I'm amused right now because I posed a reality based on the actual way that MMOs are developed, and progressed over their life spam, and the only counter arguments I've seen so far are: one post that insulted me, one post that made a statement about truth and then failed to back it and, finally, a post that made a sarcastic diatribe about how the Rift system works.
Says a lot about you people. Instead of having a reasonable conversation about the issue at hand, I posed a point and you all just got on your soapboxes and trolled.
You sir seem to be to be the one that is trolling. Are you trying to get someone to lash back at you? Please give me a statement of what you think about MMO's in 1 or 2 sentences, and I'd be happy to discuss it with you.
I've mentioned it before on these forums but I think the best way to solve any concerns about the soul system would be to allow cross class somehow.. such as a warrior having the bard soul as well, for example. I'm not saying full access, but just some way of making that warrior/mage or reaver/ranger.
I agree Aovannor, this would be a great game, but don't you think this would be overwhelming for new players, and for those that really don't like to think a lot when they are playing the game?
You know why some people hate this game? Because they get the feeling of been there done that. I would say up to about level 12-15, the game is very good for entry level gamers. They did this on purpose. Some just don't realize the early levels are really to help people learn about MMOs and get comfortable. Those that have done MMOs before, it's like going back to a beginners class. After level 15 the game picks up significantly and that's were customizing the soul system comes into play because you have more points to spend.
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
You know why some people hate this game? Because they get the feeling of been there done that. I would say up to about level 12-15, the game is very good for entry level gamers. They did this on purpose. Some just don't realize the early levels are really to help people learn about MMOs and get comfortable. Those that have done MMOs before, it's like going back to a beginners class. After level 15 the game picks up significantly and that's were customizing the soul system comes into play because you have more points to spend.
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
I read most of it, but it seems to wander a bit. The thing is you're making a choice/calculation on one build/role. You have up to four roles in the game. That means you will calculate what the best PvP build is. You will calculate what the best group build is. You will calculate what the best solo build is, etc.
Check out the Warrior video at game trailers. Those builds they are showing are expamples of what you can be. The best thing is you can be any of those builds with one character, just switch your role out of combat and you have a new build.
Thanks for the feedback Watchwatcha. I do think that I tried to cover a bit too much in one post I agree with you that there are going to be calculations for each class and each role that class can do. However, what I was trying to emphasize is that we take these calculations as the word of God, infallible. That's not even close to what happens in reality. The theory crafter's out there hold constant for so many variables when they are doing their calculations that it really can't be used in game as the one and only possible build.
The reason you can't always trust the "standard build" is two fold. First, the build is based on calculations done by Theory crafter's that are doing these calculations in theoretical scenarios and not in real time... sometimes theory doesn't mix with reality... There are unknown variable that influence the character in which case the "optimal build" they are using isn't the "optimal build" they should be using. In a world where there is constant change and constant fluctuation there isn't going to be one "optimal DPS build" for all DPS scenarios. There may be a build that is good to use in a particular fight or situation, but even then the "optimal build" won't be optimal for a good 2-3 years until after the game is released.
The reason that a "optimal DPS build" can't be assured to be optimal is because there is a chance that the original calculation is wrong... it's missing some variable or some variation that isn't accounted for... Especially in the Soul tree used In rift, between the branches, the roots, and the 8 classes there is a lot more possibilities that all need to be empirically tested before a "optimal build" can be formulated. And even when it is formulated there's usually something that the original statistician didn't account for! So The old "optimal build" is modified to a new "optimal build" again and again. especially when you have patches that change around the builds. This is why the soul tree is a continuously unsolvable puzzle for the logical statisticians...
Ultimately there really isn't any "optimal build" as an abstract entity for every role. The best role is dependent on the individual and their analysis of the situation at hand, the knowledge of their tree, and the level of their skill in properly executing that knowledge. The optimal build is a fabrication produced by the theory crafter's and is flawed by it's very nature upon which it was conceived.
I agree. For example on another character I went Void Knight/Beastmaster and it was awesome
Given the choice, I would pick the Anarchy Online's system over Aion's regarding character progression. The first consisted of endless calculations not only of your character but also of every other classe's buffs and augmentations. Yes, you could screw your character up and that was at the time of no respec, which meant rerolling and starting over.
