I believe all entertainment should leave its consumer better than he/she came. Nowadays though, entertainment exists to dumb down society so that they will except lower and lower quality things in life, whether its education , government, personal freedom, general discourse, we are beset on all sides by a consistent lowering of the caliber of things, while at the same time being propogandized to think we are advancing somehow, or worse that we are the best. Its the hype machine of this life, and entertainment is its primary tool. Despite life becoming more and more difficult and restricted, we in the states do little to escape our respective lots in life or transcend what the system would try to limit us to be, instead we flee to imaginary worlds to seek achievements of no meaning and bounty that doesn't exist hour after hour, day after day, year after year. What if instead of escape, we sought action? What if instead of exploring imaginary worlds we traversed this one? Would you maybe discover that the world is not what tv has said it is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfPkg8S4Fio
Gaming and entertainment has its place but it should be grassroots, its should reflect what the people want for themselves not what some corporate bigwigs want for us. We need to tell our own stories, and be rulers of our own minds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylhqasb1chI
Haha, the title alone was a prelude to comedy via misinformation and overzealotry of ethics.
Currently playing: No MMOs Played properly: WoW Tried: AoC, WAR, Aion, Darkfall Looking forward to: FFXIV, Earthrise, The Secret World, Guild Wars 2 (very much), Project Copernicus (and Mercury for that matter), Everquest and Planetside Next (finally a meaningful mmofps again) Wants to play in 2 years time if it survives from the subscriptions of fanatics and turns into the game with all features stated on the website: Mortal Online
Wolfy I am still trying to figure out what your argument is here. Apparently you think video games are "fake" entertainment, which are still entertaining but not in the same way as "real" entertainment? And then you think it's wrong that they cost money?
Wolfy I am still trying to figure out what your argument is here. Apparently you think video games are "fake" entertainment, which are still entertaining but not in the same way as "real" entertainment? And then you think it's wrong that they cost money?
Yes, Games are fake entertainment for most people.
Games generally make you feel you are better somewhow by achieving thinks or "winning" other opponents, while in truth everyone could do what they did required 0 skill to do so. So you give a person the feeling that he is good, that he is unique but in truth, he is just being fooled for his money and he i no better than anyone else. Thats a fake self confidence boost
Games give players the power of choice, the one that they dont have in real life so they can feel better again
I am "ok" with buying entairtenment but thats not the topic, the problem with games that cost money is that they are just fooling people and make them feel better while THEY ARE NOT ANY BETTER THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THEY PLAY THE GAME.
Its just a psychological trick
An example
A kid is raised in a huge rich house and he gets everything he wants and everyone tells him he is right in every of his choices. This kid has huge self confidence and believes he never does any mistakes and anyone who will say different is simply wrong. He lives in his own fake world believing that his is god while he is nothing more than another typical human(this is an overexxagerated example)
Also i am not talking about mmorpgs only, even though many people seemed to assume that. The majority of games(individualy not based on population or sold copies) that give that fake feeling is single player games. Mmos also give that feeling but its either more hidden or the other players get in your way of feeling better
Wolfy I am still trying to figure out what your argument is here. Apparently you think video games are "fake" entertainment, which are still entertaining but not in the same way as "real" entertainment? And then you think it's wrong that they cost money?
Yes, Games are fake entertainment for most people.
Games generally make you feel you are better somewhow by achieving thinks or "winning" other opponents, while in truth everyone could do what they did required 0 skill to do so. So you give a person the feeling that he is good, that he is unique but in truth, he is just being fooled for his money and he i no better than anyone else. Thats a fake self confidence boost
Games give players the power of choice, the one that they dont have in real life so they can feel better again
I am "ok" with buying entairtenment but thats not the topic, the problem with games that cost money is that they are just fooling people and make them feel better while THEY ARE NOT ANY BETTER THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THEY PLAY THE GAME.
Its just a psychological trick
An example
A kid is raised in a huge rich house and he gets everything he wants and everyone tells him he is right in every of his choices. This kid has huge self confidence and believes he never does any mistakes and anyone who will say different is simply wrong. He lives in his own fake world believing that his is god while he is nothing more than another typical human(this is an overexxagerated example)
I guess the concept of "fake entertainment" is what is in question here. for some, reading a book is "real entertainment", for some watching porn on their iphone is "real entertainment" and for the more extereme, jumping out of a perfectly working airplane at 17000 feet is "real entertainment":D... the question comes down to who or what decides is "real" entertainment for anyone/everyone? this is a question that religious people have been arguing for ages. what is "real" religion? or who is the "real" god/gods
just because a particular activity is NOT considered "real" entertaiment for YOU, doesn't mean it's not REAL entertainment for someone else. this is the internet age, so you might be better to keep an geocentric viewpoint in discussions rather then being so myopic in your definitions.
There is nothing bad about having fun, nothing dirty about wasting time, it is all very natural. As long as it is natural.
