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Pve and mob spawn
Requiamer
Member Posts: 2,034
Hi, when i posted into a Rift thread about Rift and GW2 ways to build their games, i just gave a response that i think need to be posted here too. I don't want to take time rewriting it, so ill just paste the part that can help GW2 development and design.
"And honestly you better put your head in a bucked of cold water when you think about GW2. Yes they seam to make a lot of very nice things like personal history and dynamic events, which really seam so damn good. But honestly watch their demo video once more, and you'll see pve is always the same crap. Your toon goes into a not at all worked spawn 2 shoot totally dummy like Ai with no challenge whatsoever. They haven't worked any of the core pve mechanism neither in GW2. Mobs don't have any behavior, the spawn density and timing is not even a concern to the dev as it seam. Mobs doesn't seam to use skills at all, let alone combos, group strategy, simulation of "sense" or even leadership? This is all very far from any pve concern as it seam. They don't seam even linked most of the time. Its not like they showed us a group of players trying to pass a Koblod cavern where mobs seam to have a behavior and a strategy to defend their "home", they don't even seam to try to make things like that in GW2 either, as R.G tryed to make in Uo for exemple in '97...
So ye put your head in that bucket honestly, and i think a lot of people should do the same about GW2 for their own sanity at least, maybe even the GW2 dev."
So the point would be to talk about pve and mob behavior that are totally absent from mmo since UO. As if this wasn't even something worth thinking of for usual MMorpg developers 
As i said in the first mmo they tryed to give mob a "behavior" in the way they worked the spawn zone (small cavern, village....), the origine of the spawn if you want, then the density of the spawn (some had heavy density, other light depending of the type of mob), timing of the respawn was also a concern since it would simulate the flood of mob, orc fort in Uo had a quick timing for exemple which would make it very hard for you to go inside without being overwhelmed, harpies in an other hand was alone in the forest for exemple with a long respwan timing. I think the GW2 dev team should seriously think about this kind of things to implement into their game if they really want to make a good work.
But now i think you can do a lot better work tahn in UO and empahsis with group Ai, use of skills and all those stuff that wasn't in Uo for exemple, so that you can really give some material to the pve aspect. And just kick that dummy like Ai once and for all. I don't know how much a server can handle this kind of stuff. Maybe just few spawn could have this, not all mobs, but at least some maybe?
And sorry for my bad english.
Comments
The GW2 demo was made easier for people to run through it quickly but even then people were still dieing. I'd also say that having a pack mentalisty in a game especially one that might have solo players would make it too difficult to get anywhere in the game (for some). I've seen some monsters display some sense though, I've seem some dodge out of the way of projectiles and some knock people back when they got too close and that was when I was watching the 45-50 charr demo. But yea, a true test of Ai would be when the game does its open weekend. Hopefully we'll get to put it through its paces.
This was also my reply to you in that thread.
EDIT: Also mob spawns for dynamic events can't be seen any where near the event, I actually saw some rogues running to a dynamic event from ways away it was quite funny but who knows where they spawned from.
This is not a game.
Well not all mobs should have pack like behavior, just the one that usually are packed in fantasy, like orcs kobolds for exemples. Other mobs, could be solitary, or have a strong sense of clannish structure for exemple. Also not all spawns could have such an advanced work made on it, but having few spawn with a particular work made on them wouldn't hurt either.
Its just that i'm fade up with the totally dummy like pve really, where i know other alternative are possible, and maybe not even that hard to create with simple tool all mo have already. As i said R.G in Uo at least tryed to do that, but all this was just washed away after it, and really i don't know why, but for the dev to save few bucks.
^That's worth mentioning, the demo was apparently made a bit easier.
The other thing to add to your wish list OP: Would be mobs having some cool/interesting skills of their own, that makes you think more highly of the mob! I saw a few neat mob skills, hence why I mention it. We know there will be scaling: More mobs, more skills, higher levels. But how the AI works... that's hopefully interesting in PvE unlike a lot of games.
As for spawning, think I heard it mentioned that this occurs outside of the visual field as much as possible (?) but the above spawn sounds very cool if you can bump into some creatures and intercept them on their way somewhere!
And no taunt skill either?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I completely agree, that mmorpgs need the pve mobs to have some sort of AI or "behavior", instead of just wandering around like mindless dummies. I really hope GW2 implements it in some way or another, even something simple, it doesn't have to be grand or amazing the mob AI.
A game that I think is putting in some sort of AI or behavior pattern to it's mobs is TERA. In some of the videos enemies use specific skills and have "tells" as to the kind of skill it's gonna perform. I think thats something interesting, and I want to see how it progresses and works in-game.
(It slightly reminds of bosses in Final Fantasy how they have specific tells and ways to attack....)
