In PvE? Who cares? If you are a good warrior, then you will be still a good warrior too if you are for a few months a few % worse in tanking or dealing damage because of a patch. And if you are a mage and your friend who is a ranger deals because of a patch 10% more damage in PvE? Seriously: what does it matter? PvE is about achieving something together. If my buddy is buffed in a patch and we are thus having a higher chance to get through some events, then I'm happy about it. I'm not stomping my foot and crying "why does he deal 10% more damage? I want that too! WHY WHY WHY! That's so unfair!". People who consider their friends and guildmates as rivals in PvE seriously didn't understand the basic concept or have some personality issues.
And PvP? Completly balanced PvP can not exist in MMORPGs. First there are the outside facts, like who is how old, has what reactions, is distracted by his surroundings in what way, has a how powerful computer blablabla. Is it fair that a 60 year old coming home from work loses to a 22 year old who has better reactions? Not to mention that in the end, in MMORPGs often not the better players win, but those who spent more time grinding, or who spent more money on the cash shop. Balance my ass. If you play an MMORPG for PvP then forget balance for gods sake. If there are huge design flaws in the game: sure, complain about that, why not. But most often the players exaggerate any balance issues, especially when said players are beaten constantly, while at the same time the developers try to minimize balance problems. Don't like it? Don't play PvP in MMORPGs.
The right view on balance in PvP MMORPGs is rather the one where you play your favorite class and try to do your best. In the end, it depends on you and how good you are as a player what results you will get. If you spent your time crying about a patch or how unfair everything is, instead of just trying to be a good player, then you deserve to get bad results. Sometimes it will be a tiny bit more difficult because of a patch, sometimes it will be somewhat easier because of a patch. In the long run: it doesn't matter.
If you have a fetish for balance and PvP: play chess. Not MMORPGs.
In PvE? Who cares? If you are a good warrior, then you will be still a good warrior too if you are for a few months a few % worse in tanking or dealing damage because of a patch. And if you are a mage and your friend who is a ranger deals because of a patch 10% more damage in PvE? Seriously: what does it matter? PvE is about achieving something together. If my buddy is buffed in a patch and we are thus having a higher chance to get through some events, then I'm happy about it. I'm not stomping my foot and crying "why does he deal 10% more damage? I want that too! WHY WHY WHY! That's so unfair!". People who consider their friends and guildmates as rivals in PvE seriously didn't understand the basic concept or have some personality issues.
And PvP? Completly balanced PvP can not exist in MMORPGs. First there are the outside facts, like who is how old, has what reactions, is distracted by his surroundings in what way, has a how powerful computer blablabla. Is it fair that a 60 year old coming home from work loses to a 22 year old who has better reactions? Not to mention that in the end, in MMORPGs often not the better players win, but those who spent more time grinding, or who spent more money on the cash shop. Balance my ass. If you play an MMORPG for PvP then forget balance for gods sake. If there are huge design flaws in the game: sure, complain about that, why not. But most often the players exaggerate any balance issues, especially when said players are beaten constantly, while at the same time the developers try to minimize balance problems. Don't like it? Don't play PvP in MMORPGs.
The right view on balance in PvP MMORPGs is rather the one where you play your favorite class and try to do your best. In the end, it depends on you and how good you are as a player what results you will get. If you spent your time crying about a patch or how unfair everything is, instead of just trying to be a good player, then you deserve to get bad results. Sometimes it will be a tiny bit more difficult because of a patch, sometimes it will be somewhat easier because of a patch. In the long run: it doesn't matter.
If you have a fetish for balance and PvP: play chess. Not MMORPGs.
In PvE? Most people care. Unless you want to feel "behind" then you ought to follow the best options. A good player with good talents is better than a good player with bad talents and that's what matters in the end. All of this potential Rift has for the soul system will be crushed sooner than later. Everyone will be sporting the same thing and it won't take long until you see "LFM pyro XX instance!!" or something similar along the lines of tank, heal, dps or aoe. Theorycrafters will come up with the best build for dps, tank and heal and there you are, a game that utilizes only 10% of what it can do and simply can't go further. Game ends there.