Now with respecs what's the excuse not to experiment exactly? And why would anyone want to get this little freedom to customise the core of our characters taken away? Do we really want to end up playing Diablo the MMO, where only the gear we equip makes us different from each other?
Is this a hidden agenta between PvPers (who want as little freedom as possible) and PvEers (who want as much diversity as possible)?
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Is this a hidden agenta between PvPers (who want as little freedom as possible) and PvEers (who want as much diversity as possible)?
I think that's a great question. It would seem like there would be a conflict between the competitive drive of always wanting to win by the PvPers, and thus they strive for as even of a playing field as they can get so that no one get's the advantage. and the continual improvement to gear and stats that the PvE community wants so that they can fight bigger foes and show off their shiny gear. These two forces do seem to be at odd.
Maybe that's why we are seeing games like http://www.bloodlinechampions.com/ . This is a game that provides a fully balanced PvP scenario, and it's a great game. However, here's something interesting... Most people will play this game for a month or two and then give it up, simply because they lose interest. It's not as fun continually playing on a equal field...
I speculate that deep down all PvPers want a advantage... They want to have an advantage, but at the same time don't want anyone else to have that advantage... and that advantage could be glitches, bots, hacks, or increased stats... Since most of these are illegal most of the PvP community seeks to increase their stats above all others. That my friend translates to better gear, which is exactly what the PvE people want. Everyone wants to be special
Sorry if I misinterpreted your question. I interpreted "little freedom as possible" as an equal playing field for PvPers, and "as much diversity as possible" as the drive to always have greater challenges and foes than the current one. Please let me know if you had a different meaning
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Yeh, I understand that.. I was suggesting that opening up the souls across classes, in some way, would help provide more options and soul combinations for hardcore players. You need to read my earlier posts, I was saying that hardcore players who want the cookie cutter builds will, eventually, only have 4 builds (including different 'roles') to choose from; Warrior, Cleric, Scout or Mage. Allowing cross class souls would provide much more cookie cutter builds and choice.
Basicaly, down the line somewhere the best way to play a Warrior class will be decided (as in souls, roles and point distribution choices). From that point on most Warriors will use that build and all its roles, this will make most warriors the same. I see this as a shortcoming for the game.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Is this a hidden agenta between PvPers (who want as little freedom as possible) and PvEers (who want as much diversity as possible)?
I think that's a great question. It would seem like there would be a conflict between the competitive drive of always wanting to win by the PvPers, and thus they strive for as even of a playing field as they can get so that no one get's the advantage. and the continual improvement to gear and stats that the PvE community wants so that they can fight bigger foes and show off their shiny gear. These two forces do seem to be at odd.
Maybe that's why we are seeing games like http://www.bloodlinechampions.com/ . This is a game that provides a fully balanced PvP scenario, and it's a great game. However, here's something interesting... Most people will play this game for a month or two and then give it up, simply because they lose interest. It's not as fun continually playing on a equal field...
I speculate that deep down all PvPers want a advantage... They want to have an advantage, but at the same time don't want anyone else to have that advantage... and that advantage could be glitches, bots, hacks, or increased stats... Since most of these are illegal most of the PvP community seeks to increase their stats above all others. That my friend translates to better gear, which is exactly what the PvE people want. Everyone wants to be special
Sorry if I misinterpreted your question. I interpreted "little freedom as possible" as an equal playing field for PvPers, and "as much diversity as possible" as the drive to always have greater challenges and foes than the current one. Please let me know if you had a different meaning
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Yeh, I understand that.. I was suggesting that opening up the souls across classes, in some way, would help provide more options and soul combinations for hardcore players. You need to read my earlier posts, I was saying that hardcore players who want the cookie cutter builds will, eventually, only have 4 builds (including different 'roles') to choose from; Warrior, Cleric, Scout or Mage. Allowing cross class souls would provide much more cookie cutter builds and choice.
Basicaly, down the line somewhere the best way to play a Warrior class will be decided (as in souls, roles and point distribution choices). From that point on most Warriors will use that build and all its roles, this will make most warriors the same. I see this as a shortcoming for the game.
