Guild wars 2 will not become the "dominant" MMORPG or "threaten" the subscription model any more than F2P and B2P games already have. GW2 isn't any different then buying any number of games that provide online content and DLC's. The only major differences are 1) You have to be online to play GW2, and 2) The online world is persistent. GW2 will sell millions of boxes, but if you stop to think about it, how many boxes do you think AoC has sold total? They had over 1 million subs within their first month. GW1 in contracts received 6 million box sales over what, 4 - 5 years? And that consists of every expansion they sold, discount sales, group sales, etc. If WoW went off of box sales, how many do you think they would have sold?
The difference is how the company will gauge success. Single player games do what GW2 is doing all the time. GW1 was B2P touting their 6 million box sales and it didn't change much then either. All this will tell people is that people are willing to buy boxes for games.. thats not much of an achievement. You don't mark your success on how many people continue to play the game, or are willing to spend anything per month.... all you are looking at is how many people will buy your box.
You know, Im looking forward to playing gw2 as much as the next guy. But all this rampant fanboyism is choking the forums. You cant go two topics without some gw2 supenova blowing up a discussion. Its hard to talk about other mmos without some anet fanboy reminding us how much better their game/company is. Its really getting obnoxious.
If this happens, you may be correct. If GW2 can prove that it is feasible and profitable to operate a high-quality, AAA MMO with only box sales and MT, it could change the face of MMO gaming.
But that's a big IF.
so, whats GW2 gonna achieve that a ton of F2P already don't?
How you can charge a box price and sell expansions in addition to running a cash shop?
What changes is its a bigger company with an existing IP offering content on par with what is on offer in P2P. I really think they can make it happen if they aim for the *urgh* Casual crowd and try to pick up WoW's customers. With WotLK having ICC for one year as its only offering, if they can secure some of the WoW casuals, even on the off hours, they put a serious dent in and future MMO picking up those gamers, as they already have their alternative and they need not pay for a second monthly fee.
Couple that with the last few years of releases that would appear to merely be chasing box sales by releasing a half made product, but marketed with hype and lies, I think that box sales is the new target, not active subs.
There is potential for great change, be it for good or ill, something is clear, the industry is stagnant and rotting and needs something done.
A lot of MMORPG fans cut their teeth on WoW. WoW is a subscription based game.
Will that crowd like playing a game with a cash shop after being used to paying 15 bucks a month?
How about after they get tehir first credit card bill after visiting the cash shop?
What about when they reach mid level and don't want to spend money in the cash shop, but everyone buying items and xp postions zooms by them in levels?
I think the payment model itself has an impact on the game, regardless of the quality of the content.
“We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful. Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available, and that our core philosophy of not requiring you to spend additional money to play the game and not making the game difficult or painful to play in order to encourage you to buy things from the store still stands.”
- Eric Flannum, Guild Wars 2 Lead Game Designer in clarifying a recent PC Gamer article
Kindly cite your sources where it was confirmed that XP potions and B2W items will be available. Right now it seems that you don't know any more than anyone else. Of course, that doesn't seem to stop you from floating this particular canard because it suits your philosophy. Great, you want to pay you monthly tithe to your liege lord. Cool beans. Just back up your statements when you want to make claims that only subscription-based models are worthwhile. Otherwise, you're just another moonbat with an agenda.
Originally posted by maskedweasel but if you stop to think about it, how many boxes do you think AoC has sold total? They had over 1 million subs within their first month.
Single player games do what GW2 is doing all the time. GW1 was B2P touting their 6 million box sales and it didn't change much then either.
And SP games aren't MMOs and GW1 wasn't really an MMO, either... So what's your point again?
Actually, what's your point? GW1 was not an MMO but it still had to keep servers running for hundreds of thousands of people to play constantly, and they did. They still had to create expansions to make money, which they did (up to a point). They still had to run events and even make some new free content to keep players interested, and they did. They needed an item mall to help finance everything, but needed to create one filed with things people wanted, but didn't need. Which they did.
Exactly what, besides philosophy, separates that from any other MMO?
