Another great read . Unfortunatly thereis a growing group of people who prefer to see the glass as half empty. It is very fashonable to bash some game, often for issues thathave long since been addressed.
I'm older than most here and hope I never loose the ability to get exited about some new game coming up. Some will be to my liking, some not. These same games will be loved by some and hated by people who find it just isn't the game for them. No game is right for everyone.
One thing people seem to miss is hat the games they gush about were also their first games. They were more exiting because they were new..some were even good, some not.
Second, i can understand the views of the "doubtful gamer" as they'd like to be called as least for now. They want a good game and thats fine, heck i'm doubtful of some games at first to. I think doubtful gamer is a mindset towards a certain game(s) more so then a particular group of people.
A person might be doubtful of a genre but like a few games in it that surpass the others (in their mind) but can stille be doubtful of the genre and not take everything as truth (I'm doubtful of the FPS genre but things like ME2 and Fallout stand out because they add features that make it fun for me). While I also think some here are placing themselves in the doubtful gamer when they might more fit discouraged gamer instead. However these are just subsets of the issue. They just aren't seeing whats so great about whats coming up ahead and trying to figure out why everyone else is (i'm doubtful of GW2 myself but thats just me)
The biggest problem the non doubtful gamers (can i use that term?) is seperating the true doubtful gamers from the ones just playing doubtful.
The doubtful gamer will see a feature and see it as nothing special or no reason to get excited, while the pretend one will say because of this feature it is either the downfall of the game or a sign of the genre, this isn't anti hype this is trying to tear it down and make others feel bad or dumb for liking the game.
These are the haters (disguised as the doubtful gamer) that the doubtfuls i'm sure will want to seperate themselves from. A doubtful will listen and take things in and willunderstanding that some people just might be interested even if they aren't, while the hater will say your wrong, bring up non issue points and whatever else they can find to make the game look bad.
For instance (as i believe and hope this will make it easier to see my point):
Doubtful gamer.
I don't see anything special about the lightsabers and it kinda looks like the same thing we've seen before. Why should i be interested in this game? I have plenty of other games as well to play.
The hater.
Well they spent millions on this game and you can see the proof it's already failing due to what this guy on a blog had to say about it oh and hes a Mythic employee so what he says has to be true.
As you can see theres two different types. We non doubters do try to bring up points to the doubtful gamer in hopes of sparking a fire and getting them interested. While the hater we just try to disprove at every turn to show they are just nitpicking or making vague connections to make the game look bad. Whatever the reason, anyone who is taken in by the hype isn't going to really listen to the doubtful gamer as they don't want to be taken down a few levels. They like where they are right now and i'm not sure it's the right of the doubtful gamer to burst their balloon
Personally i'm not sure why the doubtful gamer wants to be the anti-hype, this will always place you as the bad guy because your coming into the party and saying this isn't right or this is like every other part i've went to.. If the game fails then you can be there to say "see, thats why i don't get hyped over it." If theres some reason why you think it's bad like pushing the genre down a bad street. Say so. You'd be surprised at how much "non doubtful gamers" might listen. Just reframe from saying things like this game will be bad or it's just another WoW clone. These blind the fans from thinking your doubtful to thinking your a hater instead.
Now there are differences between an excited player and a Fanboy player, when it comes to defending the game and theres some problems i see here as the excited player gets bunched in with the fanboy and thats the same as the doubters being bunch in with the haters.
For example an excited player will say when defending the game.
Well Bioware does make some really great games i enjoy and if your interested in stories, they can make some really good ones. Plus they have tons of content in their games from side quests to the long main quest and lots of differences when you play their games, Thats why i'm interested.
The Fanboy defending the game.
This is Bioware, every game they come out with is awesome so this will be to, plus they got LA with them so they can't fail.
I see myself (at least in regards to TOR as it was mentioned in the article) as an excited player for a number of reason. Story, choices, companions, and the morality choices in those stories.
So I think the biggest problem is, it's hard to see who are the rational people (the doubtful gamer on one end and the excited one on the other) and the ones who have agendas that don't really help the game (the hater and the Fanboy)
Just some interesting information while we are on the topic of defining better the sides of the ever growing war that is the love/hate cycle of games
Least wise thats the way i see it
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
We? There's no "we". You speak as though it were a unified front.
It's not.
Sure, there will be "doubtfuls" that share your enjoyment of a particular game, but there will be others that won't. Contrary to popular belief, not all "doubtful gamers" are looking for exactly the same thing, or have exactly the same complaints.
So, when a game comes out that satisfies one set, but not the others - the venom and angst from the unsatisfied "doubtfuls" will continue. In that scenario, who will be "right"?
Of course, no one will be right, just as no one has really been "right" about games of the last 6 years. Even those who believe their "doubtful" opinion equates to unmitigated fact, and those that deign to speak for the whole MMO community, or at least for the community of "doubtfuls".
The statement made earlier - that many MMO players think all games should be made to please them personally - is quite accurate. The MMO community, like MMOs themselves, needs to mature.