Overall, the main problem here is that all Warriors can in theory get ALL the Warrior souls.. that makes all Warriors the same. A limit on the amount of souls a character can get would be another way around this.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Yeh, I understand that.. I was suggesting that opening up the souls across classes, in some way, would help provide more options and soul combinations for hardcore players. You need to read my earlier posts, I was saying that hardcore players who want the cookie cutter builds will, eventually, only have 4 builds (including different 'roles') to choose from; Warrior, Cleric, Scout or Mage. Allowing cross class souls would provide much more cookie cutter builds and choice.
Basicaly, down the line somewhere the best way to play a Warrior class will be decided (as in souls, roles and point distribution choices). From that point on most Warriors will use that build and all its roles, this will make most warriors the same. I see this as a shortcoming for the game.
Right and I'm telling you that the cookie cutter build isn't going to happen. It might in PvP, but it won't in PvE. People are going to play what they want to play. This community isn't going that way. People like and want options. Being able to have four roles helps to insure that. There's options for people whom want the theme of playing a warrior/mage for example. Now if you don't care about that and only want all the cool/powerful abilities of certain roles, tough. Because what you are suggesting will actually help cause people to become cookie cutter. The identity of the callings will become obsolete.
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Yeh, I understand that.. I was suggesting that opening up the souls across classes, in some way, would help provide more options and soul combinations for hardcore players. You need to read my earlier posts, I was saying that hardcore players who want the cookie cutter builds will, eventually, only have 4 builds (including different 'roles') to choose from; Warrior, Cleric, Scout or Mage. Allowing cross class souls would provide much more cookie cutter builds and choice.
Basicaly, down the line somewhere the best way to play a Warrior class will be decided (as in souls, roles and point distribution choices). From that point on most Warriors will use that build and all its roles, this will make most warriors the same. I see this as a shortcoming for the game.
Overall, the main problem here is that all Warriors can in theory get ALL the Warrior souls.. that makes all Warriors the same. A limit on the amount of souls a character can get would be another way around this.
The souls are pretty unique. They're some duplicating abilities and I would like that addressed.
I'm glad everyone here realises that there will be cookie cutter specs that everyone is going to use, and the developers at Trion will actively push players to use, because so many people I have spoken to seem to be under the impression that this isn't the case.
So here is my question: Why, if there are going to be a handful of builds that you can actually use, give players the choice in the first place? Why spend X amount of time developing a system that is in all reality a gimmick and nothing more? I mean, the system Trion have developed for Rift is quite large, but there is no real freedom, so why is there a need for the system in the first place? I just don't understand it. I don't understand why you'd waste time on something with as much scope as the system in Rift, when in reality... there is no actual scope at all.
I'm not sure I'm fully grasping what you're trying to say Infalible. Could you elaborate a bit more on the point that there is no actual scope at all. It sounds like an intriguing thought.
My point is that the system in place in Rift creates the illusion of choice, but that there is - in reality - no real choice at all. Trion will balance the game so that there are a handful of specs suitable for use, and will probably actively push players into using the specs through various means. For example, if a group of players discover a spec that isn't one of the few specs Trion would like people to use, it stands to reason that Trion would then nerf that spec in such a way that it forces people away from it. I'm not saying that is a bad thing; it is the done thing because it makes balancing a much, much, much easier task.
However the developers spent a great deal of time creating a system that gives that illusion of choice in teh first place. My question it: why bother? The illusion is promptly smashed, and no one who gets to end game is going to be under the impression that there actually is a lot of scope for choice, so why spend the time developing that system, when that system is - in truth - an illusion?
Why spend so much time developing something that makes the game seem unique, when in fact there is no real difference between how class specs will be set up in Rift to World of Warcraft, for example. Ultimately, when you reomove that illusion that Trion have created, the system is almost identicle. I just don't see why they spent so much time on it; it really wasn't needed.
Ok lets play your game and compare this directly to World of Warcraft.
WoW with one character at endgame example Druid class.
You have a choice of damage dealer/tank......healer....nuker.
You have to choose between 2 rolls and you can switch out of combat between these.
You can go respec for money that takes a trip to town.
Rift with one character at endgame example cleric calling (class)
You have the choice of support class, offtank, healer, damage dealer, nuker, nuker healer....or a mix of any of those.