The contemporary omnipresent kytsch is wrong. Games that keep dragging on after they stopped being fun and after they showed you everything they could, are wrong. Business build on exploiting humans.
But you do not have to conduct business or make games in such way, not everyone does.
I guess the concept of "fake entertainment" is what is in question here. for some, reading a book is "real entertainment", for some watching porn on their iphone is "real entertainment" and for the more extereme, jumping out of a perfectly working airplane at 17000 feet is "real entertainment":D... the question comes down to who or what decides is "real" entertainment for anyone/everyone? this is a question that religious people have been arguing for ages. what is "real" religion? or who is the "real" god/gods
just because a particular activity is NOT considered "real" entertaiment for YOU, doesn't mean it's not REAL entertainment for someone else. this is the internet age, so you might be better to keep an geocentric viewpoint in discussions rather then being so myopic in your definitions.
Its psychology. A person doesnt have any real power in real life, he feels powerless. Then he goes play a game and is feeling better because he has the choice he doesnt have in real life. But at the end its a simple trick to make you feel the so called "fun"
The other is winning or achieving thinks that require 0 skill and even a 4 year old can do. Companies portrait those thinks as something that is really difficult and require skill but that only exists to make the player believe they actually achieved something. So a person after pressing a button he gets flashe graphics and gets "A NEW LEVEL OMG!! U ARE SO AWESUM" box feels better and believes he achieved something. This feeling is simply fake because it was simply created to create that sort of illusion and its also fake because EVERYONE can do it. Its nothing to be proud about, yet i have seen people feeling proud about thinks that they didnt even do...
Books, movies, shows might give you entairtainment and made you laught or have fun, but that does NOT make you feel any better about yourself or give you a fake self-confidence boost like games do.
Would you ever call chess a fake self confidence boost??? a game that is solely based on player skill? and the winner is the one that plays better thus is better than the other player. Today games are not games with achievements they are achievements inside games
Other example of fake achievement? cardgames. No matter how skilled you are there is ALWAYS a % of luck. Most people love to play luck based games because when they lose they dont say "omg i suck hard" they say "omg i have really bad luck". But when they win they feel like they won a chess match... Obvious difference is obvious(lets not get out of topic please, i used cardgames as an example, we are discussing the current generation of games like single player games and many online games like wow)
Its similar to the real life sports psychology, most people who watch sports only and never play them they simply do it so they can feel better. They have 0 self-confidence and most times are right(since psychology is very important, to the level it can heal someone if the person believes is fune), they need to find a way to feel important and succesful. that why humans join group most of the times. That is why many times you see sports watchers argue about their teams using the word "WE" instead of the word "THEY". It simply shows that they need to feel better even though its completely fake and is based on another persons acts
Other example of fake achievement? cardgames. No matter how skilled you are there is ALWAYS a % of luck. Most people love to play luck based games because when they lose they dont say "omg i suck hard" they say "omg i have really bad luck". But when they win they feel like they won a chess match... Obvious difference is obvious
Its similar to the real life sports psychology, most people who watch sports only and never play them they simply do it so they can feel better. They have 0 self-confidence and most times are right(since psychology is very important, to the level it can heal someone if the person believes is fune), they need to find a way to feel important and succesful.
You had me until this last part. Card games actually do take quite a bit of skill to be successful. The skills required are definitely different than playing Chess, but you can't simply sit down at a card table with professional poker players and expect to win any hands.
As to the "people who watch sports have 0 self confidence" comment. All I have to say to that is... What?
I don't personally watch sports because I find it boring. It was never something I got into. But, I know plenty of successful people who get enjoyment out of watching their home team play and are very passionate about "their" team.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I think the more ethical question to ask is not that gaming is wrong itself, everyone will try some form of entertainment at one point in time in thier life. No, the ethical question should be what we do in that form of entertainment, is it right or wrong. To me it is far more 'right' to sit through 10 hours of blackjack at the casino than spend that same 10 hours sitting at a computer simulating killing thousands of other people. Most, and everyone will agree I'm sure, most of the entertainment venues we have today involve some sort of visual debautery towards other human beings.
We have ruled out in our society the cruelty to animals which is all good and fine, I'm sur enobody wants to watch a movie about killing and skinning dogs. But it seems to be more than acceptable to see a movie where human bodies are cut apart, most of them when they are still alive even. We do it in our gaming as well.
To every PvP nutt out there, your desire to get your 'fix' by 'killing' other people, in a game or not, is still the desire to kill other human beings. So really, what is more ethical, making games for entertainment, or making dark games for entertainment. I think the content of the deversion is far more important than the form of deversion itself.
You had me until this last part. Card games actually do take quite a bit of skill to be successful. The skills required are definitely different than playing Chess, but you can't simply sit down at a card table with professional poker players and expect to win any hands.
As to the "people who watch sports have 0 self confidence" comment. All I have to say to that is... What?
I don't personally watch sports because I find it boring. It was never something I got into. But, I know plenty of successful people who get enjoyment out of watching their home team play and are very passionate about "their" team.