Nowhere anywhere, ever, has Arena Net said they will offer XP potions. In fact, they haven't said what they're offering at all yet. It could be EXP potions, but seeing as how there's almost NO leveling curve, it would be a waste of money for anyone to buy one and I think they know that. The only thing they have EVER said is that what will go into the item shop is entirely dependant on what players actually want to see there. Someone quoted the exact wording above already.
I'm always amazed at how angry people in these forums get when people spout nonsense about a game they're looking forward to, then go to a different game's forum and do the exact same thing.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I dont see GW 2 dominating the markets anytime soon, after all the majority of mmo's are played by word of mouth. (example: you buy EVE, you play it for a few days then you tell your friend about it so he's buys it, a few days later he tells another friend about and this is how its done.) Blizzard is the only company that made their game a household name like Lucas did with Star Wars until other companies and including ANet are going to have to quit sitting on their butts and let other markets develop other products of their games like Blizzard did with WoW . WoW has board games , comics , trade paperbacks, mouse pads, t-shirts, toys so forth an so on and this is why WoW is the most dominate game cuz it can produce revenue from other markets, so I'll say again until ANet follows suit GW 2 will never dominate or anyother game for that matter.
Nope.
Warcraft has had alot more time to build a large fan base than Guild Wars has. Because of this, it becomes profitable for Blizzard to reach out to the various markets you described. Anet and Guild Wars still has a good ways to go before anything like that becomes profitable for them.
Single player games do what GW2 is doing all the time. GW1 was B2P touting their 6 million box sales and it didn't change much then either.
And SP games aren't MMOs and GW1 wasn't really an MMO, either... So what's your point again?
Actually, what's your point? GW1 was not an MMO but it still had to keep servers running for hundreds of thousands of people to play constantly, and they did. They still had to create expansions to make money, which they did (up to a point). They still had to run events and even make some new free content to keep players interested, and they did. They needed an item mall to help finance everything, but needed to create one filed with things people wanted, but didn't need. Which they did.
Exactly what, besides philosophy, separates that from any other MMO?
Exactly GP, single player games like Red Dead Redemption also run multiplayer servers, they still put out DLC's and the like. Ultimately server costs, etc. That won't change too much, except perhaps more maintenance because you have a larger online world, but the premise behind these models are essentially the same.
What about the GMs or the staff that have to fix endless bugs? Who's gonna pay for them? I guess in gw2 the mission packs, skill packs and costumes will pay for them. Clearly a mmo can't survive with only box sales.
Well if the game comes out properly tested, this cost should be minimal.
Well, I think the OP has a valid point. Guild Wars 2 currently stands out among the upcoming AAA MMO games by NOT asking for a subscription.
If it is successful in our eyes wont many of us ask why the hell we are paying a subscription for *any* MMO? Wont we ask ourselves what exactly are we paying for?
I suspect the answer is very, very little. I suspect the only answer is we pay because it is TRADITIONAL to do so, and companies are simply taking advantage while they can get away with it.
If I think a bit about the MMO I subscribed to for the longest time (18 months or so) then I have an uncomfortable feeling. I paid for the box AND then an awful lot of money to Turbine in subs. They were giving very little in return. In fact, they used most of my money to make changes that were directed at attracting NEW customers and weakening the strengths that made me want to play in the first place!
GW2 will CONTRIBUTE to the downfall of the subscription model.
Granted i am for the idea of not having to pay for a sub. Unless the game blows out of the water (which hasn't be determined yet) didn't GW1 have this B2P model. yet we still have the majority of the MMos having a P2P model. I guess it really depends on what happens with the game.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Turbine and its games LOTRO and DDO keeps coming up on this thread and some hail it as better innovators than ANET with their B2P model the truth is the Subscription Model FAILED Turbine, that is why they now have this hybrid business model now i myself am very glad of Turbine's success ANET stuck with their business model after 2 full stand alone campaigns and an expansion they even stuck to it with their game's sequel they must be doing great with their current business model to stick to it
It would have to sell like 500 million copies to compete with the MONEY Blizzard makes from WoW. That's all that really matters.