In PvP? Everyone cares. While balancing cannot be achieved easily in MMOs and most have zero sense of it, you do get the chance that you will beat someone who has a better build than you or some other class. In Rift that will never happen against someone who is sporting the ultimate build. You simply cannot go the way you like it anymore. In order to be competitive you will have to do it like everyone else or you will be shred.
balance doesn't matter in Rift because Rift is mostly a PvE game. That said, its not impossible to balance the game. If someone uses all CC skills, you just need to add immunity to the game. Also, given how the system works, you can also remove a player's ability to stack tree buffs that do the same thing ,or cap it.
If they take the wow approach, where every class can do everything... then yes it will be impossible to balance.however, if they stick to roles and group balance, it will be fine.
Everyone is talking about 1v1 pvp blance here, in groups it doesn't matter. Hopefully they take a different approach than wow did, where classes can do everything and they try to balance pvp for arenas and 1v1.
TL:DR Rift is trying to offer huge character customizability, well balanced PVE and well balanced PVP. This combination is virtually impossible to pull off. Unless the developers are super human or have access to advanced alien technology they are going to fail somewhere along the line.
Now I’m not a video game developer, I train horses for a living, but I still know that the following points are absolutely true and apply to every Genre of video games.
1. Balancing a single player PVE game while still giving the player a lot of customization is hard.
2. Balancing a Multiplayer PVE game while still giving the players a lot of customization options is damn hard.
3. Balancing a PvP game period is damn hard.
4. Balancing a PvP game while still giving players a lot of customization options is damn, damn, damn hard.
5. Balancing a game with both PvE and PvP is ridiculously damn hard.
6. Balancing a game with both PvP and PvE while still giving players a lot of customization options is practically impossible.
Don’t believe me? Lets look at some examples.
World of Warcraft. Why dose WoW still have only 10 classes when its six years old? Why doesn’t it have a lot more character customization options? Contrary to popular opinion among the unwashed pigs uneducated masses of the internet its not because WoW’s developers are lazy or stupid, its because they are trying to balance both PVE and PVP endgames. Which is ridiculously hard. You have no idea. Seriously.
Halo. Why can we only play the master chief or a character exactly equivalent to him? Why are there so few power ups? Why aren’t there like 500 different kinds of weapon? Because character customization has been sacrificed on the alter of balance once again.
Warhammer online. WAR launched with cut classes, terrible character customization and a joke of a PvE endgame. Mythic spend the better part of a year and a half on damage control trying to get a semblance of PvP balance going. Now this didn’t happen because they were completely incompetent. It happened because they were somewhat incompetent and because it is ridiculously hard to balance twenty PvP classes.
Dark Age of Camelot. DAoC managed to achieve a fairly high level of customizability and a mediocre level of PvP balance. Then Mythic absolutely !#$%ed themselves over when they tried to make an EQ style PvE endgame in Trials of Atlantis.
Diablo 3. The developers said at Blizzcon that they are not going to even try and balance the game for PvP. Its all about the PvE and the ridiculous level of customization. PvP is a meta game thing with no associated rewards. A lot of people were displeased with this announcement. Ten years ago I would have been one of them. However after years of experience with multiplayer and massively multiplayer games I applaud them whole heartedly.
Runescape classic circa 2002. This may be the rose tinted goggles of teenage innocence talking but this was a pretty balanced game as long as you were a 1 defense pure PvP build. Which of course meant that all PvE builds died screaming. The whole reason that the whole game was so balanced though was the limited number of weapons and complete lack of any real customization beyond grind whatever style of combat you wanted to use.
So basically unless the very fabric of the universe comes unglued or something Rift is either going to have some serious balance issues. Its unavoidable. You can’t balance huge numbers of character customization options across both PVE and PVP. You either have limited talent combinations that work like WoW, or you have to rip out PVP like Diablo, or you have to rip out PVE like Warhammer should have.
So, it's hard, maybe even impossible, to ever truly balance a game with so much variation, should there only be one class? That'd be easy to balance I guess. Make everyone the same, static attributes that never change, naked, with a stick... No balance issues there. As long as everyone's stick is the same size you're golden.
Or, are you suggesting they should just give up development now because it's hard?