You have to choose between 4 rolls and you can switch out of combat between these.
You can go respec for money that takes a trip to town
The extra 2 rolls you can play at any time is huge and should not be discounted. Also in World of Warcraft there are only 10 character choices. The Druid is the most dramatic class in WoW since it can do 3 very different rolls but many of the 10 classes in WoW don't have that dramatic of difference between them. Just for fun lets say that WoW did have 3 distinct playstyles for every one of it's 10 classes that is 33 total types of character.
If you compare that to Rift....you can get 35 distinct playstyles from just one character and you can play 4 of those 35 any time you want to.
Maybe you haven't really looked into the depth offered in the several souls and callings enuff. I know I have and it all looks great.
Added.....Trion is not really planning of Nerfing....they plan on letting players balance builds against other builds for PvP and for PvE the balance isn't as big an issue
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Aovannor I see what your saying, and while hypothetically it would be great if every soul was balanced to which there would be no one stronger combination, but that seems very difficult to balance... and it almost seems like a house of cards that is stacked to high.
There is already a delicate balance between most classes in MMO's those classes have restrictions on them to balance out their strength.. In order to do your idea where there is only one class with 24+ souls to choose from you would have to have a universal armor that everyone used. Since armor is currently used as the rock, paper, scissors mechanism that makes the class balance go around and around. In order to implement your idea you would have to have some armor that everyone used.. I suppose you could do this...
Let me ask you with such a high chance to cause imbalance what would be the benefits of such a system?
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Yeh, I understand that.. I was suggesting that opening up the souls across classes, in some way, would help provide more options and soul combinations for hardcore players. You need to read my earlier posts, I was saying that hardcore players who want the cookie cutter builds will, eventually, only have 4 builds (including different 'roles') to choose from; Warrior, Cleric, Scout or Mage. Allowing cross class souls would provide much more cookie cutter builds and choice.
Basicaly, down the line somewhere the best way to play a Warrior class will be decided (as in souls, roles and point distribution choices). From that point on most Warriors will use that build and all its roles, this will make most warriors the same. I see this as a shortcoming for the game.
Right and I'm telling you that the cookie cutter build isn't going to happen. It might in PvP, but it won't in PvE. People are going to play what they want to play. This community isn't going that way. People like and want options. Being able to have four roles helps to insure that. There's options for people whom want the theme of playing a warrior/mage for example. Now if you don't care about that and only want all the cool/powerful abilities of certain roles, tough. Because what you are suggesting will actually help cause people to become cookie cutter. The identity of the callings will become obsolete.
It depends on how cross class souls were handled, say a limit of 2 choices per character for example, but it would certainly aid those that have a certain playstyle in mind anyway (those that want to "play what they want to play").
Cookie Cutters will definately be developed over time, not realising that is pretty naive. When it does happen none of the customizion in the game will matter anymore (for the majority of long term players) and the options for a viable character will be very limited. This is because each class type can choose from ALL the options. A flavour of the month build will be present for each of the four callings and each of the four callings will be able to switch to that new build every single month... every single player will have that option. Get nerfed? Doesn't matter in Rift because you can change to the new or previously second best viable option. Balancing is going to be almost impossible unless something is changed.
Now, I'm not a hardcore player (I feel raiding is pretty pointless unless something comes after it), but I ain't going to play any MMO without a viable build because either 1. the difficulty of the game is balanced around viable builds or 2. the viable builds keep changing based of the difficulty of the game. This is the nature of MMO's. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's how it is.
As for what the community is going to be like? We can only wait and see what happens and who sticks around.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Aovannor I see what your saying, and while hypothetically it would be great if every soul was balanced to which there would be no one stronger combination, but that seems very difficult to balance... and it almost seems like a house of cards that is stacked to high.
There is already a delicate balance between most classes in MMO's those classes have restrictions on them to balance out their strength.. In order to do your idea where there is only one class with 24+ souls to choose from you would have to have a universal armor that everyone used. Since armor is currently used as the rock, paper, scissors mechanism that makes the class balance go around and around. In order to implement your idea you would have to have some armor that everyone used.. I suppose you could do this...
