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What is a sandbox? What is a themepark? Is there really a difference?
Emergence
Member Posts: 888
I've been thinking lately... what's the difference?
I've thought about Ultima Online in the view that it's themepark. It could be. There's only so much to actually do ...Right?
Of course, seeing WoW as a sandbox is a bit more difficult. You're limited to Leveling, and only in 1-2 zones per level bracket. Yet in the upper levels, there seems to be a lot of different things to do. Tons of fun battlegrounds I never got to experience.
Everquest2 really felt like a sandbox to me, nothing like WoW in my opinion. There were SO many choices. Of course, I never went past level 30 :P
DAoC was obviously themepark (PvE or PvP-- no other objects) but it was one of the best games ever!
I never played Eve (to be honest, it was too boring to even start, too slow? I actually don't know. Never gave it a chance.)
Darkfall felt like a sandbox... with NOTHING IN IT! LoL. It was basically PvP or grind skills. That's not much of a choice when it comes to sandbox. I never really felt I could do anymore than what I can do in WoW, which is entirely themepark. Yet it is considered sandbox. Why? It's so empty sometimes.
Well, before I get flamed I'll stop listing MMORPG's specifically, and just ask,
What does it require to be a sandbox? Why do you want a sandbox? What is your dream of a sandbox, and how would that be accomplished?
Exactly... lol...
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Comments
A themepark offers select few paths to reach a specific goal. Your limited in paths, but guaranteed the goal. Like a single player game. WoW mastered this concept and brought a huge chunk of the single player RPG world into MMOs. Easy to pick up, fast food kind of entertainment. And most importantly content focused.
A sandbox offers limitless paths to any possible goal. Your never limited, but never guaranteed to get what you want. You have a much more challenging and unforgiving game world. Player interaction focused.
It is a definition which seems rather hard to pin down exactly. A Themepark is traditionally a game that is rather narrow in scope. Zones feel smallish and everything is in a relatively neat and orderly fashion where the game and its quests lead you by the hand around the gameworld. At their worst they become little more than something akin to the Pirates of the Carribean ride from Disneyland, rather than an MMO. Kiind of like your typical console action game or shooter.
Sandboxes are more like the real world. You have a large game area replete with towns, counties, forests caves, keeps, labyrinths, dungeons, bad guys, good guys, etc. Set up a rough story about the world, why it is the way it is and then let the players come in and run rampant. There are quests, just not with a big sign pointing you to it. There are events, in the past they are run by a gm or a team of gms and these happen, at least when the sandboxes were new, that happened every couple of weeks or so, not the once a year pre-expansion type things, but fun things like in SWG having a couple gms showing up as principle characters (vader, skywalker, etc etc) summoning npcs and everyone having a huge battle between gms, pcs, and npcs.
Now, where it gets fuzzy.
Some, SOME!!! lol, themeparks can be sandboxes. In so far as for example wow, you can turn off the quest indicators and just go. You can stumble upon the quests and towns almost just like a sandbox. You can also have themeparks within sandboxes, again like swg. These were small areas filled with quests that would tell a specific storyline, things like the Corellian Corvette, Jabba's Palace, Rebel and Imperial Themeparks etc.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I would generally agree with statement dreamscaper. In practice though I think the lines are becoming very blurry. Take the typical games that many consider sandbox, eve, ryzome, vanguard to an extent. WoW offers almost as many options as they do, give wow a few more options for character development, housing and I think it would be more sandboxy than any of those games.
To me a sandbox has specific elements to it: very customized class design (either multiclass system in some way or skill based), player structures, and some ability to impact the game world (hopefully through content, but other ways are fine too... unlockable races, structures, areas of contention...).
In other words, the ability to pick from a variety of choices how I want to play that day.
Venge Sunsoar
Limitless? Be serious.
You can only do things the game is programmed to let you do. You can't fly in Darkfall and you can't walk in EVE (yet.) The goals may be self-driven, but they're really rather straightforward -- and many of those same goals are replicated in themeparks.
"I want to conquer this area" is possible in EVE but not WOW. (well, it vaguely is but the sense of ownership is really nowhere close)
"I want to be an amazing trader" is possible in both.
"I want to run a daily trivia contest" is possible in both.
If you want to be stronger or richer, then in either game you're going to have to jump through a linear series of hoops to become better (well actually in either game you have multiple options of becoming richer and in WOW you have 2-3 paths to become stronger whereas in EVE there's sort of just 1: pay money to CCP and wait.)