I never intended to imply that there was any manner of consensus among doubtful gamers, well, aside from the belief that most modern MMOs suck.
...<snip>...
That's life, people have different opinions. The notion that doubtful gamers are anymore selfish than any other MMO gamer is nonsense. All gamers want to play games that meet their preferences. The difference is that doubtful gamers have been burned by games that either no longer meet their preferences, or were promised games that would but never delivered.
I agree completely with Ceridith. I think he has a firm handle on what motivates many (granted probably not all) doubtful gamers. On the other hand, the people telling doubtful gamers stuff like "keep quiet and suck it up" perhaps need to re-evaluate their stance. They are actually advocating complacency in life and the denial of freedom of speech while Ceridith and others like him are trying to help people in general by reining back on rampant out-of-control consumerism.
It is my opinion that a lot of the angst towards new games, from the old, are more of a personal experience than that of the actual game.
People will always flock to the new shiny game out on the market, that's proven time and time again. But when they get there, they realize....wow this gameplay is superior, it runs better, and looks awesomesauce. But what they don't have is the same community, the same ideas, the same rule set they are so used to. Then all of a sudden a game sucks, a game is washed up, people start flames, which turn into fires. Then the next thing you know is, everyone is gone that you knew, off playing a console, or waiting for the next best thing.
A perfect example of this was DAOC. Still arguably the best gaming experience available, especially in PVP. The people that played and left know it, those that are playing it know it, critics know it, hell everyone knows it. But yet, what's missing?? The same community, the old names that warmed the soul, game that fit like a glove, is gone.
I understand the need to try new things, especially when some level of frustration pops up, but I have to ask, why? Why is it that we all know this is a great game, yet, we'll sit in WoW, and complain how bad it is, Play Warhammer and qq about getting stuck in rocks, or BS BO flipping, (in the past).
I wish I had those answers, and you can use that same question for other games as well, even WoW, and Warhammer. Maybe you guys have them, and if you do, someday, maybe I'll get them too.
Vack FF XIV - the single worse game to cross my hard drive, ever.
To clarify, no WoW hate, really I think it's one of the best games, ever released. It's smooth, has loads of content, and it's fun. I'm just not a player of it, and was only responding to what I read on internet forums on a regular basis. Same goes for Aion, Warhammer. All of those games. They all are good in some retrospect.
What my point is, when is the player going to take responsibility, for the downfall of games? Yes the latests things out have missed the mark a bit on a few things, but we as the customer, are really quick to pull the plug these days, and then come online and spew venom about the product.
So really who is at fault? Sure the developers need to adapt and be much faster with fixes in this age of MMO. Adversly, however, I think we as players need to give some of these things a chance, longer than 1/2 content, or less.
Vack FF XIV - the single worse game to cross my hard drive, ever.
My personal view --- it's not about the hype. Any rational person understands advertising. What is it about? I have been a PC gamer for a long time. Well, since King's Quest I. Was KQ1 a good game? It was new, different, and very well done for what it was. It was something of a surprize. So over the years I have seen many surprizes. X-COM. Half-Life. Civilization. Baldur's Gate. Red Alert. And so on. Probably the biggest surprize I ever had was EQ1. The idea of being in a 3D game in first person with tons of other toons being played by real human beings. There was no hype I remember. I cruised for a new game and saw a magazine ad from a game supplier with 20 or so games listed. This one talked about something different and that it was getting popular (summer right after launch), and it was RPG. So I tried it. I had no idea.
Have there been any surprizes in several years in the MMO field? WoW was a little surprizing in that it was so polished, so easy to play. A little surprizing. And a long time ago.
A doubtful gamer by my definition doesn't expect to be surprized, but he/she does want it to happen once in a long while. Been a long time. A doubtful gamer isn't a troll, however. A troll is just a bottom-feeder. I am willing to turn over one rock after another looking for the next surprize. My arm is getting tired, that's all.
To clarify, no WoW hate, really I think it's one of the best games, ever released. It's smooth, has loads of content, and it's fun. I'm just not a player of it, and was only responding to what I read on internet forums on a regular basis. Same goes for Aion, Warhammer. All of those games. They all are good in some retrospect.
What my point is, when is the player going to take responsibility, for the downfall of games? Yes the latests things out have missed the mark a bit on a few things, but we as the customer, are really quick to pull the plug these days, and then come online and spew venom about the product.
So really who is at fault? Sure the developers need to adapt and be much faster with fixes in this age of MMO. Adversly, however, I think we as players need to give some of these things a chance, longer than 1/2 content, or less.
[Mod Edit]
You can't blame Blizzard for the business decisions of the rest of the industry. You also can't blame Blizzard because their game is popular. They don't force people at gun point to play their game. They've never used their position in the industry to force another game out of business or to release early. The blame falls squarly on the shoulders of the game developers and publishers. If somebody else came out with an MMO that was accessible, and wasn't a total piece of steaming cr@p, people would play it. People are begging for something else to play, but each MMO released seems to be worse than the one previous to it.
