Good writeup! Mostly agree, though I'm less enthusiastic in the areas you considered strong.
I didn't have much time to play, so I can't give much more than a first impression, but it seems to me like it's the game that CO was hoping to be: Fast paced, with much more free movement than most. It moves more in the stooge/boss direction, where you can rip into 4-5 mobs at once, with occasional bosses that are more challenging; this is what the superhero genre is all about. Animations are quite good, as well. I liked the abundance of breakables and throwables around. What few travel powers there are feel pretty good. The game also performs pretty well, for a beta with debug on full. Speaking of...
Some significant bugs. I crashed a few times in just a short amount of play. Tried messing with gfx options which instantly locked the game. Defeated mobs got stuck halfway through their death animations. Superman spent most of his time walking around doing nothing during the boss battle. All these things can be fixed, though, and I suspect they will be.
As far as spending 15 bucks a month on it... I probably won't. The power system is just too limiting for me to get into my character. And the rest of it just takes casual to a level that even my LotRO loving self can't get much out of.
I'll probably keep playing here and there, and submitting tha' buggities. It IS fun, I just can't see it staying that way, month after month... And my reasons for that is in its design; it has nothing to do with its beta status.
I'm not enjoying this game much at all. Powersets and character creation are poor compared to Champions Online. Targeting system is poor, you have to lock to be effective and when using a controller 'who' you will lock onto is questionable. Even a small lag spike can mess up a combo you are trying to do. I know these issues may improve over time and that it's a beta.
You do almost exactly the same thing as in APB, and that failed badly. Hub, mission, mission, hub, ignore most over players cos communication is shockingly bad. It'll do well because of the brand name but other than that it feels like playing an average console third person action game. I'm thankful I wasn't expecting anything from this game.
The only thing I think it has done right is introduce a decent loot system to a hero MMO.. but this game is far from an RPG. I'm not sure whether it claimed to be an rpg or not, but it isn't. Its marvel ultimate alliance 2 online really, with standard MMO quests/missions (grind in other words, but hidden better than most MMO's due to the action).
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Its marvel ultimate alliance 2 online really, with standard MMO quests/missions (grind in other words, but hidden better than most MMO's due to the action).
Or MUA's DC counterpart, whose name escapes me.
I got a bit of that impression, too. And that's why I have a hard time imagining paying month to month. I enjoyed the MUA games too, but, well... I stopped playing them. I don't think persistent MP or end-game raiding for uber lootz would have kept me playing. And for the record I have no idea what the "end game" is for DCUO, so any of my assumptions here on what it is could be false.
Having played around with DCUO for a few days now I can see the game doing well at launch due to the franchise and the core gameplay being fun but losing players rapidly before the first month of free playtime expires due to a seemly lack of content. Out of the games 30 levels you can easly hit 20 just by following the mission hubs in 2-3 days and unless SOE plan on really slowing down leveling speed after that with hundreds of low xp missions I fail to see how SOE plan on keeping customers paying.
Giving SOE a pass for the moment on the current woeful state of some elements of the game by having a better UI and character creator in the game at launch, the current content feels like a F2P model with the money being made via charged content packs.
That is the problem with most MMO players, is that they feel that once you reach max level that the game is over with and the end game is supposed to kick in and have you grind for loot all day to stay entertaining.
DCUO isn't focusing on the leveling process because levels mean much less in this game then other games. The content can easily get you from 1 to 20 in a few days time and you'd still have tons of quests that you haven't done.
In DCUO progression doesn't STOP because you're capped, progression STOPs when you stop going through the entirety of the content. What DCUO does WRONG is that they don't present the total progression package properly. Powers are only a very small part of character progression, skills, to me, are much more important. You can gain skill points through feats, and feats aren't marketed and found easily enough for the new player to grasp them.
At level 20, I have 45 skill points. I've been playing for over a month and I'm still progressing and working hard at doing alerts in under 20 minutes, PvPing in legends and in the open world, exploring, investigating. In a over a months worth of time being stuck capped at 9 for about 3 weeks and then capped again at 20 now, I've never run out of ways to progress my character visually or stat wise. I won't lie, in PvP and raid groups the extra skill points make a immense difference. I can't remember the last time I've lost an open world PvP match with my main character without the other side using an exploit. (though since the patch where all exploits have been fixed, I don't have that problem anymore)
Currently the game has a lot of content, but people often complain it doesn't have enough, which bothers me some. What content are they missing? Each mentors missions coupled with the starter alerts and wanted posters are enough to level to the current cap easily, though maybe they just can't find the right content? I really don't know. On the one hand more content isn't a bad thing, on the other over saturation of content can be a very bad thing if you want characters to progress through the world and level you don't want too many quests in one area. They already have 3 different areas to level for a single level range.