Balance is over-rated. Some days you are the windshield, some days you are the bug... As long as you are given the tools you need to fulfil your role who cares if you are exactly the same as everyone else?
Besides, this game will be fun whether it's "balanced" or not.
More often than not classes are not imbalanced, people just don't know how to play them and than proceed to cry on the forums until their class get's buffed, and end up still sucking than they whine some more. It's an endless cycle of crying thus imbalance is perceived when it does not exist.
If I want to play PVP I am not playing a game where my gear, build and levels matter more than my skill. If I wanna play PVP I can play Tekken, Quake, Starcraft. or many other games. I play MMOs to play WITH ppl not AGAINST them.
If I want to play PVP I am not playing a game where my gear, build and levels matter more than my skill. If I wanna play PVP I can play Tekken, Quake, Starcraft. or many other games. I play MMOs to play WITH ppl not AGAINST them.
If I want to play PVP I am not playing a game where my gear, build and levels matter more than my skill. If I wanna play PVP I can play Tekken, Quake, Starcraft. or many other games. I play MMOs to play WITH ppl not AGAINST them.
I like to play WITH my guild or close friends as well.....WHILE WE ARE GANKING PEOPLE AND MAKING THEM DO CORPSE RUNS!!!! MUAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
Seriously though. If anyone here has payed even a remote bit of interest to some of the videos about the different builds, you will find that almost all of them have huge glowing reasons to play in both PvE and PvP and the ability I have seen in videos that allows you to change your guy on the fly will be a game changer.
There will be NO ultimate build for PvP or PvE. All must work together with thier groups and factions to get ahead in the game. Just because someone thinks a class combo is the best doesn't mean it is. The best class combo is the one that fits your play style and the one you have the most fun with.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by TheHavok If they can pull this off they will become the new king of fantasy pvp.
Until GW2 comes out that is. Just saying I'm putting my money on the current favorite and previous champion. They have experience in this sort of thing. ...and Izzy is The Man. EDIT: And didn't the Trion say something that balance wont be a priority or that they wont be focusing on in that much (as much as Anet does atleast). Lol dude give it a rest for a bit. We get it already, we really do.
While I do agree, trying to balance PVE and PVP is probably next to impossible in the same game, (one will always suffer more than the other) I'm not so sure balance is all that important.
Time for stupid sports analogies.
When playing any competitive activity there's one thing thats certain,while the rules/equipment may be the same for everyone, their talents certainly aren't, and at least in team sports, its how well you craft your team that determines the victor.
In single player PVP (and sports) the question of balance becomes far more important, and of course no one really wants to play a class that has no chance to win against another. Making every class balanced against every other is impossible, we'd all have to play the same class then. That's why the rock, paper, scissors approach is so often employed, much easier to keep things "fair" by making it easier to defeat some foes than others.
I think the thing people fail to realize is .... you don't always have to win (or have it even possible to win) to have fun playing a game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Balance will not be an issue in this game which is why i think the devs will not need to focus on it too much. As there are so many class combo's to make in this game for every "OP" class combo there will be a counter for it readily at hand.
I think that this will be good for the game too. I mean how many of you are sick of "cookie cutter" builds that people on raids/pvp guilds would expect you to be? And any deviation from it is not welcomed but rather laughed at as you are "gimping your dps/healing/tanking". I know I am. Being different and trying out something new actually is punished in quite a fair few other mmo's.
In rift I know there will still be "cookie cutter" specs placed on boards that people will follow, but as soon as a spec becomes well known/used its counter becomes just as well known and used. And this I think will be fantastic for a mmorpg. People will be rewarded for trying out new things and working things out for themselves rather than blindly following a guide on a forum somewhere. In pvp, whilst they might not on paper have the most dps/healing potential/tank survivablity their calling can have because so few people have come up against that combo of souls there won't be a counter to it so they will be much more successful than others in their calling who followed a guide blindly. It would also reward them in pve as they'll understand their calling alot better than others, so when they come to a new encounter they will be able to work out which combo will work best for them.
So as I said, balance will not be a problem in this game imo, for pvp the players themselves will create balance and for pve all the devs would need to do if an encounter is too hard/difficult is scale the dmg the encounter does up/down or tweak the encounter mechanics and so not need to touch classes at all. Just my opinion on all this ofc.