It doesn't matter if WoW was buggy at release...look what it was competing against. The graphics were superior, the game play improved and it offered something people couldn't get in other games. It's not their fault if nobody else has come out with anything different that was actually functional.
Eve isn't the only MMO out there that is different from WoW.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I liked the article. And would like to point out oen thing, the "doubtful gamer" as been then accurate gamer for the last 7 years. So much so that you coudl use the terms synonymously.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
" It's clear you just a Blizztard that never played WoW at launch. WoW was more buggy then AoC at launch, at least AoC didn't have servers down for days at a time at launch."
Excuse me, you obviously did not play Wow at launch. Wow had minor bugs at launch, AoC was missing major parts at launch, how absurd to compare them. Also while wow servers were down for hours at a time they were never down for more than 24 hours ever. I really get tired of posters making a mountain out of a molehill of the Wow launch.
Hmm.... I never understood the crowd actually. There wasn't a game which didn't have at least one feature I didn't enjoy. I play the game till I enjoy that feature and then move on. It can be 1 day, 1 month, it can be 2 months or 5 years.
And yes there are features in the same games which I do not like and do not make gameplay enjoyable. I post about them on forums providing valid feedback... usually my feedback is good enough for me to be able to skype the Community managers, if not the devs, after 1-2 months of giving it continuosly.
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
"Doubtful Gamers", as you put it, aren't born that way. They are made that way . . . by the results fed to them. More true than false I'd guess you'd agree after a bit of thought.
There is a fine line between having some experience and wisdom in this industry, and simply being negative for the sake of being miserably negative. Note we don't really see any criteria that allows us, in this discussion, to differentiate between the two.
I eagerly look at every new game that comes out. With a practiced eye. With an experienced eye. With hope, yes, because I LOVE to game, to compete. But, as another poster put it, "hype" isn't appreciated anymore by the gaming community IMO.
Time to see true progression out of Puberty for the genre, instead of being STUCK in it as each MMO development house continues to toss out magnifiscently gorgeous hype that turns out to be the same old scrambled eggs, making the same mistakes (yet again), foregoing basic tenants of competition and participation for all players (subscribers) in service of imposing The Grind to lock in sense of investment by the player, etc.
In short, I, as a "Doubtful Gamer", go into the gaming world to BRING
The doubtfull gamer like everybody can relate too .
Is sadly you and me and all the gamers around that will or have a period in there life ;
Dedicated there heart and soul to a game , they became jaded not for nothing cause of experience .
It doesn´t take much to turn a fun loving gamer into a doubtfull gamer .
And like tons of others i am guilty of that too , you only have to mention negative all day to a person .
That person becomes negative , you give postive to a person that person becomes positive .
Sadly most of MMORPG has been affected in a serious way by a negative way .
The few that are still postive either went trough that phase , or has yet to experience that phase .
Sadly instead of finding a community that cheered them up a product the replenish there energy .
They instead went to a another communtiy or product that only confirmed there negativity .
Sadly one of the reason wow is so succesfull is that its full of negativity . cause they thrive on it .
The few postive people around suddenly makes what you feel special .
Honestly its time we find a game that recharges our postive attitude , and its time you wonder what has changed what has not changed , and the begining is with yourself , be realistic nobody is going to find that first community .
That habors you supported you and brought you up , sorry you have to be that community , cause those people are gone.
The few that are still around are speical and dont have time and patience anymore for the average sadly
So its time for most to be special even if your views or execution is wrong , it doesn´t matter as long as you tried .
The doubtfull gamer like everybody can relate too .
Is sadly you and me and all the gamers around that will or have a period in there life ;
Dedicated there heart and soul to a game , they became jaded not for nothing cause of experience .
It doesn´t take much to turn a fun loving gamer into a doubtfull gamer .
And like tons of others i am guilty of that too , you only have to mention negative all day to a person .
That person becomes negative , you give postive to a person that person becomes positive .
Sadly most of MMORPG has been affected in a serious way by a negative way .
The few that are still postive either went trough that phase , or has yet to experience that phase .
Sadly instead of finding a community that cheered them up a product the replenish there energy .
They instead went to a another communtiy or product that only confirmed there negativity .
Sadly one of the reason wow is so succesfull is that its full of negativity . cause they thrive on it .
The few postive people around suddenly makes what you feel special .
Honestly its time we find a game that recharges our postive attitude , and its time you wonder what has changed what has not changed , and the begining is with yourself , be realistic nobody is going to find that first community .
That habors you supported you and brought you up , sorry you have to be that community , cause those people are gone.
The few that are still around are speical and dont have time and patience anymore for the average sadly
So its time for most to be special even if your views or execution is wrong , it doesn´t matter as long as you tried .
