With the wide choices for customization, you can at least tweek your character to compete. Typically, you're limited by your class choice. Now most players will mostly be limited by their 'spec' choice.
They've said you can have 4 specs available to swap anytime out of combat. I don't see why you can't have:
With the wide choices for customization, you can at least tweek your character to compete. Typically, you're limited by your class choice. Now most players will mostly be limited by their 'spec' choice.
They've said you can have 4 specs available to swap anytime out of combat. I don't see why you can't have:
1. Solo build (i.e. the fun build)
2. Group/dungeon build
3. PvP build
4. ???? Profit?!
The ability to do with will depend on how the game is balanced. If content designers develop content knowing that people can switch then this situation might disappear.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
With the wide choices for customization, you can at least tweek your character to compete. Typically, you're limited by your class choice. Now most players will mostly be limited by their 'spec' choice.
They've said you can have 4 specs available to swap anytime out of combat. I don't see why you can't have:
1. Solo build (i.e. the fun build)
2. Group/dungeon build
3. PvP build
4. ???? Profit?!
I remember that 3-4 spec message or writing somewhere too. I'd like to know how it's done. I also remember something about "out-of-combat", but haven't seen anything screen-shotty or video related to it. It's early yet, but none-the-less, a cool concept. I can imagine a tabbed soul tree(s), but again havent seen anything.
With the wide choices for customization, you can at least tweek your character to compete. Typically, you're limited by your class choice. Now most players will mostly be limited by their 'spec' choice.
They've said you can have 4 specs available to swap anytime out of combat. I don't see why you can't have:
1. Solo build (i.e. the fun build)
2. Group/dungeon build
3. PvP build
4. ???? Profit?!
I remember that 3-4 spec message or writing somewhere too. I'd like to know how it's done. I also remember something about "out-of-combat", but haven't seen anything screen-shotty or video related to it. It's early yet, but none-the-less, a cool concept. I can imagine a tabbed soul tree(s), but again havent seen anything.
"
Curse:: How many points will you have available for your souls at max level? Previous info alludes to 1 per level, but the last root ability is at 51 points. Is there any point acquisition aside from leveling?
Scott Hartsman: It is tied to one point per level, and what we fully expect to happen when we release is the same thing that's happening now in testing. We made the idea of having different roles, or what you might think of as a spec, available for purchase. So don't think of it as "man I've only got one point, and if I want ability X I have to invest in all of it and now I'm locked in". If you have four roles you can swap back and forth between, then great, you might have a paladin soul you use for a dungeon, and then one push button away you have a role that has spoints spread across other souls. The character I'm playing on alpha right now has two specs I use, if I'm just plugging through content I'm just 100% Beastmaster. I can also switch to my soul set that's 75% paladin, and 25% beastmaster because there are some good synergies there. Then when I want something new I switch to my other set which is part Champion and part Beastmaster. The point is you're able to take on multiple roles and switch between them at will. You can buy additional role slots at your trainer and you're able to put the roles right on your hot bar and swap anytime you're not in combat. It gives players a level of infinite discovery, and lets them find new and interesting combos to do without getting tired of their characters."
With the wide choices for customization, you can at least tweek your character to compete. Typically, you're limited by your class choice. Now most players will mostly be limited by their 'spec' choice.
They've said you can have 4 specs available to swap anytime out of combat. I don't see why you can't have:
1. Solo build (i.e. the fun build)
2. Group/dungeon build
3. PvP build
4. ???? Profit?!
I remember that 3-4 spec message or writing somewhere too. I'd like to know how it's done. I also remember something about "out-of-combat", but haven't seen anything screen-shotty or video related to it. It's early yet, but none-the-less, a cool concept. I can imagine a tabbed soul tree(s), but again havent seen anything.
"
Curse:: How many points will you have available for your souls at max level? Previous info alludes to 1 per level, but the last root ability is at 51 points. Is there any point acquisition aside from leveling?