Cardgames do actually require skill. And that there is skill. But there will ALWAYS be a % of luck, no matter what. Plus i didnt say everyone falls under that category, most professionals just play for the money
About the sports example i do believe it, 0 might have just been an over-exxageration. But i do believe that the only reason of watching such thinks is to feel better by having the team they support win, even though they did nothing to help them in reality(money related stuff dont count)
Most of what i say are targeting around 90% of that crowd i am talking to. there are always expections in every case
To me it is far more 'right' to sit through 10 hours of blackjack at the casino than spend that same 10 hours sitting at a computer simulating killing thousands of other people. Most, and everyone will agree I'm sure, most of the entertainment venues we have today involve some sort of visual debautery towards other human beings.
Ye i do agree with that, those killings also count as a psychology trick to give the player the power he doesnt have in real life.
about the pvp part
Personally i do love pvp, not as a way of killing people, but as a competition sport. Requiring skill in order to win and sometimes can be so satisfying if you have a really close match where both people are low on health/units and every single move is crucial and every small detail counts
But thats just me, i do believe the majority just plays to win and that is why there are so many gear based mmo that require you time untill you get the top gear in order to win people with low gear since many times people with the same gear are too difficult for you... Pvp also has some killing aspect in it though
Here's a simple analogy.
Let's say someone does a crossword puzzle, and they do one that's somewhat easier than what they could probably handle if they really tried hard.
After the person completes the puzzle, have they:
- wasted their time?
- done something unethical?
- done something 'wrong' cause they could've done a harder puzzle?
I would emphatically answer no to all three, and I think most people would. Not everything we do has to be constructive or have a purpose other than self-enjoyment.
Well that depends on the complexity of the puzzle and how difficult it was. If it was something that is considered difficult then it could be a reason to feel better since you wasted time and skill(yet i am not sure about puzzles since they seem to require time instead of skill or thinking) to achieve that and if it was good enough other people would trully like and he would be called an artist. But really it just depends on the level of skilled required
Let's say someone does a crossword puzzle, and they do one that's somewhat easier than what they could probably handle if they really tried hard.
After the person completes the puzzle, have they:
- wasted their time?
- done something unethical?
- done something 'wrong' cause they could've done a harder puzzle?
I would emphatically answer no to all three, and I think most people would. Not everything we do has to be constructive or have a purpose other than self-enjoyment.
you are trying to assign an absolute value to subjective concepts. I BELIEVE it is wrong to tell other people that their likes/dislikes/wishes are "wrong". it is fundamentally disrespectful, and displays a lack of maturity.
it is not up to us to judge others and try to decide what is right or wrong for THEM. for yourself, gaming may be wrong. but there is no "truth" to be found in examining the objective morality in the hobbies of others, no matter what destructive values you place on them.
I think the more ethical question to ask is not that gaming is wrong itself, everyone will try some form of entertainment at one point in time in thier life. No, the ethical question should be what we do in that form of entertainment, is it right or wrong. To me it is far more 'right' to sit through 10 hours of blackjack at the casino than spend that same 10 hours sitting at a computer simulating killing thousands of other people. Most, and everyone will agree I'm sure, most of the entertainment venues we have today involve some sort of visual debautery towards other human beings.
We have ruled out in our society the cruelty to animals which is all good and fine, I'm sur enobody wants to watch a movie about killing and skinning dogs. But it seems to be more than acceptable to see a movie where human bodies are cut apart, most of them when they are still alive even. We do it in our gaming as well.
To every PvP nutt out there, your desire to get your 'fix' by 'killing' other people, in a game or not, is still the desire to kill other human beings. So really, what is more ethical, making games for entertainment, or making dark games for entertainment. I think the content of the deversion is far more important than the form of deversion itself.
What's wrong about killing and skinning - ok not dogs but say rabbits? What is so cruel about it? Do I want to see it? Well i definitely should watch it and learn it, It is weekly routine I should be able to perform easily. That is pretty much the whole purpose of rabbits as far as normal human being is concerned - to be killed and skinned.
This world is all twisted.
Oh and I agree about killing humans in games. Some people want to "pwn" human beings in some clearly defined way, so "killing" them serves the purpose. Funny thing is there are two postions in a pack that do not want to start a fight - the underdog who serves as punching bag for everyone and the leader who has nothing to gain and a lot to lose. And the lower you are the more inclined you are to "pwn" some helpless sod. In this case, the fake in games is that they glorify the accomplishments of self proclaimed losers.
for example, what is stopping you from saying that reading certain books is "wrong"? if you dont appreciate the contents, and believe the author only wrote addicting cheap narratives to snag fans and make money, does this not saticfy your definition of "wrong"?
reading text in a cheap dime store novel doesent require any more skill than do so in a video game, and those novels have zero social aspects...
for example, what is stopping you from saying that reading certain books is "wrong"? if you dont appreciate the contents, and believe the author only wrote addicting cheap narratives to snag fans and make money, does this not saticfy your definition of "wrong"?
reading text in a cheap dime store novel doesent require any more skill than do so in a video game, and those novels have zero social aspects...