Lastly, as for combat, the combat is what I feel will keep many players coming back. As stated, a level 6 can kill a level 15. A level 10 can take on a level 20 and win. The competitive nature of this system will have a pretty strong following and appeal to PC and console gamers alike. One thing CO did terribly that they couldn't fix was being set in the way their combat mechanics worked. That was possibly the biggest let down for me in that game. Here SOE built this game on a strong combat foundation. Content and new power sets can be added (and is planned to be added) monthly. The core of their mechanics is what will shine through in the end and what the other two games in this sub genre can't change.
That is the problem with most MMO players, is that they feel that once you reach max level that the game is over with and the end game is supposed to kick in and have you grind for loot all day to stay entertaining.
DCUO isn't focusing on the leveling process because levels mean much less in this game then other games. The content can easily get you from 1 to 20 in a few days time and you'd still have tons of quests that you haven't done.
In DCUO progression doesn't STOP because you're capped, progression STOPs when you stop going through the entirety of the content. What DCUO does WRONG is that they don't present the total progression package properly. Powers are only a very small part of character progression, skills, to me, are much more important. You can gain skill points through feats, and feats aren't marketed and found easily enough for the new player to grasp them.
At level 20, I have 45 skill points. I've been playing for over a month and I'm still progressing and working hard at doing alerts in under 20 minutes, PvPing in legends and in the open world, exploring, investigating. In a over a months worth of time being stuck capped at 9 for about 3 weeks and then capped again at 20 now, I've never run out of ways to progress my character visually or stat wise. I won't lie, in PvP and raid groups the extra skill points make a immense difference. I can't remember the last time I've lost an open world PvP match with my main character without the other side using an exploit. (though since the patch where all exploits have been fixed, I don't have that problem anymore)
Currently the game has a lot of content, but people often complain it doesn't have enough, which bothers me some. What content are they missing? Each mentors missions coupled with the starter alerts and wanted posters are enough to level to the current cap easily, though maybe they just can't find the right content? I really don't know. On the one hand more content isn't a bad thing, on the other over saturation of content can be a very bad thing if you want characters to progress through the world and level you don't want too many quests in one area. They already have 3 different areas to level for a single level range.
Lastly, as for combat, the combat is what I feel will keep many players coming back. As stated, a level 6 can kill a level 15. A level 10 can take on a level 20 and win. The competitive nature of this system will have a pretty strong following and appeal to PC and console gamers alike. One thing CO did terribly that they couldn't fix was being set in the way their combat mechanics worked. That was possibly the biggest let down for me in that game. Here SOE built this game on a strong combat foundation. Content and new power sets can be added (and is planned to be added) monthly. The core of their mechanics is what will shine through in the end and what the other two games in this sub genre can't change.
Not sure what people are refering as not much content, what I have seen is that the content is structure so similar that there is no much replayability value as it could have. In fact the game has a lot of content for 1 character but the missions should be a bit different in structure. In CO(provided you have followed this game a bit) the first adventure pack(Serpent Lantern) was criticized because the bunker's syndrome, the starter missions consisted of conquering 3 bunkers, while they make the maps and objective and final bosses different the pattern of the bunkers were so similar that people complained, for the second one(Demonflame) they change the structure so the missions does not feel from the same blueprint.
Everything you are saying about the combat could be a double edge sword for the game. Traditionally, mmos have been under the rule of performance is mostly based on progression (levels,gear, etc), letting skill decide the last mile of the combat. By giving skill such effect on the performance it might push away, more casual and less consolish style gamers.
I haven't seen DCUO endgame so I won't say anything before having more information.
Having played around with DCUO for a few days now I can see the game doing well at launch due to the franchise and the core gameplay being fun but losing players rapidly before the first month of free playtime expires due to a seemly lack of content. Out of the games 30 levels you can easly hit 20 just by following the mission hubs in 2-3 days and unless SOE plan on really slowing down leveling speed after that with hundreds of low xp missions I fail to see how SOE plan on keeping customers paying.
Giving SOE a pass for the moment on the current woeful state of some elements of the game by having a better UI and character creator in the game at launch, the current content feels like a F2P model with the money being made via charged content packs.
Three major points about this that I think needs to be made.
1) We have not seen anywhere near all of the content, something that was verified by the devs on the beta boards. You've spent a few days playing in beta and seem to think you have seen it all. You haven't.
2) The reason there are only 30 levels is because they want us to get to the end-game quickly, instead of having a long grind to get there. They said this long ago. Getting to 30 is supposed to be fairly easy. It is a completely different approach than what other MMORPG's do. I read one interview that approximately 50% of the game content at release will be specifically for end-game play and you are currently locked at level 20. There is a lot you have not seen.
3) They have promised monthly content updates.
Do any MMO's succeed simply by slowing down leveling? Slowing down leveling makes reaching the endgame take longer,. Slowing down leveling would actually mean more content would be needed, not less. Besides, it's not leveling that keeps people playing MMORPG's, it's a stong endgame that keeps people playing long-term. We have not seen any of that content yet, so it makes no sense to speculate. They also have not mentioned anything at all about "charged content packs". That is something that you made up.