The funny thing about the "doubtful gamer" is that the games they enjoyed in the past UO, Everquest, FFXI....all had major issues and they looked past them to enjoy the game. Be it the community or it was your first MMO, you had fun. Now that the industry offers you a new toy you are doubtful because you want things to be like your old game? Games have changed and so had the market believe it or not.
Sure there are games that are just not good and there was cause to be "doubtful". But I think the biggest issue with "doubtful gamers" is they inability to adapt and enjoy different aspects of a "new" game. They carried the experience of they first MMO's and want the exact same experience. So there is no pleasing them.
My first MMO was FFXI and I remember the good/bad of the game. I think the community in that game was really great due to forced grouping which in turn was a blessing and a curse. But over all I loved it because I found aspects and people to love. There have been new games I tried and I decided not to play cause they were not for me. Its not because no game can match my experience in FF. I took a chance with a new game and its wasn't for me. Even then I can find something to get me to the level cap to say I gave it a fair shake (Warhammer lol).
Its really not fair to the games today to compare them to the games of old. The times are different, the gamers are different, and the technology is better. Its time for the "doubtful gamer" to realize its time is move on. Don't expect the next game you play to be just like FF, Everquest, UO, etc. Walking into the experience with a fresh taste in your mouth or be the sour grumpy gamer. Its your choice.
All I gotta say is "wow" at the ignorance. Ever read "Smile or Die?" You are an example of the attitude that does more harm than good. A world where anyone harboring any negative thoughts of any kind must be "Criminal" and should be punished and pacified into being "positive" and "docile."
Being happy sends the message "nothing is wrong" and "we are content." It doesn't demand change so its great to promote an illusion of happiness. Think of all the people out there who put on a smile because they are told to, but deep down they want to kill themselves or really want to live in another world....because their thoughts are controlled by a decadent culture where it seems only the Rich have a right to be angry, while the poor should sit down and shut up and at the sign of anger.....show the world "as media-spun" proof that those people are poor so should not count.
It is what it is and they are what they are.
There is no Gaming Surge, and that is a reality. Living an illusion across a blog, with the belief that times are "great" when close to half the games that are sold on console today are PC Ports and Non-Exclusive titles when 10 -15 years ago there were 5 - 10x more titles released each year and the majority were exclusive truly says a lot.
As for the "Circle of Innovation"
What are you smoking? Everytime something goes mainstream it gets more kiddy, commercial and loses definition. This happened with practically every genre out there. We have today a much more controlled mainstreamed environment.
I recently coded two total conversion mods which have gamers happy...and amazingly enough I am programming other things. While...let me get this straight...I have to wait now 2 years or more for a game to come out from a four year development cycle that seven out of ten times the game is going to suck or not reach the expectation of the previous versions..
Don't make me laugh. ^_^
I seem to have more relases as far as coding and modding goes in a one year period than half the game companies that won't release anything for a few years at a time. Sorry, but this is a gaming recession and to cover the lack of talent, ideas and the laws which treat programmers as good as immigrant and miners from the 1920s and continue fueling the industry, almost every new game is released for every platform + PC.
I find that this console generation is an experiment and the next generation will be better while PC games have gone from needing 1 video card to needing 2 - 3 video cards if you want to max out dealing with things that make a game visually larger, but doesnt really add anything else (like SLI/Crossfire over three monitors).
Like I stated before....Adopting the "Smile or Die" trend to the letter takes the idea of social slavery to new heights not even stalin or marx could envision.
I'd be willing to say the reason for my cynicism about video games is that it takes a company that loves gaming to make a decent game, and there are currently two types of game companies making video games of all genres, including MMO's.
1) The game companies which want to really deliver a good product but don't have the resources.
2) The game companies which want to really deliver a good product but have pressure from large publishers (Sony, EA, etc.) to finish on-time with deadlines and expectations based on nonsensical market research.
Find me the company which has an innovative idea and has the resources to deliver it, and you'll find me to be an optimistic video game nerd as opposed to my usual doubtful self.
Lol @ the doubtful gamer and great article by the way Bill. I definitely think these type of people need to be addressed since they are in fact taking joy (from themselves and possibly others) and spreading (this type of thinking) it like some disease amongst various channels *cough* forums *cough*. Not saying they are entirely wrong either, but the extreme examples are really the ones I have issues with. You know who you are and I still think you do it for attention.
Anyway, I also believe life is too short to try and take the pessismistic view of things and I also think this is the path that most cowards do take. I think many take these types of stances such as doubtful gamers to ultimately not be disappointed when disappointment arises because they don't know how to handle it properly. So instead of handling it, they just try to find a way to avoid such situations all together by not being hopeful about anything rather than face it head-on. Sure, they are free to think this way but I think the spreading of these types of ideas hurts (the industry) more than it helps sad to say.
In the end, we still need people excited about games especially in something as new as the MMO industry to keep it going. Who knows, what if all people decide to be doubtful of the industry, then what reason would developers have to pursue developing it any further?
There are two types of so-called doubtful gamers, those who love a game and don't want its competition to do well (this sentimient is stronger in the MMo world than outside of it) and those doubtful-gamers who are old and jaded.
