The Trinity Does Exist! It is important to note that over 60% of the souls fall under the DPS category.
" Rift does offer an in-depth class system so not every warrior is a tank, cleric healer and mage/rogue dps. You can run a dungeon with three rogues, a cleric and a mage and do well. You can do it with a warrior, 2 mages, 2 rogues and many more combinations than just that"
This is almost worst. Two points. 1, this is based off the opinion of someone who has only experienced the few low level dungeons in the game. No one knows how it scales. 2, IF this is true, then it says something about the quality and design of the dungeons. It means they are mostly tank and spank ordeals. It can also mean that any class/role doesnt really do anything very well. So its a question of design consequences and whether or not its a good thing or a bad thing towards end game.
I cannot see how it would mean every dungeons are tank and spank.
The Trinity Does Exist! It is important to note that over 60% of the souls fall under the DPS category.
" Rift does offer an in-depth class system so not every warrior is a tank, cleric healer and mage/rogue dps. You can run a dungeon with three rogues, a cleric and a mage and do well. You can do it with a warrior, 2 mages, 2 rogues and many more combinations than just that"
This is almost worst. Two points. 1, this is based off the opinion of someone who has only experienced the few low level dungeons in the game. No one knows how it scales. 2, IF this is true, then it says something about the quality and design of the dungeons. It means they are mostly tank and spank ordeals. It can also mean that any class/role doesnt really do anything very well. So its a question of design consequences and whether or not its a good thing or a bad thing towards end game.
I cannot see how it would mean every dungeons are tank and spank.
What part were you not able to understand. I can elaborate on "No one knows how it scales" If you think its necessary, though I dont think it is as it should be fairly obvious to anyone who understands the English language.
Also notice the "IF". IF a dungeon can be done with any mashup of characters of any class, then it says something about how the dungeons are designed. I'll let that sink in. Let me know if you still dont get it.
The Trinity Does Exist! It is important to note that over 60% of the souls fall under the DPS category.
" Rift does offer an in-depth class system so not every warrior is a tank, cleric healer and mage/rogue dps. You can run a dungeon with three rogues, a cleric and a mage and do well. You can do it with a warrior, 2 mages, 2 rogues and many more combinations than just that"
This is almost worst. Two points. 1, this is based off the opinion of someone who has only experienced the few low level dungeons in the game. No one knows how it scales. 2, IF this is true, then it says something about the quality and design of the dungeons. It means they are mostly tank and spank ordeals. It can also mean that any class/role doesnt really do anything very well. So its a question of design consequences and whether or not its a good thing or a bad thing towards end game.
I cannot see how it would mean every dungeons are tank and spank.
What part were you not able to understand. I can elaborate on "No one knows how it scales" If you think its necessary, though I dont think it is as it should be fairly obvious to anyone who understands the English language.
Also notice the "IF". IF a dungeon can be done with any mashup of characters of any class, then it says something about how the dungeons are designed. I'll let that sink in. Let me know if you still dont get it.
You do realize there are numerous people who are testing the endgame content and know how it scales, right? There are two versions of Rift being tested right now, and one is 24/7 of testers who have been testing the endgame since Alpha.
What part were you not able to understand. I can elaborate on "No one knows how it scales" If you think its necessary, though I dont think it is as it should be fairly obvious to anyone who understands the English language.
Also notice the "IF". IF a dungeon can be done with any mashup of characters of any class, then it says something about how the dungeons are designed. I'll let that sink in. Let me know if you still dont get it.
Unsurprisingly, the value of your answer is near null. Along with a good share of Ad Hominem attacks. It tells a lot about the quality of your rethoric.
Holy Trinity?! What is that like the 3 souls you get?
One person could be their own holy trinity (cleric), you can be one roll in one fight, another in the next....Soul system is a silly complaint against Rift, as you can redefine your roll on the fly.
Only instanced dungeons...crafting system could use more depth, waiting to see what purpose their is to open world pvp....I can buy that.
