Sandbox MMORPG = a simulated environment (virtual world) where players create characters and then play out their personal storyline.
Themepark MMORPG = a game where players create characters and then experience storyline as dictated by design.
The blur is that some designs, by accident or intent, try to fall in between these two.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
For me the difference is easy. Just look at their names. A themepark like 6-flags is place where you go and ride rides that the owners of the park have designed to be exciting, interesting, and the same every time. Where as a sandbox you go with your tool and build what ever you think of, how much fun you have is up to you, not everyone is going to have the same amount of fun or even do similar thing. Once your done people know that you have been there and/or that was your castle.
In game terms Themeparks are really really easy to define. Set choices for character look, set class choices, ability given at set levels, battlegrounds that no real point other then getting pvp money, quests with only do or don't do options, etc..
Sandboxes are harder in game terms but basically their are two groups. First options allowing someone's character X to be different from someone else character Y. These range from lots of classes, talent trees, more options at character creation, armor dyes, crafting options, etc. This group is like sandbox light, most themepark games try to have some of this, but they tend to use very basic versions of these. The other group is affecting the world putting down bases, houses, winning areas for faction X or guild X, etc... For me this group of abilities really defines a sandbox game to me, the ability to make a mark on the world.
Personally I don't get why FFA pvp + full loot = sandbox, to me that just makes it a pvp heavy game. If you take wow and give it FFA pvp + full loot it would not be a sandbox game to me.
I havn't found a good sandbox since SWG. I know alot of sandboxers like Eve but I just can't bring my self to play the game as I hate the combat.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
ideally, sandbox has all the tools, but no goals. players make their own goals.
theme park has goals. player is there to complete them.
no game is pure one or the other. all games are at least a bit of sandbox, since you can define your own goals, even in WOW. and again, all games are at least a bit of theme park, as they are limited in scope and run on limited resources, and can only provide limited number of possible outcomes.
in EVE, there are people that only do missions, which are classic theme-park on rails.
in WOW, there are people that only role-play, which is effectively ultimate sandbox.
so, it's really not what you play. it's how you play it.
ideally, sandbox has all the tools, but no goals. players make their own goals.
theme park has goals. player is there to complete them.
no game is pure one or the other. all games are at least a bit of sandbox, since you can define your own goals, even in WOW. and again, all games are at least a bit of theme park, as they are limited in scope and run on limited resources, and can only provide limited number of possible outcomes.
in EVE, there are people that only do missions, which are classic theme-park on rails.
in WOW, there are people that only role-play, which is effectively ultimate sandbox.
so, it's really not what you play. it's how you play it.
Wtf its not the gamer that difine a game, its the design. You just are mixing things up. You can put all the rp freak in WOW and shake it all you want the game is a themepark. You can put all the kids in UO and have them go pve all day with their dragon to get rich, it won't make Uo a themepark. Its not the player that define a game, but its design. People are just mixing things.
You can ride this korean girl car like a F1 driver all you want it won't make it a sport car, now you could feel your are driving sportly, but this is where it end up.
ideally, sandbox has all the tools, but no goals. players make their own goals.
theme park has goals. player is there to complete them.
no game is pure one or the other. all games are at least a bit of sandbox, since you can define your own goals, even in WOW. and again, all games are at least a bit of theme park, as they are limited in scope and run on limited resources, and can only provide limited number of possible outcomes.
in EVE, there are people that only do missions, which are classic theme-park on rails.
in WOW, there are people that only role-play, which is effectively ultimate sandbox.
so, it's really not what you play. it's how you play it.
Wtf its not the gamer that difine a game, its the design. You just are mixing things up. You can put all the rp freak in WOW and shake it all you want the game is a themepark. You can put all the kids in UO and have them go pve all day with their dragon to get rich, it won't make Uo a themepark. Its not the player that define a game, but its design. People are just mixing things.
You can ride this korean girl car like a F1 driver all you want it won't make it a sport car, now you could feel your are driving sportly, but this is where it end up.
While I agree with you that he is genrally wrong Req, Spinner is right in that very few games are pure examples of one or the other.
