I'd say Everquest online adventures: Frontiers for the PS2 back in 2003, to this day it's the hardest on the market... I remember being a noobie level and having to actually group at level 7 to get anything done. They did not point you to the quest npcs they simply told you to go someone in a certain zone acrossed the map and talk to some random guy even then I remember actually fearing death having to ninja through mobs level 40+ to get through some of these locations... not to mention that hell hole notoriously named "The Hunt."
I think "dumbed down" is more of a comparative phrase than a general one. In other words, game B has to be dumbed down as compared to game A. I don't think you can generally say a game is "dumbed down" without something to compare it to. The problem is that most people make this comparison implicitly, and don't state where there frame of reference is leading to many forum arguments and hijinks.
That said, I think that the Starcraft games are some of the most deep and intelligent games in existence. The fact that SC1 has been out for over a decade now and people are STILL finding new strategies is a testament to its depth.
As for MMO's...let's use Everquest (1) as our baseline for comparison. One could argue that WoW is dumbed down in respect to difficulty from EQ, but I would argue that WoW's range of abilities and character customizations actually make EQ look dumbed down. After all, in EQ all a warrior could do was attack! WoW has several abilities for each class and talent trees that allow you to customize further.
Another argument I think you could make is that most MMORPGs are dumbed down over time as compared to themselves at release. EQ for example was MUCH more difficult at release than it was after the PoP expansion. It is fairly typical for developers to try to draw in new players by making their game more accessible (instant travel, faster leveling etc.). Many people interpret this accessibility as "dumbing down."
MMO wise I'd say Eve. But that's based on perspective. eve can be deep or shallow depending on play style.
I've quit EVE multiple times because I got fed up with how parts of the game were 'dumbed down' to appease the PvPers.
I quit cause that first month was killer boring lol
I would argue that even if you don't think Eve is dumbed down now, it will be very soon. They have already annouced that they are scraping the skills system because it is too difficuly for new players.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Now, everyone will cry 'Not an MMO dude'. But that is kind of my point. Look at that book and ask yourself, do I wanna work that hard at a video game?
while I personally enjoy Falcon, most people will answer 'Hell No, I already have a job!"
Mmmm Game manuals.
When was the last time you bought a game that had a manual that wouldnt fly away in a stiff breeze? Could slide across a table under the power of an electric fan? If you were stuck in the forest could use as toilet paper for over a week?
We dont get manuals anymore, we get brochures. I am dissapoint.
MMO wise I'd say Eve. But that's based on perspective. eve can be deep or shallow depending on play style.
I've quit EVE multiple times because I got fed up with how parts of the game were 'dumbed down' to appease the PvPers.
I quit cause that first month was killer boring lol
I would argue that even if you don't think Eve is dumbed down now, it will be very soon. They have already annouced that they are scaping the skills system because it is too difficuly for new players.
No they haven't. You're making shit up.
In my experience, people get from EVE exactly what they bring to it. Those who play it safe, take no risks and only do the easy, mapped out content will find it dull, boring and unchallenging, oddly enough.
Another argument I think you could make is that most MMORPGs are dumbed down over time as compared to themselves at release. EQ for example was MUCH more difficult at release than it was after the PoP expansion. It is fairly typical for developers to try to draw in new players by making their game more accessible (instant travel, faster leveling etc.). Many people interpret this accessibility as "dumbing down."
I definately have to agree with this. My current game is City of Heroes and it was much harder to play, especially at lower levels, last month than it is today with the new mini-expansion they just released. Going beyonf that though they added several features over the years that have made min/max-ing your toon so easy. Even when they added "Enhancement Diversification" I would argue it dod not make the game harder, but easier since it basically required you to slot for the secondary effects of your powers instead of just the primary ones. On top of all that was the "Invention Origin Enhancement Sets" which add additions benefits to your character based on how many of these "Enhancements" are placed on each power. Some might argue planning this out makes the game harder, but the overall affect is to make the game too easy (IMHO) and really it does not need to be planned out at all.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Not an MMORPG, more a 4X game. I have been gaming for over 20 years.. back to the days of Wizardry and the Infocom games like Zork on my apple ][e. This game from a few years ago has the deepest game play I have ever seen with an absolutely brutal Mount Everest type of learning curve. Manual is about 400 pages of small print. Rewarding though. Decent AI, but really shines in multiplayer. Can't think of any other game where you have to plan your whole strategy before you even start the game.