Having played around with DCUO for a few days now I can see the game doing well at launch due to the franchise and the core gameplay being fun but losing players rapidly before the first month of free playtime expires due to a seemly lack of content. Out of the games 30 levels you can easly hit 20 just by following the mission hubs in 2-3 days and unless SOE plan on really slowing down leveling speed after that with hundreds of low xp missions I fail to see how SOE plan on keeping customers paying.
Giving SOE a pass for the moment on the current woeful state of some elements of the game by having a better UI and character creator in the game at launch, the current content feels like a F2P model with the money being made via charged content packs.
Three major points about this that I think needs to be made.
1) We have not seen anywhere near all of the content, something that was verified by the devs on the beta boards. You've spent a few days playing in beta and seem to think you have seen it all. You haven't.
2) The reason there are only 30 levels is because they want us to get to the end-game quickly, instead of having a long grind to get there. They said this long ago. Getting to 30 is supposed to be fairly easy. It is a completely different approach than what other MMORPG's do. I read one interview that approximately 50% of the game content at release will be specifically for end-game play and you are currently locked at level 20. There is a lot you have not seen.
3) They have promised monthly content updates.
Do any MMO's succeed simply by slowing down leveling? Slowing down leveling makes reaching the endgame take longer,. Slowing down leveling would actually mean more content would be needed, not less. Besides, it's not leveling that keeps people playing MMORPG's, it's a stong endgame that keeps people playing long-term. We have not seen any of that content yet, so it makes no sense to speculate. They also have not mentioned anything at all about "charged content packs". That is something that you made up.
1) I never once claimed I had seen all the content in the game only that i was going through what was there very fast and much quicker than any other MMO Iv played.
2) Getting to the end game in any MMO can always be done quickly and even if 50% of the content is for end game that still dosen't seem like enough to keep people paying a subscription month after month.
3) The Dev team can say what they like but until a feature, content update or bug fix is in the live game its only talk. MMO designers in the past have promised the sun, moon and stars and failed to deliver and SOE have been amoungst the worst of the culprits.
Most MMO's slow down players in some form or another to to get you to continue subscribing by making leveling up slower towards the end of the level cap or having a cap on the amount of faction you can gain in a day/week. A strong end game is indeed important but so to is having enough content for making alt characters these days and DCUO fails bigtime on this as every character you make will do the exact same content as the first time you play though the game apart from the starter mentor mission.
I never claimed the Devs said there would be charged content packs only that makes sense considering the current low content model the game currently has not to mention there is a C-Store option in the menu which gives the impression there will be an extra charge for certain content be it fluff items or otherwise.
1) I never once claimed I had seen all the content in the game only that i was going through what was there very fast and much quicker than any other MMO Iv played.
2) Getting to the end game in any MMO can always be done quickly and even if 50% of the content is for end game that still dosen't seem like enough to keep people paying a subscription month after month.
3) The Dev team can say what they like but until a feature, content update or bug fix is in the live game its only talk. MMO designers in the past have promised the sun, moon and stars and failed to deliver and SOE have been amoungst the worst of the culprits.
Most MMO's slow down players in some form or another to to get you to continue subscribing by making leveling up slower towards the end of the level cap or having a cap on the amount of faction you can gain in a day/week. A strong end game is indeed important but so to is having enough content for making alt characters these days and DCUO fails bigtime on this as every character you make will do the exact same content as the first time you play though the game apart from the starter mentor mission.
I never claimed the Devs said there would be charged content packs only that makes sense considering the current low content model the game currently has not to mention there is a C-Store option in the menu which gives the impression there will be an extra charge for certain content be it fluff items or otherwise.
You are arguing semantics.
1) I didn't claim that you claimed that you had seen all the content. You stated that you felt the game lacked enough content to warrant a monthly fee. i simply stated that you have not seen enough of the content to accurately judge. You can't possibly speculate on endgame content, or the fun value of it, when you haven't seen it.
2) Getting to the end game is not quick, which you already know because you pointed out that other MMO's deliberately slow it down. With DCUO they wanted to do the exact opposite. Yes, certain people can power level/grind quickly to the highest level, but neither one of us were talking about those people. DCUO is designed for the average gamer to be able to get to the level cap in a relatively short period of time. They want you to spend most of your time at the end game content. That was their goal. You have not seen any of it, so you can't even speculate on it.
3) They have promised monthly updates. With 50% end game content at release and monthly updates, that should keep people paying monthly fees, just like any other MMO. You can argue that it's all talk and meaningless, but so is what you are saying. You are stating that you don't think there will be enough content for a monthly fee even though you haven't seen the content from level 20-30 or any of the endgame content. It also requires that they not even come close to monthly updates that they promised. In other words, based on nothing. The thing is, if the content is not good enough to warrant a long-term monthly fee, who cares? You cancel your membership and move on to something else. Your prediction of doom and gllom is based on what you haven't seen/experienced yet, and assumptions that they will fail to live up to their promises. I don't see the point.