Who cares whether it is completely balanced (whatever the fxxx that means) I would argue that mmo's by their nature should not be balanced. Certainly not 1 v 1 anyway. Go and play a game designed to give you the same equip the same spec the same chance no matter who you are logging in.
If mmo makers made a balanced game what would we have? 1 fing class with 1 fing set of abilities. boooooooooring
I for one am glad their are a huge number of specs possible , the possibility to gimp your char god forbid and make something unfashionable?, regardless of what the number crunchers say there will always be a number of really skilled players that choose a completely different spec and playstyle who then go on to dominate and prove that thinking outside the box or simply being very good can change the outcome.
Maybe for me being a pvper for so long means I am able to get past my erage and move on when I have been decimated by that Left Axe zerk , or blasted by that BW or kited from range by that Ranger.
AC - Harvestgain DAOC - Mordred WoW - Burning Blade EQ2 - Nagafen WAR - Dark Crag AION - Castor RIFT - Whitefall SWTOR - TOFN GW2 - Desolation
Keep in mind there are two kinds of balance. There is balancing between classes (popular in recent years) that tries to make all classes equal power against all others and usually ends horribly. Then there is balance overall, which tries to make it such that no single class is always underpowered (warriors may not solo well, but are tops in groups, for instance).
As far as I can tell, Rift will have neither outside of just giving us so many options that it all becomes fuzzy anyhow. The truth is, min/maxer raid guilds will always find the 'best' options, but in Rift they're going to find the best option among a lot of poor ones that others may be using.
The result: Everyone flocks to the few overpowered builds in each class, and it was pointless to have so many options in the first place. Or everyone plays underpowered builds, complains like crazy that it isn't fair, and in the end Rift devs WILL have to spend time and resources balancing the game.
Either way, their current hands off position seems wishful thinking on their part.
TL:DR Rift is trying to offer huge character customizability, well balanced PVE and well balanced PVP. This combination is virtually impossible to pull off. Unless the developers are super human or have access to advanced alien technology they are going to fail somewhere along the line.
This is what I heard and could just be rumor but.....
I think they did get access to a super human alien hybrid. The codename of this secret tech is Ultraman.
So you see there really is nothing to worry about. the game will be balanced or fun or both for sure.
Many other game developers were working with sub-par tech before this company found the secret. I hope they can keep it under wraps or patent it.
Why is everyone so deadset on equality between all players. I hate balanced games because everyone comes out the same. I see nothing wrong with a game that's more focused on a balanced group than balanced individuals. I would rather see a game where players can pick what they want to be, be it max DPS with low armor, mid range of everything, CC heavy, etc etc. and then let the game force balance through teamwork.
Because creating unfair 1v1 games lead to making casuals happy because they have the abillity to "win" generally even if they suck hard.
It doesnt promote fair and challenging competition, it simply promotes fun for the unskilled masses aka the money
Not that 1v1 can be perfectly balanced but at least you dont base your game on casuals by making it intentionally rock paper scissors
As I was saying about unwashed pigs, I mean uneducated masses. Those two bits in red. Guess what WoW is based on group balence not 1v1. Ask any of the thousands of Rogues who have been murdered by my Warrior or the even larger number who have decimated my priest. All MMO's that I have played are based on group PvP not 1v1.
You do not understand what I mean by balance. Balance means that every class has a role that is useful in a group situation. Every class also has to have somthing to counter it. It means that there arn't a whole load of useless worthless throw away specializations that completely suck and are out performed by some other class.
That is a truely well balanced game with a lot of customization options. Having a lot of options is pointless in 90% of them suck.
Idk about the 1v1 balance issue you speak of with WoW, because when i still played in TBC I could kill any class with my enhance shammy.. Just sayin.
Here is an important point to make about the difference between Rift and Wow.
It has already been on videos and dev interviews but here goes.
As you spend initial points in a skill it will unlock many subskills. This beginning is where you will have the most choice of skill customization.
As you put more points into a single soul tree you unlock the next rank down which is a smaller and smaller amount of choices of skill to focus on until you get to a final ability.