This isnt a bad thing imo, very few people can handle a pure sandbox... they would log in and just not know what to do with themselves. They would complain a 'lack of content', 'being lost', and having 'no direction'. If I was to build a sandbox I would probably incorperate some themepark elements in order to help the (majority) of MMOers that simply arnt used to the model.
Even a new sandbox game like Arche Age has to recognise this in it's design tbh. Like I say, themepark mechanics are not by defintion bad, it's down to how heavily they are used and how much freedom and self determination they take from the player.
ideally, sandbox has all the tools, but no goals. players make their own goals.
theme park has goals. player is there to complete them.
no game is pure one or the other. all games are at least a bit of sandbox, since you can define your own goals, even in WOW. and again, all games are at least a bit of theme park, as they are limited in scope and run on limited resources, and can only provide limited number of possible outcomes.
in EVE, there are people that only do missions, which are classic theme-park on rails.
in WOW, there are people that only role-play, which is effectively ultimate sandbox.
so, it's really not what you play. it's how you play it.
Wtf its not the gamer that difine a game, its the design. You just are mixing things up.
No he's right.
Some games give less tools, other games give more tools in either game but ... it is the player who decides WHAT, HOW and WHEN he wants to ... play.
Seriously this is about playing a game and deciding what you want to do: craft, pve, pvp, commerce,...
All MMO's go back to the 4 cppc basic elements above. Every single one of them.
ideally, sandbox has all the tools, but no goals. players make their own goals.
theme park has goals. player is there to complete them.
no game is pure one or the other. all games are at least a bit of sandbox, since you can define your own goals, even in WOW. and again, all games are at least a bit of theme park, as they are limited in scope and run on limited resources, and can only provide limited number of possible outcomes.
in EVE, there are people that only do missions, which are classic theme-park on rails.
in WOW, there are people that only role-play, which is effectively ultimate sandbox.
so, it's really not what you play. it's how you play it.
Wtf its not the gamer that difine a game, its the design. You just are mixing things up. You can put all the rp freak in WOW and shake it all you want the game is a themepark. You can put all the kids in UO and have them go pve all day with their dragon to get rich, it won't make Uo a themepark. Its not the player that define a game, but its design. People are just mixing things.
You can ride this korean girl car like a F1 driver all you want it won't make it a sport car, now you could feel your are driving sportly, but this is where it end up.
have you ever free-form role-played? i mean, table-top with other people? a free-form role-play is ultimate sanbox experience. you can do ANYTHING. trust me, there will NEVER be a MMO with mechanics that come even close to it. except, what is there to stop you to role-play in any online game with chat option? others don't agree? so what? it's your fun. and if you can find others that want to go along, the better.
it IS players that define game, not design. as long as you can find enough reasons to play, who's to stop you from slaying things and loot stuff? or shooting stuff just because they make explosions, even if there's no other tanglible reward for it?
in a way, if you do only what game or others tell you to do, you are playing themepark, regardless of what game you play.
and if you do what you like, regardless of whatever game or anyone else tells you to do, you are playing a sandbox.
to be honest, it's game devs that "play" a true sandbox. they are making something that wasn't there before (even if it just a clone). most of the players are just along for a ride, not much different that reading a book.
ideally, sandbox has all the tools, but no goals. players make their own goals.
theme park has goals. player is there to complete them.
no game is pure one or the other. all games are at least a bit of sandbox, since you can define your own goals, even in WOW. and again, all games are at least a bit of theme park, as they are limited in scope and run on limited resources, and can only provide limited number of possible outcomes.
in EVE, there are people that only do missions, which are classic theme-park on rails.
in WOW, there are people that only role-play, which is effectively ultimate sandbox.
so, it's really not what you play. it's how you play it.
Wtf its not the gamer that difine a game, its the design. You just are mixing things up.
No he's right.
Some games give less tools, other games give more tools in either game but ... it is the player who decides WHAT, HOW and WHEN he wants to ... play.
Seriously this is about playing a game and deciding what you want to do: craft, pve, pvp, commerce,...
All MMO's go back to the 4 cppc basic elements above. Every single one of them.
Have to disagree.
You are getting confused with linear and themepark, but like I have explined they are not the same thing.
Having the choice of which ride to go on next isnt the same as being a sandbox.
I've been thinking lately... what's the difference?
I've thought about Ultima Online in the view that it's themepark. It could be. There's only so much to actually do ...Right?