I don't think they made anything about this in Tera, its just that the combat system being fps with medieval weapon, it emphasis a lot on aoe attacks. So they just made pack of small and weak mobs as well usual mobs. But they are no behavior behind them, they spawn ala L2, one each scare meter and all this. Nothing even close to the Orc fort in UO for exemple, and many other spawns in that game that shared the same philosphy, i remember quiet well in UO we used to say that you had to "work a spawn".
Are you talking about the very unfortunate demo where the devs were testing sound and video in the GDC event because there the dev testing it had some sort of invisibility and invulnerability so that's why those harpies didn't do much.
I'm pretty confident regarding mob AI since GW1 had ways better AI than other MMORPGs had in its time. If they can improve on that, it is still clearly above average mob AI in todays MMO standards. If you have played GW1 you shouldn't have any worries about the AI.
Mobs in events don't just spawn out of the ground like already mentioned and that is good enough for me. Respawn time only matters in dungeons which are instanced in this case so no worries.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
As everyone else stated, the demo was dumbed down so people could play within the 20-30 minute limit. Also, whithin the demo, there were hardly any mobs that would be pact and/or behavioral.
The human demo consisted of beginning creatures like worms and what not. There are plenty of videos with bandits fighting "back to back" and staying close. But the Charr did have mobs that attacked in groups. The Shatterer's minions attacked and sieged the charr base, and that was pretty neat in terms of mob A.I.
But to get it down to the basics, the majority of mobs will ALWAYS have to make themselves available. If they don't the persistent world will die, because a few players will wander around looking mobs. With that in mnd, take a look at GW1. Mobs that were intelligent would always travel in packs. And even if you only aggroed one in that pack, the whole pack joined into battle. This is similar to what ArenaNet has been trying to do. They have small clips portraying bands of centaurs attacking, and bandits "partying" up.
I would guess a rough estimate of maybe 60% creatures being solitary, and the rest being somewhat pack/band like. But I wouldn't be surprised if the majority were programmed to band together, since in GW2 there is natural grouping. Natural grouping is a phase where you are not in each other's party, but if you fight the same mobs you both get claims on the mob (be it loot, experience, or quest.)
While the OP may have some speculation, if you've ever played the first GW you'd realize that it's somewhat unrealistic. In the first game most mobs (especially later in the game) used some form of group tactics / skills, which is a large part of what made the game fun / challenging. To assume that they'd take such a massive step backwards is somewhat odd, especially when the game hasn't even undergone a public beta yet (they are still very much working on it).
I'm personally trying to reserve judgement on this one; because the first one was good, but not entirely what I expected. I think that's probably a good idea here, especially since we haven't really seen too much of the game yet. The demos, while impressive, really were only a small portion of the game.
If there are thinigs you want to see in the game, however, keep posting them (but I'd suggest doing it on the GW2 forums). Anet has some pretty competent people working for them, so don't be surprised if they've already concidered your ideas. However, they are pretty good about listening to their fans.
It has been said that you can't intercept them, they are invulnerable till they get to the event area. This is so that people do not grief an event by killing the mobs before the people in the event get to kill them.
This is not a game.
GW1s AI is still one of the best sadly. And the henchmens and heroes are surprisingly smart (except for some reason Koss and Mhenlo), while they don't perform as good as actual players they at least do pretty well and in many cases do better than noobs.
Arenanet knows how to make a good AI and even if they just use the same as GW1 it will still be better than most of the competition.
I do however hope they go a step further, mob AI is one of the worst part of MMORPGs (together with daily quests).
If they had dailies that would be fun... people would be grouping up for dungeons and such....might get a bit repetitive though but it would still be fun. Especially if you gain Karma points, gold and balthazar faction when it comes to pvp ( I do wonder if they kept Balth. fac. for pvp..).
This is not a game.
GW1 had dailies of a sort, the Z-missions and bounties.
That's what I was talking about but in this case if they tranferred that over to GW2.
This is not a game.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you only need dailies if you're using a quest system where you'd otherwise do it once and be done with it. If in GW2 you can redo any event in the game of any level anytime it's running, it's like the whole world is your daily quest hub.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
True that but dailies could also be a side attraction and can make the more of the community have a shared goal leading to more grouping.
This is not a game.
GW2 has daily quests. Kill 25 mobs, kill 3 different mobs and alot more than that! i like it and it looks fun:)
Oh yeah, but I think they are called "Feats" as in Feats of Strenght. They are more like achievements and I don't quite remember what you get for completing those....it might be buffs or titles or something..but I don't think they are particularly dailies.
This is not a game.
there where some pretty amazing mobs in GWEN the guild wars 1 expansion, they used builds and worked together rather feircly, and the devs did mention GWEN was a way to tryout some of the things they wanted to implement. If so we can prob beleive we will see better AI in the higher levels, an in dungeons.