Nobody really knows at this point weather the final ability will MAKE your character or not. If they do it like WoW (example taken druid druid tree) where you have "TREE OF LIFE" changing player into tree for insane boosts to heal, or the "moonkin form" which gives insane boosts to nukes......these are extremely deep in the tree and so they offer a large reward for going down the tree to at least that point. I remember a time earlier in the game when having a mix of the base of balance and healing gave a huge boost to my feral build. Without those boosts my survival ability would have been alot lower. This was a good time in the game since it gave you very good reasons to mix your talent trees.
I am hoping they do the same with this game and make a good reason to have a mix of 3 of the many skill trees available to each spec for whatever type of gameplay you are trying to accomplish. I wouldn't mind having many diverse rolls in the game similar to the feral spec in WoW where you cast heal over times and thorn coats and then pull with a natures swarm and then flip into bear and charge and start the swipes and pop survival instincts if fighting a boss or a few melee types, then switch to cat to finish if they start to run. It was the complexity of all the needed spells and abilities working from several trees that made the magic happen. Without points put into those trees you were about 1/3 as effective.
Wow has 10 classes with 3 talant trees each -> 30 specs
Rift has 4 calsses with 8(?) talant trees each -> 32 specs.
I dont see how it will be harder to balance then WoW.
Rift has 20 classes, 10 for each faction. you can have a total of 3 extra souls, and you can have 4 different builds per character.
Plus Rift is also listing 'Coming soon' under classes. That being said, I think the people whining about balancing are kind of silly, I mean its made it through closed beta phase 1; 99% of people haven't seen the guardian faction yet, 99% haven't done any pvp yet, and no one has made it to end game. Arguing about this or complaining how this isn't going to be balanced is useless at best. Most of the people who have had any experience playing the game are still under NDA and those who are breaking it are either fanboys or people who hate it (I like to call them people who play wow). So any info you get unless it's first hand is probably going to be heavily biased anyway.
I will say this, the complexity of this game will balance it. There are so many builds you could have, that having one 'uber' build wont matter because somebody will just push a button and bam they are tweaked to fight you. I also don't get the whole argument of balancing. I don't get why a priest needs to be able to fight 1 v 1 against a rogue, or a warrior needs to be able to fight a mage. The whole point of playing a mmo is to have a customized avatar that you connect with, if they are all cookie cutter then where is the customization? I mean if you are playing only for pvp and want completely balanced fights, then why not go play a fps?
Also another side note, I can't go into it, but i dont think the majority of people even know how the classes play. I was pretty shocked in beta how some classes behaved, Rift is definitly it's own MMO. And to all the people saying the soul thing is like WoW, you really need to play some older MMO's. Just because WoW has talent tree's doesn't mean that everything is based off it. EQ had Advancement tree's too, as well as a ton of other MMO's. Not everything is WoW, in fact my brief time playing Rift showed me just how bad the MMO scene really is, RIFT was a breath of fresh air. I am really looking forward to what they have in store.
Comments
Until GW2 comes out that is.
Just saying I'm putting my money on the current favorite and previous champion. They have experience in this sort of thing. ...and Izzy is The Man.
EDIT: And didn't the Trion say something that balance wont be a priority or that they wont be focusing on in that much (as much as Anet does atleast).
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
"Balance" in MMORPGs? Pffff... Why?
In PvE? Who cares? If you are a good warrior, then you will be still a good warrior too if you are for a few months a few % worse in tanking or dealing damage because of a patch. And if you are a mage and your friend who is a ranger deals because of a patch 10% more damage in PvE? Seriously: what does it matter? PvE is about achieving something together. If my buddy is buffed in a patch and we are thus having a higher chance to get through some events, then I'm happy about it. I'm not stomping my foot and crying "why does he deal 10% more damage? I want that too! WHY WHY WHY! That's so unfair!". People who consider their friends and guildmates as rivals in PvE seriously didn't understand the basic concept or have some personality issues.