You must understand, even if by some miracle it DID out sell WoW, it'd have to make more money for that to even be partially relevant to the grand scheme of things.
That said, it'd have to be a LOT of money for others to start following suit, because they don't want to risk a loss just because GW2 competed well.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW -------- Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD --------- Played and loved: Eve and WoW -------- Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
It would have to sell like 500 million copies to compete with the MONEY Blizzard makes from WoW. That's all that really matters.
You must understand, even if by some miracle it DID out sell WoW, it'd have to make more money for that to even be partially relevant to the grand scheme of things.
That said, it'd have to be a LOT of money for others to start following suit, because they don't want to risk a loss just because GW2 competed well.
If GW2 actually sold 10 million copies of their game, that would mean something. People would care. It might not be WoW money, but who has actually come close?
The P2P subscription model should be threatened, not because of any particular game, but because it's a fantastic ripoff. WoW came out a little over 6 years ago. A person who has played WoW since the very beginning has probably paid about $1200 towards it.
GW1 was no WoW killer. It's not a AAA MMO, it's probably not even an MMO. But what it did prove to me is that you can keep the servers running and the customer support there for years with no subscription. They're still banning people who exploit, they're putting out free new content in anticipation of GW2. They do this with only a vanity cash shop with no in-game advantage (just extra bank slots, character slots, stuff like that).
GW2 will be a AAA MMO in every sense. It has innovative gameplay, 5 races, 3 server PVP, 1500-1600 events (compared to WoW's 2600 quests split over 2 factions at launch). If it was P2P, nobody would doubt it was a AAA MMO for a second. It's only because they are sticking with the B2P model in order to reach more customers that people assume that it must be an inferior product.
The subscription model should have been threatened long ago, but people could always justify the subscription because they were getting more. Now that there is a AAA B2P challenger on the horizon, we'll see if people finally wise up.
And also, it's not an all or nothing game. If 10 million people buy GW2 at $60 apiece, it's still going to inspire companies to try to get a piece of that 600 million dollar action, even if only a fraction of those people actually leave their WoW subscription. If 3-4 years down the road there's two or three more AAA B2P games coming out, all competing for your $60, then we all win.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Granted i am for the idea of not having to pay for a sub. Unless the game blows out of the water (which hasn't be determined yet) didn't GW1 have this B2P model. yet we still have the majority of the MMos having a P2P model. I guess it really depends on what happens with the game.
I would argue that the majority of MMOs have a payment method other than subscription based. Most are "free to play" which includes cash shop and/or microtransactions.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
How does the way GW operate and way DDO operate differ? I played GW for about 2 hrs, so my knowledge is very limited. I was under the assumption they worked the same way. I don't see people pissing and moaning that DDO is not a MMO.
uhhh... Why are people talking about F2p games or relating it to GW1-2 as they are both clearly B2P. Two totally different models. F2P will NEVER become the standard model for the mmo industry simply because a B2P is far superior. for the simple fact that you do not need to invest in the cash shop in order to play the game or stand a chance in the game. The cash shop is completely optional and have no impact on the game world. Also the company is guaranteed the box sales money.
Lets do some math!!! So, gw has recently sold 6 million copies of GW. GW go for a standard $30 multiply that by 6 million and we get.. Drum roll please!! $180000000. Though on the other hand WoW makes that kind of money on a monthly bases. If we included box sales that number can be multiplied. In fact WoW can earn back all the expenses that Bioware/EA has spent on SWTOR in just two months.
Yeah, get real guys with that kind of money to be earned P2P is going to stay.
Comments
Guild wars 2 will not become the "dominant" MMORPG or "threaten" the subscription model any more than F2P and B2P games already have. GW2 isn't any different then buying any number of games that provide online content and DLC's. The only major differences are 1) You have to be online to play GW2, and 2) The online world is persistent. GW2 will sell millions of boxes, but if you stop to think about it, how many boxes do you think AoC has sold total? They had over 1 million subs within their first month. GW1 in contracts received 6 million box sales over what, 4 - 5 years? And that consists of every expansion they sold, discount sales, group sales, etc. If WoW went off of box sales, how many do you think they would have sold?