Scott Hartsman: It is tied to one point per level, and what we fully expect to happen when we release is the same thing that's happening now in testing. We made the idea of having different roles, or what you might think of as a spec, available for purchase. So don't think of it as "man I've only got one point, and if I want ability X I have to invest in all of it and now I'm locked in". If you have four roles you can swap back and forth between, then great, you might have a paladin soul you use for a dungeon, and then one push button away you have a role that has spoints spread across other souls. The character I'm playing on alpha right now has two specs I use, if I'm just plugging through content I'm just 100% Beastmaster. I can also switch to my soul set that's 75% paladin, and 25% beastmaster because there are some good synergies there. Then when I want something new I switch to my other set which is part Champion and part Beastmaster. The point is you're able to take on multiple roles and switch between them at will. You can buy additional role slots at your trainer and you're able to put the roles right on your hot bar and swap anytime you're not in combat. It gives players a level of infinite discovery, and lets them find new and interesting combos to do without getting tired of their characters."
There it is. Thx. So you buy extra "role" slots at a trainer. I'd imagine, as eluded to, you'd only be able to swap between out of combat too, then. Ok...should be interesting. Im sure you can fully respec one spec for a price too, if you can purchase another role. I can hear the gold-sellers in-bound now for those that wont want to re-roll after a month of play.
It will be impossible to balance not nessisarily due to any failure of Rift, but simply because "balance" is completely subjective, and nine times out of ten, you could have an ideally "balanced" game, and half the community will still run riot bitching about how OP the guy who just killed them is.
As a side note, I would imagine the easiest way to "balance" something like this would be to balance skills and abiliies around PvP, as it's considerably less predictable, and work that balance into the PvE encounters. You can always change a mobs stats, you can't keep Timmy from spending 46 hours non-stop crafting a completely stacked stunlock warrior-mage.
4. Balancing a PvP game while still giving players a lot of customization options is damn, damn, damn hard.
These are the only points you made that really matter. Once you balanced the PvP game(and no, that doesn't necessarily have to be balanced around solo ability), the PvE can be balanced around that. Mobs are designed to die, anyway; you're not going to hurt their feelings if players have the advantage. The problem with PvP in most MMOs is the devs start with a PvE game, then throw in the PvP almost as an afterthought.
Gear based stat progression and static stats with all the archtypes sharing base stats to begin with. It looks way more complicated than it is.
I dunno that. Few other MMOs are even close to balanced. And the souls have different attacks.
You have to consider FPS, stuns (if they are in the game not sure), conditions like crippled and other specific skills, armor, weapons.... And the souls should be balanced against eachothers just like the classes.
No, it wont be easy, balancing is one of the hardest parts. That said they might do it, but it will be hard anyways.
If it would be easy the other games would be balanced but games like Wow, LOTRO, AoC, EQ2 and WAR are all pretty bad here. That if nothing else should tell us balancing is hard.
Each spec should be overpowered in something special.
Most battles in PvP games are not fought 1v1.
I want to go into a battle knowing there is a real chance I might get my avatar wiped out fast if I don't work well with my buddies and have a full knowledge of what to do when x, y or z happens.
In EQ I thought it was excellent that a large group of wizards aoe killed half our raid while we were resting in between battles. It's knowing your character's specials and when to run or fight that will determine pvp in many games.
If there are a few stun lockers messing you up while others are damaging you, then talk in ventrilo to your team mates to all target the stun locker...or maybe there will be specs that allow you to break free of stuns or become immune to them for x amount of time.
So many posibilities. I am not in beta but am very interested in the character abilities and multiple directions you can go with character development.
If you want 100% balance that will never happen because -
A) balance is party opinion
balance is party perception
Even if you had a super alien computer program that could statisticly balance out 20 classes with countless specs... opinion and perception would still rule the day.
That being said I think it's sad that you guys can't even let them try before you go doomsaying.. it's like OMG I HATE WOW I WANT SOMETHING NEW WAAAAAAAAA.. WAIT A NEW GAME YOU SAY?! NAH IT WILL FAIL!!!!!!!!!
That being said I think it's sad that you guys can't even let them try before you go doomsaying.. it's like OMG I HATE WOW I WANT SOMETHING NEW WAAAAAAAAA.. WAIT A NEW GAME YOU SAY?! NAH IT WILL FAIL!!!!!!!!!
Endless cycle.
So wouldn't it be wise for game designers to move on to a unique system? Rather than reskin something done?