UO:
- World PvP with Full Loot
-World PvE
-Crafting
All those 3 elements are bound together, you are kinda forced to play all of them to have fun.
You won't be able to PvP if you don't do PvE or Crafting in order to have decent gear.
You can't just choose to PvE because the world PvP won't allow you to be safe anywhere so you need to be able to PvP even if it's not your favourite style.
Crafting, although you aqre not strictly forced to do it, it gives you great advantages both in PvP and PvE if you choose to do so.
The sandbox element is the fact that you can mix those 3 elements to various degrees, attuning them to your own play style, without following a certain path (Non Linear)
WoW:
- Battlegrounds
-Arenas
-Crafting
-Dungeons
-Raids
-Questing
-PvP servers
-PVE servers
WoW is a collection of mini games, exacly like a theme park.
In Wow you can pick your "ride" and have fun just with the ride you choose, without caring about the otthers and still have fun.
Exactly like in a real theme park, you are not forced to try everrything, you can just stick with the ride that gives you more fun.
That's the difference between Sandbox and Themepar MMOs.
ideally, sandbox has all the tools, but no goals. players make their own goals.
theme park has goals. player is there to complete them.
no game is pure one or the other. all games are at least a bit of sandbox, since you can define your own goals, even in WOW. and again, all games are at least a bit of theme park, as they are limited in scope and run on limited resources, and can only provide limited number of possible outcomes.
in EVE, there are people that only do missions, which are classic theme-park on rails.
in WOW, there are people that only role-play, which is effectively ultimate sandbox.
so, it's really not what you play. it's how you play it.
Wtf its not the gamer that difine a game, its the design. You just are mixing things up. You can put all the rp freak in WOW and shake it all you want the game is a themepark. You can put all the kids in UO and have them go pve all day with their dragon to get rich, it won't make Uo a themepark. Its not the player that define a game, but its design. People are just mixing things.
You can ride this korean girl car like a F1 driver all you want it won't make it a sport car, now you could feel your are driving sportly, but this is where it end up.
have you ever free-form role-played? i mean, table-top with other people? a free-form role-play is ultimate sanbox experience.
it IS players that define game, not design.
No, again it is the fundemantal design of the tabletop RPG that allows this freedom.
Choosing what ride to go on next, or stand around talking if you prefer, in the grounds of the themepark dosent make it a sandbox.
Themepark isnt the same thing as linear, though many think it is because modern themeparks are built in a very linear way (Rift for example). Good themeparks, like VG, still offer choice, and lots of it, but again choice about which ride to go on and in what order dosent make it a sandbox.
No, again it is the fundemantal design of the tabletop RPG that allows this freedom.
Choosing what ride to go on next, or stand around talking if you prefer, in the grounds of the themepark dosent make it a sandbox.
Themepark isnt the same thing as linear, though many think it is because modern themeparks are built in a very linear way (Rift for example). Good themeparks, like VG, still offer choice, and lots of it, but again choice about which ride to go on and in what order dosent make it a sandbox.
I play an MMORPG like a proper RPG table top. It is MY decision to fish, to visit a town or to do any activity.
I like to craft a flying carpet? So I craft a flying carpet.
If it is not available in game, I craft something else. Do you think EVERYTHING is available in EVE.? Yeah ? Well I like to craft me some boots ...Ooops.
ideally, sandbox has all the tools, but no goals. players make their own goals.
theme park has goals. player is there to complete them.
no game is pure one or the other. all games are at least a bit of sandbox, since you can define your own goals, even in WOW. and again, all games are at least a bit of theme park, as they are limited in scope and run on limited resources, and can only provide limited number of possible outcomes.
in EVE, there are people that only do missions, which are classic theme-park on rails.
in WOW, there are people that only role-play, which is effectively ultimate sandbox.
so, it's really not what you play. it's how you play it.
Wtf its not the gamer that difine a game, its the design. You just are mixing things up.
No he's right.
Some games give less tools, other games give more tools in either game but ... it is the player who decides WHAT, HOW and WHEN he wants to ... play.
Seriously this is about playing a game and deciding what you want to do: craft, pve, pvp, commerce,...
All MMO's go back to the 4 cppc basic elements above. Every single one of them.