Really rewarding when you put the time in, but you will be completely lost, with absolutely no tutorial for the first 10-15 hours. There are over a 1000 unique spells, with 10 schools of magic, some like Blood Magic operating completely differently from all others. You have to design your god(pretender) and your side's benefits before you take turn 1, meaning, you have to understand all the subtle nuances of different magic, summons, scales, and other benefits which vary during early, middle and late game. Not to mention the many different ways of winning, including dominion (similar to influence in Civ games). You control battles via a macro system where you pre-set first 5 moves for individual units and/or unique commanders, including casting any of hundreds of different battle spells, set you cavalry to move down a side for flank charge, etc.
In short, sick difficulty, deep thinking, but only fun if you are a masochist, old-school gamer like me.
Edit. For what it's worth, I played Falcon 4.0 back when it first came out. Liked it. Liked F-19 which I believe came out shortly before. Difficulty curve was not even close to Dominions.
MMO wise I'd say Eve. But that's based on perspective. eve can be deep or shallow depending on play style.
I've quit EVE multiple times because I got fed up with how parts of the game were 'dumbed down' to appease the PvPers.
I quit cause that first month was killer boring lol
I would argue that even if you don't think Eve is dumbed down now, it will be very soon. They have already annouced that they are scaping the skills system because it is too difficuly for new players.
No they haven't. You're making shit up.
In my experience, people get from EVE exactly what they bring to it. Those who play it safe, take no risks and only do the easy, mapped out content will find it dull, boring and unchallenging, oddly enough.
They are the ones that announced it, not me. Argue it any way you want, THEY have decided to "dumb it down".
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
MMO wise I'd say Eve. But that's based on perspective. eve can be deep or shallow depending on play style.
I've quit EVE multiple times because I got fed up with how parts of the game were 'dumbed down' to appease the PvPers.
I quit cause that first month was killer boring lol
I would argue that even if you don't think Eve is dumbed down now, it will be very soon. They have already annouced that they are scaping the skills system because it is too difficuly for new players.
No they haven't. You're making shit up.
In my experience, people get from EVE exactly what they bring to it. Those who play it safe, take no risks and only do the easy, mapped out content will find it dull, boring and unchallenging, oddly enough.
They are the ones that announced it, not me. Argue it any way you want, THEY have decided to "dumb it down".
MMO wise I'd say Eve. But that's based on perspective. eve can be deep or shallow depending on play style.
I've quit EVE multiple times because I got fed up with how parts of the game were 'dumbed down' to appease the PvPers.
I quit cause that first month was killer boring lol
I would argue that even if you don't think Eve is dumbed down now, it will be very soon. They have already annouced that they are scaping the skills system because it is too difficuly for new players.
No they haven't. You're making shit up.
In my experience, people get from EVE exactly what they bring to it. Those who play it safe, take no risks and only do the easy, mapped out content will find it dull, boring and unchallenging, oddly enough.
They are the ones that announced it, not me. Argue it any way you want, THEY have decided to "dumb it down".
And my statement is validated.
LOL! Its the LEARNING skills they are removing. As in, the skills that don't have any effect on anything other than learning speed.
Now, everyone will cry 'Not an MMO dude'. But that is kind of my point. Look at that book and ask yourself, do I wanna work that hard at a video game?
while I personally enjoy Falcon, most people will answer 'Hell No, I already have a job!"
Mmmm Game manuals.
When was the last time you bought a game that had a manual that wouldnt fly away in a stiff breeze? Could slide across a table under the power of an electric fan? If you were stuck in the forest could use as toilet paper for over a week?
We dont get manuals anymore, we get brochures. I am dissapoint.
I agree completely. God I used to love the big manuals. I would go to bed and pull out a manual to read for a game I was playing and just imagine all the possibilities. I think that time is gone.
I posted this as a question to someone on another post, but I think the question is strong enough to deserve it's own thread.
what game represents the pinnacle of what you think a "deep" or "intelligent" game to be?
I hear the term 'dumbed down' thrown around quite a bit on this forum, so I want to get a better grip on what qualifies as a game that isn't "dumbed down."