Let me ask you with such a high chance to cause imbalance what would be the benefits of such a system?
The system IS balanced by armor. If you give everyone the same armor abilities you would have to totally redo every class. The only benefit that would be achieved would be that you now have infinite class choice but if the classes had to be drastically tweaked and powers adjusted then I do not see the advantage to it at all. It's more fun having distinct builds and with armor limitations that you can plan other builds to combat. To much choice can be a bad thing. Plus it takes a very long time to try and class balance a system like that. Years.....
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Aovannor I see what your saying, and while hypothetically it would be great if every soul was balanced to which there would be no one stronger combination, but that seems very difficult to balance... and it almost seems like a house of cards that is stacked to high.
There is already a delicate balance between most classes in MMO's those classes have restrictions on them to balance out their strength.. In order to do your idea where there is only one class with 24+ souls to choose from you would have to have a universal armor that everyone used. Since armor is currently used as the rock, paper, scissors mechanism that makes the class balance go around and around. In order to implement your idea you would have to have some armor that everyone used.. I suppose you could do this...
Let me ask you with such a high chance to cause imbalance what would be the benefits of such a system?
I'm not in anyway suggesting that a player should have access to every soul in the game. Thats just been assumed. That would be an awful thing to have.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Aovannor I see what your saying, and while hypothetically it would be great if every soul was balanced to which there would be no one stronger combination, but that seems very difficult to balance... and it almost seems like a house of cards that is stacked to high.
There is already a delicate balance between most classes in MMO's those classes have restrictions on them to balance out their strength.. In order to do your idea where there is only one class with 24+ souls to choose from you would have to have a universal armor that everyone used. Since armor is currently used as the rock, paper, scissors mechanism that makes the class balance go around and around. In order to implement your idea you would have to have some armor that everyone used.. I suppose you could do this...
Let me ask you with such a high chance to cause imbalance what would be the benefits of such a system?
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Aovannor I see what your saying, and while hypothetically it would be great if every soul was balanced to which there would be no one stronger combination, but that seems very difficult to balance... and it almost seems like a house of cards that is stacked to high.
There is already a delicate balance between most classes in MMO's those classes have restrictions on them to balance out their strength.. In order to do your idea where there is only one class with 24+ souls to choose from you would have to have a universal armor that everyone used. Since armor is currently used as the rock, paper, scissors mechanism that makes the class balance go around and around. In order to implement your idea you would have to have some armor that everyone used.. I suppose you could do this...
Let me ask you with such a high chance to cause imbalance what would be the benefits of such a system?
He gets all the 'cool' abilities that he wants.
LOL, i havn't said I would rather all the souls were available to everyone. I said that cross calling souls should be handled in 'some way'. You're all getting the wrong end of the stick here.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
What was the point of saying that to me? I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
Aovannor I see what your saying, and while hypothetically it would be great if every soul was balanced to which there would be no one stronger combination, but that seems very difficult to balance... and it almost seems like a house of cards that is stacked to high.
There is already a delicate balance between most classes in MMO's those classes have restrictions on them to balance out their strength.. In order to do your idea where there is only one class with 24+ souls to choose from you would have to have a universal armor that everyone used. Since armor is currently used as the rock, paper, scissors mechanism that makes the class balance go around and around. In order to implement your idea you would have to have some armor that everyone used.. I suppose you could do this...
Let me ask you with such a high chance to cause imbalance what would be the benefits of such a system?
He gets all the 'cool' abilities that he wants.
LOL, i havn't said I would rather all the souls were available to everyone. I said that cross calling souls should be handled in 'some way'. You're all getting the wrong of the stick here.
hmm okay. well if you're talking about hybrid souls after release, I can see what you mean then. something in the future that allows selected abilities from different callings could work. Trion would be able to balance that way.
Comments
You sir seem to be to be the one that is trolling. Are you trying to get someone to lash back at you? Please give me a statement of what you think about MMO's in 1 or 2 sentences, and I'd be happy to discuss it with you.
You know why some people hate this game? Because they get the feeling of been there done that. I would say up to about level 12-15, the game is very good for entry level gamers. They did this on purpose. Some just don't realize the early levels are really to help people learn about MMOs and get comfortable. Those that have done MMOs before, it's like going back to a beginners class. After level 15 the game picks up significantly and that's were customizing the soul system comes into play because you have more points to spend.