Have to disagree.
You are getting confused with linear and themepark, but like I have explined they are not the same thing.
Having the choice of which ride to go on next isnt the same as being a sandbox.
I can choose to play the economy game in about any other MMO I can think off. Actually people are doing this.
yes, 'playing the economy' is a ride.
I personally play for PvP achievements in WOW, independant of levels, independant of end game for the most part.
yes, you prefer the achievements ride to the others.
And indeed I even have a character that simply enjoys fishing for rare fish and fishing titles ...
You character dosent enjoy anything
But yes, on this character you like to go on the fishing ride.
I can do that in all other MMO's (or similar activities). It is not that if you have 300 rides you can(t invent 3000 other rides with ease.
In all your examples you have chosen to go on rides, with maybe only the economy aspect having a wider impact on the world.
But I have already stated that many themeparks have sandbox elements, and this is a good example of that.
That's the player: HE decides his proper sandbox.
No, sandboxes are defined by the systems the dev chooses to implement.
Like I keep saying, linear isnt the same as themepark... no one is sugessting it is. Going to a good themepark involves lots of choices, even in the real world.
It dosent make it a sandbox. You are still emtertained, rather then entertaining yourself.
No, again it is the fundemantal design of the tabletop RPG that allows this freedom.
Choosing what ride to go on next, or stand around talking if you prefer, in the grounds of the themepark dosent make it a sandbox.
Themepark isnt the same thing as linear, though many think it is because modern themeparks are built in a very linear way (Rift for example). Good themeparks, like VG, still offer choice, and lots of it, but again choice about which ride to go on and in what order dosent make it a sandbox.
heh. are you aware that there are people that play only official adventures for specific table-top RPG system? also, they use pre-built characters. they ignore character background and are interested only in abilities and equipement. most of their gameplay consists of combat and loot destribution.
on other side, other group uses same system, same adventures, same character. however, they add history to their characters, invent and role-play manerisms. most of the gameplay consists of non-combat interaction and character development. also, gamemaster tweaks and wings whenever needs it.
No, again it is the fundemantal design of the tabletop RPG that allows this freedom.
Choosing what ride to go on next, or stand around talking if you prefer, in the grounds of the themepark dosent make it a sandbox.
Themepark isnt the same thing as linear, though many think it is because modern themeparks are built in a very linear way (Rift for example). Good themeparks, like VG, still offer choice, and lots of it, but again choice about which ride to go on and in what order dosent make it a sandbox.
I play an MMORPG like a proper RPG table top. It is MY decision to fish, to visit a town or to do any activity.
yes, and you have that freedom due to the fundemental design and nature of tabletop RPGs. I have said this.
If it is not available in game, I craft something else. Do you think EVERYTHING is available in EVE.? Yeah ? Well I like to craft me some boots ...Ooops.
What's the problem ?
problem? Sorry, i dont really get your last point or see any problem... elaborate?
Calling a game a sanbox or a themepark is often simplifying things.
It should realle be a scale from 1-100 where one have only pre made content (no crafting, no nothing) and 100 is where players make everything themselves, quests, their clothes and weapons, everything. They just get a character dressed in a rag and have to collect and make everything, similar to Minecraft.
No, again it is the fundemantal design of the tabletop RPG that allows this freedom.
Choosing what ride to go on next, or stand around talking if you prefer, in the grounds of the themepark dosent make it a sandbox.
Themepark isnt the same thing as linear, though many think it is because modern themeparks are built in a very linear way (Rift for example). Good themeparks, like VG, still offer choice, and lots of it, but again choice about which ride to go on and in what order dosent make it a sandbox.
heh. are you aware that there are people that play only official adventures for specific table-top RPG system?
yes, I have been tabletop gaming for over 25 years.
they use pre-built characters. they ignore character background and are interested only in abilities and equipement. most of their gameplay consists of combat and loot destribution.
on other side, other group uses same system, same adventures, same character. however, they add history to their characters, invent and role-play manerisms. most of the gameplay consists of non-combat interaction and character development. also, gamemaster tweaks and wings whenever needs it.
is the game they play a sandbox or themepark?
That some choose to limit themselves within it dosent change the nature of it's design.
the game is obviously sandbox, because it allows the freedom to do so much more by it very nature.