And PvP? Completly balanced PvP can not exist in MMORPGs. First there are the outside facts, like who is how old, has what reactions, is distracted by his surroundings in what way, has a how powerful computer blablabla. Is it fair that a 60 year old coming home from work loses to a 22 year old who has better reactions? Not to mention that in the end, in MMORPGs often not the better players win, but those who spent more time grinding, or who spent more money on the cash shop. Balance my ass. If you play an MMORPG for PvP then forget balance for gods sake. If there are huge design flaws in the game: sure, complain about that, why not. But most often the players exaggerate any balance issues, especially when said players are beaten constantly, while at the same time the developers try to minimize balance problems. Don't like it? Don't play PvP in MMORPGs.
The right view on balance in PvP MMORPGs is rather the one where you play your favorite class and try to do your best. In the end, it depends on you and how good you are as a player what results you will get. If you spent your time crying about a patch or how unfair everything is, instead of just trying to be a good player, then you deserve to get bad results. Sometimes it will be a tiny bit more difficult because of a patch, sometimes it will be somewhat easier because of a patch. In the long run: it doesn't matter.
If you have a fetish for balance and PvP: play chess. Not MMORPGs.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
In PvE? Most people care. Unless you want to feel "behind" then you ought to follow the best options. A good player with good talents is better than a good player with bad talents and that's what matters in the end. All of this potential Rift has for the soul system will be crushed sooner than later. Everyone will be sporting the same thing and it won't take long until you see "LFM pyro XX instance!!" or something similar along the lines of tank, heal, dps or aoe. Theorycrafters will come up with the best build for dps, tank and heal and there you are, a game that utilizes only 10% of what it can do and simply can't go further. Game ends there.
In PvP? Everyone cares. While balancing cannot be achieved easily in MMOs and most have zero sense of it, you do get the chance that you will beat someone who has a better build than you or some other class. In Rift that will never happen against someone who is sporting the ultimate build. You simply cannot go the way you like it anymore. In order to be competitive you will have to do it like everyone else or you will be shred.
balance doesn't matter in Rift because Rift is mostly a PvE game. That said, its not impossible to balance the game. If someone uses all CC skills, you just need to add immunity to the game. Also, given how the system works, you can also remove a player's ability to stack tree buffs that do the same thing ,or cap it.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
If they take the wow approach, where every class can do everything... then yes it will be impossible to balance.however, if they stick to roles and group balance, it will be fine.
Everyone is talking about 1v1 pvp blance here, in groups it doesn't matter. Hopefully they take a different approach than wow did, where classes can do everything and they try to balance pvp for arenas and 1v1.
So, it's hard, maybe even impossible, to ever truly balance a game with so much variation, should there only be one class? That'd be easy to balance I guess. Make everyone the same, static attributes that never change, naked, with a stick... No balance issues there. As long as everyone's stick is the same size you're golden.
Or, are you suggesting they should just give up development now because it's hard?
Balance is over-rated. Some days you are the windshield, some days you are the bug... As long as you are given the tools you need to fulfil your role who cares if you are exactly the same as everyone else?
Besides, this game will be fun whether it's "balanced" or not.
More often than not classes are not imbalanced, people just don't know how to play them and than proceed to cry on the forums until their class get's buffed, and end up still sucking than they whine some more. It's an endless cycle of crying thus imbalance is perceived when it does not exist.
I couldn't care less if pvp is not balanced.
If I want to play PVP I am not playing a game where my gear, build and levels matter more than my skill. If I wanna play PVP I can play Tekken, Quake, Starcraft. or many other games. I play MMOs to play WITH ppl not AGAINST them.
Hear Hear!
I like to play WITH my guild or close friends as well.....WHILE WE ARE GANKING PEOPLE AND MAKING THEM DO CORPSE RUNS!!!! MUAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
Seriously though. If anyone here has payed even a remote bit of interest to some of the videos about the different builds, you will find that almost all of them have huge glowing reasons to play in both PvE and PvP and the ability I have seen in videos that allows you to change your guy on the fly will be a game changer.
There will be NO ultimate build for PvP or PvE. All must work together with thier groups and factions to get ahead in the game. Just because someone thinks a class combo is the best doesn't mean it is. The best class combo is the one that fits your play style and the one you have the most fun with.
Just saying I'm putting my money on the current favorite and previous champion. They have experience in this sort of thing. ...and Izzy is The Man.
EDIT: And didn't the Trion say something that balance wont be a priority or that they wont be focusing on in that much (as much as Anet does atleast).