The difference is how the company will gauge success. Single player games do what GW2 is doing all the time. GW1 was B2P touting their 6 million box sales and it didn't change much then either. All this will tell people is that people are willing to buy boxes for games.. thats not much of an achievement. You don't mark your success on how many people continue to play the game, or are willing to spend anything per month.... all you are looking at is how many people will buy your box.
You know, Im looking forward to playing gw2 as much as the next guy. But all this rampant fanboyism is choking the forums. You cant go two topics without some gw2 supenova blowing up a discussion. Its hard to talk about other mmos without some anet fanboy reminding us how much better their game/company is. Its really getting obnoxious.
“We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful. Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available, and that our core philosophy of not requiring you to spend additional money to play the game and not making the game difficult or painful to play in order to encourage you to buy things from the store still stands.”
- Eric Flannum, Guild Wars 2 Lead Game Designer in clarifying a recent PC Gamer article
Kindly cite your sources where it was confirmed that XP potions and B2W items will be available. Right now it seems that you don't know any more than anyone else. Of course, that doesn't seem to stop you from floating this particular canard because it suits your philosophy. Great, you want to pay you monthly tithe to your liege lord. Cool beans. Just back up your statements when you want to make claims that only subscription-based models are worthwhile. Otherwise, you're just another moonbat with an agenda.
Source?
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
And SP games aren't MMOs and GW1 wasn't really an MMO, either... So what's your point again?
Hype train -> Reality
What gets my attention with GW2...the persistent world RVR...and a game where I can control what I will spend for a game.
Actually, what's your point? GW1 was not an MMO but it still had to keep servers running for hundreds of thousands of people to play constantly, and they did. They still had to create expansions to make money, which they did (up to a point). They still had to run events and even make some new free content to keep players interested, and they did. They needed an item mall to help finance everything, but needed to create one filed with things people wanted, but didn't need. Which they did.
Exactly what, besides philosophy, separates that from any other MMO?
@Imhotep and others:
Nowhere anywhere, ever, has Arena Net said they will offer XP potions. In fact, they haven't said what they're offering at all yet. It could be EXP potions, but seeing as how there's almost NO leveling curve, it would be a waste of money for anyone to buy one and I think they know that. The only thing they have EVER said is that what will go into the item shop is entirely dependant on what players actually want to see there. Someone quoted the exact wording above already.
I'm always amazed at how angry people in these forums get when people spout nonsense about a game they're looking forward to, then go to a different game's forum and do the exact same thing.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
If you go by the literal definition of an MMO, then GW was an MMO.
But who cares if it was one or not anyway, it was still an amazing game with some of the best lore out of any MMO to date.
Nope.
Warcraft has had alot more time to build a large fan base than Guild Wars has. Because of this, it becomes profitable for Blizzard to reach out to the various markets you described. Anet and Guild Wars still has a good ways to go before anything like that becomes profitable for them.
Exactly GP, single player games like Red Dead Redemption also run multiplayer servers, they still put out DLC's and the like. Ultimately server costs, etc. That won't change too much, except perhaps more maintenance because you have a larger online world, but the premise behind these models are essentially the same.
Well if the game comes out properly tested, this cost should be minimal.
Well, I think the OP has a valid point. Guild Wars 2 currently stands out among the upcoming AAA MMO games by NOT asking for a subscription.
If it is successful in our eyes wont many of us ask why the hell we are paying a subscription for *any* MMO? Wont we ask ourselves what exactly are we paying for?
I suspect the answer is very, very little. I suspect the only answer is we pay because it is TRADITIONAL to do so, and companies are simply taking advantage while they can get away with it.
If I think a bit about the MMO I subscribed to for the longest time (18 months or so) then I have an uncomfortable feeling. I paid for the box AND then an awful lot of money to Turbine in subs. They were giving very little in return. In fact, they used most of my money to make changes that were directed at attracting NEW customers and weakening the strengths that made me want to play in the first place!
GW2 will CONTRIBUTE to the downfall of the subscription model.