As long as you take damage in a game, you need to be able to heal, the ability to take damage, and the ability to damage...Crazy isn't it? So what according to that chart, broken down into 4 parts,
Clerics 3/4
Mages 3/4
Warriors 2/4
Rogues 3/4
So Cleric can be holy trinity, and 2 people can be the immortal quad! So limiting.
I haven't seen any evidence to this gimping, sure you can gimp yourself, but I have seen people complain how good of tanks rogues and clerics can be...Does that hold up at 50? Don't know, but haven't seen that it doesn't....As for the repurcusions...who knows...People want new, and cry when they get it.....
optimal =/ doable
Some people can't stand sour in their sweet, just as some can't stand sweet in their sour.
I don't get how people can complain about the soul system either. Name a system that gives you more viable options?
Right now I see about 6 or so viable builds with Warden as a main soul. If we consider each soul to have only 3-4 viable builds, then we still have over 100 viable builds to work with here. That really is quite a bit more than any other game.
There are going non-viable builds (EX: mixing too much Paragon with Champion, mixing too much Cabalist with melee Cleric souls, etc.) and there is definitely an agruement here for some souls being similar enough to be combined into one soul (EX: Elementalist and Pyromancer, Assassin and Nightblade, Ranger and Marksman), but for the most part I think we all can at least acknowledge the soul system is an improvement over most MMOs currently.
If you agrue a classless system is a better way to go and has more viable builds, well that usually isn't the case. Most games that have classless systems like Darkfall or UO wind up having extremely limited endgame builds - as in one - Tank Mage.
It's true the soul system isn't exactly entirely innovative. It's very similar to WoW's talent trees and lots of other MMOs that use a similar system, but the soul system itself is a huge evolution in this system, as it gives far more options (viable ones) than previous MMOs that used similar systems.
To continue my rant. RIFT might be a great well polished traditional MMO and I think that is great but from a GAME perspective its FAR from next generation.
Next Gen? Arche Age (although to be frank even Darkfall or EvE for that matter).
skill system only, seige mechanics, naval combat, craftable homes cities and strongholds, farms, clan controlled regions, group crafting, dynamic lore, dynamic mobs. That is the new standard.
In short, if your game is not a FPS view of you as a character in an RTS game, its not next gen as far as I am concerned.
The Trinity Does Exist! It is important to note that over 60% of the souls fall under the DPS category.
" Rift does offer an in-depth class system so not every warrior is a tank, cleric healer and mage/rogue dps. You can run a dungeon with three rogues, a cleric and a mage and do well. You can do it with a warrior, 2 mages, 2 rogues and many more combinations than just that"
This is almost worst. Two points. 1, this is based off the opinion of someone who has only experienced the few low level dungeons in the game. No one knows how it scales. 2, IF this is true, then it says something about the quality and design of the dungeons. It means they are mostly tank and spank ordeals. It can also mean that any class/role doesnt really do anything very well. So its a question of design consequences and whether or not its a good thing or a bad thing towards end game.
True enough. In a high level dungeon in current MMOs, if you are not using the trinity you have only 2 options. 1, a big bad zerg with potions being spammed left and right. 2, constant agro trading between group members. Option 1 is better off with button smashing action MMOs, mostly F2P like Divine Soul. Option 2 is also not for Rift, considering it will force players to play at 120% of their capacity all the times. Rift is not and will never be that much hardcore if they are trying to overthrow the mainstream WoW as shown in their cheeky trailer.
I do not expect Trion to try something outside of the trinity. I just hope they will make the tank to reduce the boss damage, not completely absorb it. The tank then doesn't have to annoy the boss all the times so it will not hit the group. The rest can be taken care of with group coordinations ,moving and healing. That's 1 big step ahead to the true next-gen.
Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but we are still in the Everquest gen., so we are in the same gen for more than ten years now, get over it.
. . .yea. . .I love this EQ generation where the servers can be laden with new, fresh, never-seen content that is scripted by the devs, but dynamic and surprising to the player-base without a client patch.
1. pushing content that we haven't seen before with Rifts that spawn invasions and take over your city and quest locations.
2. alot of game computation and physics handled server side to free up people's PC specs a bit.
3. new use of server load balancing to compensate for a large number of players in 1 location so that there is no lag on server side.
4. character flexability enuff to allow for easy grouping mechanics and breaking the old problem of needing a roll filled.
5. first game since WoW days that successfully took from all the previous titles and put them into a newer better package.
So there you have it. Several reasons why Rift kicks ass.
I am sure there will be some people that dissagree here but since Next Gen is subjective to opinion and not easily definable, I am perfectly happy with the above reasons.
Other game that kicks ass is Arche Age.
Examples of Arche Age kicking ass are
1. Many doors, bridges, boats, etc are able to be destroyed
2. the use of physics in the game are taken to the next level not seen yet in games.
3. incorporates realistic housing production.
there are still some unknown details about Arche Age but just those listed there are great to start.
So there are two solid next gen games. I also think that the success of a game is important as well so we can't give a full kick ass stamp until a game crosses at least the 6 month mark with healthy subscription base. I believe both Arche Age and Rift will not have a problem holding subs for a long time.
You do realize there are numerous people who are testing the endgame content and know how it scales, right? There are two versions of Rift being tested right now, and one is 24/7 of testers who have been testing the endgame since Alpha.
You do realize that those participating in alpha, which from what i hear was never open to public application but through Trion's own contacts, is still under NDA.
If one is not supposed to discuss alpha, then why, logically, should that be taken into consideration. What if I was in Alpha, then would you invalidate the points I have made previously? See it goes both ways. The point is that regardless of if someone is in alpha or not, the NDA is there and you cannot assume to take that into consideration for every single post in this thread.
Originally posted by Emhster
Originally posted by Rabenwolf
What part were you not able to understand. I can elaborate on "No one knows how it scales" If you think its necessary, though I dont think it is as it should be fairly obvious to anyone who understands the English language.
Also notice the "IF". IF a dungeon can be done with any mashup of characters of any class, then it says something about how the dungeons are designed. I'll let that sink in. Let me know if you still dont get it.
Unsurprisingly, the value of your answer is near null. Along with a good share of Ad Hominem attacks. It tells a lot about the quality of your rethoric.
Unsurprisingly, you use "ad hominem" every other response post. Do you think using it honestly invalidates a post or makes you automatically belittle the person you respond to? You are not even using it in a relevant manner. What next, claims of my posts being hegemonic? Good grief. Your bias would result in ad hominem as well, if that were true. Hypocrisy much?
You dont even address the content of my post. Thats all I ask. If you choose to ignore the content of the post and choose instead to let your bias against me personally reflect on your response (as well as reading comprehension), then theres nothing I can do but point out the wording used. In this case I used non absolutes, leaving room for it to be different. "IF"s and "No one knows".
If you want me to elaborate I will, as I said, but lay off the personal attacks. I know you target me for some reason but lets tone it down a bit please.
Sorry to burst your bubble guys, but we are still in the Everquest gen., so we are in the same gen for more than ten years now, get over it.
. . .yea. . .I love this EQ generation where the servers can be laden with new, fresh, never-seen content that is scripted by the devs, but dynamic and surprising to the player-base without a client patch.
You do realize there are numerous people who are testing the endgame content and know how it scales, right? There are two versions of Rift being tested right now, and one is 24/7 of testers who have been testing the endgame since Alpha.
You do realize that those participating in alpha, which from what i hear was never open to public application but through Trion's own contacts, is still under NDA.
If one is not supposed to discuss alpha, then why, logically, should that be taken into consideration. What if I was in Alpha, then would you invalidate the points I have made previously? See it goes both ways. The point is that regardless of if someone is in alpha or not, the NDA is there and you cannot assume to take that into consideration for every single post in this thread.
It was just in response to "nobody knows how it scales". There are people who do know. It's also pretty obvious that no matter how many NDA and preventitive measures you have in place information will get leaked. There may be people who are in Alpha here that do know even if they haven't posted directly that they are in Alpha or discussed things that are specifically in the Alpha build.
Still, we can also take into consideration what we do know if we played the beta which isn't under NDA. Sure it's only 27 levels and not endgame content, but we still have experience in the game at early levels to be able to make a decent judgement about how viable different builds are. At 27 there are some viable builds, some overpowered builds, and some underpowered builds, and currently it seems like there are a huge amount of options (we can also look further into the trees and theorycraft too) for viable specs (over 100 already in my opinion). Doesn't mean we won't be wrong, it won't change in the coming patches, etc., but we sure can speculate right now.
I am not sure what the 4th generation will be.Maybe TOR, GW2 or WoDO have enough new ideas to valid fir a 4th gen title, maybe it instead will be something that is a mix between a game and a social page al
Sure, the technology that they use, maybe next-gen! Indeed, sounds very good. However hat does not mean that game itself has anything new. Yea, cool "souls" idea, but that is not enough for me to buy the game. From what I have seen from beta- it's the same sweet, different wrapper.
Unsurprisingly, you use "ad hominem" every other response post. Do you think using it honestly invalidates a post or makes you automatically belittle the person you respond to? You are not even using it in a relevant manner. What next, claims of my posts being hegemonic? Good grief. Your bias would result in ad hominem as well, if that were true. Hypocrisy much?
You dont even address the content of my post. Thats all I ask. If you choose to ignore the content of the post and choose instead to let your bias against me personally reflect on your response (as well as reading comprehension), then theres nothing I can do but point out the wording used. In this case I used non absolutes, leaving room for it to be different. "IF"s and "No one knows".
If you want me to elaborate I will, as I said, but lay off the personal attacks. I know you target me for some reason but lets tone it down a bit please.
Yes, you only posted Ad Hominem, insinuating I'm too slow to understand or questionning my understanding of English. And you always seem to be doing so when I try to understand your logic. Sometimes you end up writing your thoughts, but yes, you last post didn't have any answer to my original question.
So you are not ready to have anyone questionning your claims, and you feel we belittle you when we reject your numerous Ad Hominem?
Unsurprisingly, you use "ad hominem" every other response post. Do you think using it honestly invalidates a post or makes you automatically belittle the person you respond to? You are not even using it in a relevant manner. What next, claims of my posts being hegemonic? Good grief. Your bias would result in ad hominem as well, if that were true. Hypocrisy much?
You dont even address the content of my post. Thats all I ask. If you choose to ignore the content of the post and choose instead to let your bias against me personally reflect on your response (as well as reading comprehension), then theres nothing I can do but point out the wording used. In this case I used non absolutes, leaving room for it to be different. "IF"s and "No one knows".
If you want me to elaborate I will, as I said, but lay off the personal attacks. I know you target me for some reason but lets tone it down a bit please.
Yes, you only posted Ad Hominem, insinuating I'm too slow to understand or questionning my understanding of English. And you always seem to be doing so when I try to understand your logic. Sometimes you end up writing your thoughts, but yes, you last post didn't have any answer to my original question.
So you are not ready to have anyone questionning your claims, and you feel we belittle you when we reject your numerous Ad Hominem?
Neither one of you are using ad hominem correctly. Ad hominem is not about personal attacks, it's a fallacious logical argument trying to link the validity of an argument to a personal characteristic. Furthermore using an ad hominem tu quoque only further invalidates a logical argument based on personal attacks.
Unsurprisingly, you use "ad hominem" every other response post. Do you think using it honestly invalidates a post or makes you automatically belittle the person you respond to? You are not even using it in a relevant manner. What next, claims of my posts being hegemonic? Good grief. Your bias would result in ad hominem as well, if that were true. Hypocrisy much?
You dont even address the content of my post. Thats all I ask. If you choose to ignore the content of the post and choose instead to let your bias against me personally reflect on your response (as well as reading comprehension), then theres nothing I can do but point out the wording used. In this case I used non absolutes, leaving room for it to be different. "IF"s and "No one knows".
If you want me to elaborate I will, as I said, but lay off the personal attacks. I know you target me for some reason but lets tone it down a bit please.
Yes, you only posted Ad Hominem, insinuating I'm too slow to understand or questionning my understanding of English. And you always seem to be doing so when I try to understand your logic. Sometimes you end up writing your thoughts, but yes, you last post didn't have any answer to my original question.
So you are not ready to have anyone questionning your claims, and you feel we belittle you when we reject your numerous Ad Hominem?
Neither one of you are using ad hominem correctly. Ad hominem is not about personal attacks, it's a fallacious logical argument trying to link the validity of an argument to a personal characteristic. Furthermore using an ad hominem tu quoque only further invalidates a logical argument based on personal attacks.
The King concurs.
Neither of you shall be arguers in the King's Court.
But really so many words to say "RIFT is WoW-ish" seems like a waste of argument. Perhaps using video to back up either claim would prove more fruitful? Or at least entertaining.
Neither one of you are using ad hominem correctly. Ad hominem is not about personal attacks, it's a fallacious logical argument trying to link the validity of an argument to a personal characteristic. Furthermore using an ad hominem tu quoque only further invalidates a logical argument based on personal attacks.
I stand corrected. 'Argumentum ad hominem' is when you answer to an argument with presonal attacks. In his case, those personal attacks were to avoid my question. 'Ad hominem tu quoque' is when you try to invalidate someone's argument by pointing out inconsistencies in his own gesture/previous speeches.
Riiight. We are talking about a combat system which has been around for nearly 2 decades. If it's not obsolete then Windows 95 must be still hot today.
Same old holy trinity? that's your opinion. Rift does offer an in-depth class system so not every warrior is a tank, cleric healer and mage/rogue dps. You can run a dungeon with three rogues, a cleric and a mage and do well. You can do it with a warrior, 2 mages, 2 rogues and many more combinations than just that. Calling it the same old holy trinity is disingenuous.
We'll see at launch. I hope you are right about this and yes, Im gonna play Rift (while waiting for Tera and GW2 though).
The graphics are dated compared to the current engine? That's your opinion. Trion has developed their own engine based off of Gamebryo. The graphics look pretty damn good imho.
That's your opinion. A next-gen game must have much better graphic, even for a MMO imo but lower graphic quality means more players with mid-end and low-end computers can play. I can't argue against that.
This is untrue. Trion does not have their own engine based off Gamebryo. He is basing this off a very old quote in which a Trion developer said they were using a defered rendering approach. He has shown many times he doesnt know what this actually means and if you try to bring it up, well "defensive" comes to mind. Look below.
What rift does do is have its own tweaked shader, most games do. This is not a different graphics engine, rather a shading algorithm. Its a tweak, not an overhaul.
I'm a defensive fanboy now? That's your opinion because I think your post is aggressive and insulting to people who like the game. Considering you chose to post this insult in the Rift Forum, I see this as trolling. That's my opinion.
Was my post a troll post? That's obviously your opinion. Nowhere did I say Rift sucks donkey ball blah blah. I said this does not qualify as a next-gen game and clearly gave my 3 reasons in my first post, only Rift fans would qualify it a next-gen. You're the one who started it.
If you do not think Rift is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and have any non favorable thing to say about the game, it therefore results in insulting Rift. (facepalm)
The game is considered by some as next-gen because of the cloud computing and content being provided by the server and not the client. This was already mentioned in this thread by the OP and others. You either chose to ignore it or not respond. If you don't think that qualifies as next-gen, that's your opinion. It doesn't make anyone elses less valid.
Then their ideas do not make mine any less valid also. You can either choose to ignore it or not to respond. Content being generated from the server, that's a briliant idea but this alone doesn't make a game next-gen while every other features are the same old current-gen MMO features.
Many games have used this "cloud computing". While trion might think they have optimized the approach, its not new or next gen. It is also a lie to suggest they can add "new content" as in full on asset and world geometry changes without a patch. Scott talked about this. They can change what the system is setup to do, meaning the assets are already on the client side to begin with, but its not going to be brand new assets.
"They like it and paint any glory they want on it" isn't a troll post? It's a negative generalization aimed at a group of people whom do not share your view and think Rift is good. Anyways, I believe some would see that comment that way.
Then how about providing some strong counter-arguments other than 'that's your opinion'?
Agree. They generally dont have a strong counter argument though. Instead its just the usual personal insults and the like.
Too often the pot is calling the kettle black.
Hmm Luf i think some people begin to take it personally if Rift is not praised in every single thread on this forum.
You are right though, most of it is his opinion. There is a lot of subjective stuff being said, but very little in the way of objective.
In response to this line "Same old holy trinity? that's your opinion. Rift does offer an in-depth class system so not every warrior is a tank, cleric healer and mage/rogue dps."
This kind of misinformation needs to be addressesd. One of Trion's developers made this. I'll let it speak for itself.
The Trinity Does Exist! It is important to note that over 60% of the souls fall under the DPS category.
" Rift does offer an in-depth class system so not every warrior is a tank, cleric healer and mage/rogue dps. You can run a dungeon with three rogues, a cleric and a mage and do well. You can do it with a warrior, 2 mages, 2 rogues and many more combinations than just that"
This is almost worst. Two points. 1, this is based off the opinion of someone who has only experienced the few low level dungeons in the game. No one knows how it scales. 2, IF this is true, then it says something about the quality and design of the dungeons. It means they are mostly tank and spank ordeals. It can also mean that any class/role doesnt really do anything very well. So its a question of design consequences and whether or not its a good thing or a bad thing towards end game.
Raben - you know that each character can have four builds simultaneously that they can switch out of combat, so I'm not sure what you mean. How does any of this mean it will be a tank and spank ordeal?
Here's someone talking about the very issue. He talks about deviating from the traditional holy trinity. Is tanking, healing and DPS still in the game? Yes, I would never say it wasn't. My point was you can be a tank AND a healer AND DPS all with one character. This gives you more options, not less. This is why I think Rift does not have the same old holy trinity from most previous MMOs.
Some quotes for you. "Each of our bosses are hand crafted. Just because you can do it in one dungeon, doesn't mean you can do it in another." 12:00 in
"There's more flexibility to Deviate from the holy trinity, than I've ever seen in a MMO." 12:58 in
He then goes on to talk about how roles factor in strategy for doing dungeons.
OH and your gamebryo thing you keep harping about?
This is untrue. Trion does not have their own engine based off Gamebryo. He is basing this off a very old quote in which a Trion developer said they were using a defered rendering approach. He has shown many times he doesnt know what this actually means and if you try to bring it up, well "defensive" comes to mind. Look below.
What rift does do is have its own tweaked shader, most games do. This is not a different graphics engine, rather a shading algorithm. Its a tweak, not an overhaul.
"We built this engine from the ground up." It starts at 18:20 in same link.
The graphics are dated compared to the current engine? That's your opinion. Trion has developed their own engine based off of Gamebryo. The graphics look pretty damn good imho.
That's your opinion. A next-gen game must have much better graphic, even for a MMO imo but lower graphic quality means more players with mid-end and low-end computers can play. I can't argue against that.
This is untrue. Trion does not have their own engine based off Gamebryo. He is basing this off a very old quote in which a Trion developer said they were using a defered rendering approach. He has shown many times he doesnt know what this actually means and if you try to bring it up, well "defensive" comes to mind. Look below.
What rift does do is have its own tweaked shader, most games do. This is not a different graphics engine, rather a shading algorithm. Its a tweak, not an overhaul.