Lol dude give it a rest for a bit. We get it already, we really do.
While I do agree, trying to balance PVE and PVP is probably next to impossible in the same game, (one will always suffer more than the other) I'm not so sure balance is all that important.
Time for stupid sports analogies.
When playing any competitive activity there's one thing thats certain,while the rules/equipment may be the same for everyone, their talents certainly aren't, and at least in team sports, its how well you craft your team that determines the victor.
In single player PVP (and sports) the question of balance becomes far more important, and of course no one really wants to play a class that has no chance to win against another. Making every class balanced against every other is impossible, we'd all have to play the same class then. That's why the rock, paper, scissors approach is so often employed, much easier to keep things "fair" by making it easier to defeat some foes than others.
I think the thing people fail to realize is .... you don't always have to win (or have it even possible to win) to have fun playing a game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Balance will not be an issue in this game which is why i think the devs will not need to focus on it too much. As there are so many class combo's to make in this game for every "OP" class combo there will be a counter for it readily at hand.
I think that this will be good for the game too. I mean how many of you are sick of "cookie cutter" builds that people on raids/pvp guilds would expect you to be? And any deviation from it is not welcomed but rather laughed at as you are "gimping your dps/healing/tanking". I know I am. Being different and trying out something new actually is punished in quite a fair few other mmo's.
In rift I know there will still be "cookie cutter" specs placed on boards that people will follow, but as soon as a spec becomes well known/used its counter becomes just as well known and used. And this I think will be fantastic for a mmorpg. People will be rewarded for trying out new things and working things out for themselves rather than blindly following a guide on a forum somewhere. In pvp, whilst they might not on paper have the most dps/healing potential/tank survivablity their calling can have because so few people have come up against that combo of souls there won't be a counter to it so they will be much more successful than others in their calling who followed a guide blindly. It would also reward them in pve as they'll understand their calling alot better than others, so when they come to a new encounter they will be able to work out which combo will work best for them.
So as I said, balance will not be a problem in this game imo, for pvp the players themselves will create balance and for pve all the devs would need to do if an encounter is too hard/difficult is scale the dmg the encounter does up/down or tweak the encounter mechanics and so not need to touch classes at all. Just my opinion on all this ofc.
Who cares whether it is completely balanced (whatever the fxxx that means) I would argue that mmo's by their nature should not be balanced. Certainly not 1 v 1 anyway. Go and play a game designed to give you the same equip the same spec the same chance no matter who you are logging in.
If mmo makers made a balanced game what would we have? 1 fing class with 1 fing set of abilities. boooooooooring
I for one am glad their are a huge number of specs possible , the possibility to gimp your char god forbid and make something unfashionable?, regardless of what the number crunchers say there will always be a number of really skilled players that choose a completely different spec and playstyle who then go on to dominate and prove that thinking outside the box or simply being very good can change the outcome.
Maybe for me being a pvper for so long means I am able to get past my erage and move on when I have been decimated by that Left Axe zerk , or blasted by that BW or kited from range by that Ranger.
AC - Harvestgain
DAOC - Mordred
WoW - Burning Blade
EQ2 - Nagafen
WAR - Dark Crag
AION - Castor
RIFT - Whitefall
SWTOR - TOFN
GW2 - Desolation
And practically all others to some degree
Keep in mind there are two kinds of balance. There is balancing between classes (popular in recent years) that tries to make all classes equal power against all others and usually ends horribly. Then there is balance overall, which tries to make it such that no single class is always underpowered (warriors may not solo well, but are tops in groups, for instance).
As far as I can tell, Rift will have neither outside of just giving us so many options that it all becomes fuzzy anyhow. The truth is, min/maxer raid guilds will always find the 'best' options, but in Rift they're going to find the best option among a lot of poor ones that others may be using.
The result: Everyone flocks to the few overpowered builds in each class, and it was pointless to have so many options in the first place. Or everyone plays underpowered builds, complains like crazy that it isn't fair, and in the end Rift devs WILL have to spend time and resources balancing the game.
Either way, their current hands off position seems wishful thinking on their part.
According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.