I am not believing, i know it, i see it. Its obvious they are trying to make money out of that. And people fall for those cheap narratives that hold no true skill to be created and have no value at all. And reading them improves you in 0 way.
Its pretty similar to games, but games also give you a fake feeling of achievement and a boost in self confidense
for example, what is stopping you from saying that reading certain books is "wrong"? if you dont appreciate the contents, and believe the author only wrote addicting cheap narratives to snag fans and make money, does this not saticfy your definition of "wrong"?
reading text in a cheap dime store novel doesent require any more skill than do so in a video game, and those novels have zero social aspects...
I am not believing, i know it, i see it. Its obvious they are trying to make money out of that. And people fall for those cheap narratives that hold no true skill to be created and have no value at all. And reading them improves you in 0 way.
Its pretty similar to games, but games also give you a fake feeling of achievement and a boost in self confidense
on what are you basing anything that you think? you are making nothing but objective statements regarding peoples general tastes and habits. do you realize the phallacy in what you are doing?
why does your subjective interpretation of the concept of "skill" translate into being not "wrong"?
maybe games give YOU are fake feeling of achievement and a boost in self confidence, but i just like escapism. i work and go to school, my life is not a waste. i deserve to do what i enjoy for a few hours a week, why are you so judgemental and narrow minded?
I do believe Wolfy is going somewhere with the argument of "psychological tricks" and "fake entertainment". According to this Escapist video I've watched, a lot of games really do use psychological tricks using the Skinner Box method of operant conditioning:
on what are you basing anything that you think? you are making nothing but objective statements regarding peoples general tastes and habits. do you realize the phallacy in what you are doing?
why does your subjective interpretation of the concept of "skill" translate into being not "wrong"?
Well everyone who is in gaming or in the gaming industry knows that. But simply just watch the games that are coming out.
Skill is something that is required to be succesful in gaming, and since gaming is closing to be as skill demanding as sports i dont see why someone shouldnt feel better if he number 1 in an international ladder with thousands of people to compete with? He earned that achievement that required a lot of skill to win, he is very good at playing games.
Especially when people get money from professional gaming, i definitely dont see that as a fake feeling
it is not up to us to judge others and try to decide what is right or wrong for THEM. for yourself, gaming may be wrong. but there is no "truth" to be found in examining the objective morality in the hobbies of others, no matter what destructive values you place on them.
You see 10 people who are going to fall in an ovious trap by a petty thief who is so dumb you can see through it. So i see only 1 person being wrong i dont see 2 sides
Well i do believe that everyone should make his own choices and he should face the concequences but i wanted to give an example
edit: really interesting video
And its seems cruiris doesnt even understand what i am talking about according to his last quote under this post
I do believe Wolfy is going somewhere with the argument of "psychological tricks" and "fake entertainment". According to this Escapist video I've watched, a lot of games really do use psychological tricks using the Skinner Box method of operant conditioning:
on what are you basing anything that you think? you are making nothing but objective statements regarding peoples general tastes and habits. do you realize the phallacy in what you are doing?
why does your subjective interpretation of the concept of "skill" translate into being not "wrong"?
Well everyone who is in gaming or in the gaming industry knows that. But simply just watch the games that are coming out.
Skill is something that is required to be succesful in gaming, and since gaming is closing to be as skill demanding as sports i dont see why someone shouldnt feel better if he number 1 in an international ladder with thousands of people to compete with? He earned that achievement that required a lot of skill to win, he is very good at playing games.
Especially when people get money from professional gaming, i definitely dont see that as a fake feeling
it is not up to us to judge others and try to decide what is right or wrong for THEM. for yourself, gaming may be wrong. but there is no "truth" to be found in examining the objective morality in the hobbies of others, no matter what destructive values you place on them.
You see 10 people who are going to fall in an ovious trap by a petty thief who is so dumb you can see through it. So i see only 1 person being wrong i dont see 2 sides
Well i do believe that everyone should make his own choices and he should face the concequences but i wanted to give an example
whatever. people pay for what they like. its a simple concept, and im starting to think you are just trolling this.
go make a cardboard sign and protest at a grocery store, as people can live on bugs they dig out of the dirt for free, if you really think free market capitalism is wrong.
Personally I see gaming like I see alcohol. It can save your life, or if can destroy it utterly.
For example: Liqour has been used to stave off frostbite and helps people from freezing to death. A glass of wine a day can combat heart disease.
Games in general, not just video games can teach valuable lessons, mostly social, pattern recognition, and strategy. But for video games in general the best way to use them for the general populace is as stress release. Stress can cause health problems, and mental disorders. If gaming can relieve some of a persons stress so that they can function, I can hardly say they are bad.
The key thing to EVERYTHING in life is moderation, and knowing it's proper use. Once you hit the threshold of addiction, anything can be destructive.