Granted i am for the idea of not having to pay for a sub. Unless the game blows out of the water (which hasn't be determined yet) didn't GW1 have this B2P model. yet we still have the majority of the MMos having a P2P model. I guess it really depends on what happens with the game.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Forget how the game is going to change the market (it's ahead of the curve). Think how it's going to change how you play/pay for MMOs.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Turbine and its games LOTRO and DDO keeps coming up on this thread and some hail it as better innovators than ANET with their B2P model
the truth is the Subscription Model FAILED Turbine, that is why they now have this hybrid business model
now i myself am very glad of Turbine's success
ANET stuck with their business model after 2 full stand alone campaigns and an expansion
they even stuck to it with their game's sequel
they must be doing great with their current business model to stick to it
Have fun storming the castle! - Miracle Max
It would have to sell like 500 million copies to compete with the MONEY Blizzard makes from WoW. That's all that really matters.
You must understand, even if by some miracle it DID out sell WoW, it'd have to make more money for that to even be partially relevant to the grand scheme of things.
That said, it'd have to be a LOT of money for others to start following suit, because they don't want to risk a loss just because GW2 competed well.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
--------
Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
---------
Played and loved: Eve and WoW
--------
Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
If GW2 actually sold 10 million copies of their game, that would mean something. People would care. It might not be WoW money, but who has actually come close?
'GW2 may threaten the whole subscription model of the industry'
Lets hope so.
GW2 will shake the foundations of the industry like GW1 did years ago.
(lol@this thread)
Just like that boring snorefest called GW threatened the world economy
The P2P subscription model should be threatened, not because of any particular game, but because it's a fantastic ripoff. WoW came out a little over 6 years ago. A person who has played WoW since the very beginning has probably paid about $1200 towards it.
GW1 was no WoW killer. It's not a AAA MMO, it's probably not even an MMO. But what it did prove to me is that you can keep the servers running and the customer support there for years with no subscription. They're still banning people who exploit, they're putting out free new content in anticipation of GW2. They do this with only a vanity cash shop with no in-game advantage (just extra bank slots, character slots, stuff like that).
GW2 will be a AAA MMO in every sense. It has innovative gameplay, 5 races, 3 server PVP, 1500-1600 events (compared to WoW's 2600 quests split over 2 factions at launch). If it was P2P, nobody would doubt it was a AAA MMO for a second. It's only because they are sticking with the B2P model in order to reach more customers that people assume that it must be an inferior product.
The subscription model should have been threatened long ago, but people could always justify the subscription because they were getting more. Now that there is a AAA B2P challenger on the horizon, we'll see if people finally wise up.
And also, it's not an all or nothing game. If 10 million people buy GW2 at $60 apiece, it's still going to inspire companies to try to get a piece of that 600 million dollar action, even if only a fraction of those people actually leave their WoW subscription. If 3-4 years down the road there's two or three more AAA B2P games coming out, all competing for your $60, then we all win.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I remember how when GW1 was a success and it completely destroyed P2P. There hasn't been one successful P2P since GWs.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
I would argue that the majority of MMOs have a payment method other than subscription based. Most are "free to play" which includes cash shop and/or microtransactions.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
How does the way GW operate and way DDO operate differ? I played GW for about 2 hrs, so my knowledge is very limited. I was under the assumption they worked the same way. I don't see people pissing and moaning that DDO is not a MMO.
uhhh... Why are people talking about F2p games or relating it to GW1-2 as they are both clearly B2P. Two totally different models. F2P will NEVER become the standard model for the mmo industry simply because a B2P is far superior. for the simple fact that you do not need to invest in the cash shop in order to play the game or stand a chance in the game. The cash shop is completely optional and have no impact on the game world. Also the company is guaranteed the box sales money.
Lets do some math!!! So, gw has recently sold 6 million copies of GW. GW go for a standard $30 multiply that by 6 million and we get.. Drum roll please!! $180000000. Though on the other hand WoW makes that kind of money on a monthly bases. If we included box sales that number can be multiplied. In fact WoW can earn back all the expenses that Bioware/EA has spent on SWTOR in just two months.
Yeah, get real guys with that kind of money to be earned P2P is going to stay.