I fall into the latter category. I have been a doubtful gamer for years. But I agree Bill, there is actually potential for a new era of what I would call forward-progressing MMO games. They've been stagnant for too long and it nearly killed them (look at lineage 2 and everquest 2 for examples). Fortunately, with games like GW2 or TOR (and others) there is some real potential for MMO's to thrive again.
As an old and crotchety doubtful gamer, I'm actually pretty excited.
"If you were to look at the evolution of videogames as a whole and represented in timeline form, you will find yourself staring at a circle of innovation."
If it is in timeline form than how does it make a cir..c..nevermind.
Hmm.... I never understood the crowd actually. There wasn't a game which didn't have at least one feature I didn't enjoy. I play the game till I enjoy that feature and then move on. It can be 1 day, 1 month, it can be 2 months or 5 years.
And yes there are features in the same games which I do not like and do not make gameplay enjoyable. I post about them on forums providing valid feedback... usually my feedback is good enough for me to be able to skype the Community managers, if not the devs, after 1-2 months of giving it continuosly.
I dont think I'vemade it past 2-years since UO, pre-trammel, and then 8 months with EQ1, then 6-months with WoW, then a bunch of stumbling along for 4-months here and there, then another 8 months with Darkfall, then stumbling 2-months here and there. It has just gone down-hill from there. Though EVE is most appreciated as well.
I have hope for Rift and SWTOR, giving me a balance of pvevp, and at my age, I've actually aged into a form of jello to the whole mmorpg anticipation thing.
Comments
Another great read . Unfortunatly thereis a growing group of people who prefer to see the glass as half empty. It is very fashonable to bash some game, often for issues thathave long since been addressed.
I'm older than most here and hope I never loose the ability to get exited about some new game coming up. Some will be to my liking, some not. These same games will be loved by some and hated by people who find it just isn't the game for them. No game is right for everyone.
One thing people seem to miss is hat the games they gush about were also their first games. They were more exiting because they were new..some were even good, some not.
Hopeful gamer here.
First off, very good read.
Second, i can understand the views of the "doubtful gamer" as they'd like to be called as least for now. They want a good game and thats fine, heck i'm doubtful of some games at first to. I think doubtful gamer is a mindset towards a certain game(s) more so then a particular group of people.
A person might be doubtful of a genre but like a few games in it that surpass the others (in their mind) but can stille be doubtful of the genre and not take everything as truth (I'm doubtful of the FPS genre but things like ME2 and Fallout stand out because they add features that make it fun for me). While I also think some here are placing themselves in the doubtful gamer when they might more fit discouraged gamer instead. However these are just subsets of the issue. They just aren't seeing whats so great about whats coming up ahead and trying to figure out why everyone else is (i'm doubtful of GW2 myself but thats just me)
The biggest problem the non doubtful gamers (can i use that term?) is seperating the true doubtful gamers from the ones just playing doubtful.
The doubtful gamer will see a feature and see it as nothing special or no reason to get excited, while the pretend one will say because of this feature it is either the downfall of the game or a sign of the genre, this isn't anti hype this is trying to tear it down and make others feel bad or dumb for liking the game.
These are the haters (disguised as the doubtful gamer) that the doubtfuls i'm sure will want to seperate themselves from. A doubtful will listen and take things in and willunderstanding that some people just might be interested even if they aren't, while the hater will say your wrong, bring up non issue points and whatever else they can find to make the game look bad.
For instance (as i believe and hope this will make it easier to see my point):
Doubtful gamer.
I don't see anything special about the lightsabers and it kinda looks like the same thing we've seen before. Why should i be interested in this game? I have plenty of other games as well to play.
The hater.
Well they spent millions on this game and you can see the proof it's already failing due to what this guy on a blog had to say about it oh and hes a Mythic employee so what he says has to be true.
As you can see theres two different types. We non doubters do try to bring up points to the doubtful gamer in hopes of sparking a fire and getting them interested. While the hater we just try to disprove at every turn to show they are just nitpicking or making vague connections to make the game look bad. Whatever the reason, anyone who is taken in by the hype isn't going to really listen to the doubtful gamer as they don't want to be taken down a few levels. They like where they are right now and i'm not sure it's the right of the doubtful gamer to burst their balloon
Personally i'm not sure why the doubtful gamer wants to be the anti-hype, this will always place you as the bad guy because your coming into the party and saying this isn't right or this is like every other part i've went to.. If the game fails then you can be there to say "see, thats why i don't get hyped over it." If theres some reason why you think it's bad like pushing the genre down a bad street. Say so. You'd be surprised at how much "non doubtful gamers" might listen. Just reframe from saying things like this game will be bad or it's just another WoW clone. These blind the fans from thinking your doubtful to thinking your a hater instead.
Now there are differences between an excited player and a Fanboy player, when it comes to defending the game and theres some problems i see here as the excited player gets bunched in with the fanboy and thats the same as the doubters being bunch in with the haters.