The difference between GAMING and another "Entertainment Hobby" is very severe.
Once a game dies, it dies...There is no going back and you can no longer play it unless it has a singleplayer or you know people who can raise a server. As new games are released you must relearn how to play games and join in new generations of crowds with different opinions and perceptions as games change. Eventually you stay in a certain span and taste for certain kinds of games, but once the game dies, all you have are memories and there is no going back, just moving forward.
In another entertainment hobby, you can always get better at what you do and advance. You can go back and do something you enjoyed doing before because you learned it and retained it or earned it. Example....A musician gets better over time and 30 years down the line he or she can still play the first songs learned and can even step back and play. A film buff can find that one old black and white film he grew up with. People in sports who lose can look forward to the next season and coming back next year stronger....
...But gaming has you spend tons of money in many areas just to get an experience that is valid for a certain period of time and if you dont migrate to new games, you lose out.
While playing a game is not morally wrong, what other companies do to screw you out of your money truly is. The partnership between the Tech Industry. Software Industry and Gaming Industry is so severe you have to pay money into all three to play a game or not have the hobby or experience you should be having. You then have to pay money for Internet Connections and Monthly fees too, while deal with all the adware, popups, spyware and all.....
This is why I've always stated that while gaming is fun, it really is by far one of the most bittersweet hobbies to have since you lose a lot, all to get a few memories for the sake of having memories.
The difference between GAMING and another "Entertainment Hobby" is very severe.
Once a game dies, it dies...There is no going back and you can no longer play it unless it has a singleplayer or you know people who can raise a server. As new games are released you must relearn how to play games and join in new generations of crowds with different opinions and perceptions as games change. Eventually you stay in a certain span and taste for certain kinds of games, but once the game dies, all you have are memories and there is no going back, just moving forward.
In another entertainment hobby, you can always get better at what you do and advance. You can go back and do something you enjoyed doing before because you learned it and retained it or earned it. Example....A musician gets better over time and 30 years down the line he or she can still play the first songs learned and can even step back and play. A film buff can find that one old black and white film he grew up with. People in sports who lose can look forward to the next season and coming back next year stronger....
...But gaming has you spend tons of money in many areas just to get an experience that is valid for a certain period of time and if you dont migrate to new games, you lose out.
While playing a game is not morally wrong, what other companies do to screw you out of your money truly is. The partnership between the Tech Industry. Software Industry and Gaming Industry is so severe you have to pay money into all three to play a game or not have the hobby or experience you should be having. You then have to pay money for Internet Connections and Monthly fees too, while deal with all the adware, popups, spyware and all.....
This is why I've always stated that while gaming is fun, it really is by far one of the most bittersweet hobbies to have since you lose a lot, all to get a few memories for the sake of having memories.
i think persuing interests just to build memories is a rather fatalistic perspective. i dont mean to get all zen up in here, but the power of now truly has a lot more value than most are able to credit. enjoying something is not an investment. it's like eating food you like. you dont need to justify beyond it's flavor why you want to eat it (although if its so unhealthy it will end up killing you is another matter)
this whole thread has completely overlooked the value of enjoyment, as though because it does not have a lasting effect, it somehow is a lie or doesent exist.
look up the concept of impermanence. just because things end, doesent mean that they are worthless. ( and im not trying to side step the meaning of true end by pretending memories of something gone will somehow replace it in the hereafter)
Hell I work out daily jsut so I can try to kick your ass if you say something to me. Is that wrong? Its sooo egotistical,
I have played guitar for 18 years now. I strive to be better each day. My band does too. I laugh at mere noobs who think pentatonics are hard. Cant pull of that fret spread? Well, well, well, maybe if you wouldnt have baby hands. THat is sooo wrong.
I feed my bird french fries, she loves them. It makes her feel better about her day. Thats wrong.
Tonight Im gonna watch 300 and yell "Spartans, what is your profession? WHoo WHOO WHOO"
I just listed a few hobbies I have to pass the time. I dont think hobbies are wrong. If you like games, then great. I dont think developers have a master plan to drug you by easy gratification. They are gamers too. They just want to earn an honest living providing entertainment for others.
For some of us, hobbies ae something for us to perfect. They are things we strive to become more skillfull at for enjoyment and accomplishment, I really dont like people that dont have hobbies or things they strive to better themselves at. How worthless their life must be. If a game is someones only hobby, who cares? At least they have a passion in their life. So what if they strive to perfect their build order in sc. Who cares if they strive to better their fps skills.
I dont buy the whole kids buy games to feel a sense of I win, Im better than you. kids buy games because. What more to say abou tthat. Just because.
Comments
This is my favorite post of the day.
Haha, the title alone was a prelude to comedy via misinformation and overzealotry of ethics.