You're left with a sort of strange definition that sandboxes are about some vague combination of open PVP, territorial control, and to a lesser degree construction and skill-based progression (though tbh, I've always held that skill-based progression is largely separate from what makes sandboxes sandbox.)
Better to evangelize the strengths of those 4 specific features than to try to claim sandboxes let you do anything you want -- because they don't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
[Removed by the author due to incorrectness.]
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cloudsol/
I dont think there is any requirements to be sandbox or themepark set in stone.
You just take major points of game and decide if it is sandbox or themepark.
Personally for game to be sandbox there shouldnt be classes and skills/stats should be related. Meaning that whatever you do you get better in bunch of things. Cutting tree gives strength, endurance which makes you better in combat (a lot better in melee, a bit better in ranged/magic), gathering plants give you perception which helps you notice more nodes, hidden enemies etc. Another thing is not instanced world. Open PvP (or at least in majority of wilderness). But major thing is to switch easily for what you want to do, wanna gather? just get your satchel and sickle (dont know if those 2 words are right), wanna mine? get pickaxe and you reade. Wanna use magic? Equip wand for better efficiency or just do it with bare hands. And so on and on.
When I think more on it 1 major difference between Sandbox and Themepark is STORY. When playing themeparks it is like reading book/watching movie (most of the time), when in sandbox: you create your own story.
ALL games are level based, some games hide it well, like UO or SWG pre the big tear fest...
Darkfall, Mortal Online, and even Earthrise, which I am ALL DOWN FOR, at the basic point, the nitty gritty, it is all levels...
Dig it...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Please don't.
Instead, you could provide your definition? I'd love to hear it.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I think the biggest thing is to give the players options. A lot of "themepark" MMOs basically limit character growth to killing things and running missions to level up. In a sandbox, I'd expect a player to be able to advance in the game through various means besides just killing things. The game wouldn't be linear. You wouldn't be ushered from one zone to another to another and so on and so forth. I'm not going to say that Darkfall is a themepark, but I do think that that game is too linear when it comes to equipment and skills. Some people would swear up and down that a sandbox MUST have FFA full-loot PVP. I think that this view is narrow-sighted. I would think for a sandbox to be a sandbox, then it should cater to the pvp and non-pvp crowds like Eve does (yes, I'm aware that Eve technically has ffa pvp, but the penalty in high sec is such that rarely does it happen randomly).
And:
http://play.eveonline.com/en/home.aspx
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Sandbox/Theme park has different meaning between different posters.
Might be helpful if we compare it in a single player game.
Sandbox is Elder scrolls/Just Cause 2
Theme park is Dragon Age/Mass Effect2
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
My definition of a sandbox is simple. Choice. If I decide that i dont like the build I have I can change it. [which you cant in themeparks]. If I want to focus on crafting and selling those goods I shoud be able to do that. [theoreticaly you could do it in themeparks but its not like you can focus completely on crafting. you have to pick a class]. If you dont want to do quests you shouldnt have to. There shouldnt be any restrictions based on level [mounts, equipment, etc.]. You get the idea.
Just look at the litteral meanings of the two words, it's what they should mean.
Sandboxes are nothing without the toys to play around with inside it and use them in your own creative ways or however you see fit.
Theme Parks are pretty much the opposite, there is no creative freedom, just strap yourself in, and enjoy the ride.
But the two seem to get confused and lumped into the same sub-genre when mmo's are concerned now, I really cannot tell the difference between sandbox or themepark mmo's, they're all linear themeparks to me, but in single player games differences is a little more obvious atleast (Just Cause=sandbox, Assassin's Creed=themepark).
Man you just think too much honestly, nothing good can come from this. If you aim for nonsens, then be it, but don't ever think nonsens could actually make sense. Anything you say here doest worth more than nothing...
Ultima online a themepark, Wow a sand box, wtf man. Honestly you just sound like you are Trolling yourself here, which is pretty funn to say the least.
Well if you cannot understand those concepts behind the design of those games maybe you can understand the metaphores defining them.
A themepark is like the themepark you go with your kids right, its an easy entretainement anyone can visit, just like dysney land or whatever themepark are everywhere. Basiclally those mmo are just easy computer game with the massivle multiplayer aspect of it. They are just games basically.