You claimed not to have said there would be a charge for content packs, but if not directly said, definitely implied. **"the current content feels like a F2P model with the money being made via charged content packs"**.
My point is that you are claiming that it will not be worth a monthly fee based on absolutely nothing concrete. People don't pay monthly fees for years because of the low level content, they play because of what they can do at the endgame. When we see that, we can judge better. until then, it's not even speculation.
I will agree with you about replay ability for alt-aholics. Having 9 characters in beta, I have been one of the more outspoken people for more low level content for replay variety.
Being a mmorpg vet, and being in both the PC and PS3 beta... I have to say that while the PS3 graphics resolution is not as good as the PC version obviously, the control scheme and overall feel of the PS3 version is much better IMO. I was playing the PC version for quite a while, got into the PS3 beta, and haven't really touched the PC version since.
My only real gripe with the game at this point is that the social and chat system is terrible (speaking of the PC version here). Quite honestly, I am unsure of even really how to use it correctly. I hope they get this in order because it makes a very well put together game seem much more flawed than it actually is.
I'd agree with much of the OP. Game needs more polish mainly. My only worry is enough content to justify a sub. I can see people burning through it in a month or 2 easily..even casuals.
Yes, you'll burn through the content in a month or two. The devs have stated that they are going to adress the end-game lack of solo content issue before lauch though.
And Fallen Earth was suppose to have 5 additional zones and a level 200 cap by now.
Never believe the "We're going to release x every y" nonsense. You can't even come close to hoping to stay ahead of your playbase in that fashion, and you just end up getting behind and releasing crap content. In the 10 years I've been playing these game's I've never once seen it happen. It's a bullshit marketing ploy to get you to buy into a content light game.
Cryptic is finally getting to the point where they are keeping their promises on their monthly stuff, but it tooks over a year of just fixing basic stuff and making the game launchworthy before they could dedicate those resources. And in all honesty, Champions was in better shape w/ basic MMO functions and content than DCUO could hope to be w/ another 6 months of work.
They will spend the first year scrambling to fix bugs and add to the pitiful customization options so they are atleast remotely on par w/ other superhero MMOs. Then they will scramble to add some basic leveling content because people will be pissed on their 2-3 playthrough.... and then they will scramble to add some sort of PvE endgame for all the people that have shit else to do at level cap.... then they will scramble to fix all the PvP failure that inevitably happens in every new MMO, and then they'll be scrambling to add more powersets/abilties/mentors/etc... and FINALLY, if your lucky, they'll have the time to start adding monthly content patches that will at most take 1-2 days to complete.
Not that DCUO is hopeless. It's fun to play, the world itself is great, and the missions/voiceacting etc is really good. But alot of the basic functionality and refinement is really poor. Suprisingly poor in fact, considering SoE isn't exactly a company that doesn't have experience w/ MMO UIs/Chat/etc.
Cryptic is finally getting to the point where they are keeping their promises on their monthly stuff, but it tooks over a year of just fixing basic stuff and making the game launchworthy before they could dedicate those resources. And in all honesty, Champions was in better shape w/ basic MMO functions and content than DCUO could hope to be w/ another 6 months of work.
Hahah WRONG! This is WRONG in SO MANY senses it's annoying. CO didn't have ANYTHING at launch. NOTHING. The levelling was tedious. Compare that to a fully fleshed out city with actual stuff to do. The PvP adds another thing to do. I played CoX at launch... it wasn't great either. It wasn't until they started doing all those cool little comic book #'d expansions that it was worth anything. But to ACTUALLY say that Champions "was in better shape w/ basic MMO functions and content" is a LIE. A bold faced lie. The only thing that was working in CO at launch was their Cryptic store so you could buy all the stuff you needed, buy your rebuild, etc.
If it isn't your cup of tea, fine. If you don't like it, fine. Just keep our discussion to the truths of a launch and we'll at least be having an HONEST discussion of the difficulties of launching ANY MMORPG. Are there issues? Yes, they are. Have the Dev's been working hard at exterminating bugs? Yes, they have but there are still some persistent issues. Does it diminish the overall value of the game? No, I don't believe they do. While some have bugs, I haven't encountered any during my beta play. Am I going to buy this game? Yes, I am. So my PoV is clearly that I SEE SOE fixing stuff so I know I won't atleast be dropped (like another game we've all recently been fooled by *cough* FFXIV *cough*).
Please don't tell me the grass is orange when I clearly know that it's green.
I also think rolling on a pvp server will increase longevity. Open pvp seems like it would be a blast. Only had a small taste of it on the pve server (after you finish a pvp instance you would be flagged still) due to a bug but the couple fights i had were fun even if i lost.
I am not completely sure, if something World of Warcraft has shown is that open pvp is a nice idea but that has many drawbacks like gankers and griefers. No wonder they change from a open pvp centric to a instanced(arenas, battlegrounds). I think Eve got a better system with police and other stuff to control the pvp.