Cycle fixed. The market has told everyone that following the status quo for the current generation of MMOs fails. Also making something different (like APB or Mortal Online) without planning out the big picture (or releasing too early like FFXIV) also fails.
That being said I think it's sad that you guys can't even let them try before you go doomsaying.. it's like OMG I HATE WOW I WANT SOMETHING NEW WAAAAAAAAA.. WAIT A NEW GAME YOU SAY?! NAH IT WILL FAIL!!!!!!!!!
Endless cycle.
So wouldn't it be wise for game designers to move on to a unique system? Rather than reskin something done?
Cycle fixed. The market has told everyone that following the status quo for the current generation of MMOs fails. Also making something different (like APB or Mortal Online) without planning out the big picture (or releasing too early like FFXIV) also fails.
I just think most developers are crap currently.
Well the problem is that when people here say they want a "unique system" it is usually code for "I want a classless skill based system". I think that personally just turns into players just making a few cookie cutter skill sets... and then you have classes again. It's an illusion of choice.
I was thinking developers should try a different method of balancing. Now if you're saying they should try something totally different outside of the 2 options we've been presented, I'm totally for it.
That being said I think it's sad that you guys can't even let them try before you go doomsaying.. it's like OMG I HATE WOW I WANT SOMETHING NEW WAAAAAAAAA.. WAIT A NEW GAME YOU SAY?! NAH IT WILL FAIL!!!!!!!!!
Endless cycle.
So wouldn't it be wise for game designers to move on to a unique system? Rather than reskin something done?
Cycle fixed. The market has told everyone that following the status quo for the current generation of MMOs fails. Also making something different (like APB or Mortal Online) without planning out the big picture (or releasing too early like FFXIV) also fails.
I just think most developers are crap currently.
Well the problem is that when people here say they want a "unique system" it is usually code for "I want a classless skill based system". I think that personally just turns into players just making a few cookie cutter skill sets... and then you have classes again. It's an illusion of choice.
I was thinking developers should try a different method of balancing. Now if you're saying they should try something totally different outside of the 2 options we've been presented, I'm totally for it.
Having choice is meaningless if 90% of the choices suck. That isn't balanced. Take RTS's for example, then can be balanced as in both sides are on an equal footing, but if only 5 out of the 25 accessable units are being used that means the other 20 units are unbalanced.
That is what Rift seems to be shooting for. An illusion of choice.
That being said I think it's sad that you guys can't even let them try before you go doomsaying.. it's like OMG I HATE WOW I WANT SOMETHING NEW WAAAAAAAAA.. WAIT A NEW GAME YOU SAY?! NAH IT WILL FAIL!!!!!!!!!
Endless cycle.
So wouldn't it be wise for game designers to move on to a unique system? Rather than reskin something done?
Cycle fixed. The market has told everyone that following the status quo for the current generation of MMOs fails. Also making something different (like APB or Mortal Online) without planning out the big picture (or releasing too early like FFXIV) also fails.
I just think most developers are crap currently.
Well the problem is that when people here say they want a "unique system" it is usually code for "I want a classless skill based system". I think that personally just turns into players just making a few cookie cutter skill sets... and then you have classes again. It's an illusion of choice.
I was thinking developers should try a different method of balancing. Now if you're saying they should try something totally different outside of the 2 options we've been presented, I'm totally for it.
Having choice is meaningless if 90% of the choices suck. That isn't balanced. Take RTS's for example, then can be balanced as in both sides are on an equal footing, but if only 5 out of the 25 accessable units are being used that means the other 20 units are unbalanced.
That is what Rift seems to be shooting for. An illusion of choice.
I concur this. Without being in a possesion of any magical orb I can easily guess that within a month after release you will be seeing everyone sporting pretty much the same thing and people spamming things like "LFM pyro XX instance" and all this stuff if they are not doing it in beta already. Vast class system is one of the few selling points of this game and it already seems to be going the down way, while it was initially an interesting concept it simply cannot reach its potential. This game has absolutely nothing to offer.
That being said I think it's sad that you guys can't even let them try before you go doomsaying.. it's like OMG I HATE WOW I WANT SOMETHING NEW WAAAAAAAAA.. WAIT A NEW GAME YOU SAY?! NAH IT WILL FAIL!!!!!!!!!
