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This is why we whine
Goronian
Member Posts: 724
Before we even begin. People, please... Let's be rational and and at least attempt to discuss this in a mature way. This is important for gamers on both sides of the fence.
You know why all those threads pop up? The grouping ones, the f2p ones, the nostalgia and wowclone ones? Because we don't have one simple thing, any gamer has the right to.
Choice.
Let's face it. We can't go back to those games of old, even if we wanted to. You know why? They're either dead, knocking on the ol' reaper's door or are mind-bogglingly top-heavy. No new blood is joining them, finding groups is impossible, and solo? You can't solo in them. We don't have, what we want. We can't have, what we want. No matter how hard we moan, whine or rage, we have no choice, but to force ourselves onto new games, latching on anyone, who seems to enjoy what we used to - from grouping, to roleplaying, to basic socialising and exploration. To put it in simple words.
We've lost hope. And we're too proud to admit it.
I'm sorry guys, but this is how it is. While the genre is far from dead, our view of it drinks scotch with dodo. We lost what we had, we lost, what we held so dear. And unless we unite, we can't have it back. But you probably remember, how well that went.
That was... Kinda depressing, wasn't it?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Comments
I think MMORPGs were a good idea to developers until they found out how much they take to maintain. Blizzard is gradually trimming WoW until eventually it will be little more than a chat lobby for random dungeons and PvP. Creating worlds takes time and talent and both seem to be in short supply anymore.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
At least you tried. What more can any of us ask of one another? You can solo in those older games now. That's part of the problem in my opinion. There really are no forced grouping games or games with mandatory downtime to socialize. And that's mostly because the majority of players don't like it.
I've come to the realization that for me, having less time to play is a huge factor as to why the communities seem dead. It's hard to be part of a community when you don't actually spend that much time in it. I think part of the reason I had so many friends in the older games was because I played them 8 hours a day, every day. I could log in and expect to see at least 4 or 5 of the same people on at any given time. And they could expect that of me. That just doesn't happen as much anymore I don't think. It's hard to get to know people when you or they only spend 5-10 hours a week as an active part of a community. So, maybe it's not that players don't want to get to know the community, maybe they just are no longer able to due to time constraints.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Spot on OP, I have found a home of sort on Laurelin, the EU Lotro server but its nothing like the glories of old. And the encroachment of the new gameplay never stops. Recently they introduced a teleport system in Lotro which take you to any dungeon instance and you exit where you teleported from. Players do not have to have even physically visited the location of the dungeon, it could be in the Shire or Moria for all they know. For the sake of convenience players knowledge of the game world has been lessened.
That’s were we are now, fill up that glass of scotch and knock it back, the Dodo’s are quite good company.
I'd have to disagree some, I didn't start MMO's until I was knee deep in work and family so I've never had a lot of free time to play MMORPG's, I always kept it to 20 hours a week or less.
In fact, I play less now even though I probably have more free time because the games just aren't that fun anymore. Gone are the virtual worlds that I used to enjoy, replaced by games that are designed to cater to the more casual player who wants to get in and get out quickly, with minimal downtime.
I will agree with the OP, what we had is pretty much lost, outside of EVE I can't think of a thriving virtual world and I'll always keep hoping for some form of DAOC 2 however unlikely that is to ever happen.
Regarding the old games, they changed them, trying to make them more casual, more WOW like in many cases, ruining what made them great for those of us who enjoyed their original incarnation.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
this says it all for me, my first MMO was SWG early to mid 2005, i had a good 4 - 6 months of absolute love for the game before the NGE hit which changed the game, not as much as what people initially think but it was the first step towards the junk it is today, a repeat of all the other MMOs out there. very similar with Lotro, i played it for a year and then they decided to go FTP and made a load of changes as well. For me it's change that has killed my love for mmo's...
The problem is, you do have a choice, you just refuse to make it. You want something that doesn't exist, will not exist and you cannot accept that and move on. Your choice is, find a game that you like or go find something else to do with your time. Just because they don't make a game you like doesn't mean you have a right to a game that you want. Deal with the reality that exists, stop pretending that you're somehow entitled to get what you want, just because you want it.