For example an excited player will say when defending the game.
Well Bioware does make some really great games i enjoy and if your interested in stories, they can make some really good ones. Plus they have tons of content in their games from side quests to the long main quest and lots of differences when you play their games, Thats why i'm interested.
The Fanboy defending the game.
This is Bioware, every game they come out with is awesome so this will be to, plus they got LA with them so they can't fail.
I see myself (at least in regards to TOR as it was mentioned in the article) as an excited player for a number of reason. Story, choices, companions, and the morality choices in those stories.
So I think the biggest problem is, it's hard to see who are the rational people (the doubtful gamer on one end and the excited one on the other) and the ones who have agendas that don't really help the game (the hater and the Fanboy)
Just some interesting information while we are on the topic of defining better the sides of the ever growing war that is the love/hate cycle of games
Least wise thats the way i see it
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
doubtful gamers are former enthusiasts that got burned one too many times.
http://hardballgaming.blogspot.com/
I agree completely with Ceridith. I think he has a firm handle on what motivates many (granted probably not all) doubtful gamers. On the other hand, the people telling doubtful gamers stuff like "keep quiet and suck it up" perhaps need to re-evaluate their stance. They are actually advocating complacency in life and the denial of freedom of speech while Ceridith and others like him are trying to help people in general by reining back on rampant out-of-control consumerism.
It is my opinion that a lot of the angst towards new games, from the old, are more of a personal experience than that of the actual game.
People will always flock to the new shiny game out on the market, that's proven time and time again. But when they get there, they realize....wow this gameplay is superior, it runs better, and looks awesomesauce. But what they don't have is the same community, the same ideas, the same rule set they are so used to. Then all of a sudden a game sucks, a game is washed up, people start flames, which turn into fires. Then the next thing you know is, everyone is gone that you knew, off playing a console, or waiting for the next best thing.
A perfect example of this was DAOC. Still arguably the best gaming experience available, especially in PVP. The people that played and left know it, those that are playing it know it, critics know it, hell everyone knows it. But yet, what's missing?? The same community, the old names that warmed the soul, game that fit like a glove, is gone.
I understand the need to try new things, especially when some level of frustration pops up, but I have to ask, why? Why is it that we all know this is a great game, yet, we'll sit in WoW, and complain how bad it is, Play Warhammer and qq about getting stuck in rocks, or BS BO flipping, (in the past).
I wish I had those answers, and you can use that same question for other games as well, even WoW, and Warhammer. Maybe you guys have them, and if you do, someday, maybe I'll get them too.
Vack
FF XIV - the single worse game to cross my hard drive, ever.
To clarify, no WoW hate, really I think it's one of the best games, ever released. It's smooth, has loads of content, and it's fun. I'm just not a player of it, and was only responding to what I read on internet forums on a regular basis. Same goes for Aion, Warhammer. All of those games. They all are good in some retrospect.
What my point is, when is the player going to take responsibility, for the downfall of games? Yes the latests things out have missed the mark a bit on a few things, but we as the customer, are really quick to pull the plug these days, and then come online and spew venom about the product.
So really who is at fault? Sure the developers need to adapt and be much faster with fixes in this age of MMO. Adversly, however, I think we as players need to give some of these things a chance, longer than 1/2 content, or less.
Vack
FF XIV - the single worse game to cross my hard drive, ever.
My personal view --- it's not about the hype. Any rational person understands advertising. What is it about? I have been a PC gamer for a long time. Well, since King's Quest I. Was KQ1 a good game? It was new, different, and very well done for what it was. It was something of a surprize. So over the years I have seen many surprizes. X-COM. Half-Life. Civilization. Baldur's Gate. Red Alert. And so on. Probably the biggest surprize I ever had was EQ1. The idea of being in a 3D game in first person with tons of other toons being played by real human beings. There was no hype I remember. I cruised for a new game and saw a magazine ad from a game supplier with 20 or so games listed. This one talked about something different and that it was getting popular (summer right after launch), and it was RPG. So I tried it. I had no idea.
Have there been any surprizes in several years in the MMO field? WoW was a little surprizing in that it was so polished, so easy to play. A little surprizing. And a long time ago.
A doubtful gamer by my definition doesn't expect to be surprized, but he/she does want it to happen once in a long while. Been a long time. A doubtful gamer isn't a troll, however. A troll is just a bottom-feeder. I am willing to turn over one rock after another looking for the next surprize. My arm is getting tired, that's all.
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Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
Best post in this thread. Shame the industry has disappointed us so many times lately.
You can't blame Blizzard for the business decisions of the rest of the industry. You also can't blame Blizzard because their game is popular. They don't force people at gun point to play their game. They've never used their position in the industry to force another game out of business or to release early. The blame falls squarly on the shoulders of the game developers and publishers. If somebody else came out with an MMO that was accessible, and wasn't a total piece of steaming cr@p, people would play it. People are begging for something else to play, but each MMO released seems to be worse than the one previous to it.