Don't confine yourself to just MMORPGs. Any title from any genre from any era of video gaming. And please stick to specific games and not your personal criteria that has not been attempted in, or is completely absent from, Video gaming.
Not dumbed down.
There are a few games that come to mind
Single player: Ultima Underworld
This game was very deep for it's time. You had the usual character progression for RPG but the level design, Artificial intelligence, and puzzles within the game made you as a player really think and feel dread at certain times.
MMORPG: Everquest
There were many deep faction trees, very deep questing with sometimes very little help at all, Dungeons that were very deep and some requiring collection of materials within a part of the dungeon to craft weapons that would effect the boss. Everything about Everquest was/is deep. Even the endgame once you reach your level CAP, you still have tons of "levels" of advancement in AA's (Alternate Advancements) that allow alot more customization.
single player platformer: Mario Brothers Wii
This game seems dumbed down and simple at first look. As you log in and play thru the first few worlds the level of difficulty ramps up alot until you are literally using every ounce of concentration to squeeze thru the last 3 worlds.
Multi Player FPS: Battlefield 1942
Filled with very interesting maps and modes and your abilities as a player and certain rolls really mattered as well as your knowledge of the maps and the vehicles. Nothing quite like riding in a turret on top of a tank firing the mounted gun while the main part is being steered by another player who is manning the main gun. Or having a dog fight with another pilot and getting to close to AA gunners on a ship and having to bale out and pop your shoot while your plane goes down and try to land on the ship with your parachute and take on the guys on the ship. Lots and lots of replay and fun with this title.
Single Player FPS: Halflife 2
The weapons, vehicles, environments, learning curve, a.i., everything about this title is about deep and not dumbed down.
Now, everyone will cry 'Not an MMO dude'. But that is kind of my point. Look at that book and ask yourself, do I wanna work that hard at a video game?
while I personally enjoy Falcon, most people will answer 'Hell No, I already have a job!"
Mmmm Game manuals.
When was the last time you bought a game that had a manual that wouldnt fly away in a stiff breeze? Could slide across a table under the power of an electric fan? If you were stuck in the forest could use as toilet paper for over a week?
We dont get manuals anymore, we get brochures. I am dissapoint.
I agree completely. God I used to love the big manuals. I would go to bed and pull out a manual to read for a game I was playing and just imagine all the possibilities. I think that time is gone.
It is sad to think so, but most 'Flight Sims' now can be played with an xbox controller. Nothing much these days NEED a manual...its pretty shallow and easy to pick up.
As an example of how pathetic gameplay has gotten, my 3yr old son picked up FFXIII and played it, without any instruction, for over 30 minutes...and didn't die......and I still have to wipe his butt after he poops!
He could have played longer, but he got bored hahahahah!
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
This game made Falcon 4.0 look like Super Mario Bros by comparison. Every dial, guage, switch, button, rotery knob and display screen that was on the real shuttle was in this game. If you hit any one but the right one at any given time.... BOOM!!! You just reanacted the Challenger Disaster. The quick referance sheet was a 3' by 4' poster that told you where all of the controls were. You had to almost actually be a NASA Astronaut to play this game. This game still sits on my shelf above my computer as a reminder that sometimes there is such a thing as too much realism.
EU3 and Vicky2 are awesomely complex, and I love it Those games, you're better off watching tutorial videos on youtube to learn how to play, along with reading some AARs on Paradox forums.
Originally posted by popsideath
Civ5 was dumbed down compared to Civ4
Wait until Civ5 gets 2-3 expansion packs to complexify the rules along with some deep mods.
Black Shark is hard core. I have been looking for a helicopter sim since Longbow 2 and finally found it.
I found the Europa Univesralis games fairly basic compared to some games but they are certainly not dumbed down at all.
It does seem like one of two things happen in games. . either they get too complex (feature creep) and lose the appeal of the spiritual predecessors or they become to homogenized to attract a greater audience.
Lineage II is still an epic grind fest. Many of the korean grinders have never been dumbed down and still play like a full time job. Thousand+ hour grinds FTL.
Eve Online is pretty much the poster child of depth in an MMO.
However, I always thought thta City of Heroes/Villains wasn't given enough credit. Though it doesn't have the complexity that you find in EvE, the absurdly large combination of powers and enhancements you can put together make it a really amazing game to just play. That doesn't even consider the fantastic character creation or its massive, massive pool of content available to players.