Endless cycle.
So wouldn't it be wise for game designers to move on to a unique system? Rather than reskin something done?
Cycle fixed. The market has told everyone that following the status quo for the current generation of MMOs fails. Also making something different (like APB or Mortal Online) without planning out the big picture (or releasing too early like FFXIV) also fails.
I just think most developers are crap currently.
Well the problem is that when people here say they want a "unique system" it is usually code for "I want a classless skill based system". I think that personally just turns into players just making a few cookie cutter skill sets... and then you have classes again. It's an illusion of choice.
I was thinking developers should try a different method of balancing. Now if you're saying they should try something totally different outside of the 2 options we've been presented, I'm totally for it.
Hmm... Number crunching could help, but that'd be bad at the moment.
Regardless there's been plenty of games absolutely balanced, but people see greener fields across every other side of the fence and it doesn't seem so.
As for something different; what you described has been done before hasn't it?
If I was talking about what I preferred in code I'd have just said; I like games that let me assign every last point whenever I progress like Shadowbane. You didn't have to go hit a mob or a player to skill up, you didn't have to have uber loot to be adequet. You made your character's stats what they were and from a huge list picked out their skill set and powered it up. No click grinding, no liner progression (unless you wanted to do so).
I think just going pen & paper again with MMOs would be a nice back to the drawing board type of scheme. Try not to strive for balance, but obviously correct gross manipulations of the system.
But even from that there has to be a developer out there who isn't completely lazy or disillusioned and can create something new.
It is simply impossible to balance PVE and PVP and allow diversity of builds and characters. That is a simple truth and is why any true PVP game allows each side to have identicle access to the exact same things. The only MMO that really tried to have diversity between factions and weapon and came remotely close to maintaining balance was Planetside and they still have one faction that is OP'd and balance is still an issue.
The best way to do any MMO is to ether pick PVE or PVP and balance around one and not both. It looks like they are going to balance around PVE in Rift and let the PVP work itself out. This is the best way in my opinion. WOW tried to turn their PVE game into more of a PVP game and the end result was that PVE got nerfed big time for the sake of PVP. Because end game PVE gear was so much better than PVP gear they gave PVP gear away to compensate. Thus completely killing the risk vs reward that WOW use to have. But I degress......
Again, I hope they balance on PVE and let PVP work itself out. If you want to PVP then pick a class/build that is good at PVP and don't expect every class to be able to PVP well. And lets pray they don't cave into the complainers on the forums when it comes to PVP.
I think they're bouncing on that fact that the game has many roles to be played. With the soul system and the classes on the website you're looking at so many different ways to play your character.
Souls to choose:
(Warrior Only)
DPS DPS DPS
SUPPORT DPS DPS
SUPPORT TANK DPS
SUPPORT TANK TANK
DPS TANK TANK
SUPPORT SUPPORT DPS
SUPPORT SUPPORT TANK
DPS DPS TANK
Then, beyond this you also have your talents that you can align however you want.
The only thing they need to do, which isn't easy, is allow spots for these roles.
Comments
They've said you can have 4 specs available to swap anytime out of combat. I don't see why you can't have:
1. Solo build (i.e. the fun build)
2. Group/dungeon build
3. PvP build
4. ???? Profit?!
How to create pvp balance without changing any characters.
1. Add castle warfare.
2. Give castles the abilities to counter the most unbalanced abilities.
3. Now you have balance. Kinda. For castles, anyways.
How to create PvE balance:
....
....
....
Don't even bother, if you try to do it, you only end up in a perpetual cycle of nerfs and buffs, which ruins balance...(cough. WoW. Cough)
The ability to do with will depend on how the game is balanced. If content designers develop content knowing that people can switch then this situation might disappear.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
I remember that 3-4 spec message or writing somewhere too. I'd like to know how it's done. I also remember something about "out-of-combat", but haven't seen anything screen-shotty or video related to it. It's early yet, but none-the-less, a cool concept. I can imagine a tabbed soul tree(s), but again havent seen anything.
"
Curse:: How many points will you have available for your souls at max level? Previous info alludes to 1 per level, but the last root ability is at 51 points. Is there any point acquisition aside from leveling?
