The gaming kit idea and player designed modding are the only two ideas I have seen that could give us a broader range of MMO games. Even the two MMO's I am keeping an eye on, GW2 and Rifts can hardly said to be breaking the mould theme wise.
I do partialy blame the increasing lower age of players for what has happened. We moved from PC's to include consoles, do you think that consoles had a higher age demographic? There are many factors to all this, but catering for teenagers is one of them.
I think there is something coming. It's not here yet, but it's on the way.
You don't need 10 million players in your game, right? Of course not, you can't play with them all.
A full server, something like 3-5k on the server (not sure how many logged on at the same time), is all you really need to have fun, right?
I think the 3d version of the Mud is coming. Just in the last year some remarkeable things have happenedin the engine department.
Hero Engine is available for 5,000 dollars. The same engine used to make TOR. BWT, used to makes lots of asian F2P games, is available for 300 bucks.
These engines are NOT easy to use. you have to program and script to make them work, because they are bare bones, and they JUST became available at these prices.
But what happens when the kits for these engines begin to show up, so that any modder can throw up a world, and tweak it however they want to?
3-5k players, and donations will easily pay for the server, plus put money in the developers pocket.
And you can do wahtever you want. Long grinds, PvP, perma death worlds, tough PvE that requires grouping, adult themed scrips for quests, however you want to do it.
I don't think the key is waiting for a big AAA blockbuster MMO that caters to what the old school gamers want. I think it will be something like when the Muds first became popular, only with a cool MMO kit, using one of the new low priced engines.
I think the above is a very strong post covering many core problems the players face (not so much the industry).
The problem with all single server based games has always been that the game is launched, grows and then dies with 3K players.
Even the old time MUD's had very much the same problem. the average MUD server had a "healthy" life expectancy of 4 to 6 months. I said AVERAGE. After that it was over. If one or two key persons stopped, the game was really over and out
I have seen it a few months ago. In our club some enthousiasts decided to revive the thing. After 2 months it's over and out.
Causes? Too many things interfere and come out and disperse the recruiting field, old mechanics. Recruiting past the initial period is zero.
I think if you would mold the MUD into the latest 3D, you would get the exact same thing happening. Even in commercial AAA launched MMO's you see the same thing: there are too few people interested to guarantee "living" server populations.
If you really would call it niche, you'd have 5K players: but this means zero in MMO land after X months of play.
The future only lays with huge AAA launches and hope that they will include "some" elements you really like or else: simply adapt.
The present day on line player wants to play NOW with the least downtime possible. That can only be achieved in 2 ways:
- Leave the single server concept, cluster all your players worldwide with all consequences.
- Very short playing sessions to have the attention span of the average ADHD 14 year old and grandma Simpson (30 minutes).
If you want other kinds of experiences, you'll have to grab to non video games. Like I said very nice board wargames and fantasy games and pens and paper experiences out there.
But ... really ... we have to be honest too : a VIDEO game is not very suited to play 8 hour sessions on single servers these days.
This kind of play is a thing of the past and it will never come back.
I think there is something coming. It's not here yet, but it's on the way.
You don't need 10 million players in your game, right? Of course not, you can't play with them all.
A full server, something like 3-5k on the server (not sure how many logged on at the same time), is all you really need to have fun, right?
I think the 3d version of the Mud is coming. Just in the last year some remarkeable things have happenedin the engine department.
Hero Engine is available for 5,000 dollars. The same engine used to make TOR. BWT, used to makes lots of asian F2P games, is available for 300 bucks.
These engines are NOT easy to use. you have to program and script to make them work, because they are bare bones, and they JUST became available at these prices.
But what happens when the kits for these engines begin to show up, so that any modder can throw up a world, and tweak it however they want to?
3-5k players, and donations will easily pay for the server, plus put money in the developers pocket.
And you can do wahtever you want. Long grinds, PvP, perma death worlds, tough PvE that requires grouping, adult themed scrips for quests, however you want to do it.
I don't think the key is waiting for a big AAA blockbuster MMO that caters to what the old school gamers want. I think it will be something like when the Muds first became popular, only with a cool MMO kit, using one of the new low priced engines.
This is something I have long thought about myself. I think this is something we'll see in the next decade or so. The main issue is development time. The kits would have to be in place where a complete noob could quickly toss something together, while a patient person could build a real world.