It's an easy game to pick up and play, but just like EvE, there's a tremendous amount of depth there if you look.
Now, everyone will cry 'Not an MMO dude'. But that is kind of my point. Look at that book and ask yourself, do I wanna work that hard at a video game?
while I personally enjoy Falcon, most people will answer 'Hell No, I already have a job!"
Mmmm Game manuals.
When was the last time you bought a game that had a manual that wouldnt fly away in a stiff breeze? Could slide across a table under the power of an electric fan? If you were stuck in the forest could use as toilet paper for over a week?
We dont get manuals anymore, we get brochures. I am dissapoint.
I agree completely. God I used to love the big manuals. I would go to bed and pull out a manual to read for a game I was playing and just imagine all the possibilities. I think that time is gone.
It is sad to think so, but most 'Flight Sims' now can be played with an xbox controller. Nothing much these days NEED a manual...its pretty shallow and easy to pick up.
As an example of how pathetic gameplay has gotten, my 3yr old son picked up FFXIII and played it, without any instruction, for over 30 minutes...and didn't die......and I still have to wipe his butt after he poops!
He could have played longer, but he got bored hahahahah!
Now that is just funny and terribley sad all in one. Ahh the good old days.
EVE comes to mind for me, still a well thought out and in -depth MMORPG. Probably DF, never played it though, but it sounds like it follows the old school designs more than most.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I posted this as a question to someone on another post, but I think the question is strong enough to deserve it's own thread.
what game represents the pinnacle of what you think a "deep" or "intelligent" game to be?
I hear the term 'dumbed down' thrown around quite a bit on this forum, so I want to get a better grip on what qualifies as a game that isn't "dumbed down."
Don't confine yourself to just MMORPGs. Any title from any genre from any era of video gaming. And please stick to specific games and not your personal criteria that has not been attempted in, or is completely absent from, Video gaming.
There is a long list, a game is dumbed down when it gets annoyingly user friendly, like Windows Vista.... In MMOs is it when you get a quest and gets told everything that is going to happen, gets pointed down the way and they make it so simple that a chimp can do it.
Take Guitar hero, it were based on a game that learned people how to actually play a real guitar. Someone saw it and decided that a dumbed down version would sell great. It is fun at an afterparty but dumbed down games can be fun.
A not dumbed down game have very little or no tutorial and is hard, like Diablo. Mess up and you lose. That doesn't mean they can't be simple but they are never easy. Tetris is a good example, really simple but gets very hard after a while, act fast or lose.
It is sad to think so, but most 'Flight Sims' now can be played with an xbox controller. Nothing much these days NEED a manual...its pretty shallow and easy to pick up.
On the other hand was Microsofts first "Flightsimulator*" a bit buggy, you couldn't land and while we all blamed ourselves the story got out a few years ago that it was impossible. While I like flight sims myself (particularly WW1) I rather have an X-box controller than that.
Comments
in non mmo terms i'd say the total war series with maybe the exception of the latest offering
in mmo terms other than eve, darkfall and mo seem about the best(hey you didn't say playability had to be a factor
)
I'd say Everquest online adventures: Frontiers for the PS2 back in 2003, to this day it's the hardest on the market... I remember being a noobie level and having to actually group at level 7 to get anything done. They did not point you to the quest npcs they simply told you to go someone in a certain zone acrossed the map and talk to some random guy even then I remember actually fearing death having to ninja through mobs level 40+ to get through some of these locations... not to mention that hell hole notoriously named "The Hunt."
I think "dumbed down" is more of a comparative phrase than a general one. In other words, game B has to be dumbed down as compared to game A. I don't think you can generally say a game is "dumbed down" without something to compare it to. The problem is that most people make this comparison implicitly, and don't state where there frame of reference is leading to many forum arguments and hijinks.
That said, I think that the Starcraft games are some of the most deep and intelligent games in existence. The fact that SC1 has been out for over a decade now and people are STILL finding new strategies is a testament to its depth.
As for MMO's...let's use Everquest (1) as our baseline for comparison. One could argue that WoW is dumbed down in respect to difficulty from EQ, but I would argue that WoW's range of abilities and character customizations actually make EQ look dumbed down. After all, in EQ all a warrior could do was attack! WoW has several abilities for each class and talent trees that allow you to customize further.