I can choose to play the economy game in about any other MMO I can think off. Actually people are doing this.
yes, 'playing the economy' is a ride.
I personally play for PvP achievements in WOW, independant of levels, independant of end game for the most part.
yes, you prefer the achievements ride to the others.
And indeed I even have a character that simply enjoys fishing for rare fish and fishing titles ...
You character dosent enjoy anything
But yes, on this character you like to go on the fishing ride.
I can do that in all other MMO's (or similar activities). It is not that if you have 300 rides you can(t invent 3000 other rides with ease.
In all your examples you have chosen to go on rides, with maybe only the economy aspect having a wider impact on the world.
But I have already stated that many themeparks have sandbox elements, and this is a good example of that.
That's the player: HE decides his proper sandbox.
No, sandboxes are defined by the systems the dev chooses to implement.
Like I keep saying, linear isnt the same as themepark... no one is sugessting it is. Going to a good themepark involves lots of choices, even in the real world.
It dosent make it a sandbox. You are still emtertained, rather then entertaining yourself.
Systems, systems, all big words but nothing behind it.
My question was : can you make boots in EVE ? No ? Discussion closed.
In fact you only proved my points totally.
it is the player WHO decides how he wants to play HIS game.
You can't deny me to play my game the way I want to play it. And it is up to me what I find fun/
Fishing and making money out of the economy with crafting is fun for X, so he plays the game totally different and NON liniair as opposed to Y who twinks at 19 and decides to pick flowers.
And by going for professions dude I DO help all of the community with hundreds of items that help other players.
I can choose to play the economy game in about any other MMO I can think off. Actually people are doing this.
yes, 'playing the economy' is a ride.
I personally play for PvP achievements in WOW, independant of levels, independant of end game for the most part.
yes, you prefer the achievements ride to the others.
And indeed I even have a character that simply enjoys fishing for rare fish and fishing titles ...
You character dosent enjoy anything
But yes, on this character you like to go on the fishing ride.
I can do that in all other MMO's (or similar activities). It is not that if you have 300 rides you can(t invent 3000 other rides with ease.
In all your examples you have chosen to go on rides, with maybe only the economy aspect having a wider impact on the world.
But I have already stated that many themeparks have sandbox elements, and this is a good example of that.
That's the player: HE decides his proper sandbox.
No, sandboxes are defined by the systems the dev chooses to implement.
Like I keep saying, linear isnt the same as themepark... no one is sugessting it is. Going to a good themepark involves lots of choices, even in the real world.
It dosent make it a sandbox. You are still emtertained, rather then entertaining yourself.
Systems, systems, all big words but nothing behind it.
Lets maybe try to keep this civil? we are just talking about games
My question was : can you make boots in EVE ? No ? Discussion closed.
How is the discussion closed? I am still at a loss at what your even trying to discuss with this example... Please elaborate?
In fact you only proved my points totally.
it is the player WHO decides how he wants to play HIS game.
No, like I have already said your confusing linear play with themepark. Themeparks still allow choices within their scope as themeparks.
You can't deny me to play my game the way I want to play it. And it is up to me what I find fun/
No one is talking about denying anything... or trying to dictate what yu should find fun
Fishing and making money out of the economy with crafting is fun for X, so he plays the game totally different and NON liniair as opposed to Y who twinks at 19 and decides to pick flowers.
yes, I have already said linear play isnt by definition part of a themepark...
That some choose to limit themselves within it dosent change the nature of it's design.
the game is obviously sandbox, because it allows the freedom to do so much more by it very nature.
i rest my case
On what grounds?
By agreeing that any given game is defined is by it's fundemental system design, no matter what the players choose to do within it?
because thats what i am saying.
look, getting back to MMORPGs, which are a very different animal to tabletop games and what this thread is about, it dosent matter if a player stands around all day in Rift roleplaying in chat... that dosent make the game a sandbox. it means he is just roleplaying in a themepark.
it is the same as wearing elf ears when you go to Disneyland and telling everyone you meet your an elf... you don't change Disneyland by doing it (you just get some funny looks). Disneyland is still what it is built to be.
heh. are you aware that there are people that play only official adventures for specific table-top RPG system? also, they use pre-built characters. they ignore character background and are interested only in abilities and equipement. most of their gameplay consists of combat and loot destribution.
on other side, other group uses same system, same adventures, same character. however, they add history to their characters, invent and role-play manerisms. most of the gameplay consists of non-combat interaction and character development. also, gamemaster tweaks and wings whenever needs it.
is the game they play a sandbox or themepark?