A company that created a good engine, with easy to use tools, and sold it at a fair enough price could change the industry.
I think there is something coming. It's not here yet, but it's on the way.
You don't need 10 million players in your game, right? Of course not, you can't play with them all.
A full server, something like 3-5k on the server (not sure how many logged on at the same time), is all you really need to have fun, right?
I think the 3d version of the Mud is coming. Just in the last year some remarkeable things have happenedin the engine department.
Hero Engine is available for 5,000 dollars. The same engine used to make TOR. BWT, used to makes lots of asian F2P games, is available for 300 bucks.
These engines are NOT easy to use. you have to program and script to make them work, because they are bare bones, and they JUST became available at these prices.
But what happens when the kits for these engines begin to show up, so that any modder can throw up a world, and tweak it however they want to?
3-5k players, and donations will easily pay for the server, plus put money in the developers pocket.
And you can do wahtever you want. Long grinds, PvP, perma death worlds, tough PvE that requires grouping, adult themed scrips for quests, however you want to do it.
I don't think the key is waiting for a big AAA blockbuster MMO that caters to what the old school gamers want. I think it will be something like when the Muds first became popular, only with a cool MMO kit, using one of the new low priced engines.
This is something I have long thought about myself. I think this is something we'll see in the next decade or so. The main issue is development time. The kits would have to be in place where a complete noob could quickly toss something together, while a patient person could build a real world.
A company that created a good engine, with easy to use tools, and sold it at a fair enough price could change the industry.
The question remains: what's the use of playing such a thing for 2-3 months and then see it dies because of the limits of single server populations?
You would play it like a fantasy boardgame? Hardly worth any long term investment, the key point of an mmo that keeps you playing.
The internet is already full with such niche kind of games and it always strikes me how short lived all these experiences really are and how amateurish (and really bad) these things turn out.
Let's take a VERY POPULAR example: there was an excellent computer version of Clue once on line. While it was supported by MS in the gaming zone, it had quite a good following. You could always find around 6 or 7 on line games to participate. The moment it was dropped from the Zone, dozens of supporting websites tried to fill the gap with the same software.
After 3 or 4 months there simply were no on going games anymore.
And ... no misunderstanding: we are talking here about a game of Clue (dozens of millions play the boardgame, massively known with rules 1.000 times easier than Wow and prepared playing sessions of 30 minutes)...
Don't tell me this system of amateur led but "extreme hardcore old time MMO play" could even survive the initial months on the web these days.
This is already happening, and was happenening for many years. Look at projects like WURM or haven & hearth... The problem is there isn't enough people to make the game interesting. This niche is small and many people enjoy whining more than playing any game, then the rest want something very specific and can't compromise.... Those 2 game which are as old-school-oriented and hardcore as games get can barely get 200-300 concurent players.
It would be nice to see a scientific survey of what those EQ1 and UO players who played in 90's are doing now. Are most of them still playing an MMO? Or have most gotten families and moved on?
The demographics of the Internet has changed a lot since the EQ1 and UO days.
I've given up. We aren't going to get a new UO, EQ, AC or a DAoC. I've latched onto a game that I normally would never have given a chance back then. The genre is lost for people that want world simulations... Lost for people that want flexibility in character advancement (skill systems) and lost for players that want group focused, community based games. It's over. Either get in line and join a game that takes advantage of 10% of what the genre could offer or leave. I decided to line up, I'm tired of arguing, tired of hoping for the next sandbox...
Im just tired of playing the same games. As some other Inteligent posters have said, the genre havent changed much in the past 6-8 years. Why? I dont know... I still play EvE because its the last of its kind, and I never know what will happen when I log in.
I dont really care if its sandbox or a theampark I just want something diffrent that I havent seen or played before. I think the Age factor comes in here to some degree. If you are old enough you have just seen it all before. So lets hope we get some new young devs that want to make something New! becuse the genre really needs it...
You don't need 10 million players in your game, right? Of course not, you can't play with them all.
A full server, something like 3-5k on the server (not sure how many logged on at the same time), is all you really need to have fun, right?
I think the 3d version of the Mud is coming. Just in the last year some remarkeable things have happenedin the engine department.
Hero Engine is available for 5,000 dollars. The same engine used to make TOR. BWT, used to makes lots of asian F2P games, is available for 300 bucks.