For Aovannor you have a warrior/mage it's called Void Knight. For tank/ranger build you have Rift Stalker/Ranger.
Agree
I agree. For example on another character I went Void Knight/Beastmaster and it was awesome
Given the choice, I would pick the Anarchy Online's system over Aion's regarding character progression. The first consisted of endless calculations not only of your character but also of every other classe's buffs and augmentations. Yes, you could screw your character up and that was at the time of no respec, which meant rerolling and starting over.
Now with respecs what's the excuse not to experiment exactly? And why would anyone want to get this little freedom to customise the core of our characters taken away? Do we really want to end up playing Diablo the MMO, where only the gear we equip makes us different from each other?
Is this a hidden agenta between PvPers (who want as little freedom as possible) and PvEers (who want as much diversity as possible)?
I was suggesting being something like a Void Knight/Pyromancer, which is not the same as a void knight on its own. and a Rift Stalker doesn't play anything like a Reaver. You're totally missing the point. I'm not saying I want a Tank/Ranged DPS... I'm saying I want a warrior/mage.. 'meaning' a mixture of their abilities. Plate Armour and fire spells for example? even if they were just fire buffs added to weapons or armor.
I'm saying that they have alternates available to you that give similar play styles. There needs to be some balance. You can't have everything you want. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. /shrug
I think that's a great question. It would seem like there would be a conflict between the competitive drive of always wanting to win by the PvPers, and thus they strive for as even of a playing field as they can get so that no one get's the advantage. and the continual improvement to gear and stats that the PvE community wants so that they can fight bigger foes and show off their shiny gear. These two forces do seem to be at odd.
Maybe that's why we are seeing games like http://www.bloodlinechampions.com/ . This is a game that provides a fully balanced PvP scenario, and it's a great game. However, here's something interesting... Most people will play this game for a month or two and then give it up, simply because they lose interest. It's not as fun continually playing on a equal field...
I speculate that deep down all PvPers want a advantage... They want to have an advantage, but at the same time don't want anyone else to have that advantage... and that advantage could be glitches, bots, hacks, or increased stats... Since most of these are illegal most of the PvP community seeks to increase their stats above all others. That my friend translates to better gear, which is exactly what the PvE people want. Everyone wants to be special
Sorry if I misinterpreted your question. I interpreted "little freedom as possible" as an equal playing field for PvPers, and "as much diversity as possible" as the drive to always have greater challenges and foes than the current one. Please let me know if you had a different meaning
Yeh, I understand that.. I was suggesting that opening up the souls across classes, in some way, would help provide more options and soul combinations for hardcore players. You need to read my earlier posts, I was saying that hardcore players who want the cookie cutter builds will, eventually, only have 4 builds (including different 'roles') to choose from; Warrior, Cleric, Scout or Mage. Allowing cross class souls would provide much more cookie cutter builds and choice.
Basicaly, down the line somewhere the best way to play a Warrior class will be decided (as in souls, roles and point distribution choices). From that point on most Warriors will use that build and all its roles, this will make most warriors the same. I see this as a shortcoming for the game.
completely agree with this.
Overall, the main problem here is that all Warriors can in theory get ALL the Warrior souls.. that makes all Warriors the same. A limit on the amount of souls a character can get would be another way around this.
Right and I'm telling you that the cookie cutter build isn't going to happen. It might in PvP, but it won't in PvE. People are going to play what they want to play. This community isn't going that way. People like and want options. Being able to have four roles helps to insure that. There's options for people whom want the theme of playing a warrior/mage for example. Now if you don't care about that and only want all the cool/powerful abilities of certain roles, tough. Because what you are suggesting will actually help cause people to become cookie cutter. The identity of the callings will become obsolete.
The souls are pretty unique. They're some duplicating abilities and I would like that addressed.
Ok lets play your game and compare this directly to World of Warcraft.
WoW with one character at endgame example Druid class.
You have a choice of damage dealer/tank......healer....nuker.
You have to choose between 2 rolls and you can switch out of combat between these.