It doesn't matter if WoW was buggy at release...look what it was competing against. The graphics were superior, the game play improved and it offered something people couldn't get in other games. It's not their fault if nobody else has come out with anything different that was actually functional.
Eve isn't the only MMO out there that is different from WoW.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I liked the article. And would like to point out oen thing, the "doubtful gamer" as been then accurate gamer for the last 7 years. So much so that you coudl use the terms synonymously.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
" It's clear you just a Blizztard that never played WoW at launch. WoW was more buggy then AoC at launch, at least AoC didn't have servers down for days at a time at launch."
Excuse me, you obviously did not play Wow at launch. Wow had minor bugs at launch, AoC was missing major parts at launch, how absurd to compare them. Also while wow servers were down for hours at a time they were never down for more than 24 hours ever. I really get tired of posters making a mountain out of a molehill of the Wow launch.
Hmm.... I never understood the crowd actually. There wasn't a game which didn't have at least one feature I didn't enjoy. I play the game till I enjoy that feature and then move on. It can be 1 day, 1 month, it can be 2 months or 5 years.
And yes there are features in the same games which I do not like and do not make gameplay enjoyable. I post about them on forums providing valid feedback... usually my feedback is good enough for me to be able to skype the Community managers, if not the devs, after 1-2 months of giving it continuosly.
"Doubtful Gamers", as you put it, aren't born that way. They are made that way . . . by the results fed to them. More true than false I'd guess you'd agree after a bit of thought.
There is a fine line between having some experience and wisdom in this industry, and simply being negative for the sake of being miserably negative. Note we don't really see any criteria that allows us, in this discussion, to differentiate between the two.
I eagerly look at every new game that comes out. With a practiced eye. With an experienced eye. With hope, yes, because I LOVE to game, to compete. But, as another poster put it, "hype" isn't appreciated anymore by the gaming community IMO.
Time to see true progression out of Puberty for the genre, instead of being STUCK in it as each MMO development house continues to toss out magnifiscently gorgeous hype that turns out to be the same old scrambled eggs, making the same mistakes (yet again), foregoing basic tenants of competition and participation for all players (subscribers) in service of imposing The Grind to lock in sense of investment by the player, etc.
In short, I, as a "Doubtful Gamer", go into the gaming world to BRING
Wherever you go, there you are.
The doubtfull gamer like everybody can relate too .
Is sadly you and me and all the gamers around that will or have a period in there life ;
Dedicated there heart and soul to a game , they became jaded not for nothing cause of experience .
It doesn´t take much to turn a fun loving gamer into a doubtfull gamer .
And like tons of others i am guilty of that too , you only have to mention negative all day to a person .
That person becomes negative , you give postive to a person that person becomes positive .
Sadly most of MMORPG has been affected in a serious way by a negative way .
The few that are still postive either went trough that phase , or has yet to experience that phase .
Sadly instead of finding a community that cheered them up a product the replenish there energy .
They instead went to a another communtiy or product that only confirmed there negativity .
Sadly one of the reason wow is so succesfull is that its full of negativity . cause they thrive on it .
The few postive people around suddenly makes what you feel special .
Honestly its time we find a game that recharges our postive attitude , and its time you wonder what has changed what has not changed , and the begining is with yourself , be realistic nobody is going to find that first community .
That habors you supported you and brought you up , sorry you have to be that community , cause those people are gone.
The few that are still around are speical and dont have time and patience anymore for the average sadly
So its time for most to be special even if your views or execution is wrong , it doesn´t matter as long as you tried .
The funny thing about the "doubtful gamer" is that the games they enjoyed in the past UO, Everquest, FFXI....all had major issues and they looked past them to enjoy the game. Be it the community or it was your first MMO, you had fun. Now that the industry offers you a new toy you are doubtful because you want things to be like your old game? Games have changed and so had the market believe it or not.
Sure there are games that are just not good and there was cause to be "doubtful". But I think the biggest issue with "doubtful gamers" is they inability to adapt and enjoy different aspects of a "new" game. They carried the experience of they first MMO's and want the exact same experience. So there is no pleasing them.
My first MMO was FFXI and I remember the good/bad of the game. I think the community in that game was really great due to forced grouping which in turn was a blessing and a curse. But over all I loved it because I found aspects and people to love. There have been new games I tried and I decided not to play cause they were not for me. Its not because no game can match my experience in FF. I took a chance with a new game and its wasn't for me. Even then I can find something to get me to the level cap to say I gave it a fair shake (Warhammer lol).
Its really not fair to the games today to compare them to the games of old. The times are different, the gamers are different, and the technology is better. Its time for the "doubtful gamer" to realize its time is move on. Don't expect the next game you play to be just like FF, Everquest, UO, etc. Walking into the experience with a fresh taste in your mouth or be the sour grumpy gamer. Its your choice.