Normally i'd agree but with such a massive open world and travel powers combined with ease of leveling to cap and a skill based combat system i think you will see less griefing/camping and more actually fighting. A good player can take down 2-3 bad players in DCUO (wish i was that good lol).
I plan to roll on both pvp and pve servers. Its easy enough to level even casuals can.
thats the beauty of action gameplay. the players actually matter very much.
not simply how much time you been grinding determining the outcome.
action based PVP and RPG PVP (with no action elements) are WORLDS APART from each other (even when there IS some RPG influence). it changes everything.
that said, i haven't played DCUO yet, so I hope what most people are saying about its action elements matches what I am expecting.
And Fallen Earth was suppose to have 5 additional zones and a level 200 cap by now. Never believe the "We're going to release x every y" nonsense.
You can't even come close to hoping to stay ahead of your playbase in that fashion, and you just end up getting behind and releasing crap content. In the 10 years I've been playing these game's I've never once seen it happen. It's a bullshit marketing ploy to get you to buy into a content light game.
Going to have to agree with this.
If people have played enough MMOs and were honest, they'd fess up that there is always the "we are adding new things.. just wait and see!"
Warhammer Online is extremely famous for it's "We have so many new things planned, we are dying to tell you about them.. but can't right now, so stay tuned!" It's like a running joke. People resub because they have hope in the game, promises are broken but because they love the game they have short term memory about what was promised. This goes on in the gaming industry all the time.
I'm not saying that DCUO is doing/saying that specifically by saying they are "holding back tons of endgame content", but we do have to realize this is a game that is in SOE's stables, and they don't exactly have a reputation for living up to adding more content or keeping promises. They are basically a MMO mill.
They are also known for promising customers many things just to keep the income coming which is why so many "I hate SOE!" posts have been written over the years.
DCUO has the chance to rewrite SOE's image and who knows.. perhaps this is one instance where they are actually telling the truth about more stuff being left out than put in.
But history isn't on SOE's side nor the gaming industry at this point.
EDIT: I was thinking of Rift as well recently with their claims that their mmo is going to be a "ready to go out of the box" mmo complete at launch with everything in it. But things I've read about the game(soul system problems, lag, two zones, tiny world, etc) say they are nowhere near complete at launch. So it's definitely an industry problme.
And Fallen Earth was suppose to have 5 additional zones and a level 200 cap by now.
Never believe the "We're going to release x every y" nonsense.
You can't even come close to hoping to stay ahead of your playbase in that fashion, and you just end up getting behind and releasing crap content. In the 10 years I've been playing these game's I've never once seen it happen. It's a bullshit marketing ploy to get you to buy into a content light game.
Going to have to agree with this.
If people have played enough MMOs and were honest, they'd fess up that there is always the "we are adding new things.. just wait and see!"
Warhammer Online is extremely famous for it's "We have so many new things planned, we are dying to tell you about them.. but can't right now, so stay tuned!" It's like a running joke. People resub because they have hope in the game, promises are broken but because they love the game they have short term memory about what was promised. This goes on in the gaming industry all the time.
I'm not saying that DCUO is doing/saying that specifically by saying they are "holding back tons of endgame content", but we do have to realize this is a game that is in SOE's stables, and they don't exactly have a reputation for living up to adding more content or keeping promises. They are basically a MMO mill.
They are also known for promising customers many things just to keep the income coming which is why so many "I hate SOE!" posts have been written over the years.
DCUO has the chance to rewrite SOE's image and who knows.. perhaps this is one instance where they are actually telling the truth about more stuff being left out than put in.
But history isn't on SOE's side nor the gaming industry at this point.
EDIT: I was thinking of Rift as well recently with their claims that their mmo is going to be a "ready to go out of the box" mmo complete at launch with everything in it. But things I've read about the game(soul system problems, lag, two zones, tiny world, etc) say they are nowhere near complete at launch. So it's definitely an industry problme.
Yes Fallen Earth was a flat out lie, and still is, they are just not getting to possibly releasing small chuncks of s4 a year later. Ohter games also. SWG with all the great changes that never happened. Vangaurd with no xpac in 3 years. Lotro with the promise of 3 free quartly updates a year and a paid xpac. I could go on an on. Nowday when I hear a company say were going to do x,y,z I will beleive x,y,z when I actually see it.
Comments
NDA was lifted, last I heard.
Good writeup! Mostly agree, though I'm less enthusiastic in the areas you considered strong.
I didn't have much time to play, so I can't give much more than a first impression, but it seems to me like it's the game that CO was hoping to be: Fast paced, with much more free movement than most. It moves more in the stooge/boss direction, where you can rip into 4-5 mobs at once, with occasional bosses that are more challenging; this is what the superhero genre is all about. Animations are quite good, as well. I liked the abundance of breakables and throwables around. What few travel powers there are feel pretty good. The game also performs pretty well, for a beta with debug on full. Speaking of...