I don't think even a small company can survive in the long run with 3-5K players. 20K is fine enough if you cut the costs but there is a lot of costs with running a company and a game.
As for 3D muds they kinda already exists, I am thinking about Biowares old "Neverwinter nights". Something similar are bound to release again, where people pretty easy can make their own adventures and dungeons. The Aurora toolset did require some small knowledge of C programming but it was easy and fast. I played on many persistent servers at the time.
There is room for several games like that.
But it is a very different project to make your own MMO and it cost a lot more than most people think.
Im just tired of playing the same games. As some other Inteligent posters have said, the genre havent changed much in the past 6-8 years. Why? I dont know... I still play EvE because its the last of its kind, and I never know what will happen when I log in.
I dont really care if its sandbox or a theampark I just want something diffrent that I havent seen or played before. I think the Age factor comes in here to some degree. If you are old enough you have just seen it all before. So lets hope we get some new young devs that want to make something New! becuse the genre really needs it...
It hasn't changed much in that small time frame because it takes 5+ years to make a quality game. Is it that hard to understand? If by this time next year at least ONE game hasn't blown us away, then I propose that we just suck it up and enjoy what we get. I'm hedging all my bets though on GW2, SWTOR and RIFT.
I've given up. We aren't going to get a new UO, EQ, AC or a DAoC. I've latched onto a game that I normally would never have given a chance back then. The genre is lost for people that want world simulations... Lost for people that want flexibility in character advancement (skill systems) and lost for players that want group focused, community based games. It's over. Either get in line and join a game that takes advantage of 10% of what the genre could offer or leave. I decided to line up, I'm tired of arguing, tired of hoping for the next sandbox...
There is always hope.
The problem with todays MMOs is that they are almost all based on a single pen and paper game: D&D. And while D&D were a brilliant game in the mid 70s a lot of better games have come since then.
Sooner or later will RPG fans make MMOs based on other P&P games, CCP is working on a game based on "Vampire" and I am sure we will see other sooner or later, particularly when more European companies start with MMOs (D&D is more or less the only P&P game in the US but in EU it is far from the most popular).
D&D is the least flexible RPG game I ever played and yet is almost every single MMO using it's mechanics but with more levels.
Mechanics like Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Palladium, Runequest, Warhammer fantasy RPG, KULT and many more would work great in MMOs, but most companies have been to cowardly to try something besides what everyone else is using.
If WoDO becomes a hit I hope that will change.
I am BTW not saying that the current MMO mechanics sucks, I am saying that using the same mechanics for every single game sucks because I can't choose the system I prefer which I can in P&P games.
It hasn't changed much in that small time frame because it takes 5+ years to make a quality game. Is it that hard to understand? If by this time next year at least ONE game hasn't blown us away, then I propose that we just suck it up and enjoy what we get. I'm hedging all my bets though on GW2, SWTOR and RIFT.
Cryptic spend 2 years on their games and they are still the same as the rest. It is true that MMOs take longer to make and therefor are changing slower but we are basically still playing EQ since the last 12 years and that is way beyond slow.
I think it is more about as long as no one else does something new the devs only play safe cads.
I am also looking forward to those games and to WodO, it seems like things are finally starting to change a bit soon. But the genre really took it's time.
I will try out all these new games and if they feel the least bit fresh I will buy the box and play for at least a month just to support any company trying out something different (unless they are totally incompetent, I prefer not to reward that).
Sadly is still the best online game I ever played Biowares "Neverwinter nights". And someone should have topped that a long time ago.
It's like remembering and reminiscing about the good 'ol days. I would say we had a peak in MMOs around Ultima Onlnes release to Star Wars big changes. After that things have been going slowly downhill and there hasn't been any gripping releases. Everything that comes out is just clones of each other with a few things changed. Nothing new, innovative, or groundbreaking.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
It hasn't changed much in that small time frame because it takes 5+ years to make a quality game. Is it that hard to understand? If by this time next year at least ONE game hasn't blown us away, then I propose that we just suck it up and enjoy what we get. I'm hedging all my bets though on GW2, SWTOR and RIFT.
Cryptic spend 2 years on their games and they are still the same as the rest. It is true that MMOs take longer to make and therefor are changing slower but we are basically still playing EQ since the last 12 years and that is way beyond slow.
I think it is more about as long as no one else does something new the devs only play safe cads.
