chris
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Comments
It went wrong when people who wanted to win at any cost berated those who didn't share that attitude.
"GET OUT OF THE TOWN NAO... WE'RE UNDER ATTACK YOU COWARDS!"
People tend to respond the other way to these type of 'rallying' cries. These motivators also bought tons of gold to win, used hack programs and resorted to gank tactics to try and throughly crush the will of the opposing team to fight back. How many times have you heard "Yeah, we beat them so bad, they don't come here anymore hahaha!"
If you want to know where the competiveness went, blame those who are SUPER competitive who cheated, belittled and cared little more about anyone else except their personal rankings and not wanting to die/lose gear/lose reps/lose whatever they had to lose.
"TO MICHAEL!"
MMO PvP have always been gear/char level dependent.
Get levels, get gear, faceroll, win.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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I think a large part of this is that victories/defeats in PvP really are pretty meaningless in online games. You end up fightin over pixels that really only have symbolic value. The enemies you killed will respawn, the destroyed towns will be rebuilt. You are stuck in an endless cycle of fighting. Once the excitement wears off you will be going through the motions with things mattering less and less. Your first victory is sweet, your 258th feels like going to work every morning and doing the same job you did for the last ten years.
The key to staying excited is to challenge yourself more and more and try new ways of doing things rather than repeating the same rituals over and over.
i disagree with OP
gear does not matter more then pvp. as a mater of fact an ONLY pve mmo wont go all that far these days. pvp is a huge part of mmos. gear is only a cheap way to add a feel of progression in an otherwise very repetitive game.
lets' face it most mmos are very repetitive, but the most distinctive feature of all mmos is progression, almost endless progression. this is only possilbe with endless new content. now content, like quests, dungoens, crafting, etc is very time consuming (and therfore expencive) for developers, instead of adding that content, just add new gear which requires some sort of grind to get.
they know you like to pvp, they know you like to have the best gear aveilable to be competitive, and the easiest way to give you a false sense of progression is to continuely release new "improved" gear. it's very simple actually. as long as you have something to achieve (new gear) you will continue to play and you wont get bored.
I do not agree. Not in any game that I played have cheating been an issue. I left them games before cheating became a problem. My biggest experience with PvP comes from 3 games; Anacrhy Online, Star Wars Galaxies and last World of Warcraft.
The problems as I see it, comes from the gaming publishers themself; they do not give any reasons at all to defend. There are 'some' bonuses for attacking towns, but about none for defending them. People have more to gain from entering a Battle Ground than staying to defend their 'own ground'. This is a huge negative side to me. When everyone grinds for gear, what is the point in the end, since gear is all that matters anyway? Sigh, I am becoming very frustrated by this creeping feeling I suddenly got; I now definately realize what's lacking from my MMO gaming:
I need a reason to fight the enemy! My current game does not provide this. Not even close. The game excels in almost every way. It fails utterly there. I admit that now. Which depresses me. Help... Sigh.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I feel you have the cart before the horse.
Developers are giving rewards for PVP, because they realize that the PvP crowd is relatively small compared to the overall population. Using your WoW world, the end game pvp is WinterGrasp, but what does controlling it give you? Access to a few more merchants, a few more items and increased points in dungeon runs, so the most of it you can do without worrying about WG, maybe not as quickly but then again CareBears aren't in a hurry.
In short PVP has always been meaningless or next to it to the majority of the population.
Theres still people who enjoy PvP. I personally love World PVP. All PVP in fact. I like competition period. Its not about gear to me, its about having fun. The gear is bonus, something to aim for. But just because i get a full set of pvp gear doesnt mean i feel like im done. Hell no, im gonna go at it even harder now!
I personally think its what YOU make of it though. Just because others opinions are negative, or your the only person defending your town, dont let that get ya down. I have fun being the lone defender sometimes. If i die, ill usually try to sneak around, wait for afew moments and let them think i moved on, then pick the nearest clothie and unload. Healers usually. If i can pick off afew, i feel like ive done my job!
Anyways, dont let others get ya down, or change the way you feel and play. You should try to find others who feel like you do. Get a guild together that enjoys world pvp and set up events. Take the guild down and sac a town for awhile. The bigger the better. Just dont forget your doing this to have fun. If the fun stops for you, its probably time to take a break. Through the many years ive played ive taken quite a few breaks from the genre.
PvP is end game content and not for everyone. We cannot make other players defend (or attack) an enemy force even if the game is set up that way. Even Darkfall has it's share of sheep who stay hidden or within the safety of towns.
The best way to find enjoyable PvP experience, is to find a core group of PvP like minded players and move from game to game with them.
Good Luck
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
The game cannot really provide you with a good reason for fighting since all the reasons it could provide are fake to begin with. The only 'real' reasons are those that the players create for themselves.
The reason why people want to get gear for PvP is because they are not really excited about the PvP to begin with.
I'm not sure where you are getting your info from, but I believe the majority of players enjoy a mix of PvE and PvP. How much players enjoy each of these varies greatly, but I have met very few players who only enjoy PvE or only enjoy PvP.
agree with the first part of your response and disagree with the second.
The reason people want gear for pvp is to have even a prayer of competing. When you take the average player up against a hard core player, you will find that the hard core player generally has better equipment both in game and out, when you roll in the fact that tactics has very little to do with anything in most pvp, it makes the gear paramount.
I don't believe I said only in my post. I'm talking about their main reason to play. And I'm getting my information from years of playing and being on this kind of board since the days of EQ1. And even before that in years of DMing DnD, most people don't want to kill other people, they just want to have fun.
Personally i've never pvp'd for gear, I just end up having gear for pvp. I pvp for the fun of it, that's the only 'reason' I need.