There aren't any games out there I want to play either. I wish there were but I understand why they are not. Therefore, I'm not playing any, but I don't spend my time whining about how awful it is that I'm not getting catered to. I don't have an entitlement-fantasy.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Those first games were not that great anyway.
There was a reason why they lost players. Rest is nostalgia.
I can look back at games like the Ultima's of the 80's and other Zorks and understand why such games are no longer in the market.
But I guess I can place everything in its proper perspective.
UO is hailed as the God of all fantastic MMO's. It was "sandbox" because the designers simply had little experience and UO was actually underdevelopped.
UO had invisible walls everywhere. People were just pleased they could come on line and chat with a friend miles away.
Wow. Awesome: problem is : everything gets streamlined, faster, more flashy and less time consuming.
That goes for sports, entertainment etc...and yes also for on line play.
In 1978 the board wargames market was so huge, the most popular wargames sold 500K to 1 million copies.
These days a print run of a board wargame is 500 copies ... worldwide.
No market: no production. And I have to say: when I compare the game mechanics, these games were not that great either. When I compare the first board game of Lord of the Rings from SPI in 1978 and look at War of the Rings 2007 ... one can see the shortcomings of the first one.
btw: for those seeking a very fun board game : play Castle of Ravenloft: I think playing other things than MMO's are a very nice way to counter your feelings.
Another method is playing your mmo in new and original ways, but most people have no clue: they follow the masses. Kind of odd: most players whine for sandbox and they can't even find the sandbox in current MMo's (and believ me you have a zillion different play mechanics in mmo's these days).
Obviously not much beyond a box sale, and expansion sale. Prove ArenaNet wrong....well, we can't, because they proved the latter wrong.
And where do they stand now ?
The moment the game doesn't add a yearly expansion it is as good as dead.
I bet GW2 will use other means of getting money.
Ok, so now it's not about maintenance, which was the origonal point, but long-term life-time perpetuality. For me it doesnt exist.
IMO the mmorpg genre NEVER had it ,there was only one mind brave enough and smart enough to try to be a little different ,creative,realistic and true to the MMO word,and that was Tanaka.
Everyone keeps using or i should say misusing the word FUN,i have yet to see anyone play for fun,most are in a hurry to rush through a game.Last time i checked if something was fun,you want it to last not rush through it.
There is a few very easy steps to making a better MMORPG and it seems MOST devs are not willing to change their ways as long as thye can make a profit from selling us junk.
The few things to change are....... LEVELS.Levels should be treated as an age thing,and no one level should be faster to get through than the other.
Quests...I remember playing rpg's and the quests were to attain a crest or a key or something to allow access,they wern't a cheap mechanic to attain levels via free handouts of XP.Quests need to be done right and stepped up several notches,lose the xp attached to them.
Permadeath...No i don't mean PVP death i mean permadeath from aging,it is a realistic factor in life and since we are role playing ,it should be in the game.Tons of ways to make it work,i can think of many.
END -GAME...There should be no such thing,a living world that one is role playing in should never end.people have come to the conclusion that end game is some UBER elite term that means i have joined the elite forces in conquering the elite content....umm it is just a stigma and really a pathetic reason for gaming.If a developer needs to justify their game by telling people there is a good game at the end of all the crap,it shouldn't be purchased by anyone to begin with.
So devs need to keep it simple yet realistic,this way it would truly be a role playing game.Instead of creating new mpas and zones that virtually eliminate the old ones,keep the game world alive,allow players to change the world ever so slightly.NPC's should not be stagnant pawns waiting to be clicked,they should be meaningful parts of the game world.
I touched on only a few of the mistakes devs are doing in their design,there are others,i didn't even mention crafting.Crafting has become something people dread and devs are now making it auto done or offline,really again pathetic game design.If these devs can't produce a MMORPG,they have no business selling one,what makes it worse is people will pay to play anything that keeps them occupied for a hour or two.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Um, lets not forget guild wars does have a cash shop, I'm sure they do make money from it. They sell their guild wars extras:
Costumes
Storage Panes
Makeover Pack
Extreme Makeover
Pet Unlock Pack
Bonus Mission Pack
Skill and Item Unlock packs
So guild wars did not prove all you need is a box sale. Maybe that is all you need, but we cannot infer that from GW sales model. All we can infer is that they have box sale AND cash shop. They are far from just box sales.