Another argument I think you could make is that most MMORPGs are dumbed down over time as compared to themselves at release. EQ for example was MUCH more difficult at release than it was after the PoP expansion. It is fairly typical for developers to try to draw in new players by making their game more accessible (instant travel, faster leveling etc.). Many people interpret this accessibility as "dumbing down."
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I would argue that even if you don't think Eve is dumbed down now, it will be very soon. They have already annouced that they are scraping the skills system because it is too difficuly for new players.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Mmmm Game manuals.
When was the last time you bought a game that had a manual that wouldnt fly away in a stiff breeze? Could slide across a table under the power of an electric fan? If you were stuck in the forest could use as toilet paper for over a week?
We dont get manuals anymore, we get brochures. I am dissapoint.
No they haven't. You're making shit up.
In my experience, people get from EVE exactly what they bring to it. Those who play it safe, take no risks and only do the easy, mapped out content will find it dull, boring and unchallenging, oddly enough.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I definately have to agree with this. My current game is City of Heroes and it was much harder to play, especially at lower levels, last month than it is today with the new mini-expansion they just released. Going beyonf that though they added several features over the years that have made min/max-ing your toon so easy. Even when they added "Enhancement Diversification" I would argue it dod not make the game harder, but easier since it basically required you to slot for the secondary effects of your powers instead of just the primary ones. On top of all that was the "Invention Origin Enhancement Sets" which add additions benefits to your character based on how many of these "Enhancements" are placed on each power. Some might argue planning this out makes the game harder, but the overall affect is to make the game too easy (IMHO) and really it does not need to be planned out at all.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
/thread
Dominions III.
Not an MMORPG, more a 4X game. I have been gaming for over 20 years.. back to the days of Wizardry and the Infocom games like Zork on my apple ][e. This game from a few years ago has the deepest game play I have ever seen with an absolutely brutal Mount Everest type of learning curve. Manual is about 400 pages of small print. Rewarding though. Decent AI, but really shines in multiplayer. Can't think of any other game where you have to plan your whole strategy before you even start the game.
Really rewarding when you put the time in, but you will be completely lost, with absolutely no tutorial for the first 10-15 hours. There are over a 1000 unique spells, with 10 schools of magic, some like Blood Magic operating completely differently from all others. You have to design your god(pretender) and your side's benefits before you take turn 1, meaning, you have to understand all the subtle nuances of different magic, summons, scales, and other benefits which vary during early, middle and late game. Not to mention the many different ways of winning, including dominion (similar to influence in Civ games). You control battles via a macro system where you pre-set first 5 moves for individual units and/or unique commanders, including casting any of hundreds of different battle spells, set you cavalry to move down a side for flank charge, etc.
In short, sick difficulty, deep thinking, but only fun if you are a masochist, old-school gamer like me.
Edit. For what it's worth, I played Falcon 4.0 back when it first came out. Liked it. Liked F-19 which I believe came out shortly before. Difficulty curve was not even close to Dominions.
They are the ones that announced it, not me. Argue it any way you want, THEY have decided to "dumb it down".
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
And my statement is validated.
LOL! Its the LEARNING skills they are removing. As in, the skills that don't have any effect on anything other than learning speed.
I'm sensing a reading comprehension failure.
Nothing has been or is being dumbed down.
I agree completely. God I used to love the big manuals. I would go to bed and pull out a manual to read for a game I was playing and just imagine all the possibilities. I think that time is gone.
Not dumbed down.
There are a few games that come to mind
Single player: Ultima Underworld
This game was very deep for it's time. You had the usual character progression for RPG but the level design, Artificial intelligence, and puzzles within the game made you as a player really think and feel dread at certain times.
MMORPG: Everquest
There were many deep faction trees, very deep questing with sometimes very little help at all, Dungeons that were very deep and some requiring collection of materials within a part of the dungeon to craft weapons that would effect the boss. Everything about Everquest was/is deep. Even the endgame once you reach your level CAP, you still have tons of "levels" of advancement in AA's (Alternate Advancements) that allow alot more customization.
single player platformer: Mario Brothers Wii
This game seems dumbed down and simple at first look. As you log in and play thru the first few worlds the level of difficulty ramps up alot until you are literally using every ounce of concentration to squeeze thru the last 3 worlds.