Currently playing: No MMOs
Played properly: WoW
Tried: AoC, WAR, Aion, Darkfall
Looking forward to: FFXIV, Earthrise, The Secret World, Guild Wars 2 (very much), Project Copernicus (and Mercury for that matter), Everquest and Planetside Next (finally a meaningful mmofps again)
Wants to play in 2 years time if it survives from the subscriptions of fanatics and turns into the game with all features stated on the website: Mortal Online
Wolfy I am still trying to figure out what your argument is here. Apparently you think video games are "fake" entertainment, which are still entertaining but not in the same way as "real" entertainment? And then you think it's wrong that they cost money?
Yes, Games are fake entertainment for most people.
Games generally make you feel you are better somewhow by achieving thinks or "winning" other opponents, while in truth everyone could do what they did required 0 skill to do so. So you give a person the feeling that he is good, that he is unique but in truth, he is just being fooled for his money and he i no better than anyone else. Thats a fake self confidence boost
Games give players the power of choice, the one that they dont have in real life so they can feel better again
I am "ok" with buying entairtenment but thats not the topic, the problem with games that cost money is that they are just fooling people and make them feel better while THEY ARE NOT ANY BETTER THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THEY PLAY THE GAME.
Its just a psychological trick
An example
A kid is raised in a huge rich house and he gets everything he wants and everyone tells him he is right in every of his choices. This kid has huge self confidence and believes he never does any mistakes and anyone who will say different is simply wrong. He lives in his own fake world believing that his is god while he is nothing more than another typical human(this is an overexxagerated example)
Also i am not talking about mmorpgs only, even though many people seemed to assume that. The majority of games(individualy not based on population or sold copies) that give that fake feeling is single player games. Mmos also give that feeling but its either more hidden or the other players get in your way of feeling better
I guess the concept of "fake entertainment" is what is in question here. for some, reading a book is "real entertainment", for some watching porn on their iphone is "real entertainment" and for the more extereme, jumping out of a perfectly working airplane at 17000 feet is "real entertainment":D... the question comes down to who or what decides is "real" entertainment for anyone/everyone? this is a question that religious people have been arguing for ages. what is "real" religion? or who is the "real" god/gods
just because a particular activity is NOT considered "real" entertaiment for YOU, doesn't mean it's not REAL entertainment for someone else. this is the internet age, so you might be better to keep an geocentric viewpoint in discussions rather then being so myopic in your definitions.
There is nothing bad about having fun, nothing dirty about wasting time, it is all very natural. As long as it is natural.
The contemporary omnipresent kytsch is wrong. Games that keep dragging on after they stopped being fun and after they showed you everything they could, are wrong. Business build on exploiting humans.
But you do not have to conduct business or make games in such way, not everyone does.
Its psychology. A person doesnt have any real power in real life, he feels powerless. Then he goes play a game and is feeling better because he has the choice he doesnt have in real life. But at the end its a simple trick to make you feel the so called "fun"
The other is winning or achieving thinks that require 0 skill and even a 4 year old can do. Companies portrait those thinks as something that is really difficult and require skill but that only exists to make the player believe they actually achieved something. So a person after pressing a button he gets flashe graphics and gets "A NEW LEVEL OMG!! U ARE SO AWESUM" box feels better and believes he achieved something. This feeling is simply fake because it was simply created to create that sort of illusion and its also fake because EVERYONE can do it. Its nothing to be proud about, yet i have seen people feeling proud about thinks that they didnt even do...
Books, movies, shows might give you entairtainment and made you laught or have fun, but that does NOT make you feel any better about yourself or give you a fake self-confidence boost like games do.
Would you ever call chess a fake self confidence boost??? a game that is solely based on player skill? and the winner is the one that plays better thus is better than the other player. Today games are not games with achievements they are achievements inside games
Other example of fake achievement? cardgames. No matter how skilled you are there is ALWAYS a % of luck. Most people love to play luck based games because when they lose they dont say "omg i suck hard" they say "omg i have really bad luck". But when they win they feel like they won a chess match... Obvious difference is obvious(lets not get out of topic please, i used cardgames as an example, we are discussing the current generation of games like single player games and many online games like wow)
Its similar to the real life sports psychology, most people who watch sports only and never play them they simply do it so they can feel better. They have 0 self-confidence and most times are right(since psychology is very important, to the level it can heal someone if the person believes is fune), they need to find a way to feel important and succesful. that why humans join group most of the times. That is why many times you see sports watchers argue about their teams using the word "WE" instead of the word "THEY". It simply shows that they need to feel better even though its completely fake and is based on another persons acts
You had me until this last part. Card games actually do take quite a bit of skill to be successful. The skills required are definitely different than playing Chess, but you can't simply sit down at a card table with professional poker players and expect to win any hands.
As to the "people who watch sports have 0 self confidence" comment. All I have to say to that is... What?
I don't personally watch sports because I find it boring. It was never something I got into. But, I know plenty of successful people who get enjoyment out of watching their home team play and are very passionate about "their" team.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I think the more ethical question to ask is not that gaming is wrong itself, everyone will try some form of entertainment at one point in time in thier life. No, the ethical question should be what we do in that form of entertainment, is it right or wrong. To me it is far more 'right' to sit through 10 hours of blackjack at the casino than spend that same 10 hours sitting at a computer simulating killing thousands of other people. Most, and everyone will agree I'm sure, most of the entertainment venues we have today involve some sort of visual debautery towards other human beings.