Venge Sunsoar
Yes it does prove all you need is box sales, which in their case was. . .hmmmm....about 5million +. The other stuff you referred to was optional.
Edit: I forgot to sign my name...seems more legit and credible that way.
Cik Asalin
No it doesn't prove it. In order to prove it you would have to know what all their expenses were, and how much they made from all their box sales. We don't have either.
The only information we do have is:
1. They sold alot of boxes.
2. They are still in business so it is a safe assumption to say they are profitable (a safe but not definite assumption)
3. Their sales model has box sales and cash shop. Optional or not, it is their and it would be naive to think they are not making money from it.
Therefore we can only conclude their their model relies on both box sales and cash shop. We don't have any numbers to prove any point beyond that, zip, zilch, nothing.
Venge Sunsoar
How is it a sense of entitlement to want something that isn't currently available? If all players just accepted games as they are and never voiced complaints or wishes concerning games we'd all still be playing pong.
The sense of entitlement comes when people feel they have a right to a particular game simply because they want it. We don't have a right to that game. Our right is simply to choose to play or not to play the games that are offered. Our right is to complain about whatever games. We don't have the rights to demand a game be made.
Venge Sunsoar
Optional for you but solid revenue for them, which proves the point is wrong, it wasn't just box sales.
Otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to charge real money for them and instead reward them in-game, either because their box sale revenue was solid enough or because the demand for these would be too small to justify being exclusive to a cash shop.
It's kind of odd to be honest because even though we realize what kind of gems we had in the past, gaming is general has become a multi-billion dollar industry.. World of Warcraft caught the attention of the target group of todays gaming scene, adolescents. No longer are MMO's as complicated as they were before, where it seemed like the average age group would be 30+.. They are making games for your kids to enjoy, we (as adults) have no choice in the matter..
Games like Age of Conan promised to be more for the older gamer, but what did we get? Game mechanics similar to WoW all wrapped up in a semi-nude and bumpy world that was basically all instanced from the start (something us older gamers are not accustomed to)..
Most of us do not like the direction of todays games, but we have not realized that we are not the target audience anymore.. Chances are, if you have kids and they found out and started playing WoW as their first MMO, they will carry that experience on to every and any other MMO they play. And while we frown on it because we grew up on other styles, they will accept and cherish games that feel like what they are used to..
WE either adapt or find another source, I think that is the only solution.. As long as the earth is spinning things will evolve and when life takes another step up the ladder people are going to be left behind.. Even in MMO's, we are simply being left behind.
Aye. Welcome to the mainstream.
This is so far from the truth it hurts even looking at this response. You'd be surprised to know that more than 75% of the people here on this very site played their first mmorpg while they were under the age of 18. Trying to blame this on age is as silly as trying to blame the increase use of PCs on kids. Demand dictated that computers needed to be offered at lower prices to penetrate more households. But just because most store bought PCs are terrible for anything other that light gaming, does not mean that someone with more serious demands cannot find a PC that fits their criteria.
Just as we are now at the stage where mmorpgs are being streamlined to penetrate the gaming market more. It doesn't mean that there are no games for players that want a little more meat on the bone. Take the time to look for them. Then be ready to sacrifice a little of those bells and whistles you find in bigger budgeted mmos. The kids that played WoW 6 years ago are the potential developers thinking up ways to make their mark in the gaming arena today. But if you keep belittling them and thnking most of them are too dumb, shallow or lazy to get what we got back then with all the underdeveloped resources most companies had to work with back then. Well...it will only continue slipping your grasp as to why you cannot find that magic you thought you once had
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
While your intellegent response is appreciated, you misunderstand my point.. I was not blaming the abscence of "quality" on age, nor was I "belittling" any of the youth that played, plays or will play games like WoW.. I was simply mentioning evolution as to why some of us feel left out in the MMO scene (the "nostalgia" of mmo's present in the 90's when many of us including myself were once kids)..