Multi Player FPS: Battlefield 1942
Filled with very interesting maps and modes and your abilities as a player and certain rolls really mattered as well as your knowledge of the maps and the vehicles. Nothing quite like riding in a turret on top of a tank firing the mounted gun while the main part is being steered by another player who is manning the main gun. Or having a dog fight with another pilot and getting to close to AA gunners on a ship and having to bale out and pop your shoot while your plane goes down and try to land on the ship with your parachute and take on the guys on the ship. Lots and lots of replay and fun with this title.
Single Player FPS: Halflife 2
The weapons, vehicles, environments, learning curve, a.i., everything about this title is about deep and not dumbed down.
It is sad to think so, but most 'Flight Sims' now can be played with an xbox controller. Nothing much these days NEED a manual...its pretty shallow and easy to pick up.
As an example of how pathetic gameplay has gotten, my 3yr old son picked up FFXIII and played it, without any instruction, for over 30 minutes...and didn't die......and I still have to wipe his butt after he poops!
He could have played longer, but he got bored hahahahah!
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
Shuttle by Virgin Interactive.
This game made Falcon 4.0 look like Super Mario Bros by comparison. Every dial, guage, switch, button, rotery knob and display screen that was on the real shuttle was in this game. If you hit any one but the right one at any given time.... BOOM!!! You just reanacted the Challenger Disaster. The quick referance sheet was a 3' by 4' poster that told you where all of the controls were. You had to almost actually be a NASA Astronaut to play this game. This game still sits on my shelf above my computer as a reminder that sometimes there is such a thing as too much realism.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
EU3 and Vicky2 are awesomely complex, and I love it
Those games, you're better off watching tutorial videos on youtube to learn how to play, along with reading some AARs on Paradox forums.
Wait until Civ5 gets 2-3 expansion packs to complexify the rules along with some deep mods.
Black Shark is hard core. I have been looking for a helicopter sim since Longbow 2 and finally found it.
I found the Europa Univesralis games fairly basic compared to some games but they are certainly not dumbed down at all.
It does seem like one of two things happen in games. . either they get too complex (feature creep) and lose the appeal of the spiritual predecessors or they become to homogenized to attract a greater audience.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Lineage II is still an epic grind fest. Many of the korean grinders have never been dumbed down and still play like a full time job. Thousand+ hour grinds FTL.
Eve Online is pretty much the poster child of depth in an MMO.
However, I always thought thta City of Heroes/Villains wasn't given enough credit. Though it doesn't have the complexity that you find in EvE, the absurdly large combination of powers and enhancements you can put together make it a really amazing game to just play. That doesn't even consider the fantastic character creation or its massive, massive pool of content available to players.
It's an easy game to pick up and play, but just like EvE, there's a tremendous amount of depth there if you look.
Now that is just funny and terribley sad all in one. Ahh the good old days.
EVE comes to mind for me, still a well thought out and in -depth MMORPG. Probably DF, never played it though, but it sounds like it follows the old school designs more than most.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
CIV 1-5. Meridian 59. Tetris. Montezumas revenge (C-64). Guildwars. Diablo, Quake 2...
There is a long list, a game is dumbed down when it gets annoyingly user friendly, like Windows Vista.... In MMOs is it when you get a quest and gets told everything that is going to happen, gets pointed down the way and they make it so simple that a chimp can do it.
Take Guitar hero, it were based on a game that learned people how to actually play a real guitar. Someone saw it and decided that a dumbed down version would sell great. It is fun at an afterparty but dumbed down games can be fun.
A not dumbed down game have very little or no tutorial and is hard, like Diablo. Mess up and you lose. That doesn't mean they can't be simple but they are never easy. Tetris is a good example, really simple but gets very hard after a while, act fast or lose.
On the other hand was Microsofts first "Flightsimulator*" a bit buggy, you couldn't land and while we all blamed ourselves the story got out a few years ago that it was impossible. While I like flight sims myself (particularly WW1) I rather have an X-box controller than that.
EVE Online
DarkFall
Mortal Online
Ryzom
Xsyon
To name a few....I think you'd get the idea.