I am also looking forward to those games and to WodO, it seems like things are finally starting to change a bit soon. But the genre really took it's time.
I will try out all these new games and if they feel the least bit fresh I will buy the box and play for at least a month just to support any company trying out something different (unless they are totally incompetent, I prefer not to reward that).
Sadly is still the best online game I ever played Biowares "Neverwinter nights". And someone should have topped that a long time ago.
I disagree on the Cryptic comment. Their games are horrible in comparison to just about any true MMORPG in the last 10 years. They don't make worlds, they make games with instances. Big difference. Of course, that's just my opinion. Because I do look at VG and see an awesome world...but I think their vision of the game wasn't evolved enough. They tried to capture the old game feel (mechanics wise) instead of doing something new and less tedious. So in retrospect, their issue was the game design itself not so much the world building.
Interesting when you think about it, it's almost as if, during development, if you don't do every aspect of an MMO right, then it won't do well or wont' be recieved well. Hmmm...which means they maybe need to cook them for far longer and have better testing metrics to figure this stuff out before they ship.
Comments
What you mean Donald is not going to turn up?
The gaming kit idea and player designed modding are the only two ideas I have seen that could give us a broader range of MMO games. Even the two MMO's I am keeping an eye on, GW2 and Rifts can hardly said to be breaking the mould theme wise.
I do partialy blame the increasing lower age of players for what has happened. We moved from PC's to include consoles, do you think that consoles had a higher age demographic? There are many factors to all this, but catering for teenagers is one of them.
I think the above is a very strong post covering many core problems the players face (not so much the industry).
The problem with all single server based games has always been that the game is launched, grows and then dies with 3K players.
Even the old time MUD's had very much the same problem. the average MUD server had a "healthy" life expectancy of 4 to 6 months. I said AVERAGE. After that it was over. If one or two key persons stopped, the game was really over and out
I have seen it a few months ago. In our club some enthousiasts decided to revive the thing. After 2 months it's over and out.
Causes? Too many things interfere and come out and disperse the recruiting field, old mechanics. Recruiting past the initial period is zero.
I think if you would mold the MUD into the latest 3D, you would get the exact same thing happening. Even in commercial AAA launched MMO's you see the same thing: there are too few people interested to guarantee "living" server populations.
If you really would call it niche, you'd have 5K players: but this means zero in MMO land after X months of play.
The future only lays with huge AAA launches and hope that they will include "some" elements you really like or else: simply adapt.
The present day on line player wants to play NOW with the least downtime possible. That can only be achieved in 2 ways:
- Leave the single server concept, cluster all your players worldwide with all consequences.
- Very short playing sessions to have the attention span of the average ADHD 14 year old and grandma Simpson (30 minutes).
If you want other kinds of experiences, you'll have to grab to non video games. Like I said very nice board wargames and fantasy games and pens and paper experiences out there.
But ... really ... we have to be honest too : a VIDEO game is not very suited to play 8 hour sessions on single servers these days.
This kind of play is a thing of the past and it will never come back.
Market forces at work.
The market spoke quite strongly on what they prefer and when there is a demand there will be a supply (for Profit of course).
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
This is something I have long thought about myself. I think this is something we'll see in the next decade or so. The main issue is development time. The kits would have to be in place where a complete noob could quickly toss something together, while a patient person could build a real world.
A company that created a good engine, with easy to use tools, and sold it at a fair enough price could change the industry.
The question remains: what's the use of playing such a thing for 2-3 months and then see it dies because of the limits of single server populations?
You would play it like a fantasy boardgame? Hardly worth any long term investment, the key point of an mmo that keeps you playing.
The internet is already full with such niche kind of games and it always strikes me how short lived all these experiences really are and how amateurish (and really bad) these things turn out.
Let's take a VERY POPULAR example: there was an excellent computer version of Clue once on line. While it was supported by MS in the gaming zone, it had quite a good following. You could always find around 6 or 7 on line games to participate. The moment it was dropped from the Zone, dozens of supporting websites tried to fill the gap with the same software.
After 3 or 4 months there simply were no on going games anymore.
And ... no misunderstanding: we are talking here about a game of Clue (dozens of millions play the boardgame, massively known with rules 1.000 times easier than Wow and prepared playing sessions of 30 minutes)...
Don't tell me this system of amateur led but "extreme hardcore old time MMO play" could even survive the initial months on the web these days.