Yes, but in my 25 years of roleplaying the only time except pre made convention adventures I ever been part of a game with pre made characters were in the Warhammer campaign "The enemy within" (still great stuff) and the only reason for that is that I GMed and forced my players to use a pre made character.
This is really rare.
In fact in most P&P games beside D&D is gear really not important. You play with the same sword and armor for the entire campaign. While as a sword fanatic myself (own a really nice handmade one and some antique stuff) I still have to say that it is the hand swinging it that is importnat. The quality of the swords mainly matters if you have 2 equally good fighter and one of the swords is really crappy balanced. Or if it is so crappy you break it.
Still, the game you describes can be either way. If the GM rail road the players instead of letting them do their own choices it is a themepark. Sandboxes is about freedom and that goes both for character design and what you actually do when you play.
Some P&P GMs are forcing their groups to always do as his adventure say and that is no sandbox, but those GMs often have hard to get groups to play with. The main advantage to P&P compared to MMOs are usually total freedom, you can never make a MMO like that, at least not until you can connect your brain to the game directly.
The problem with "Themepark" / "Sandbox" definition is that it was re-apropriated from singleplayer games, it doesn't really fit MMOs at all.
It was used to describe games with open worlds (for example Oblivion) versus games with more linear design (like DragonAge for example). Now when you try applying this definition to MMO games, every single one is a sandbox, even WOW has a world much more open than any single-player game.
The problem with "Themepark" / "Sandbox" definition is that it was re-apropriated from singleplayer games, it doesn't really fit MMOs at all.
It was used to describe games with open worlds (for example Oblivion) versus games with more linear design (like DragonAge for example). Now when you try applying this definition to MMO games, every single one is a sandbox, even WOW has a world much more open than any single-player game.
We need different terms to talk about MMOs.
I agree with your point, but I would say the terms were taken from other games even before they were used single player RPGs. Sid Meier talked a lot about sandbox gaming design for instance.
But yes, we probably do need different terms for these games, but good luck in getting people to use them at this stage
Comments
Sandbox MMORPG = a simulated environment (virtual world) where players create characters and then play out their personal storyline.
Themepark MMORPG = a game where players create characters and then experience storyline as dictated by design.
The blur is that some designs, by accident or intent, try to fall in between these two.
You honestly don't understand the differences in play models between, say, Love and Rift?
For me the difference is easy. Just look at their names. A themepark like 6-flags is place where you go and ride rides that the owners of the park have designed to be exciting, interesting, and the same every time. Where as a sandbox you go with your tool and build what ever you think of, how much fun you have is up to you, not everyone is going to have the same amount of fun or even do similar thing. Once your done people know that you have been there and/or that was your castle.
In game terms Themeparks are really really easy to define. Set choices for character look, set class choices, ability given at set levels, battlegrounds that no real point other then getting pvp money, quests with only do or don't do options, etc..
Sandboxes are harder in game terms but basically their are two groups. First options allowing someone's character X to be different from someone else character Y. These range from lots of classes, talent trees, more options at character creation, armor dyes, crafting options, etc. This group is like sandbox light, most themepark games try to have some of this, but they tend to use very basic versions of these. The other group is affecting the world putting down bases, houses, winning areas for faction X or guild X, etc... For me this group of abilities really defines a sandbox game to me, the ability to make a mark on the world.
Personally I don't get why FFA pvp + full loot = sandbox, to me that just makes it a pvp heavy game. If you take wow and give it FFA pvp + full loot it would not be a sandbox game to me.
I havn't found a good sandbox since SWG. I know alot of sandboxers like Eve but I just can't bring my self to play the game as I hate the combat.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
ideally, sandbox has all the tools, but no goals. players make their own goals.
theme park has goals. player is there to complete them.
no game is pure one or the other. all games are at least a bit of sandbox, since you can define your own goals, even in WOW. and again, all games are at least a bit of theme park, as they are limited in scope and run on limited resources, and can only provide limited number of possible outcomes.
in EVE, there are people that only do missions, which are classic theme-park on rails.
in WOW, there are people that only role-play, which is effectively ultimate sandbox.
so, it's really not what you play. it's how you play it.