Some significant bugs. I crashed a few times in just a short amount of play. Tried messing with gfx options which instantly locked the game. Defeated mobs got stuck halfway through their death animations. Superman spent most of his time walking around doing nothing during the boss battle. All these things can be fixed, though, and I suspect they will be.
As far as spending 15 bucks a month on it... I probably won't. The power system is just too limiting for me to get into my character. And the rest of it just takes casual to a level that even my LotRO loving self can't get much out of.
I'll probably keep playing here and there, and submitting tha' buggities. It IS fun, I just can't see it staying that way, month after month... And my reasons for that is in its design; it has nothing to do with its beta status.
I'm not enjoying this game much at all. Powersets and character creation are poor compared to Champions Online. Targeting system is poor, you have to lock to be effective and when using a controller 'who' you will lock onto is questionable. Even a small lag spike can mess up a combo you are trying to do. I know these issues may improve over time and that it's a beta.
You do almost exactly the same thing as in APB, and that failed badly. Hub, mission, mission, hub, ignore most over players cos communication is shockingly bad. It'll do well because of the brand name but other than that it feels like playing an average console third person action game. I'm thankful I wasn't expecting anything from this game.
The only thing I think it has done right is introduce a decent loot system to a hero MMO.. but this game is far from an RPG. I'm not sure whether it claimed to be an rpg or not, but it isn't. Its marvel ultimate alliance 2 online really, with standard MMO quests/missions (grind in other words, but hidden better than most MMO's due to the action).
Or MUA's DC counterpart, whose name escapes me.
I got a bit of that impression, too. And that's why I have a hard time imagining paying month to month. I enjoyed the MUA games too, but, well... I stopped playing them. I don't think persistent MP or end-game raiding for uber lootz would have kept me playing. And for the record I have no idea what the "end game" is for DCUO, so any of my assumptions here on what it is could be false.
Having played around with DCUO for a few days now I can see the game doing well at launch due to the franchise and the core gameplay being fun but losing players rapidly before the first month of free playtime expires due to a seemly lack of content. Out of the games 30 levels you can easly hit 20 just by following the mission hubs in 2-3 days and unless SOE plan on really slowing down leveling speed after that with hundreds of low xp missions I fail to see how SOE plan on keeping customers paying.
Giving SOE a pass for the moment on the current woeful state of some elements of the game by having a better UI and character creator in the game at launch, the current content feels like a F2P model with the money being made via charged content packs.
That is the problem with most MMO players, is that they feel that once you reach max level that the game is over with and the end game is supposed to kick in and have you grind for loot all day to stay entertaining.
DCUO isn't focusing on the leveling process because levels mean much less in this game then other games. The content can easily get you from 1 to 20 in a few days time and you'd still have tons of quests that you haven't done.
In DCUO progression doesn't STOP because you're capped, progression STOPs when you stop going through the entirety of the content. What DCUO does WRONG is that they don't present the total progression package properly. Powers are only a very small part of character progression, skills, to me, are much more important. You can gain skill points through feats, and feats aren't marketed and found easily enough for the new player to grasp them.
At level 20, I have 45 skill points. I've been playing for over a month and I'm still progressing and working hard at doing alerts in under 20 minutes, PvPing in legends and in the open world, exploring, investigating. In a over a months worth of time being stuck capped at 9 for about 3 weeks and then capped again at 20 now, I've never run out of ways to progress my character visually or stat wise. I won't lie, in PvP and raid groups the extra skill points make a immense difference. I can't remember the last time I've lost an open world PvP match with my main character without the other side using an exploit. (though since the patch where all exploits have been fixed, I don't have that problem anymore)
Currently the game has a lot of content, but people often complain it doesn't have enough, which bothers me some. What content are they missing? Each mentors missions coupled with the starter alerts and wanted posters are enough to level to the current cap easily, though maybe they just can't find the right content? I really don't know. On the one hand more content isn't a bad thing, on the other over saturation of content can be a very bad thing if you want characters to progress through the world and level you don't want too many quests in one area. They already have 3 different areas to level for a single level range.
If you go back to my review of CO when they dropped their NDA http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/247702/A-Beta-Review-for-New-Players-Warning-Long.html you'll see that I was pretty spot on with most of what we saw in beta and what they did on launch. There were glaring potholes in content. You don't have that here.
Lastly, as for combat, the combat is what I feel will keep many players coming back. As stated, a level 6 can kill a level 15. A level 10 can take on a level 20 and win. The competitive nature of this system will have a pretty strong following and appeal to PC and console gamers alike. One thing CO did terribly that they couldn't fix was being set in the way their combat mechanics worked. That was possibly the biggest let down for me in that game. Here SOE built this game on a strong combat foundation. Content and new power sets can be added (and is planned to be added) monthly. The core of their mechanics is what will shine through in the end and what the other two games in this sub genre can't change.