I would call the mobs in this Level 10 Ranger Demo (2:00), competent. Of course they could be a lot better, like have better group tactics and a greater area of awareness (they were just standing around the field before the player got near) but it's OK for a demonstration.
Don't forget to add Alesia to the list. She was always capable of keeping every group on their toes.
Now for the OP:
As has been stated many times already, the AI in the demo was dumbed down to allow people to see as much content as possible. Anet has stated this. They mentioned that world bosses would be significantly more challenging, almost painful, than they were in the demo.
Anet has also stated a few times that mobs would have their own set of separate abilities to use. They will not use abilities that players have. Whether this means that the abilities will have the same function with a different name and icon slapped on it, I don't know.
I can't tell you how the AI will act when the game comes out, as unfortunately, it isn't close to release yet. Beta isn't even out. Even then I guarantee the AI will change throughout Beta. So really release will be the ultimate indicator of AI. And even then... Anet still modifies AI 5 years into release. So unforunately none of us can tell you exactly how mob AI will be like.
I'm not really concerned, as I'm not expecting a lot from the AI in the general world mobs. I'm expecting event mobs, bosses, rare mobs, and dungeon mobs to have better AI.
OK i think poeple didn't understand everything i was talking about. Ai is just a small part of the tools available for the designers to give a sensation of mob behavior.
Apart from the Ai, you have timing of spawn (how often the mob respawn is it every 1sec or every min, does it give you enough time to loot and recover for exemple before it respawn) and you have the space of the spawn (is it a small or big area), you have the origine (does it spawn in the wild randomly or at the entrance of a hut inside a small village), you have the density (in the spawn you have 3 mobs spawning, or 300)... Other few factors can enter into play, like is the character fighting in a closed area with almost no fleeing paths, or it have some fleeing path but some of them are a death trap because it lead into even harder zones... Things like that that can spice up the pve sensation by a lot. I don't know if some of you guys had played Uo, but you could definitly feel the dev tweaked all this manually to give some sensations in this game. Also as i said in Uo you had to "work the spawn", this mean you'll had to come to a balance in the spawn so it is easier for you to kill the mobs playing with he timing and all this.
I have yet to see an mmo after it with such things, and the Ai in Uo isn't better than the modern mmo at all.
Ai is about what skills the mob will use, is it agressive, linked, so it is an other part of the mobs behavior.
Both Ai and the spawn must work together, for exemple if you want to give a sensation of packed mobs, like kobolts for exemple you'll have them weak (low hp) with stupid Ai (no skills), but they would have a very short respawn timer, and a high density at least around their home area (orc fort worked that way in UO), would have a large link distance... I don't know why the designers never work on their spawning zone in their game, maybe because its a very time consuming hand job (i know i did it in some emulated mmo and its definitly time consuming, compare to a paint/formula tool to set the spawn for exemple). Also i think since its 3d they can't really put a very high density of mobs like it was in Uo, but never the less they could at least try i think and see how it can be done(also density can be simulated with respawn timer, a mob could respawn if the first loose some hp so that you could simulated high density with small number). Darkfall tryed to do something like that but they just falled short
If those things where in the demos you would have seen it in the demos, no matter how much they would have dumped it down. Because its is about how they built the stuff.
Also i talk here about very very basic stuff that was already done on purpose so it is easier to understand. This can and must be pushed a lot further. Like boss fight, in usuall mmo bos are uber mob with zillion hp and a stupid sequence to give a false sensation of group stragegy. They don't have "behavior" at all. A koblod king to take the exemple i made, would be a huge mob standing there with nothing around so to give space to the party to make his little job in usual mmo. It would never have zillion koblods around it defending his hut for exemple as it should be in a fantasy like setting.
If you want pure intelligence in gameplay I'd suggest you play PvP my friend. AI can be made to do many things, however, in the end it will always be predictable.
AI is the next frontier in gaming. the hard part about them doing very complex AI is it is really computer resource intensive. Things people ask for would require a super computer to calculate all the AI of the mobs on a server.
LOL...Pvp is real intelligence?
Have you looked around yourself lately? The world is littered with ignorance, stupidity, and apathy. Most human beings have no common sense nor do they have any idea what logic is.
*note* it is not my intention to sound condescending, all I ask is you consider my statement and utilize your own observations to put a rational value on it. Thanks
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
I'd like to see different mobs with different AI so that they look different and play different. Some of the mob skills have been very good I have seen in the demos, is so far so good.
Dungeons will have fixed player number capped at 5 and higher level mobs and randomized mobs in Repeat Mode will likely be where the most challenging AI mobs will be based.
After that I agree PvP.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem