I didn't read all of what you posted but no, I don't think it is. Think of gaming as just another form of entertainment, and entertainment isn't wrong at all. Its kind of like going to the movies or eating out.
And when it comes to developers making these games to fish the money out of your pocket, thats just called capitalism. Is it wrong? Of course it isn't, in fact, it stimulates the economy!
You also stated that video gaming waste of time. Thats a matter of opinion in which I completely disagree with you. I enjoy it, so its not a waste of my time.
People seem to forget that gaming is a luxury, and not a given fact.
You need money in order to buy stuff. And you need time. If you don't have time, don't play games. We all know they're time consuming. If you don't want to 'waste' your time, then sure as hell don't play MMO's or even be on these forums trolling about.
I work in a cellphone store and I see this every day. People who complain about their bills all the time. And when you say that a cellphone is a luxury product, they don't understand. You don't NEED a cellphone.
Same as gaming. You don't NEED gaming, it's for fun. Entertainment is expensive. If you're not willing to cough up the dough, then go on and read a book.
You as a gamedesigner should know this. It's NOT a welfare organization. It's a company. Companies need to make money. And whether you work in a shoestore or as a dentist or as a game designer, they all need to make money, and they do not shy of it.
You have the noble job of bringing a game to the people that can make them think or make them believe they're in a different world. Do not underestimate that power. It your responsibility to make people happy if they buy your game. That's the biggest difference between good game designers, and bad ones. If you made a good game, hell, it's not a shame to ask money for it. And I think I'm not the only one.
Hmm... So if someone started a gaming company that was a charitable organization...?
exceptions =/= rules.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I love games, playing them and i do focus on becoming a game designer but i start to think thats just ethically wrong.
Games are made for money and how companies sell them? by making them "fun"(and of course correct marketing to create an impression to the masses that they will like so they are gonna buy it). But what is fun exactly?
For the majorities and the bigger percent of the market its simply "winning"...
People do feel better(and feel better about themselves) by "winning" or believing they "achieved" something or they simply have the power to choose or do something that they cannot in real life.Some games even behind the scenes lower the game difficulty so they wont disappoint you...
Games are simply becoming psychology buffs and not games that can sometimes also have some challenges that can count as achievements that require skill to be earned.
I dont say there arent people who like
Story
design
competition(it requires actual skill)
Social and be together with friends
But these are just a minority compared to most people who just "pay" games and never really come online to the internet
Whats the difference between games and drugs for the masses?
Both do some physical and sometimes mental damage
Both spend time Both require MONEY
Both waste some time
Both make you feel better even though you might not deserve it or have done nothing to earn it. You just pay money for it... Its just like tricking kids with candy...
Do you think its correct to fool people to give their money just to give them a think that makes them feel they suck less??even though they still suck a lot and "winning" the game doesnt make you suck less
Personally i love games sometimes for story like mass effect series, i just love how bioware works and even though some choices might not impact the game a lot i want to choose them cause i want to see what funny and smart dialogue bioware created
I also play to win and feel better but i only get that satisfaction when i win a really close match in pvp or 1v1 where both sides are equal and there is no pre-fight advantage(Gear,ganking). Thats what i call good game(also watching ppl say GG after every yiffing fight is annoying cause 99% of those fhts are definitely NOT GG)
*and i count that as something good and an achievement because if you say its just a game, i dont see whats the difference between real life sports? Both require skill, because it does not require a lot of physical skill it doesnt mean its not skill
I have to admit that i also had some fun in unbalanced situation like in l2 fighting in big groups or just fighting or ganging others but that was nothing to be proud about or satisfying enough.
An example
A kid is raised in a huge rich house and he gets everything he wants and everyone tells him he is right in every of his choices. This kid has huge self confidence and believes he never does any mistakes and anyone who will say different is simply wrong. He lives in his own fake world believing that his is god while he is nothing more than another typical human(this is an overexxagerated example)
Please focus on that: People are buying games, to feel better by winning or achieving stuff that require no skill and everyone can do it or believe they have more power than the real world. That is fake, you believe you did something and feel better about yourself, that you are actually good. But thats just a ruse to make you feel better. Its just like a fake world
Off-topic: Is it stupidity that makes people pay 60$ for games like black ops that are just reskins with a few new addons and a huge price of 60 dollars tog just for these "addons"......
*Editing, for some reason i created the wall of text before thread creator loads and it ate all the paragraphs...
Didn't read the entire thread... but here.
Gaming is not ethically wrong, it just isnt. People buy games to be entertained and happy and get lost in a different world. Sounds like drugs right? Happy and lost in another world. Well so does reading a book. And a movie. Hell people work so that they can be happy and live in a better free world. If games are ethically wrong, then so is every other pursuit of happiness.
Drugs are wrong MAINLY because of violence. You hever hear of gangs killing each other over WoW? Didn't think so.
Honestly though, this post is just kinda stupid. You're basically asking, is it wrong to want happiness.
Video games satisfy the need for adventure and exploration that I think every person wants. No one wants to live a stale life, doing nothing every day. Video games fill a void that can currently is not easily filled. The ages of exploration are long gone, and one can not just dive into the unknown as they once could.
We have a little bit of Earth to explore further; the depths of the ocean. After that, we wait idly for new technology to allow us to explore the abyss that is space. I for one cant wait until I can stop pretending to adventure and actually be able to do it. (Call me a nerd if you want, but if I have a chance in my life time, I will sacrifice everything to have my own ship and crew.)
Are video games wrong? because they have in cases ruined peoples lives. Is beer wrong? because in cases it has ruined peoples lives. Is food wrong? because in cases it has ruined peoples lives. Is sex wrong? because in cases it has ruined peoples lives. Is TV wrong? because there are cases where it has ruined peoples lives? Are cars wrong? because there are cases where they have ruined peoples lives. etc!
Sigh, that starts to get depressing. Everyone doesnt read the thread and everyone just answers negatively or positively without taking into account my main point.
My main point is:
Why the majority of people dont play online? Cause they die, they die again and again and again. And dieing inst fun, they simply want to win, and if they cant win they get disapointed and stop playing(really small % tries to improve). But u can always keep them happy in the fake "fun" of single player(and thats where the majority of market is)
Main point, AI IS COMPLETELY DUMB, ITS ONLY REASON TO EXIST IS TO MAKE IDIOTS FEEL BETTER BY KILLING A GRAPHICALLY HUGE MONSTER BY PRESSING ONE YIFFING BUTON
Its the same think like WOW achievements, get an achievement for doing 5 quests without breaking your spine!!!
This is simply rigged to make idiots who suck feel better
And why is it FAKE??
Because it requires 0 skill, its like pressing a yiffing button in your pc and getting a reward every x time saying how skillful player you are
And another reason this is BAD, is because those single player idiots came online because games start to move online AND DEMAND YIFFING BALANCE OR "COOL" CHANGES HAVING NO IDEA THE CONCEQUENCES IN THE GAMEPLAY, AND THEY JUST WANT CHANGES SO THEY CAN "WIN" SINCE THEY CANT NOW...
Monthly fee games are greedy bastards , but we are too stupid to realize it. Ethically right for them, unethical for the enduser.
Free game with item mall is way more greedy than monthly subscription.
Subscription: Fairness no matter what
Purpose for free game with item mall is:
It encourage you to play it and hope you like it and once u hit brickwall and u really wanted stuff in item mall, makes you bring your wallet and buy it... once your "coin or token" runs out... you bring out wallet again... unlimit spending on item mall than monthly subscription. Yet you can lose the item after you purchase from IM. Its no guarantee that you will get what u want from Item mall anyway which is "casino".
Subscription way cheaper than free game with item mall!
Sigh, that starts to get depressing. Everyone doesnt read the thread and everyone just answers negatively or positively without taking into account my main point.
My main point is:
Why the majority of people dont play online? Cause they die, they die again and again and again. And dieing inst fun, they simply want to win, and if they cant win they get disapointed and stop playing(really small % tries to improve). But u can always keep them happy in the fake "fun" of single player(and thats where the majority of market is)
Main point, AI IS COMPLETELY DUMB, ITS ONLY REASON TO EXIST IS TO MAKE IDIOTS FEEL BETTER BY KILLING A GRAPHICALLY HUGE MONSTER BY PRESSING ONE YIFFING BUTON
Its the same think like WOW achievements, get an achievement for doing 5 quests without breaking your spine!!!
This is simply rigged to make idiots who suck feel better
And why is it FAKE??
Because it requires 0 skill, its like pressing a yiffing button in your pc and getting a reward every x time saying how skillful player you are
And another reason this is BAD, is because those single player idiots came online because games start to move online AND DEMAND YIFFING BALANCE OR "COOL" CHANGES HAVING NO IDEA THE CONCEQUENCES IN THE GAMEPLAY, AND THEY JUST WANT CHANGES SO THEY CAN "WIN" SINCE THEY CANT NOW...
BRING ME A FUCKING DEATH NOTE!!
Thats what PvP is for... competeting skills against each other.. Just like sports... Tennis, swimming, Tracks. Why people play gaming to make money like Fatal1ty? Cuz its a sport!
Competeting against AI is just boring. Which is why end game is always about Pvp cuz AI isnt good anymore.
Cow-clicker kind of proves your point, but in a funnier way.
And I still don't agree that gaming is "wrong" - look at something like the success of Demon Souls or Minecraft to see that not all gamers are (a) skill-less, creativity free, click-junkies and (b) not all game companies are catering to the "no-risk, all reward" crowd.
Mayhap you need to expand your horizons a bit? Not everything adheres to the skinner-box mentality of most MMOs.
Cow-clicker kind of proves your point, but in a funnier way.
And I still don't agree that gaming is "wrong" - look at something like the success of Demon Souls or Minecraft to see that not all gamers are (a) skill-less, creativity free, click-junkies and (b) not all game companies are catering to the "no-risk, all reward" crowd.
Mayhap you need to expand your horizons a bit? Not everything adheres to the skinner-box mentality of most MMOs.
Well the majority of people who buy games are aka the biggest % of the market
I said in op that i always leave a small % for exceptions in everything but this thread is talking about the masses
The difference between GAMING and another "Entertainment Hobby" is very severe.
Once a game dies, it dies...There is no going back and you can no longer play it unless it has a singleplayer or you know people who can raise a server. As new games are released you must relearn how to play games and join in new generations of crowds with different opinions and perceptions as games change. Eventually you stay in a certain span and taste for certain kinds of games, but once the game dies, all you have are memories and there is no going back, just moving forward.
In another entertainment hobby, you can always get better at what you do and advance. You can go back and do something you enjoyed doing before because you learned it and retained it or earned it. Example....A musician gets better over time and 30 years down the line he or she can still play the first songs learned and can even step back and play. A film buff can find that one old black and white film he grew up with. People in sports who lose can look forward to the next season and coming back next year stronger....
...But gaming has you spend tons of money in many areas just to get an experience that is valid for a certain period of time and if you dont migrate to new games, you lose out.
While playing a game is not morally wrong, what other companies do to screw you out of your money truly is. The partnership between the Tech Industry. Software Industry and Gaming Industry is so severe you have to pay money into all three to play a game or not have the hobby or experience you should be having. You then have to pay money for Internet Connections and Monthly fees too, while deal with all the adware, popups, spyware and all.....
This is why I've always stated that while gaming is fun, it really is by far one of the most bittersweet hobbies to have since you lose a lot, all to get a few memories for the sake of having memories.
i think persuing interests just to build memories is a rather fatalistic perspective. i dont mean to get all zen up in here, but the power of now truly has a lot more value than most are able to credit. enjoying something is not an investment. it's like eating food you like. you dont need to justify beyond it's flavor why you want to eat it (although if its so unhealthy it will end up killing you is another matter)
this whole thread has completely overlooked the value of enjoyment, as though because it does not have a lasting effect, it somehow is a lie or doesent exist.
look up the concept of impermanence. just because things end, doesent mean that they are worthless. ( and im not trying to side step the meaning of true end by pretending memories of something gone will somehow replace it in the hereafter)
Hey, I like your reply...
I am a gamer and there are many areas of it. An example being that I am a tournament gamer. I enter regional tournaments, global tournametns and play in Leagues. On the other side I like a lot of singleplayer games and some MMOs out there. I care more about admiring some nice implementation, graphics and story. I care more for people who are playing a game with me, or in singleplayer the character development.
Your reply asks the question "When is a game, no longer a game" or "How is existence defined" which isn't a bad approach. However I should clarify and make a point.
I have been part of four Games where in the United States their "Servers" died. I bought the game, paid the subscription fees and after a few years, they died. All the time raising characters, my friends in-game...and the environment and attitude --All Gone! I played them in Japan where they had full updates and still it wasn't the same. Some experiences were good, but starting over sucked. I asked myself "why did I even played localized versions?" and decided I would only play original versions of MMOs from now on.
The point is that if I wanted to play those games in the US again, either I have to find a private server or I am screwed. All I have now are memories of those games I played as well as some shooters which come and go. As far as entertainment goes, games change, people change and the idea remains the same. I understand that...but the dependency is still there...
The gain is not much because although I have many stories of wins, loses, joy and heatbreak the majority in the real world can care less about hearing about those stories unless they are gamers themselves and thinking back one wonders why games were lost and gained...
Now I've been an active musician for thirteen years and I can tell you that there is always room to improve. New songs to write, new places to go and I can say "I am better now than I was back then" but you can't do that for gaming. In gaming you can only judge on how well you carry yourself game to game and once its gone, its gone. I can walk into a room with my experiences of being thrown into a mosh pit, having a bottle smash my face in one performance, have my car flatten out in the middle of a violent neighborhood and traveling to many different nations and experiencing things due to music.....which as far as gaming goes, all I can do is tell a story that amounts to "experiences I obtained from sitting my ass off in a chair and doing things with people online"
Gaming is like Sugar, we all love how sweet it can be and are tempted by it, but in the end its still an "Empty Calorie"
You have an interesting idea but present it all wrong. Ethical subjects require research and in this cause evidence that supports your theory which, in your case, are lacking.
While some persons buy their games to 'feel better' as you say it, I strongly disagree that we all do. I buy games to be entertained and I'm sure others feel the same way. You mentioned that the majority of players fit your discription but where's the proof? Do you have statistics? Your claim has no worth due to the lack of reliable evidence.
Now for my own opinion. I play online to socialize and to be entertained. If I win I do feel good, but certainly not in the way you describe. In thruth, if anyone seeks to better themselves in real life through gaming in a virtual world they should get some medical help. And I doubt that this is the case with the majority of gamers. Nevertheless, there probably are persons with this problem around but i belive they are the minority and I strongly advice them to stop gaming until their real life is sorted out.
Sigh, that starts to get depressing. Everyone doesnt read the thread and everyone just answers negatively or positively without taking into account my main point.
My main point is:
Why the majority of people dont play online? Cause they die, they die again and again and again. And dieing inst fun, they simply want to win, and if they cant win they get disapointed and stop playing(really small % tries to improve). But u can always keep them happy in the fake "fun" of single player(and thats where the majority of market is)
Main point, AI IS COMPLETELY DUMB, ITS ONLY REASON TO EXIST IS TO MAKE IDIOTS FEEL BETTER BY KILLING A GRAPHICALLY HUGE MONSTER BY PRESSING ONE YIFFING BUTON
Its the same think like WOW achievements, get an achievement for doing 5 quests without breaking your spine!!!
This is simply rigged to make idiots who suck feel better
And why is it FAKE??
Because it requires 0 skill, its like pressing a yiffing button in your pc and getting a reward every x time saying how skillful player you are
And another reason this is BAD, is because those single player idiots came online because games start to move online AND DEMAND YIFFING BALANCE OR "COOL" CHANGES HAVING NO IDEA THE CONCEQUENCES IN THE GAMEPLAY, AND THEY JUST WANT CHANGES SO THEY CAN "WIN" SINCE THEY CANT NOW...
BRING ME A FUCKING DEATH NOTE!!
here is an idea as to motivation
knowledge , mastery, physical seclusion, escapeism, social interaction, competition, and adiction
im thinking one or more of these applies to what ya have going on.
You have an interesting idea but present it all wrong. Ethical subjects require research and in this cause evidence that supports your theory which, in your case, are lacking.
While some persons buy their games to 'feel better' as you say it, I strongly disagree that we all do. I buy games to be entertained and I'm sure others feel the same way. You mentioned that the majority of players fit your discription but where's the proof? Do you have statistics? Your claim has no worth due to the lack of reliable evidence.
Now for my own opinion. I play online to socialize and to be entertained. If I win I do feel good, but certainly not in the way you describe. In thruth, if anyone seeks to better themselves in real life through gaming in a virtual world they should get some medical help. And I doubt that this is the case with the majority of gamers. Nevertheless, there probably are persons with this problem around but i belive they are the minority and I strongly advice them to stop gaming until their real life is sorted out.
Well in that case is alittle difficult to do that, going around asking people if they are complete idiots who dont understand games and just waste theirtime to feel better. Most dont even know they just waste money just to feel psychologically better.
What could be used as a small level proof is the amount of single player game buyers and especially in console. The people who actually play online are very few compared to the people that actually come online and play(and keep playing). Most people keep spending money on every crappy game with cool graphics and stupid marketing from a big company and only play it in sp and then just buy a new game
Multiplayer is unappealing because they lose and die, people dont like that, its not "fun", they only want to win and feel better and thats why the people who buy games and only play sp(especially in consoles) outweights online players.
Yet sadly, games are starting to force people online slowly making forums full of idiotic comments about how something is wrong because they cant "win" it.
A lot of people don't play online games simply because they do not have the time, energy along with mentality for it.
Singleplayer games require less time to learn to play and have a more in-depth interractive story. The main point is not that a person repeatedly dies, but that many games lack interractive elements online outside of making a party of human-controlled characters and killing things. Most stories are delivered through a text-interface and no one wants to read a wall of text which amounts to the same thing.
Is gaming wrong "Ethically?" I've made my points before, but I am surprised that no one challenged me enough to say "What about Sports and Sports Entertainment" like football and WWE? Sure, WWE may be scripted but it has more support and view than most professional sports due to fan involvement and more interractive elements. In the end one is part of an entity and nothing more.
What we have here is a community that is "Smartening up" and has learned that companies promise things, but deliver something totally different. There is also the fear too...Example, Where I live, one is asked about their gaming experience as part of interviews. If you answer that you like gaming and play Worlds of Warcraft often, employers think you will ditch work to play a game and are more committed to an Online Game and actually will not hire you, so you have people who play games secretly as hobbies who will refuse to talk to anyone about their gaming experiences believing they will be prejudged.
There is also a problem that while many gamers exist, few know how to play games well and people know games become politically driven social networks. This drives people to play them. If they can gain some power and dominate in the network they can feel like they are "Somebody" in the world. Everyone seems to be out for themselves these days.
A lot of people don't play online games simply because they do not have the time, energy along with mentality for it.
Singleplayer games require less time to learn to play and have a more in-depth interractive story. The main point is not that a person repeatedly dies, but that many games lack interractive elements online outside of making a party of human-controlled characters and killing things. Most stories are delivered through a text-interface and no one wants to read a wall of text which amounts to the same thing.
Is gaming wrong "Ethically?" I've made my points before, but I am surprised that no one challenged me enough to say "What about Sports and Sports Entertainment" like football and WWE? Sure, WWE may be scripted but it has more support and view than most professional sports due to fan involvement and more interractive elements. In the end one is part of an entity and nothing more.
What we have here is a community that is "Smartening up" and has learned that companies promise things, but deliver something totally different. There is also the fear too...Example, Where I live, one is asked about their gaming experience as part of interviews. If you answer that you like gaming and play Worlds of Warcraft often, employers think you will ditch work to play a game and are more committed to an Online Game and actually will not hire you, so you have people who play games secretly as hobbies who will refuse to talk to anyone about their gaming experiences believing they will be prejudged.
There is also a problem that while many gamers exist, few know how to play games well and people know games become politically driven social networks. This drives people to play them. If they can gain some power and dominate in the network they can feel like they are "Somebody" in the world. Everyone seems to be out for themselves these days.
i stopped reading after "A lot of people don't play online games simply because they do not have the time, energy along with mentality for it."
thats 100% wrong. Alot of ppl LIVE in the real world and know that gaming will bring them nowhere. Gaming stopps to improve every single aspect that u need in real live. Even language. The langugae that is used here is the lowest school grade. Not advanced or professional, ist simple basic trashed with slang.
If a guy who played 20y long games stands near one that never touched a game before, the guy with 20y game experience will loose in 9/10 challenges. Games are made simple and easy, once your brain gets used to it, you stopped improving. Gamers will stay theyr whole live in the same low lvl.
Actually the only real rpg is the real live. By playing games, u improve your avatar, but you as avatar yourself in the real world stopped improving. Spending your energie and heart in the wrong place is the worst.
I still think mmorpgs were the worst invention in the game industrie.
Why do we play games as kids? Cause its fun but they also train us. Play sports and you increase your body "stats", play lego / chess / ... to train different skillsets of your mind. Good games help you grow.
Unfortunately most games nowadays don't teach you much or even the wrong behaviour, for most mmos : if you can't instantly get what want you declare it impossible after second try and give up or wait til nerf comes which unfortunately doesnt happen irl or not like you want (getting the solution after failed test)
A lot of people don't play online games simply because they do not have the time, energy along with mentality for it.
Singleplayer games require less time to learn to play and have a more in-depth interractive story. The main point is not that a person repeatedly dies, but that many games lack interractive elements online outside of making a party of human-controlled characters and killing things. Most stories are delivered through a text-interface and no one wants to read a wall of text which amounts to the same thing.
Is gaming wrong "Ethically?" I've made my points before, but I am surprised that no one challenged me enough to say "What about Sports and Sports Entertainment" like football and WWE? Sure, WWE may be scripted but it has more support and view than most professional sports due to fan involvement and more interractive elements. In the end one is part of an entity and nothing more.
What we have here is a community that is "Smartening up" and has learned that companies promise things, but deliver something totally different. There is also the fear too...Example, Where I live, one is asked about their gaming experience as part of interviews. If you answer that you like gaming and play Worlds of Warcraft often, employers think you will ditch work to play a game and are more committed to an Online Game and actually will not hire you, so you have people who play games secretly as hobbies who will refuse to talk to anyone about their gaming experiences believing they will be prejudged.
There is also a problem that while many gamers exist, few know how to play games well and people know games become politically driven social networks. This drives people to play them. If they can gain some power and dominate in the network they can feel like they are "Somebody" in the world. Everyone seems to be out for themselves these days.
i stopped reading after "A lot of people don't play online games simply because they do not have the time, energy along with mentality for it."
thats 100% wrong. Alot of ppl LIVE in the real world and know that gaming will bring them nowhere. Gaming stopps to improve every single aspect that u need in real live. Even language. The langugae that is used here is the lowest school grade. Not advanced or professional, ist simple basic trashed with slang.
If a guy who played 20y long games stands near one that never touched a game before, the guy with 20y game experience will loose in 9/10 challenges. Games are made simple and easy, once your brain gets used to it, you stopped improving. Gamers will stay theyr whole live in the same low lvl.
Actually the only real rpg is the real live. By playing games, u improve your avatar, but you as avatar yourself in the real world stopped improving. Spending your energie and heart in the wrong place is the worst.
I still think mmorpgs were the worst invention in the game industrie.
Your statement "If X plays long games for 20 years, then X will lose in 90% of challenges to a person who has not played games"
Note: The belief here is that one will lose to another who has not played any games due to the inclusion of such element in the statement. My translation is above. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I would need to find a person who has played games for 20 years (not 19 or 21 years.) Due to the pluralization of the word "games", I would need a person who has played at least two games. Any category would do. Poker, Chess, Video Games, Puzzles, Word Games, Card Games..Sports, Any game would do (since the word "games" came with no explicit restriction.) That person will have to be Smart Enough and Friends with a person who has never played a single game in his or her life. The two have a maximum time of one year to think of 10 challenges and apply them. The challenges can be about anything, all what is required is for the person who plays games to lose 9 of them. Only through doing this will the statement be proven true.
The probability of meeting this requirement is abysmal at most.
A better statement would have been "If a person plays over eight hours daily mmorpg games for a period of twenty years, then he will stand to lose 90% of challenges against a person who has not played mmorpg games."
games started off as a cheap form of gambling with no monitary return, at least back then the games were actually games. You shouldn't be surprised that they are all mass marketed money making machines now.
And the games that are good, most of you younger/newer people don't really get them, because you're used to this mass marketed crap that comes out all the time.
Games should be fun, and if they're not, walk away from them instead of forcing yourself into a stressful situation, stress kills you and shrinks your brain, don't you know?
I found this thread interesting so I wanted to give it alot of thought. These are what I came up with, so Im sorry for the length of it
As a kid my family played board games, cards, dice ones such as Yahtzee. They were a means to socialize with each other. I met my husband and he introduced me to the pen and paper role playing games (think D&D and other similiar titles) though I never actually sat down and played anything except for Battletech and that was only once or twice.
Through various family members I learned of different console games. My husband and I would play those together by taking turns with the controllers. Video games became a way for us to spend quality time together both with each other and with friends.
He wanted a computer so we finally got one but it was with a proviso that i added - our computer had to be used for other things than just being a 'glorified Nintendo' so in other words - not just for fun.
We would both play single player games. His choices were far more difficult to play than mine - I simply dont have the hand eye coordination needed to play MOST games on the market. But that was okay because there were other things on the market that I could play (such as 3DO's Might and Magic and Heroes of Might and Magic series). Then we began playing games such as Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights with each other and with friends.
When I read the title of this thread I was expecting this discussion to go into a very different direction. One of our friends had a huge problem with gaming because of the religious views that she has. And she wasnt the only one. Many people that profess to have faith seem to have a problem with all games - especially video games whether on a pc or a console. If someone goes out and does something horrible to themselves or someone else its sad - but if they were a video game player then it was all the games fault. Im sure you all have heard that before. She would definately without a doubt say that gaming is ethically wrong but not for any of the reasons listed here.
So what makes me play them? What is my motivation? Why do I pick up a computer game before I pick up a console game? This thread made me ask those kinds of questions.
I for the most part play MMO's now - until SWG I didnt even know those kinds of games existed.
I suppose I play them because I think its neat that I can meet up with people from all over the world. Both people I knew in real life and those people I dont. When my real life brothers played EQ2 it was a way of keeping up with them without anyone running up a phone bill, yet still be able to do things together. The time I spent logged in there means alot now since 1 of the 2 brothers I played that game with passed away in October of last year. It makes it hard to log in to EQ2 because it reminds me of times spent with him. So my not playing that one as often as I did really has nothing to do with gameplay or the playerbase in general.
On a different note I like the creativity that some games offer to me. In SWG I play an entertainer with my main and I would put on comedy routines. While they were performed at various ingame events it took time offline to actually write the routines. In the Sims series I love designing houses (Im interested in that in real life as well and when I took a course on it I got honors).
When I first started SWG (as I said that was my first mmo) I played it with the ideology of "how can I make the gameplay of the people around me enjoyable"? That caused me to take up master doctor/master musician. It also made me make other choices - like staying a bounty hunter when everyone else was going for jedi (to check for names on the bh terminal) or becoming mayor of our city when no one else had the points to put into it. Just two examples. The way I figured it - people had limited time to spend in that world. Might as well make it as enjoyable as possible. And trust me - that is NOT an easy thing to do all the time.
I also like the exploration factor. MMO worlds for the most part are not static like single player or console games are - there are always new places being added to explore.
I dont play the games to win anything because in the Sims there IS no competition. Same with Second Life. It has its enjoyable parts but none of it is competition based for me. I dont have a problem with pvp being in a game because I know some people enjoy that.
I do think that sometimes peoples attitudes are wrong when playing a game though. If they insist that they must break the rules of the game in order to win then thats a wrong attitude. Being insulting to someone because they have a different gameplay style than them is another. We are all genuine people and many players seem to forget that and check their manners at log in. So I think if any gaming is wrong then I think its more related to THOSE kinds of things rather than gameplay or how they are marketed.
If the players around you have a great attitude its amazing how fun a game can be even if its the worst game ever created. But if a person has a bad attitude - well - games become irrelevent. It WILL come out in other aspects of their life whether they play games are not and THOSE actions can be judged much easier when it comes to acceptable ethics.
While writing this I thought back to the Columbine High School shootings. What those two boys did was horrible. For them to think that this was an acceptable route to take was extremely difficult for people closest to the situation and the people involved. But one thing I do remember from that whole thing was many reporters made mention that they played a video game - like that somehow was relevent to the fact that the boys were unstable both mentally and emotionally.
Bottom line is - as children we enjoy playing. Its fun. We pretend, play make believe and play games of all kinds. But MOST children grow up and become productive members of society with jobs, families, and other responsibilities. Sometimes a game is necessary to just unwind and recharge after a long day.
Sometimes people make a living becoming a game designer. It then takes on a new element. We as game players can afford to play these games for other reasons. They cant. And a game company is no different than any other corporation. Is that ethically wrong? To want to make money? Not a bit. Money provides you with food, clothing and shelter and provides those things for others that depend on you for them such as children. Money is a necessary evil in todays world. If someone makes it by doing the best job they know how to do, by not breaking any laws or really hurting anyone then thats not ethically wrong regardless of what legitimate job title they have.
Gaming isnt wrong just dont let it like any other entertainment rule your life or be the only thing you do. Theres nothing wrong with escaping reality at times to get your mind off things but dont let it suck you completly in. My 5 yr old nephew loves video games and sometimes thats all he wants to do. I think parents need to teach there kids restraint in some areas if they dont they will sit in front of screens all day wether it be tv or a video game. Theres alot of things to do and see in the real world besides being glued to a screen 24/7. As technology advances I personally hope we never see virtual reality because some people would never leave the house. We have to be careful about how we use technology or it may end up ruling us. Hundreds and Thousands of years ago people didnt have what we do now, even 60 years ago tv had just came about. What did they do to pass the time.. arts/crafts, reading, farming, exercise etc all without being tied to the electron and the switch. Video game addiction can be very real and theres alot of people whos lifes/family life/friendships/jobs suffer because of it. Like anything else try to have moderation in everything.
Comments
Just find a game that is worthy of your time and find the time that is worthy of your game. Q: How much time do I have and do I have any good games?
...it's not a riddle!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I didn't read all of what you posted but no, I don't think it is. Think of gaming as just another form of entertainment, and entertainment isn't wrong at all. Its kind of like going to the movies or eating out.
And when it comes to developers making these games to fish the money out of your pocket, thats just called capitalism. Is it wrong? Of course it isn't, in fact, it stimulates the economy!
You also stated that video gaming waste of time. Thats a matter of opinion in which I completely disagree with you. I enjoy it, so its not a waste of my time.
Games are wrong.
So is cake.
exceptions =/= rules.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Didn't read the entire thread... but here.
Gaming is not ethically wrong, it just isnt. People buy games to be entertained and happy and get lost in a different world. Sounds like drugs right? Happy and lost in another world. Well so does reading a book. And a movie. Hell people work so that they can be happy and live in a better free world. If games are ethically wrong, then so is every other pursuit of happiness.
Drugs are wrong MAINLY because of violence. You hever hear of gangs killing each other over WoW? Didn't think so.
Honestly though, this post is just kinda stupid. You're basically asking, is it wrong to want happiness.
How do you know that is any different then reality?
Maybe one day your going to die and damn that is all that was?
Video games satisfy the need for adventure and exploration that I think every person wants. No one wants to live a stale life, doing nothing every day. Video games fill a void that can currently is not easily filled. The ages of exploration are long gone, and one can not just dive into the unknown as they once could.
We have a little bit of Earth to explore further; the depths of the ocean. After that, we wait idly for new technology to allow us to explore the abyss that is space. I for one cant wait until I can stop pretending to adventure and actually be able to do it. (Call me a nerd if you want, but if I have a chance in my life time, I will sacrifice everything to have my own ship and crew.)
Are video games wrong? because they have in cases ruined peoples lives. Is beer wrong? because in cases it has ruined peoples lives. Is food wrong? because in cases it has ruined peoples lives. Is sex wrong? because in cases it has ruined peoples lives. Is TV wrong? because there are cases where it has ruined peoples lives? Are cars wrong? because there are cases where they have ruined peoples lives. etc!
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Sigh, that starts to get depressing. Everyone doesnt read the thread and everyone just answers negatively or positively without taking into account my main point.
My main point is:
Why the majority of people dont play online? Cause they die, they die again and again and again. And dieing inst fun, they simply want to win, and if they cant win they get disapointed and stop playing(really small % tries to improve). But u can always keep them happy in the fake "fun" of single player(and thats where the majority of market is)
Main point, AI IS COMPLETELY DUMB, ITS ONLY REASON TO EXIST IS TO MAKE IDIOTS FEEL BETTER BY KILLING A GRAPHICALLY HUGE MONSTER BY PRESSING ONE YIFFING BUTON
Its the same think like WOW achievements, get an achievement for doing 5 quests without breaking your spine!!!
This is simply rigged to make idiots who suck feel better
And why is it FAKE??
Because it requires 0 skill, its like pressing a yiffing button in your pc and getting a reward every x time saying how skillful player you are
And another reason this is BAD, is because those single player idiots came online because games start to move online AND DEMAND YIFFING BALANCE OR "COOL" CHANGES HAVING NO IDEA THE CONCEQUENCES IN THE GAMEPLAY, AND THEY JUST WANT CHANGES SO THEY CAN "WIN" SINCE THEY CANT NOW...
BRING ME A FUCKING DEATH NOTE!!
Free game with item mall is way more greedy than monthly subscription.
Subscription: Fairness no matter what
Purpose for free game with item mall is:
It encourage you to play it and hope you like it and once u hit brickwall and u really wanted stuff in item mall, makes you bring your wallet and buy it... once your "coin or token" runs out... you bring out wallet again... unlimit spending on item mall than monthly subscription. Yet you can lose the item after you purchase from IM. Its no guarantee that you will get what u want from Item mall anyway which is "casino".
Subscription way cheaper than free game with item mall!
Kain_Dale
Thats what PvP is for... competeting skills against each other.. Just like sports... Tennis, swimming, Tracks. Why people play gaming to make money like Fatal1ty? Cuz its a sport!
Competeting against AI is just boring. Which is why end game is always about Pvp cuz AI isnt good anymore.
Kain_Dale
OP, you need to chill, or maybe just laugh at something about dumb AI, and no-risk for "reward".
Here: http://bogost.com/games/cow_clicker.shtml
Cow-clicker kind of proves your point, but in a funnier way.
And I still don't agree that gaming is "wrong" - look at something like the success of Demon Souls or Minecraft to see that not all gamers are (a) skill-less, creativity free, click-junkies and (b) not all game companies are catering to the "no-risk, all reward" crowd.
Mayhap you need to expand your horizons a bit? Not everything adheres to the skinner-box mentality of most MMOs.
Well the majority of people who buy games are aka the biggest % of the market
I said in op that i always leave a small % for exceptions in everything but this thread is talking about the masses
P.S. i am still need a death note
Hey, I like your reply...
I am a gamer and there are many areas of it. An example being that I am a tournament gamer. I enter regional tournaments, global tournametns and play in Leagues. On the other side I like a lot of singleplayer games and some MMOs out there. I care more about admiring some nice implementation, graphics and story. I care more for people who are playing a game with me, or in singleplayer the character development.
Your reply asks the question "When is a game, no longer a game" or "How is existence defined" which isn't a bad approach. However I should clarify and make a point.
I have been part of four Games where in the United States their "Servers" died. I bought the game, paid the subscription fees and after a few years, they died. All the time raising characters, my friends in-game...and the environment and attitude --All Gone! I played them in Japan where they had full updates and still it wasn't the same. Some experiences were good, but starting over sucked. I asked myself "why did I even played localized versions?" and decided I would only play original versions of MMOs from now on.
The point is that if I wanted to play those games in the US again, either I have to find a private server or I am screwed. All I have now are memories of those games I played as well as some shooters which come and go. As far as entertainment goes, games change, people change and the idea remains the same. I understand that...but the dependency is still there...
The gain is not much because although I have many stories of wins, loses, joy and heatbreak the majority in the real world can care less about hearing about those stories unless they are gamers themselves and thinking back one wonders why games were lost and gained...
Now I've been an active musician for thirteen years and I can tell you that there is always room to improve. New songs to write, new places to go and I can say "I am better now than I was back then" but you can't do that for gaming. In gaming you can only judge on how well you carry yourself game to game and once its gone, its gone. I can walk into a room with my experiences of being thrown into a mosh pit, having a bottle smash my face in one performance, have my car flatten out in the middle of a violent neighborhood and traveling to many different nations and experiencing things due to music.....which as far as gaming goes, all I can do is tell a story that amounts to "experiences I obtained from sitting my ass off in a chair and doing things with people online"
Gaming is like Sugar, we all love how sweet it can be and are tempted by it, but in the end its still an "Empty Calorie"
@ OP
You have an interesting idea but present it all wrong. Ethical subjects require research and in this cause evidence that supports your theory which, in your case, are lacking.
While some persons buy their games to 'feel better' as you say it, I strongly disagree that we all do. I buy games to be entertained and I'm sure others feel the same way. You mentioned that the majority of players fit your discription but where's the proof? Do you have statistics? Your claim has no worth due to the lack of reliable evidence.
Now for my own opinion. I play online to socialize and to be entertained. If I win I do feel good, but certainly not in the way you describe. In thruth, if anyone seeks to better themselves in real life through gaming in a virtual world they should get some medical help. And I doubt that this is the case with the majority of gamers. Nevertheless, there probably are persons with this problem around but i belive they are the minority and I strongly advice them to stop gaming until their real life is sorted out.
here is an idea as to motivation
knowledge , mastery, physical seclusion, escapeism, social interaction, competition, and adiction
im thinking one or more of these applies to what ya have going on.
Well in that case is alittle difficult to do that, going around asking people if they are complete idiots who dont understand games and just waste theirtime to feel better. Most dont even know they just waste money just to feel psychologically better.
What could be used as a small level proof is the amount of single player game buyers and especially in console. The people who actually play online are very few compared to the people that actually come online and play(and keep playing). Most people keep spending money on every crappy game with cool graphics and stupid marketing from a big company and only play it in sp and then just buy a new game
Multiplayer is unappealing because they lose and die, people dont like that, its not "fun", they only want to win and feel better and thats why the people who buy games and only play sp(especially in consoles) outweights online players.
Yet sadly, games are starting to force people online slowly making forums full of idiotic comments about how something is wrong because they cant "win" it.
Wolfy.
A lot of people don't play online games simply because they do not have the time, energy along with mentality for it.
Singleplayer games require less time to learn to play and have a more in-depth interractive story. The main point is not that a person repeatedly dies, but that many games lack interractive elements online outside of making a party of human-controlled characters and killing things. Most stories are delivered through a text-interface and no one wants to read a wall of text which amounts to the same thing.
Is gaming wrong "Ethically?" I've made my points before, but I am surprised that no one challenged me enough to say "What about Sports and Sports Entertainment" like football and WWE? Sure, WWE may be scripted but it has more support and view than most professional sports due to fan involvement and more interractive elements. In the end one is part of an entity and nothing more.
What we have here is a community that is "Smartening up" and has learned that companies promise things, but deliver something totally different. There is also the fear too...Example, Where I live, one is asked about their gaming experience as part of interviews. If you answer that you like gaming and play Worlds of Warcraft often, employers think you will ditch work to play a game and are more committed to an Online Game and actually will not hire you, so you have people who play games secretly as hobbies who will refuse to talk to anyone about their gaming experiences believing they will be prejudged.
There is also a problem that while many gamers exist, few know how to play games well and people know games become politically driven social networks. This drives people to play them. If they can gain some power and dominate in the network they can feel like they are "Somebody" in the world. Everyone seems to be out for themselves these days.
i stopped reading after "A lot of people don't play online games simply because they do not have the time, energy along with mentality for it."
thats 100% wrong. Alot of ppl LIVE in the real world and know that gaming will bring them nowhere. Gaming stopps to improve every single aspect that u need in real live. Even language. The langugae that is used here is the lowest school grade. Not advanced or professional, ist simple basic trashed with slang.
If a guy who played 20y long games stands near one that never touched a game before, the guy with 20y game experience will loose in 9/10 challenges. Games are made simple and easy, once your brain gets used to it, you stopped improving. Gamers will stay theyr whole live in the same low lvl.
Actually the only real rpg is the real live. By playing games, u improve your avatar, but you as avatar yourself in the real world stopped improving. Spending your energie and heart in the wrong place is the worst.
I still think mmorpgs were the worst invention in the game industrie.
Why do we play games as kids? Cause its fun but they also train us. Play sports and you increase your body "stats", play lego / chess / ... to train different skillsets of your mind. Good games help you grow.
Unfortunately most games nowadays don't teach you much or even the wrong behaviour, for most mmos : if you can't instantly get what want you declare it impossible after second try and give up or wait til nerf comes which unfortunately doesnt happen irl or not like you want (getting the solution after failed test)
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Your statement "If X plays long games for 20 years, then X will lose in 90% of challenges to a person who has not played games"
Note: The belief here is that one will lose to another who has not played any games due to the inclusion of such element in the statement. My translation is above. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I would need to find a person who has played games for 20 years (not 19 or 21 years.) Due to the pluralization of the word "games", I would need a person who has played at least two games. Any category would do. Poker, Chess, Video Games, Puzzles, Word Games, Card Games..Sports, Any game would do (since the word "games" came with no explicit restriction.) That person will have to be Smart Enough and Friends with a person who has never played a single game in his or her life. The two have a maximum time of one year to think of 10 challenges and apply them. The challenges can be about anything, all what is required is for the person who plays games to lose 9 of them. Only through doing this will the statement be proven true.
The probability of meeting this requirement is abysmal at most.
A better statement would have been "If a person plays over eight hours daily mmorpg games for a period of twenty years, then he will stand to lose 90% of challenges against a person who has not played mmorpg games."
games started off as a cheap form of gambling with no monitary return, at least back then the games were actually games. You shouldn't be surprised that they are all mass marketed money making machines now.
And the games that are good, most of you younger/newer people don't really get them, because you're used to this mass marketed crap that comes out all the time.
Games should be fun, and if they're not, walk away from them instead of forcing yourself into a stressful situation, stress kills you and shrinks your brain, don't you know?
PLAY WURM ONLINE!! www.wurmonline.com
I found this thread interesting so I wanted to give it alot of thought. These are what I came up with, so Im sorry for the length of it
As a kid my family played board games, cards, dice ones such as Yahtzee. They were a means to socialize with each other. I met my husband and he introduced me to the pen and paper role playing games (think D&D and other similiar titles) though I never actually sat down and played anything except for Battletech and that was only once or twice.
Through various family members I learned of different console games. My husband and I would play those together by taking turns with the controllers. Video games became a way for us to spend quality time together both with each other and with friends.
He wanted a computer so we finally got one but it was with a proviso that i added - our computer had to be used for other things than just being a 'glorified Nintendo' so in other words - not just for fun.
We would both play single player games. His choices were far more difficult to play than mine - I simply dont have the hand eye coordination needed to play MOST games on the market. But that was okay because there were other things on the market that I could play (such as 3DO's Might and Magic and Heroes of Might and Magic series). Then we began playing games such as Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights with each other and with friends.
When I read the title of this thread I was expecting this discussion to go into a very different direction. One of our friends had a huge problem with gaming because of the religious views that she has. And she wasnt the only one. Many people that profess to have faith seem to have a problem with all games - especially video games whether on a pc or a console. If someone goes out and does something horrible to themselves or someone else its sad - but if they were a video game player then it was all the games fault. Im sure you all have heard that before. She would definately without a doubt say that gaming is ethically wrong but not for any of the reasons listed here.
So what makes me play them? What is my motivation? Why do I pick up a computer game before I pick up a console game? This thread made me ask those kinds of questions.
I for the most part play MMO's now - until SWG I didnt even know those kinds of games existed.
I suppose I play them because I think its neat that I can meet up with people from all over the world. Both people I knew in real life and those people I dont. When my real life brothers played EQ2 it was a way of keeping up with them without anyone running up a phone bill, yet still be able to do things together. The time I spent logged in there means alot now since 1 of the 2 brothers I played that game with passed away in October of last year. It makes it hard to log in to EQ2 because it reminds me of times spent with him. So my not playing that one as often as I did really has nothing to do with gameplay or the playerbase in general.
On a different note I like the creativity that some games offer to me. In SWG I play an entertainer with my main and I would put on comedy routines. While they were performed at various ingame events it took time offline to actually write the routines. In the Sims series I love designing houses (Im interested in that in real life as well and when I took a course on it I got honors).
When I first started SWG (as I said that was my first mmo) I played it with the ideology of "how can I make the gameplay of the people around me enjoyable"? That caused me to take up master doctor/master musician. It also made me make other choices - like staying a bounty hunter when everyone else was going for jedi (to check for names on the bh terminal) or becoming mayor of our city when no one else had the points to put into it. Just two examples. The way I figured it - people had limited time to spend in that world. Might as well make it as enjoyable as possible. And trust me - that is NOT an easy thing to do all the time.
I also like the exploration factor. MMO worlds for the most part are not static like single player or console games are - there are always new places being added to explore.
I dont play the games to win anything because in the Sims there IS no competition. Same with Second Life. It has its enjoyable parts but none of it is competition based for me. I dont have a problem with pvp being in a game because I know some people enjoy that.
I do think that sometimes peoples attitudes are wrong when playing a game though. If they insist that they must break the rules of the game in order to win then thats a wrong attitude. Being insulting to someone because they have a different gameplay style than them is another. We are all genuine people and many players seem to forget that and check their manners at log in. So I think if any gaming is wrong then I think its more related to THOSE kinds of things rather than gameplay or how they are marketed.
If the players around you have a great attitude its amazing how fun a game can be even if its the worst game ever created. But if a person has a bad attitude - well - games become irrelevent. It WILL come out in other aspects of their life whether they play games are not and THOSE actions can be judged much easier when it comes to acceptable ethics.
While writing this I thought back to the Columbine High School shootings. What those two boys did was horrible. For them to think that this was an acceptable route to take was extremely difficult for people closest to the situation and the people involved. But one thing I do remember from that whole thing was many reporters made mention that they played a video game - like that somehow was relevent to the fact that the boys were unstable both mentally and emotionally.
Bottom line is - as children we enjoy playing. Its fun. We pretend, play make believe and play games of all kinds. But MOST children grow up and become productive members of society with jobs, families, and other responsibilities. Sometimes a game is necessary to just unwind and recharge after a long day.
Sometimes people make a living becoming a game designer. It then takes on a new element. We as game players can afford to play these games for other reasons. They cant. And a game company is no different than any other corporation. Is that ethically wrong? To want to make money? Not a bit. Money provides you with food, clothing and shelter and provides those things for others that depend on you for them such as children. Money is a necessary evil in todays world. If someone makes it by doing the best job they know how to do, by not breaking any laws or really hurting anyone then thats not ethically wrong regardless of what legitimate job title they have.
Yhishara, that was beautifully put.
Thanks for taking the time to type that out and to share your experiences.
I hope logging into EQ2 becomes easier for you over time, more a celebration of your time with your brother than a reminder of his passing.
Gaming isnt wrong just dont let it like any other entertainment rule your life or be the only thing you do. Theres nothing wrong with escaping reality at times to get your mind off things but dont let it suck you completly in. My 5 yr old nephew loves video games and sometimes thats all he wants to do. I think parents need to teach there kids restraint in some areas if they dont they will sit in front of screens all day wether it be tv or a video game. Theres alot of things to do and see in the real world besides being glued to a screen 24/7. As technology advances I personally hope we never see virtual reality because some people would never leave the house. We have to be careful about how we use technology or it may end up ruling us. Hundreds and Thousands of years ago people didnt have what we do now, even 60 years ago tv had just came about. What did they do to pass the time.. arts/crafts, reading, farming, exercise etc all without being tied to the electron and the switch. Video game addiction can be very real and theres alot of people whos lifes/family life/friendships/jobs suffer because of it. Like anything else try to have moderation in everything.