Scott Hartsman: It is tied to one point per level, and what we fully expect to happen when we release is the same thing that's happening now in testing. We made the idea of having different roles, or what you might think of as a spec, available for purchase. So don't think of it as "man I've only got one point, and if I want ability X I have to invest in all of it and now I'm locked in". If you have four roles you can swap back and forth between, then great, you might have a paladin soul you use for a dungeon, and then one push button away you have a role that has spoints spread across other souls. The character I'm playing on alpha right now has two specs I use, if I'm just plugging through content I'm just 100% Beastmaster. I can also switch to my soul set that's 75% paladin, and 25% beastmaster because there are some good synergies there. Then when I want something new I switch to my other set which is part Champion and part Beastmaster. The point is you're able to take on multiple roles and switch between them at will. You can buy additional role slots at your trainer and you're able to put the roles right on your hot bar and swap anytime you're not in combat. It gives players a level of infinite discovery, and lets them find new and interesting combos to do without getting tired of their characters."
http://www.curse.com/articles/rift-news/799723.aspx
There it is. Thx. So you buy extra "role" slots at a trainer. I'd imagine, as eluded to, you'd only be able to swap between out of combat too, then. Ok...should be interesting. Im sure you can fully respec one spec for a price too, if you can purchase another role. I can hear the gold-sellers in-bound now for those that wont want to re-roll after a month of play.
lmao..
To think Rift will fail is completely and utterly foolish.
It will be impossible to balance not nessisarily due to any failure of Rift, but simply because "balance" is completely subjective, and nine times out of ten, you could have an ideally "balanced" game, and half the community will still run riot bitching about how OP the guy who just killed them is.
As a side note, I would imagine the easiest way to "balance" something like this would be to balance skills and abiliies around PvP, as it's considerably less predictable, and work that balance into the PvE encounters. You can always change a mobs stats, you can't keep Timmy from spending 46 hours non-stop crafting a completely stacked stunlock warrior-mage.
If they can pull this off they will become the new king of fantasy pvp.
These are the only points you made that really matter. Once you balanced the PvP game(and no, that doesn't necessarily have to be balanced around solo ability), the PvE can be balanced around that. Mobs are designed to die, anyway; you're not going to hurt their feelings if players have the advantage. The problem with PvP in most MMOs is the devs start with a PvE game, then throw in the PvP almost as an afterthought.
Are you saying he's foolish for saying a "game" will fail or you saying he's foolish because he says "Rift" will fail?
This is not a game.
It'll be easy to balance.
Gear based stat progression and static stats with all the archtypes sharing base stats to begin with. It looks way more complicated than it is.
Well I did say "Rift" in my comment..
Though either way you slice it,it will take ALOT to go wrong for Rift to fail and Im just not seeing that happening.
I dunno that. Few other MMOs are even close to balanced. And the souls have different attacks.
You have to consider FPS, stuns (if they are in the game not sure), conditions like crippled and other specific skills, armor, weapons.... And the souls should be balanced against eachothers just like the classes.
No, it wont be easy, balancing is one of the hardest parts. That said they might do it, but it will be hard anyways.
If it would be easy the other games would be balanced but games like Wow, LOTRO, AoC, EQ2 and WAR are all pretty bad here. That if nothing else should tell us balancing is hard.
It's more balanced than you think.
I concur.
This is all I can say.
Balancing shouldn't be the main focus anyways.
Each spec should be overpowered in something special.
Most battles in PvP games are not fought 1v1.
I want to go into a battle knowing there is a real chance I might get my avatar wiped out fast if I don't work well with my buddies and have a full knowledge of what to do when x, y or z happens.
In EQ I thought it was excellent that a large group of wizards aoe killed half our raid while we were resting in between battles. It's knowing your character's specials and when to run or fight that will determine pvp in many games.
If there are a few stun lockers messing you up while others are damaging you, then talk in ventrilo to your team mates to all target the stun locker...or maybe there will be specs that allow you to break free of stuns or become immune to them for x amount of time.
So many posibilities. I am not in beta but am very interested in the character abilities and multiple directions you can go with character development.