Wtf its not the gamer that difine a game, its the design. You just are mixing things up. You can put all the rp freak in WOW and shake it all you want the game is a themepark. You can put all the kids in UO and have them go pve all day with their dragon to get rich, it won't make Uo a themepark. Its not the player that define a game, but its design. People are just mixing things.
You can ride this korean girl car like a F1 driver all you want it won't make it a sport car, now you could feel your are driving sportly, but this is where it end up.
While I agree with you that he is genrally wrong Req, Spinner is right in that very few games are pure examples of one or the other.
This isnt a bad thing imo, very few people can handle a pure sandbox... they would log in and just not know what to do with themselves. They would complain a 'lack of content', 'being lost', and having 'no direction'. If I was to build a sandbox I would probably incorperate some themepark elements in order to help the (majority) of MMOers that simply arnt used to the model.
Even a new sandbox game like Arche Age has to recognise this in it's design tbh. Like I say, themepark mechanics are not by defintion bad, it's down to how heavily they are used and how much freedom and self determination they take from the player.
No he's right.
Some games give less tools, other games give more tools in either game but ... it is the player who decides WHAT, HOW and WHEN he wants to ... play.
Seriously this is about playing a game and deciding what you want to do: craft, pve, pvp, commerce,...
All MMO's go back to the 4 cppc basic elements above. Every single one of them.
have you ever free-form role-played? i mean, table-top with other people? a free-form role-play is ultimate sanbox experience. you can do ANYTHING. trust me, there will NEVER be a MMO with mechanics that come even close to it. except, what is there to stop you to role-play in any online game with chat option? others don't agree? so what? it's your fun. and if you can find others that want to go along, the better.
it IS players that define game, not design. as long as you can find enough reasons to play, who's to stop you from slaying things and loot stuff? or shooting stuff just because they make explosions, even if there's no other tanglible reward for it?
in a way, if you do only what game or others tell you to do, you are playing themepark, regardless of what game you play.
and if you do what you like, regardless of whatever game or anyone else tells you to do, you are playing a sandbox.
to be honest, it's game devs that "play" a true sandbox. they are making something that wasn't there before (even if it just a clone). most of the players are just along for a ride, not much different that reading a book.
Have to disagree.
You are getting confused with linear and themepark, but like I have explined they are not the same thing.
Having the choice of which ride to go on next isnt the same as being a sandbox.
UO:
- World PvP with Full Loot
-World PvE
-Crafting
All those 3 elements are bound together, you are kinda forced to play all of them to have fun.
You won't be able to PvP if you don't do PvE or Crafting in order to have decent gear.
You can't just choose to PvE because the world PvP won't allow you to be safe anywhere so you need to be able to PvP even if it's not your favourite style.
Crafting, although you aqre not strictly forced to do it, it gives you great advantages both in PvP and PvE if you choose to do so.
The sandbox element is the fact that you can mix those 3 elements to various degrees, attuning them to your own play style, without following a certain path (Non Linear)
WoW:
- Battlegrounds
-Arenas
-Crafting
-Dungeons
-Raids
-Questing
-PvP servers
-PVE servers
WoW is a collection of mini games, exacly like a theme park.
In Wow you can pick your "ride" and have fun just with the ride you choose, without caring about the otthers and still have fun.
Exactly like in a real theme park, you are not forced to try everrything, you can just stick with the ride that gives you more fun.
That's the difference between Sandbox and Themepar MMOs.
I can choose to play the economy game in about any other MMO I can think off. Actually people are doing this.
I personally play for PvP achievements in WOW, independant of levels, independant of end game for the most part.
And indeed I even have a character that simply enjoys fishing for rare fish and fishing titles ...
I can do that in all other MMO's (or similar activities). It is not that if you have 300 rides you can't invent 3000 other rides with ease.
That's the player: HE decides his proper sandbox.
No, again it is the fundemantal design of the tabletop RPG that allows this freedom.