"The Doubtful Gamer steal Joy"
All I gotta say is "wow" at the ignorance. Ever read "Smile or Die?" You are an example of the attitude that does more harm than good. A world where anyone harboring any negative thoughts of any kind must be "Criminal" and should be punished and pacified into being "positive" and "docile."
Being happy sends the message "nothing is wrong" and "we are content." It doesn't demand change so its great to promote an illusion of happiness. Think of all the people out there who put on a smile because they are told to, but deep down they want to kill themselves or really want to live in another world....because their thoughts are controlled by a decadent culture where it seems only the Rich have a right to be angry, while the poor should sit down and shut up and at the sign of anger.....show the world "as media-spun" proof that those people are poor so should not count.
It is what it is and they are what they are.
There is no Gaming Surge, and that is a reality. Living an illusion across a blog, with the belief that times are "great" when close to half the games that are sold on console today are PC Ports and Non-Exclusive titles when 10 -15 years ago there were 5 - 10x more titles released each year and the majority were exclusive truly says a lot.
As for the "Circle of Innovation"
What are you smoking? Everytime something goes mainstream it gets more kiddy, commercial and loses definition. This happened with practically every genre out there. We have today a much more controlled mainstreamed environment.
I recently coded two total conversion mods which have gamers happy...and amazingly enough I am programming other things. While...let me get this straight...I have to wait now 2 years or more for a game to come out from a four year development cycle that seven out of ten times the game is going to suck or not reach the expectation of the previous versions..
Don't make me laugh. ^_^
I seem to have more relases as far as coding and modding goes in a one year period than half the game companies that won't release anything for a few years at a time. Sorry, but this is a gaming recession and to cover the lack of talent, ideas and the laws which treat programmers as good as immigrant and miners from the 1920s and continue fueling the industry, almost every new game is released for every platform + PC.
I find that this console generation is an experiment and the next generation will be better while PC games have gone from needing 1 video card to needing 2 - 3 video cards if you want to max out dealing with things that make a game visually larger, but doesnt really add anything else (like SLI/Crossfire over three monitors).
Like I stated before....Adopting the "Smile or Die" trend to the letter takes the idea of social slavery to new heights not even stalin or marx could envision.
I'd be willing to say the reason for my cynicism about video games is that it takes a company that loves gaming to make a decent game, and there are currently two types of game companies making video games of all genres, including MMO's.
1) The game companies which want to really deliver a good product but don't have the resources.
2) The game companies which want to really deliver a good product but have pressure from large publishers (Sony, EA, etc.) to finish on-time with deadlines and expectations based on nonsensical market research.
Find me the company which has an innovative idea and has the resources to deliver it, and you'll find me to be an optimistic video game nerd as opposed to my usual doubtful self.
Lol @ the doubtful gamer and great article by the way Bill. I definitely think these type of people need to be addressed since they are in fact taking joy (from themselves and possibly others) and spreading (this type of thinking) it like some disease amongst various channels *cough* forums *cough*. Not saying they are entirely wrong either, but the extreme examples are really the ones I have issues with. You know who you are and I still think you do it for attention.
Anyway, I also believe life is too short to try and take the pessismistic view of things and I also think this is the path that most cowards do take. I think many take these types of stances such as doubtful gamers to ultimately not be disappointed when disappointment arises because they don't know how to handle it properly. So instead of handling it, they just try to find a way to avoid such situations all together by not being hopeful about anything rather than face it head-on. Sure, they are free to think this way but I think the spreading of these types of ideas hurts (the industry) more than it helps sad to say.
In the end, we still need people excited about games especially in something as new as the MMO industry to keep it going. Who knows, what if all people decide to be doubtful of the industry, then what reason would developers have to pursue developing it any further?
Well put. Caution is good but in time like you said something good comes out of it all and then it starts again.
Gikku
There are two types of so-called doubtful gamers, those who love a game and don't want its competition to do well (this sentimient is stronger in the MMo world than outside of it) and those doubtful-gamers who are old and jaded.
I fall into the latter category. I have been a doubtful gamer for years. But I agree Bill, there is actually potential for a new era of what I would call forward-progressing MMO games. They've been stagnant for too long and it nearly killed them (look at lineage 2 and everquest 2 for examples). Fortunately, with games like GW2 or TOR (and others) there is some real potential for MMO's to thrive again.
As an old and crotchety doubtful gamer, I'm actually pretty excited.
"If you were to look at the evolution of videogames as a whole and represented in timeline form, you will find yourself staring at a circle of innovation."
If it is in timeline form than how does it make a cir..c..nevermind.
I dont think I'vemade it past 2-years since UO, pre-trammel, and then 8 months with EQ1, then 6-months with WoW, then a bunch of stumbling along for 4-months here and there, then another 8 months with Darkfall, then stumbling 2-months here and there. It has just gone down-hill from there. Though EVE is most appreciated as well.
I have hope for Rift and SWTOR, giving me a balance of pvevp, and at my age, I've actually aged into a form of jello to the whole mmorpg anticipation thing.