Wow has 10 classes with 3 talant trees each -> 30 specs
Rift has 4 calsses with 8(?) talant trees each -> 32 specs.
I dont see how it will be harder to balance then WoW.
Raid leaders are going to have a blast with this, watch.
More like class leaders.
The game will balance itself better than standard 1 class game imo due to the fact that we can change build when ooc.
You can take any "class balance" post and change the title to People will never be happy.
Will it be balanced: NO
Will they change some things: Yes
Will someone find a way to exploit the system: Of Course
There is only one opinion that matters.
Yep, will make filling raids super-easy. Need a bard? Any rogue willing to spec to it will do!
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
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Currently Playing: ESO
This is what I heard and could just be rumor but.....
I think they did get access to a super human alien hybrid. The codename of this secret tech is Ultraman.
So you see there really is nothing to worry about. the game will be balanced or fun or both for sure.
Many other game developers were working with sub-par tech before this company found the secret. I hope they can keep it under wraps or patent it.
Idk about the 1v1 balance issue you speak of with WoW, because when i still played in TBC I could kill any class with my enhance shammy.. Just sayin.
Here is an important point to make about the difference between Rift and Wow.
It has already been on videos and dev interviews but here goes.
As you spend initial points in a skill it will unlock many subskills. This beginning is where you will have the most choice of skill customization.
As you put more points into a single soul tree you unlock the next rank down which is a smaller and smaller amount of choices of skill to focus on until you get to a final ability.
Nobody really knows at this point weather the final ability will MAKE your character or not. If they do it like WoW (example taken druid druid tree) where you have "TREE OF LIFE" changing player into tree for insane boosts to heal, or the "moonkin form" which gives insane boosts to nukes......these are extremely deep in the tree and so they offer a large reward for going down the tree to at least that point. I remember a time earlier in the game when having a mix of the base of balance and healing gave a huge boost to my feral build. Without those boosts my survival ability would have been alot lower. This was a good time in the game since it gave you very good reasons to mix your talent trees.
I am hoping they do the same with this game and make a good reason to have a mix of 3 of the many skill trees available to each spec for whatever type of gameplay you are trying to accomplish. I wouldn't mind having many diverse rolls in the game similar to the feral spec in WoW where you cast heal over times and thorn coats and then pull with a natures swarm and then flip into bear and charge and start the swipes and pop survival instincts if fighting a boss or a few melee types, then switch to cat to finish if they start to run. It was the complexity of all the needed spells and abilities working from several trees that made the magic happen. Without points put into those trees you were about 1/3 as effective.
Rift has 20 classes, 10 for each faction. you can have a total of 3 extra souls, and you can have 4 different builds per character.
Plus Rift is also listing 'Coming soon' under classes. That being said, I think the people whining about balancing are kind of silly, I mean its made it through closed beta phase 1; 99% of people haven't seen the guardian faction yet, 99% haven't done any pvp yet, and no one has made it to end game. Arguing about this or complaining how this isn't going to be balanced is useless at best. Most of the people who have had any experience playing the game are still under NDA and those who are breaking it are either fanboys or people who hate it (I like to call them people who play wow). So any info you get unless it's first hand is probably going to be heavily biased anyway.
I will say this, the complexity of this game will balance it. There are so many builds you could have, that having one 'uber' build wont matter because somebody will just push a button and bam they are tweaked to fight you. I also don't get the whole argument of balancing. I don't get why a priest needs to be able to fight 1 v 1 against a rogue, or a warrior needs to be able to fight a mage. The whole point of playing a mmo is to have a customized avatar that you connect with, if they are all cookie cutter then where is the customization? I mean if you are playing only for pvp and want completely balanced fights, then why not go play a fps?
Also another side note, I can't go into it, but i dont think the majority of people even know how the classes play. I was pretty shocked in beta how some classes behaved, Rift is definitly it's own MMO. And to all the people saying the soul thing is like WoW, you really need to play some older MMO's. Just because WoW has talent tree's doesn't mean that everything is based off it. EQ had Advancement tree's too, as well as a ton of other MMO's. Not everything is WoW, in fact my brief time playing Rift showed me just how bad the MMO scene really is, RIFT was a breath of fresh air. I am really looking forward to what they have in store.