Choosing what ride to go on next, or stand around talking if you prefer, in the grounds of the themepark dosent make it a sandbox.
Themepark isnt the same thing as linear, though many think it is because modern themeparks are built in a very linear way (Rift for example). Good themeparks, like VG, still offer choice, and lots of it, but again choice about which ride to go on and in what order dosent make it a sandbox.
I play an MMORPG like a proper RPG table top. It is MY decision to fish, to visit a town or to do any activity.
I like to craft a flying carpet? So I craft a flying carpet.
If it is not available in game, I craft something else. Do you think EVERYTHING is available in EVE.? Yeah ? Well I like to craft me some boots ...Ooops.
What's the problem ?
heh. are you aware that there are people that play only official adventures for specific table-top RPG system? also, they use pre-built characters. they ignore character background and are interested only in abilities and equipement. most of their gameplay consists of combat and loot destribution.
on other side, other group uses same system, same adventures, same character. however, they add history to their characters, invent and role-play manerisms. most of the gameplay consists of non-combat interaction and character development. also, gamemaster tweaks and wings whenever needs it.
is the game they play a sandbox or themepark?
Calling a game a sanbox or a themepark is often simplifying things.
It should realle be a scale from 1-100 where one have only pre made content (no crafting, no nothing) and 100 is where players make everything themselves, quests, their clothes and weapons, everything. They just get a character dressed in a rag and have to collect and make everything, similar to Minecraft.
Few games are extreme enough to be a 1 or a 100.
Lets call it Freedom value or something...
Systems, systems, all big words but nothing behind it.
My question was : can you make boots in EVE ? No ? Discussion closed.
In fact you only proved my points totally.
it is the player WHO decides how he wants to play HIS game.
You can't deny me to play my game the way I want to play it. And it is up to me what I find fun/
Fishing and making money out of the economy with crafting is fun for X, so he plays the game totally different and NON liniair as opposed to Y who twinks at 19 and decides to pick flowers.
And by going for professions dude I DO help all of the community with hundreds of items that help other players.
i rest my case
On what grounds?
By agreeing that any given game is defined is by it's fundemental system design, no matter what the players choose to do within it?
because thats what i am saying.
look, getting back to MMORPGs, which are a very different animal to tabletop games and what this thread is about, it dosent matter if a player stands around all day in Rift roleplaying in chat... that dosent make the game a sandbox. it means he is just roleplaying in a themepark.
it is the same as wearing elf ears when you go to Disneyland and telling everyone you meet your an elf... you don't change Disneyland by doing it (you just get some funny looks). Disneyland is still what it is built to be.
Yes, but in my 25 years of roleplaying the only time except pre made convention adventures I ever been part of a game with pre made characters were in the Warhammer campaign "The enemy within" (still great stuff) and the only reason for that is that I GMed and forced my players to use a pre made character.
This is really rare.
In fact in most P&P games beside D&D is gear really not important. You play with the same sword and armor for the entire campaign. While as a sword fanatic myself (own a really nice handmade one and some antique stuff) I still have to say that it is the hand swinging it that is importnat. The quality of the swords mainly matters if you have 2 equally good fighter and one of the swords is really crappy balanced. Or if it is so crappy you break it.
Still, the game you describes can be either way. If the GM rail road the players instead of letting them do their own choices it is a themepark. Sandboxes is about freedom and that goes both for character design and what you actually do when you play.
Some P&P GMs are forcing their groups to always do as his adventure say and that is no sandbox, but those GMs often have hard to get groups to play with. The main advantage to P&P compared to MMOs are usually total freedom, you can never make a MMO like that, at least not until you can connect your brain to the game directly.
The problem with "Themepark" / "Sandbox" definition is that it was re-apropriated from singleplayer games, it doesn't really fit MMOs at all.
It was used to describe games with open worlds (for example Oblivion) versus games with more linear design (like DragonAge for example). Now when you try applying this definition to MMO games, every single one is a sandbox, even WOW has a world much more open than any single-player game.
We need different terms to talk about MMOs.
I agree with your point, but I would say the terms were taken from other games even before they were used single player RPGs. Sid Meier talked a lot about sandbox gaming design for instance.
But yes, we probably do need different terms for these games, but good luck in getting people to use them at this stage