Its simply the evolution of the mmo.. And I highly doubt the kids who grow up to create games in the "mmo arena" will look back to originals like everquest and Ultima for inspiration when developing for the next gen. They are going to more than likely see what is working in that generation and improve upon it causing yet more evolution in the process..
So as intellegent of a being I believe you are, you have not given much consideration to the fact that "things change".. It is as permenant as the seasons that come and go 4 times a year.. Streamlined or not, there is a reason why things like VHS, Tape cassettes and CRT monitors have faded away. Improvement. Even if you "prefer" these types of technology and "take the time to look for them", what reasons would any company have to make more of these older generation models to sale to you? In many cases World Of Warcraft improved aspects of the MMO and thus the industry has molded itself to fit the "current" generation
I think you are wrong, OP. The reason we whine is not so much that we can't go back to older game as it is the fact that the genre have moved very slowly forward in the last few years.
Same combat as Meridian 59 had, raiding is the same as in EQ and almost nothing have changed since Wow released besides somewhat better graphics and that the difficulty has been lowered. Crafting is still pointless and grindy, PvP has not evolved a bit since DaoC, in some cases it have devolved instead.
I think people are just tired of the same old but simpler, which is what we get all the time. We can't turn the clock back but we are also sitting still in the same spot for at least the last 6 years and in some aspects for 15 years. Sure, the games tell you how to do things today but that really doesn't improve gameplay that much.
Hopefully will 2011 change that.
Honestly, the only reason I addressed your stance that mmo developers are actively targeting "adolescents" is two part. One, you're assuming that these adolescents are not mature enough to handle anything "complicated" that was available back then when it came to mmos. And two, Saying on one hand that past mmos were complicated is assuming that the ones we are playing now are not.
This is where I differ on your stance of age. It is also the main reason I brought up that most mmo players here, have played these complicated mmos and did just fine. This is why it leads me to believe that it's not as much as difficulty found in past mmos as it is demand. Demand in the sense of time.
So is it really a stretch to believe that just maybe younger gamers in the past understood the demand of time required to play these games moreso than older players that may have been more prone to moderating their playing habits to more casual levels back then? And maybe these older gamers were happy with the advancement they achieved even at their limited playing schedule. While the younger players were a little more vocal with their disatisfaction (and wallets) with how these old school games were offering the same level of demand on time to a now more older and vocal player base who now found themselves with less time to play as they did in their youth?
And now you have older gamers from back then blaming young kids today for a situation that may have been actually caused by the younger kids that played back then. I just think that players are too quick to blame the growing population for things that the younger populations of yesterday set in motion. Because we all know that you don't get more players from some magical older player farm. You get them from new younger players growing up to be older players. And this group of players deserve the same level of assumption that you think older players gave you back then...
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I think there is something coming. It's not here yet, but it's on the way.
You don't need 10 million players in your game, right? Of course not, you can't play with them all.
A full server, something like 3-5k on the server (not sure how many logged on at the same time), is all you really need to have fun, right?
I think the 3d version of the Mud is coming. Just in the last year some remarkeable things have happenedin the engine department.
Hero Engine is available for 5,000 dollars. The same engine used to make TOR. BWT, used to makes lots of asian F2P games, is available for 300 bucks.
These engines are NOT easy to use. you have to program and script to make them work, because they are bare bones, and they JUST became available at these prices.
But what happens when the kits for these engines begin to show up, so that any modder can throw up a world, and tweak it however they want to?
3-5k players, and donations will easily pay for the server, plus put money in the developers pocket.
And you can do wahtever you want. Long grinds, PvP, perma death worlds, tough PvE that requires grouping, adult themed scrips for quests, however you want to do it.
I don't think the key is waiting for a big AAA blockbuster MMO that caters to what the old school gamers want. I think it will be something like when the Muds first became popular, only with a cool MMO kit, using one of the new low priced engines.
Damn straight! I've been trying to get across the same thing. Stop waiting for pencil pushers and paper chasers to bring the games you want and wait (or make) the one that's close to your ideal mmo. Waiting for the former is like thinking Donald Trump is gonna knock on your door and say: "Hey! I know you from mmorpg.com! I read you have a great idea for a new mmo, I'll give you my full backing and a small fortune to get you started! Let's do this!"
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."