I work at Trion, so I'd like to clear this up. Our engine is based on Gamebryo but has been heavily modified in-house. We added a deferred renderer which was a pretty major change, certainly much more than a "tweaked shader".
Guys the truth is this kind of talk happens every time a new MMO is coming out. People see some video or play 1-3 times in the beta then that MMO is the best ever aka NEXT GEN. Rifts = warhammer. Oh please if you played in beta you read this so many times lol.
The fact is your not paying. After 30 days THEN and only then do we START to see those that like the game. So duh Rift is NEXT GEN duh its AWESOME.. your NOT PAYING FOR IT! When you have to fork over $50+15 a month....ooh then the tune changes lol
Do you know how many TALK about RIFT yet will NOT place a preorder.
If you can TRY before you buy.. then if you like it buy it.
Hubs being taken over by mobs is cool but not new.
I remember this happening from time to time in Ultime Online. Granted it wasnt day in day out every couple of hours but it did happen and it was sometimes without any warning.
I remember being at the South Trinsic bank once and was suddenly surrounded by undead . . . . oh dear!
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
This next generation talk is naugheous. Instead of looking for the fun factor, we're searching for the flashy gimmicks.
We are all in it for the fun factor, essentially. It's just that a lot of us are no longer finding any fun in games using the same ancient formula.
The problem is not one of mere gimmicks, it's about a very special genre that has deteriorated into a period of pure stagnation.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Comments
I cannot see how it would mean every dungeons are tank and spank.
What part were you not able to understand. I can elaborate on "No one knows how it scales" If you think its necessary, though I dont think it is as it should be fairly obvious to anyone who understands the English language.
Also notice the "IF". IF a dungeon can be done with any mashup of characters of any class, then it says something about how the dungeons are designed. I'll let that sink in. Let me know if you still dont get it.
You do realize there are numerous people who are testing the endgame content and know how it scales, right? There are two versions of Rift being tested right now, and one is 24/7 of testers who have been testing the endgame since Alpha.
Unsurprisingly, the value of your answer is near null. Along with a good share of Ad Hominem attacks. It tells a lot about the quality of your rethoric.
Holy Trinity?! What is that like the 3 souls you get?
One person could be their own holy trinity (cleric), you can be one roll in one fight, another in the next....Soul system is a silly complaint against Rift, as you can redefine your roll on the fly.
Only instanced dungeons...crafting system could use more depth, waiting to see what purpose their is to open world pvp....I can buy that.
As long as you take damage in a game, you need to be able to heal, the ability to take damage, and the ability to damage...Crazy isn't it? So what according to that chart, broken down into 4 parts,
Clerics 3/4
Mages 3/4
Warriors 2/4
Rogues 3/4
So Cleric can be holy trinity, and 2 people can be the immortal quad! So limiting.
I haven't seen any evidence to this gimping, sure you can gimp yourself, but I have seen people complain how good of tanks rogues and clerics can be...Does that hold up at 50? Don't know, but haven't seen that it doesn't....As for the repurcusions...who knows...People want new, and cry when they get it.....
optimal =/ doable
Some people can't stand sour in their sweet, just as some can't stand sweet in their sour.
I don't get how people can complain about the soul system either. Name a system that gives you more viable options?
Right now I see about 6 or so viable builds with Warden as a main soul. If we consider each soul to have only 3-4 viable builds, then we still have over 100 viable builds to work with here. That really is quite a bit more than any other game.
There are going non-viable builds (EX: mixing too much Paragon with Champion, mixing too much Cabalist with melee Cleric souls, etc.) and there is definitely an agruement here for some souls being similar enough to be combined into one soul (EX: Elementalist and Pyromancer, Assassin and Nightblade, Ranger and Marksman), but for the most part I think we all can at least acknowledge the soul system is an improvement over most MMOs currently.
If you agrue a classless system is a better way to go and has more viable builds, well that usually isn't the case. Most games that have classless systems like Darkfall or UO wind up having extremely limited endgame builds - as in one - Tank Mage.