We have ruled out in our society the cruelty to animals which is all good and fine, I'm sur enobody wants to watch a movie about killing and skinning dogs. But it seems to be more than acceptable to see a movie where human bodies are cut apart, most of them when they are still alive even. We do it in our gaming as well.
To every PvP nutt out there, your desire to get your 'fix' by 'killing' other people, in a game or not, is still the desire to kill other human beings. So really, what is more ethical, making games for entertainment, or making dark games for entertainment. I think the content of the deversion is far more important than the form of deversion itself.
Cardgames do actually require skill. And that there is skill. But there will ALWAYS be a % of luck, no matter what. Plus i didnt say everyone falls under that category, most professionals just play for the money
About the sports example i do believe it, 0 might have just been an over-exxageration. But i do believe that the only reason of watching such thinks is to feel better by having the team they support win, even though they did nothing to help them in reality(money related stuff dont count)
Most of what i say are targeting around 90% of that crowd i am talking to. there are always expections in every case
Ye i do agree with that, those killings also count as a psychology trick to give the player the power he doesnt have in real life.
Personally i do love pvp, not as a way of killing people, but as a competition sport. Requiring skill in order to win and sometimes can be so satisfying if you have a really close match where both people are low on health/units and every single move is crucial and every small detail counts
But thats just me, i do believe the majority just plays to win and that is why there are so many gear based mmo that require you time untill you get the top gear in order to win people with low gear since many times people with the same gear are too difficult for you... Pvp also has some killing aspect in it though
Well that depends on the complexity of the puzzle and how difficult it was. If it was something that is considered difficult then it could be a reason to feel better since you wasted time and skill(yet i am not sure about puzzles since they seem to require time instead of skill or thinking) to achieve that and if it was good enough other people would trully like and he would be called an artist. But really it just depends on the level of skilled required
Here's a simple analogy.
Let's say someone does a crossword puzzle, and they do one that's somewhat easier than what they could probably handle if they really tried hard.
After the person completes the puzzle, have they:
- wasted their time?
- done something unethical?
- done something 'wrong' cause they could've done a harder puzzle?
I would emphatically answer no to all three, and I think most people would. Not everything we do has to be constructive or have a purpose other than self-enjoyment.
this thread is frustrating.
you are trying to assign an absolute value to subjective concepts. I BELIEVE it is wrong to tell other people that their likes/dislikes/wishes are "wrong". it is fundamentally disrespectful, and displays a lack of maturity.
it is not up to us to judge others and try to decide what is right or wrong for THEM. for yourself, gaming may be wrong. but there is no "truth" to be found in examining the objective morality in the hobbies of others, no matter what destructive values you place on them.
What's wrong about killing and skinning - ok not dogs but say rabbits? What is so cruel about it? Do I want to see it? Well i definitely should watch it and learn it, It is weekly routine I should be able to perform easily. That is pretty much the whole purpose of rabbits as far as normal human being is concerned - to be killed and skinned.
This world is all twisted.
Oh and I agree about killing humans in games. Some people want to "pwn" human beings in some clearly defined way, so "killing" them serves the purpose. Funny thing is there are two postions in a pack that do not want to start a fight - the underdog who serves as punching bag for everyone and the leader who has nothing to gain and a lot to lose. And the lower you are the more inclined you are to "pwn" some helpless sod. In this case, the fake in games is that they glorify the accomplishments of self proclaimed losers.
for example, what is stopping you from saying that reading certain books is "wrong"? if you dont appreciate the contents, and believe the author only wrote addicting cheap narratives to snag fans and make money, does this not saticfy your definition of "wrong"?
reading text in a cheap dime store novel doesent require any more skill than do so in a video game, and those novels have zero social aspects...
I am not believing, i know it, i see it. Its obvious they are trying to make money out of that. And people fall for those cheap narratives that hold no true skill to be created and have no value at all. And reading them improves you in 0 way.
Its pretty similar to games, but games also give you a fake feeling of achievement and a boost in self confidense
on what are you basing anything that you think? you are making nothing but objective statements regarding peoples general tastes and habits. do you realize the phallacy in what you are doing?
why does your subjective interpretation of the concept of "skill" translate into being not "wrong"?
maybe games give YOU are fake feeling of achievement and a boost in self confidence, but i just like escapism. i work and go to school, my life is not a waste. i deserve to do what i enjoy for a few hours a week, why are you so judgemental and narrow minded?
I do believe Wolfy is going somewhere with the argument of "psychological tricks" and "fake entertainment". According to this Escapist video I've watched, a lot of games really do use psychological tricks using the Skinner Box method of operant conditioning:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2487-The-Skinner-Box
A lot of games really are a waste of time.