You mention 'rallying the troops' and the like OP, in the past I have been in similar situations and it can be annoying, sometimes it's good just to step back, stop trying to lead and get back to basics, i.e. just pvping for a laugh and not for some objective. It's nice to have a mix of days of factional/guild/domination pvp and days where you just do it for no reason other then the fun of it and to hell with the 'consequences'.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The problems as I see it, comes from the gaming publishers themself; they do not give any reasons at all to defend. There are 'some' bonuses for attacking towns, but about none for defending them.
People have more to gain from entering a Battle Ground than staying to defend their 'own ground'. This is a huge negative side to me. When everyone grinds for gear, what is the point in the end, since gear is all that matters anyway? Sigh, I am becoming very frustrated by this creeping feeling I suddenly got; I now definately realize what's lacking from my MMO gaming:
I played Aion for a year. And if you had played that one you'd agree with me a little more.
It's not a blanket all thing you're describing with companies. In AION, they give people a reason to PvP.
If your side contols forts or areas, it unlocks other things where you can fight bosses for loot/PvP item points. So the MORE you PvP and win in forts, the MORE PvP strength you gain vs your opponent. There isn't much more need to give incentive for players than that. Fight and win, you get more.
But people in AIOn stopped fighting once a side started losing. Sometimes it was strategy, sometimes it was skill, sometimes it was gear (lots of times), and sometimes it was cheating. But the point was after a bit, people on one side quit trying. It had nothing to do with the company really.
The more one side started to lose, you had the ubers berating the losing side trying to "embarrass" them into PvPing. This never worked and if anything, people made a special attempt NOT to go to an area to defend (I know I did when I say those morons yelling).
People don't always have things to gain from fighting in a zone like you say either; some games its smarter to NOT fight. If people are playing PvP for PERSONAL rankings (which a lot do) they want to be known as #1 or whatever. And in many games if you die, you LOSE status or rank, or ability to buy gear. So the way you keep it is to pick easy opponents or fights. In Aion, once you got officer status, people stayed away from PvP fights a lot unless they had a huge grp to protect them because you lost points when you died.
"TO MICHAEL!"
You forgot to add class as a factor
Wow! I take it you guys never played UO? Dueling naked at brit gate around 3am? Of course now UO is just another item>skill game but back before T2a and even a bit after it was the PvP game from god! imo of course.
I do enjoy PvE a bit too but killing AI all day would make me wanna just die. PvP or should I say skill based PvP doesn't really exist anymore. Since EQ and WoW almost all company do the same thing now. GW2, STTOR these new amazing games are just another WoW clone in a different package and everyone understands it but it's a different version so they buy it and the GD's are like Yay! money! Let's do it again! This is so easy why truly be creative when you can just copy and paste, right?
Age of Conan did try I give them and A- for effort . I mean combo's for melee chars what a simple yet great way to make it skill based for melee. Although, look at the game now some new GD comes in and goes WoW clone crazy with horse racing?
Darkfall is as close as it gets to what I want from PvP and I might go back to it since content does matter more to me than graphics.
Another thing I find funny is the fact the the Role playing types say that FFA PvP is bad but imo UO had the best Role Playing ever. I've never seen a GM help make a town for RP's before nor help with numerus weddings ton's of events man no other game comes close to that type of Role Playing even PK's would join in for the fun of it at times. FFA PvP brought the RPing type players together in a way most games can't.
Just my 2cents
EDIT: This post got me a bit nostalgic..
http://gamerlimit.com/2009/12/tales-of-an-omnipotent-public-servant-part-6-i-now-pronounce-you/
Simple answer? Because, people don't drop stuff when killed anymore. What's the point if you don't gain anything other than just killing them? I love pvp and wouldn't mind just killing them but taking their gold or something would be nice too.
If you choose to play fake PVP games, don't complain about fake PVP.
If you want real PVP, play FPSes, RTSes, Fighting, and similar genres. Basically games with minimal amounts of non-skill factors.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I completely agree with this. MMO PVP can be fun, but there are far too many variables for it to ever be based mainly on skill.
What? Did you just wake up? I chose not to play those types however, if you are insisting that if it's an MMO it can't be a real PvP game then you must have bumped your head. Also, I do play FPS's mostly just CS:S since it is the only one without many major issues with Hitreg and the rest. Even FPS's have similar issues...
Try Darkfall?
Plenty of reason to defend or you will lose your city/hamlet/gear which can feel like getting physically punched in the stomach. The elation acheived from winning is extreme as well.
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Traditional RPGs are about stats and using the right ablity at the right times,they are not about twitch reactions,hand-eye coordination or athletic ability.Traditional MMORPGs are RPGs so follow suit.If you choose to paly such a game do not complain about it's conventions,you should of known what to expect jsut from the genre.
Now if your tlaking about other genres of MMOs(which are sorely lacking btw) or hybrid MMOs that lighten ythe RPG elements and replace them with action or other genre elements then you have a case for PvP being based mroe on reaction speed etc than stats and timing.I will agree some of the hybrids we've sene have failed at that.
Thank you Drakynn, I had forgotten this as favorite point of mine.
In an RPG, the character/their stats/their gear are their physical body and you are the brain. RPGs are not meant to measure your hand eye coordination, your ability to swing an axe in such away to avoid your opponents shield and not even your reaction time and twitch skills.
Because it would force devs to make games which are more complex and actually enjoyable, without that small carrot on very looooong stick. Additionally it would require the culture change between pvp interested MMORPG gamers, most of them are not interested in the fair ground competition.
MMOs are not FPS'S. If you want circle jerking and bunny hopping to matter go play an FPS. RPGs are about tactics, preparation, and timing.