Not sure what people are refering as not much content, what I have seen is that the content is structure so similar that there is no much replayability value as it could have. In fact the game has a lot of content for 1 character but the missions should be a bit different in structure. In CO(provided you have followed this game a bit) the first adventure pack(Serpent Lantern) was criticized because the bunker's syndrome, the starter missions consisted of conquering 3 bunkers, while they make the maps and objective and final bosses different the pattern of the bunkers were so similar that people complained, for the second one(Demonflame) they change the structure so the missions does not feel from the same blueprint.
Everything you are saying about the combat could be a double edge sword for the game. Traditionally, mmos have been under the rule of performance is mostly based on progression (levels,gear, etc), letting skill decide the last mile of the combat. By giving skill such effect on the performance it might push away, more casual and less consolish style gamers.
I haven't seen DCUO endgame so I won't say anything before having more information.
Three major points about this that I think needs to be made.
1) We have not seen anywhere near all of the content, something that was verified by the devs on the beta boards. You've spent a few days playing in beta and seem to think you have seen it all. You haven't.
2) The reason there are only 30 levels is because they want us to get to the end-game quickly, instead of having a long grind to get there. They said this long ago. Getting to 30 is supposed to be fairly easy. It is a completely different approach than what other MMORPG's do. I read one interview that approximately 50% of the game content at release will be specifically for end-game play and you are currently locked at level 20. There is a lot you have not seen.
3) They have promised monthly content updates.
Do any MMO's succeed simply by slowing down leveling? Slowing down leveling makes reaching the endgame take longer,. Slowing down leveling would actually mean more content would be needed, not less. Besides, it's not leveling that keeps people playing MMORPG's, it's a stong endgame that keeps people playing long-term. We have not seen any of that content yet, so it makes no sense to speculate. They also have not mentioned anything at all about "charged content packs". That is something that you made up.
1) I never once claimed I had seen all the content in the game only that i was going through what was there very fast and much quicker than any other MMO Iv played.
2) Getting to the end game in any MMO can always be done quickly and even if 50% of the content is for end game that still dosen't seem like enough to keep people paying a subscription month after month.
3) The Dev team can say what they like but until a feature, content update or bug fix is in the live game its only talk. MMO designers in the past have promised the sun, moon and stars and failed to deliver and SOE have been amoungst the worst of the culprits.
Most MMO's slow down players in some form or another to to get you to continue subscribing by making leveling up slower towards the end of the level cap or having a cap on the amount of faction you can gain in a day/week. A strong end game is indeed important but so to is having enough content for making alt characters these days and DCUO fails bigtime on this as every character you make will do the exact same content as the first time you play though the game apart from the starter mentor mission.
I never claimed the Devs said there would be charged content packs only that makes sense considering the current low content model the game currently has not to mention there is a C-Store option in the menu which gives the impression there will be an extra charge for certain content be it fluff items or otherwise.
You are arguing semantics.
1) I didn't claim that you claimed that you had seen all the content. You stated that you felt the game lacked enough content to warrant a monthly fee. i simply stated that you have not seen enough of the content to accurately judge. You can't possibly speculate on endgame content, or the fun value of it, when you haven't seen it.
2) Getting to the end game is not quick, which you already know because you pointed out that other MMO's deliberately slow it down. With DCUO they wanted to do the exact opposite. Yes, certain people can power level/grind quickly to the highest level, but neither one of us were talking about those people. DCUO is designed for the average gamer to be able to get to the level cap in a relatively short period of time. They want you to spend most of your time at the end game content. That was their goal. You have not seen any of it, so you can't even speculate on it.
3) They have promised monthly updates. With 50% end game content at release and monthly updates, that should keep people paying monthly fees, just like any other MMO. You can argue that it's all talk and meaningless, but so is what you are saying. You are stating that you don't think there will be enough content for a monthly fee even though you haven't seen the content from level 20-30 or any of the endgame content. It also requires that they not even come close to monthly updates that they promised. In other words, based on nothing. The thing is, if the content is not good enough to warrant a long-term monthly fee, who cares? You cancel your membership and move on to something else. Your prediction of doom and gllom is based on what you haven't seen/experienced yet, and assumptions that they will fail to live up to their promises. I don't see the point.
You claimed not to have said there would be a charge for content packs, but if not directly said, definitely implied. **"the current content feels like a F2P model with the money being made via charged content packs"**.
My point is that you are claiming that it will not be worth a monthly fee based on absolutely nothing concrete. People don't pay monthly fees for years because of the low level content, they play because of what they can do at the endgame. When we see that, we can judge better. until then, it's not even speculation.
I will agree with you about replay ability for alt-aholics. Having 9 characters in beta, I have been one of the more outspoken people for more low level content for replay variety.
Being a mmorpg vet, and being in both the PC and PS3 beta... I have to say that while the PS3 graphics resolution is not as good as the PC version obviously, the control scheme and overall feel of the PS3 version is much better IMO. I was playing the PC version for quite a while, got into the PS3 beta, and haven't really touched the PC version since.