Well everyone who is in gaming or in the gaming industry knows that. But simply just watch the games that are coming out.
Skill is something that is required to be succesful in gaming, and since gaming is closing to be as skill demanding as sports i dont see why someone shouldnt feel better if he number 1 in an international ladder with thousands of people to compete with? He earned that achievement that required a lot of skill to win, he is very good at playing games.
Especially when people get money from professional gaming, i definitely dont see that as a fake feeling
You see 10 people who are going to fall in an ovious trap by a petty thief who is so dumb you can see through it. So i see only 1 person being wrong i dont see 2 sides
Well i do believe that everyone should make his own choices and he should face the concequences but i wanted to give an example
edit: really interesting video
And its seems cruiris doesnt even understand what i am talking about according to his last quote under this post
this should clear some things up for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
whatever. people pay for what they like. its a simple concept, and im starting to think you are just trolling this.
go make a cardboard sign and protest at a grocery store, as people can live on bugs they dig out of the dirt for free, if you really think free market capitalism is wrong.
Personally I see gaming like I see alcohol. It can save your life, or if can destroy it utterly.
For example: Liqour has been used to stave off frostbite and helps people from freezing to death. A glass of wine a day can combat heart disease.
Games in general, not just video games can teach valuable lessons, mostly social, pattern recognition, and strategy. But for video games in general the best way to use them for the general populace is as stress release. Stress can cause health problems, and mental disorders. If gaming can relieve some of a persons stress so that they can function, I can hardly say they are bad.
The key thing to EVERYTHING in life is moderation, and knowing it's proper use. Once you hit the threshold of addiction, anything can be destructive.
The difference between GAMING and another "Entertainment Hobby" is very severe.
Once a game dies, it dies...There is no going back and you can no longer play it unless it has a singleplayer or you know people who can raise a server. As new games are released you must relearn how to play games and join in new generations of crowds with different opinions and perceptions as games change. Eventually you stay in a certain span and taste for certain kinds of games, but once the game dies, all you have are memories and there is no going back, just moving forward.
In another entertainment hobby, you can always get better at what you do and advance. You can go back and do something you enjoyed doing before because you learned it and retained it or earned it. Example....A musician gets better over time and 30 years down the line he or she can still play the first songs learned and can even step back and play. A film buff can find that one old black and white film he grew up with. People in sports who lose can look forward to the next season and coming back next year stronger....
...But gaming has you spend tons of money in many areas just to get an experience that is valid for a certain period of time and if you dont migrate to new games, you lose out.
While playing a game is not morally wrong, what other companies do to screw you out of your money truly is. The partnership between the Tech Industry. Software Industry and Gaming Industry is so severe you have to pay money into all three to play a game or not have the hobby or experience you should be having. You then have to pay money for Internet Connections and Monthly fees too, while deal with all the adware, popups, spyware and all.....
This is why I've always stated that while gaming is fun, it really is by far one of the most bittersweet hobbies to have since you lose a lot, all to get a few memories for the sake of having memories.
i think persuing interests just to build memories is a rather fatalistic perspective. i dont mean to get all zen up in here, but the power of now truly has a lot more value than most are able to credit. enjoying something is not an investment. it's like eating food you like. you dont need to justify beyond it's flavor why you want to eat it (although if its so unhealthy it will end up killing you is another matter)
this whole thread has completely overlooked the value of enjoyment, as though because it does not have a lasting effect, it somehow is a lie or doesent exist.
look up the concept of impermanence. just because things end, doesent mean that they are worthless. ( and im not trying to side step the meaning of true end by pretending memories of something gone will somehow replace it in the hereafter)
Hell I work out daily jsut so I can try to kick your ass if you say something to me. Is that wrong? Its sooo egotistical,
I have played guitar for 18 years now. I strive to be better each day. My band does too. I laugh at mere noobs who think pentatonics are hard. Cant pull of that fret spread? Well, well, well, maybe if you wouldnt have baby hands. THat is sooo wrong.
I feed my bird french fries, she loves them. It makes her feel better about her day. Thats wrong.
Tonight Im gonna watch 300 and yell "Spartans, what is your profession? WHoo WHOO WHOO"
I just listed a few hobbies I have to pass the time. I dont think hobbies are wrong. If you like games, then great. I dont think developers have a master plan to drug you by easy gratification. They are gamers too. They just want to earn an honest living providing entertainment for others.
For some of us, hobbies ae something for us to perfect. They are things we strive to become more skillfull at for enjoyment and accomplishment, I really dont like people that dont have hobbies or things they strive to better themselves at. How worthless their life must be. If a game is someones only hobby, who cares? At least they have a passion in their life. So what if they strive to perfect their build order in sc. Who cares if they strive to better their fps skills.
I dont buy the whole kids buy games to feel a sense of I win, Im better than you. kids buy games because. What more to say abou tthat. Just because.
The simple answer is inherently NO. But like all things... moderation is the key.
I self identify as a monkey.