If you want 100% balance that will never happen because -
A) balance is party opinion
Even if you had a super alien computer program that could statisticly balance out 20 classes with countless specs... opinion and perception would still rule the day.
That being said I think it's sad that you guys can't even let them try before you go doomsaying.. it's like OMG I HATE WOW I WANT SOMETHING NEW WAAAAAAAAA.. WAIT A NEW GAME YOU SAY?! NAH IT WILL FAIL!!!!!!!!!
Endless cycle.
So wouldn't it be wise for game designers to move on to a unique system? Rather than reskin something done?
Cycle fixed. The market has told everyone that following the status quo for the current generation of MMOs fails. Also making something different (like APB or Mortal Online) without planning out the big picture (or releasing too early like FFXIV) also fails.
I just think most developers are crap currently.
Well the problem is that when people here say they want a "unique system" it is usually code for "I want a classless skill based system". I think that personally just turns into players just making a few cookie cutter skill sets... and then you have classes again. It's an illusion of choice.
I was thinking developers should try a different method of balancing. Now if you're saying they should try something totally different outside of the 2 options we've been presented, I'm totally for it.
Having choice is meaningless if 90% of the choices suck. That isn't balanced. Take RTS's for example, then can be balanced as in both sides are on an equal footing, but if only 5 out of the 25 accessable units are being used that means the other 20 units are unbalanced.
That is what Rift seems to be shooting for. An illusion of choice.
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!
I concur this. Without being in a possesion of any magical orb I can easily guess that within a month after release you will be seeing everyone sporting pretty much the same thing and people spamming things like "LFM pyro XX instance" and all this stuff if they are not doing it in beta already. Vast class system is one of the few selling points of this game and it already seems to be going the down way, while it was initially an interesting concept it simply cannot reach its potential. This game has absolutely nothing to offer.
Hmm... Number crunching could help, but that'd be bad at the moment.
Regardless there's been plenty of games absolutely balanced, but people see greener fields across every other side of the fence and it doesn't seem so.
As for something different; what you described has been done before hasn't it?
If I was talking about what I preferred in code I'd have just said; I like games that let me assign every last point whenever I progress like Shadowbane. You didn't have to go hit a mob or a player to skill up, you didn't have to have uber loot to be adequet. You made your character's stats what they were and from a huge list picked out their skill set and powered it up. No click grinding, no liner progression (unless you wanted to do so).
I think just going pen & paper again with MMOs would be a nice back to the drawing board type of scheme. Try not to strive for balance, but obviously correct gross manipulations of the system.
But even from that there has to be a developer out there who isn't completely lazy or disillusioned and can create something new.
It is simply impossible to balance PVE and PVP and allow diversity of builds and characters. That is a simple truth and is why any true PVP game allows each side to have identicle access to the exact same things. The only MMO that really tried to have diversity between factions and weapon and came remotely close to maintaining balance was Planetside and they still have one faction that is OP'd and balance is still an issue.
The best way to do any MMO is to ether pick PVE or PVP and balance around one and not both. It looks like they are going to balance around PVE in Rift and let the PVP work itself out. This is the best way in my opinion. WOW tried to turn their PVE game into more of a PVP game and the end result was that PVE got nerfed big time for the sake of PVP. Because end game PVE gear was so much better than PVP gear they gave PVP gear away to compensate. Thus completely killing the risk vs reward that WOW use to have. But I degress......
Again, I hope they balance on PVE and let PVP work itself out. If you want to PVP then pick a class/build that is good at PVP and don't expect every class to be able to PVP well. And lets pray they don't cave into the complainers on the forums when it comes to PVP.
I think they're bouncing on that fact that the game has many roles to be played. With the soul system and the classes on the website you're looking at so many different ways to play your character.
Souls to choose:
(Warrior Only)
DPS DPS DPS
SUPPORT DPS DPS
SUPPORT TANK DPS
SUPPORT TANK TANK
DPS TANK TANK
SUPPORT SUPPORT DPS
SUPPORT SUPPORT TANK
DPS DPS TANK
Then, beyond this you also have your talents that you can align however you want.
The only thing they need to do, which isn't easy, is allow spots for these roles.
He who keeps his cool best wins.