This is already happening, and was happenening for many years. Look at projects like WURM or haven & hearth... The problem is there isn't enough people to make the game interesting. This niche is small and many people enjoy whining more than playing any game, then the rest want something very specific and can't compromise.... Those 2 game which are as old-school-oriented and hardcore as games get can barely get 200-300 concurent players.
It would be nice to see a scientific survey of what those EQ1 and UO players who played in 90's are doing now. Are most of them still playing an MMO? Or have most gotten families and moved on?
The demographics of the Internet has changed a lot since the EQ1 and UO days.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Im just tired of playing the same games. As some other Inteligent posters have said, the genre havent changed much in the past 6-8 years. Why? I dont know... I still play EvE because its the last of its kind, and I never know what will happen when I log in.
I dont really care if its sandbox or a theampark I just want something diffrent that I havent seen or played before. I think the Age factor comes in here to some degree. If you are old enough you have just seen it all before. So lets hope we get some new young devs that want to make something New! becuse the genre really needs it...
I don't think even a small company can survive in the long run with 3-5K players. 20K is fine enough if you cut the costs but there is a lot of costs with running a company and a game.
As for 3D muds they kinda already exists, I am thinking about Biowares old "Neverwinter nights". Something similar are bound to release again, where people pretty easy can make their own adventures and dungeons. The Aurora toolset did require some small knowledge of C programming but it was easy and fast. I played on many persistent servers at the time.
There is room for several games like that.
But it is a very different project to make your own MMO and it cost a lot more than most people think.
It hasn't changed much in that small time frame because it takes 5+ years to make a quality game. Is it that hard to understand? If by this time next year at least ONE game hasn't blown us away, then I propose that we just suck it up and enjoy what we get. I'm hedging all my bets though on GW2, SWTOR and RIFT.
There is always hope.
The problem with todays MMOs is that they are almost all based on a single pen and paper game: D&D. And while D&D were a brilliant game in the mid 70s a lot of better games have come since then.
Sooner or later will RPG fans make MMOs based on other P&P games, CCP is working on a game based on "Vampire" and I am sure we will see other sooner or later, particularly when more European companies start with MMOs (D&D is more or less the only P&P game in the US but in EU it is far from the most popular).
D&D is the least flexible RPG game I ever played and yet is almost every single MMO using it's mechanics but with more levels.
Mechanics like Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Palladium, Runequest, Warhammer fantasy RPG, KULT and many more would work great in MMOs, but most companies have been to cowardly to try something besides what everyone else is using.
If WoDO becomes a hit I hope that will change.
I am BTW not saying that the current MMO mechanics sucks, I am saying that using the same mechanics for every single game sucks because I can't choose the system I prefer which I can in P&P games.
Cryptic spend 2 years on their games and they are still the same as the rest. It is true that MMOs take longer to make and therefor are changing slower but we are basically still playing EQ since the last 12 years and that is way beyond slow.
I think it is more about as long as no one else does something new the devs only play safe cads.
I am also looking forward to those games and to WodO, it seems like things are finally starting to change a bit soon. But the genre really took it's time.
I will try out all these new games and if they feel the least bit fresh I will buy the box and play for at least a month just to support any company trying out something different (unless they are totally incompetent, I prefer not to reward that).
Sadly is still the best online game I ever played Biowares "Neverwinter nights". And someone should have topped that a long time ago.
Hopefully the next generation will demand something more.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It's like remembering and reminiscing about the good 'ol days. I would say we had a peak in MMOs around Ultima Onlnes release to Star Wars big changes. After that things have been going slowly downhill and there hasn't been any gripping releases. Everything that comes out is just clones of each other with a few things changed. Nothing new, innovative, or groundbreaking.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
I disagree on the Cryptic comment. Their games are horrible in comparison to just about any true MMORPG in the last 10 years. They don't make worlds, they make games with instances. Big difference. Of course, that's just my opinion. Because I do look at VG and see an awesome world...but I think their vision of the game wasn't evolved enough. They tried to capture the old game feel (mechanics wise) instead of doing something new and less tedious. So in retrospect, their issue was the game design itself not so much the world building.
Interesting when you think about it, it's almost as if, during development, if you don't do every aspect of an MMO right, then it won't do well or wont' be recieved well. Hmmm...which means they maybe need to cook them for far longer and have better testing metrics to figure this stuff out before they ship.