Sandbox is a box of sand, this mean you get the box and you are like on the see side, you can build whatever you would like with this, it is here to entice your imagination. Its also a game even child could play, but its more a game where you are acting and creating. Also its pretty hard to build anything really good with sand right. Those mmo are more on the rpg side, they have open character building, a lot of rp stuff to do, its more like a world filled with many many real life aspect to it, i don't know like herding sheep. Those game are more like virtual world, and are totally open for you to build your caharcter life.
My point is, you could certainly herd sheep in a thempark too, yet it would be made in such a way that the difference would be obvious, because both design aim for something else. I understand a lot of new gamer can't gasp those concept correctly, because in fact they never played sandbox games, they just heard about it, and they don't know what to do and how to explain what people tell them. They are few sandbox around just use google ask for a real sand box in the LFGame forum, and be on your way really. OK those real sandbox are usually like 2d games without a very high population, they are basically very crappy and feel like '90games, but they are real sandbox. If you want to understand what those concept are play those game and stop this nonsens.
I never said I didn't understand either of the two concepts. I wanted to hear what other people thought and their definitions and concepts of the two.
It's not insane, trolling, or idiotic to want to see the minds and opinions of others. Especially over such a vaguely defined set of words such as these.
Don't be so serious please, and try to relax please. Not everyone who asks simple questions is an idiot who does not understand the answers.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Man don't take it personally, i wasn't agressive, i tryed to help and point you the right direction to find the proper anwser, thats all. the difference is just obvious when playing those games, but they are hard to explain because they underline game design. So ye go play those game with those differe,t design in mind and it will be very obvious to you afterward.
I agree with the above poster. These threads are so open to interpretation and how many times has this been asked? What's the difference between a sandbox and a themepark? If you played some of them, you would know. I'm not saying you don't have a right to ask, but for goodness sake at least use the search feature before you post a question.
You are a spotlight poster, do you always post questions that have been asked ad nauseum? Generating discussion about a topic is a good thing. Generating discussion about the same topics over and over is boring. I think I've tried to answer this exact question 4 or 5 times now.
Good luck and I hope you find the answers you are looking for. Please use the search feature.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
I would say a sandbox is world that can, and does change 'perminately' based on player / npc action. For example, towns could be owned by any faction, or even built / destoryed by players or npcs... Bascally a dynamic world. I say 'perminately' as further player / npc action could reverse the change.
A themepark doesn't change, at least not for long, or until a major patch / expansion is released. For example, a group of players could overun an enemy town, but that town still belongs to the enemy and as soon as those players leave it will go back to exactly how it was before it was overun.
There are of course games that are / can be a mix of both.
A sandbox is some kind of world simulation that the players themselves can change.
A themepark is a static world, or a world only changed by predetermined events.
So yes, there is a difference.
Who ever stated that Vanguard would be a sandbox ? Vanguard was a themepark par excellence, with only very rare sandbox elements (houses, ships).
Don't let it worry you Emergance, as a discussion topic this is as valid as anything else. Some people just need to turn everything into a hostile argument, don't let it rile you.
Can i ask though, what do YOU think of sandbox games? What is your personal experience of playing them? Have you looked at beyond the mainstream to see whats happeneing?
They obviously don't appeal to the mainstream (mainstream's loss imo) but games like Love, ATitD, and Xsyon have fantastic tools that you use to effect the owrld around you (especially Love), way beyond anything you will see in a themepark game like Rift (who's main selling points include it's ability to only randomly change the local environment FOR you via rifts). Have you looked at or tried any of these?
Until you look and see what others out there away from the limited scope mainstream hype monsters are offering it's hard to understand the real difference in the play models.
The only difference lays in the mind of the players. That's why you have as many definitions as you have players.
Some games give more "freedom" than others, but all MMO's give elements of freedom and choice of play.
Even ST on line.
Yeah, I love the scope and abition of VG, but it is definitely a themepark with sandbox elements, rather then the other way around.
And thats fine for it. No one has written down anywhere that themeparks have to be as small and forced as the current generation of games.
In fact, I usually use VG as a example when people tell me thempark = extremely limited and linear, because VG is lving proof that it dosent have to be. There is nothing inherently wrong with themeparks as a design choice, it's they way they have been built for the last few years thats the problem.
Nonetheless, it is built on solid themepark foundations, as much as EQ was before it. It just lets you decide how to spend your day when in the park and dosent tell you what order to enjoy the rides.