My only real gripe with the game at this point is that the social and chat system is terrible (speaking of the PC version here). Quite honestly, I am unsure of even really how to use it correctly. I hope they get this in order because it makes a very well put together game seem much more flawed than it actually is.
And Fallen Earth was suppose to have 5 additional zones and a level 200 cap by now.
Never believe the "We're going to release x every y" nonsense. You can't even come close to hoping to stay ahead of your playbase in that fashion, and you just end up getting behind and releasing crap content. In the 10 years I've been playing these game's I've never once seen it happen. It's a bullshit marketing ploy to get you to buy into a content light game.
Cryptic is finally getting to the point where they are keeping their promises on their monthly stuff, but it tooks over a year of just fixing basic stuff and making the game launchworthy before they could dedicate those resources. And in all honesty, Champions was in better shape w/ basic MMO functions and content than DCUO could hope to be w/ another 6 months of work.
They will spend the first year scrambling to fix bugs and add to the pitiful customization options so they are atleast remotely on par w/ other superhero MMOs. Then they will scramble to add some basic leveling content because people will be pissed on their 2-3 playthrough.... and then they will scramble to add some sort of PvE endgame for all the people that have shit else to do at level cap.... then they will scramble to fix all the PvP failure that inevitably happens in every new MMO, and then they'll be scrambling to add more powersets/abilties/mentors/etc... and FINALLY, if your lucky, they'll have the time to start adding monthly content patches that will at most take 1-2 days to complete.
Not that DCUO is hopeless. It's fun to play, the world itself is great, and the missions/voiceacting etc is really good. But alot of the basic functionality and refinement is really poor. Suprisingly poor in fact, considering SoE isn't exactly a company that doesn't have experience w/ MMO UIs/Chat/etc.
Hahah WRONG! This is WRONG in SO MANY senses it's annoying. CO didn't have ANYTHING at launch. NOTHING. The levelling was tedious. Compare that to a fully fleshed out city with actual stuff to do. The PvP adds another thing to do. I played CoX at launch... it wasn't great either. It wasn't until they started doing all those cool little comic book #'d expansions that it was worth anything. But to ACTUALLY say that Champions "was in better shape w/ basic MMO functions and content" is a LIE. A bold faced lie. The only thing that was working in CO at launch was their Cryptic store so you could buy all the stuff you needed, buy your rebuild, etc.
If it isn't your cup of tea, fine. If you don't like it, fine. Just keep our discussion to the truths of a launch and we'll at least be having an HONEST discussion of the difficulties of launching ANY MMORPG. Are there issues? Yes, they are. Have the Dev's been working hard at exterminating bugs? Yes, they have but there are still some persistent issues. Does it diminish the overall value of the game? No, I don't believe they do. While some have bugs, I haven't encountered any during my beta play. Am I going to buy this game? Yes, I am. So my PoV is clearly that I SEE SOE fixing stuff so I know I won't atleast be dropped (like another game we've all recently been fooled by *cough* FFXIV *cough*).
Please don't tell me the grass is orange when I clearly know that it's green.
thats the beauty of action gameplay. the players actually matter very much.
not simply how much time you been grinding determining the outcome.
action based PVP and RPG PVP (with no action elements) are WORLDS APART from each other (even when there IS some RPG influence). it changes everything.
that said, i haven't played DCUO yet, so I hope what most people are saying about its action elements matches what I am expecting.
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Corpus Callosum
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Going to have to agree with this.
If people have played enough MMOs and were honest, they'd fess up that there is always the "we are adding new things.. just wait and see!"
Warhammer Online is extremely famous for it's "We have so many new things planned, we are dying to tell you about them.. but can't right now, so stay tuned!" It's like a running joke. People resub because they have hope in the game, promises are broken but because they love the game they have short term memory about what was promised. This goes on in the gaming industry all the time.
I'm not saying that DCUO is doing/saying that specifically by saying they are "holding back tons of endgame content", but we do have to realize this is a game that is in SOE's stables, and they don't exactly have a reputation for living up to adding more content or keeping promises. They are basically a MMO mill.
They are also known for promising customers many things just to keep the income coming which is why so many "I hate SOE!" posts have been written over the years.
DCUO has the chance to rewrite SOE's image and who knows.. perhaps this is one instance where they are actually telling the truth about more stuff being left out than put in.
But history isn't on SOE's side nor the gaming industry at this point.
EDIT: I was thinking of Rift as well recently with their claims that their mmo is going to be a "ready to go out of the box" mmo complete at launch with everything in it. But things I've read about the game(soul system problems, lag, two zones, tiny world, etc) say they are nowhere near complete at launch. So it's definitely an industry problme.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Yes Fallen Earth was a flat out lie, and still is, they are just not getting to possibly releasing small chuncks of s4 a year later. Ohter games also. SWG with all the great changes that never happened. Vangaurd with no xpac in 3 years. Lotro with the promise of 3 free quartly updates a year and a paid xpac. I could go on an on. Nowday when I hear a company say were going to do x,y,z I will beleive x,y,z when I actually see it.