You can go respec for money that takes a trip to town.
Rift with one character at endgame example cleric calling (class)
You have the choice of support class, offtank, healer, damage dealer, nuker, nuker healer....or a mix of any of those.
You have to choose between 4 rolls and you can switch out of combat between these.
You can go respec for money that takes a trip to town
The extra 2 rolls you can play at any time is huge and should not be discounted. Also in World of Warcraft there are only 10 character choices. The Druid is the most dramatic class in WoW since it can do 3 very different rolls but many of the 10 classes in WoW don't have that dramatic of difference between them. Just for fun lets say that WoW did have 3 distinct playstyles for every one of it's 10 classes that is 33 total types of character.
If you compare that to Rift....you can get 35 distinct playstyles from just one character and you can play 4 of those 35 any time you want to.
Maybe you haven't really looked into the depth offered in the several souls and callings enuff. I know I have and it all looks great.
Added.....Trion is not really planning of Nerfing....they plan on letting players balance builds against other builds for PvP and for PvE the balance isn't as big an issue
Aovannor I see what your saying, and while hypothetically it would be great if every soul was balanced to which there would be no one stronger combination, but that seems very difficult to balance... and it almost seems like a house of cards that is stacked to high.
There is already a delicate balance between most classes in MMO's those classes have restrictions on them to balance out their strength.. In order to do your idea where there is only one class with 24+ souls to choose from you would have to have a universal armor that everyone used. Since armor is currently used as the rock, paper, scissors mechanism that makes the class balance go around and around. In order to implement your idea you would have to have some armor that everyone used.. I suppose you could do this...
Let me ask you with such a high chance to cause imbalance what would be the benefits of such a system?
It depends on how cross class souls were handled, say a limit of 2 choices per character for example, but it would certainly aid those that have a certain playstyle in mind anyway (those that want to "play what they want to play").
Cookie Cutters will definately be developed over time, not realising that is pretty naive. When it does happen none of the customizion in the game will matter anymore (for the majority of long term players) and the options for a viable character will be very limited. This is because each class type can choose from ALL the options. A flavour of the month build will be present for each of the four callings and each of the four callings will be able to switch to that new build every single month... every single player will have that option. Get nerfed? Doesn't matter in Rift because you can change to the new or previously second best viable option. Balancing is going to be almost impossible unless something is changed.
Now, I'm not a hardcore player (I feel raiding is pretty pointless unless something comes after it), but I ain't going to play any MMO without a viable build because either 1. the difficulty of the game is balanced around viable builds or 2. the viable builds keep changing based of the difficulty of the game. This is the nature of MMO's. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's how it is.
As for what the community is going to be like? We can only wait and see what happens and who sticks around.
The system IS balanced by armor. If you give everyone the same armor abilities you would have to totally redo every class. The only benefit that would be achieved would be that you now have infinite class choice but if the classes had to be drastically tweaked and powers adjusted then I do not see the advantage to it at all. It's more fun having distinct builds and with armor limitations that you can plan other builds to combat. To much choice can be a bad thing. Plus it takes a very long time to try and class balance a system like that. Years.....
I'm not in anyway suggesting that a player should have access to every soul in the game. Thats just been assumed. That would be an awful thing to have.
He gets all the 'cool' abilities that he wants.
Who decides that your opinion is supposed to be unbiased?
To me it looks clearly biased since the only annoying things you find in this game are not strictly related with the game itself.
An unbiased review usually list also some kind of negatives.
Too good is biased
Too bad is biased
You are in the first category
LOL, i havn't said I would rather all the souls were available to everyone. I said that cross calling souls should be handled in 'some way'. You're all getting the wrong end of the stick here.
He admitted that in a later post. I think he meant he was unbiased going into the game and Rift won him over.
That was a nice read, I thought I got alot out of that knowing very little about the game. Good job OP.
hmm okay. well if you're talking about hybrid souls after release, I can see what you mean then. something in the future that allows selected abilities from different callings could work. Trion would be able to balance that way.
You want mixxed review?
1 positive Rift is a great game and will be my game of choice for a while.
1 negative Rift is not Everquest Next and Rift doesn't take place on Antonica.
There ya go. an Unbiased review of Rift hehe