It's true the soul system isn't exactly entirely innovative. It's very similar to WoW's talent trees and lots of other MMOs that use a similar system, but the soul system itself is a huge evolution in this system, as it gives far more options (viable ones) than previous MMOs that used similar systems.
I checked out some other videos of AA. I hadn't heard of it before, but it looks very promising.
True enough. In a high level dungeon in current MMOs, if you are not using the trinity you have only 2 options. 1, a big bad zerg with potions being spammed left and right. 2, constant agro trading between group members. Option 1 is better off with button smashing action MMOs, mostly F2P like Divine Soul. Option 2 is also not for Rift, considering it will force players to play at 120% of their capacity all the times. Rift is not and will never be that much hardcore if they are trying to overthrow the mainstream WoW as shown in their cheeky trailer.
I do not expect Trion to try something outside of the trinity. I just hope they will make the tank to reduce the boss damage, not completely absorb it. The tank then doesn't have to annoy the boss all the times so it will not hit the group. The rest can be taken care of with group coordinations ,moving and healing. That's 1 big step ahead to the true next-gen.
. . .yea. . .I love this EQ generation where the servers can be laden with new, fresh, never-seen content that is scripted by the devs, but dynamic and surprising to the player-base without a client patch.
. . .wait a minute. . .
To me Next Gen is something that kicks ass.
Rift kicks ass because
1. pushing content that we haven't seen before with Rifts that spawn invasions and take over your city and quest locations.
2. alot of game computation and physics handled server side to free up people's PC specs a bit.
3. new use of server load balancing to compensate for a large number of players in 1 location so that there is no lag on server side.
4. character flexability enuff to allow for easy grouping mechanics and breaking the old problem of needing a roll filled.
5. first game since WoW days that successfully took from all the previous titles and put them into a newer better package.
So there you have it. Several reasons why Rift kicks ass.
I am sure there will be some people that dissagree here but since Next Gen is subjective to opinion and not easily definable, I am perfectly happy with the above reasons.
Other game that kicks ass is Arche Age.
Examples of Arche Age kicking ass are
1. Many doors, bridges, boats, etc are able to be destroyed
2. the use of physics in the game are taken to the next level not seen yet in games.
3. incorporates realistic housing production.
there are still some unknown details about Arche Age but just those listed there are great to start.
So there are two solid next gen games. I also think that the success of a game is important as well so we can't give a full kick ass stamp until a game crosses at least the 6 month mark with healthy subscription base. I believe both Arche Age and Rift will not have a problem holding subs for a long time.
You do realize that those participating in alpha, which from what i hear was never open to public application but through Trion's own contacts, is still under NDA.
If one is not supposed to discuss alpha, then why, logically, should that be taken into consideration. What if I was in Alpha, then would you invalidate the points I have made previously? See it goes both ways. The point is that regardless of if someone is in alpha or not, the NDA is there and you cannot assume to take that into consideration for every single post in this thread.
Unsurprisingly, you use "ad hominem" every other response post. Do you think using it honestly invalidates a post or makes you automatically belittle the person you respond to? You are not even using it in a relevant manner. What next, claims of my posts being hegemonic? Good grief. Your bias would result in ad hominem as well, if that were true. Hypocrisy much?
You dont even address the content of my post. Thats all I ask. If you choose to ignore the content of the post and choose instead to let your bias against me personally reflect on your response (as well as reading comprehension), then theres nothing I can do but point out the wording used. In this case I used non absolutes, leaving room for it to be different. "IF"s and "No one knows".
If you want me to elaborate I will, as I said, but lay off the personal attacks. I know you target me for some reason but lets tone it down a bit please.
LDoN?
It was just in response to "nobody knows how it scales". There are people who do know. It's also pretty obvious that no matter how many NDA and preventitive measures you have in place information will get leaked. There may be people who are in Alpha here that do know even if they haven't posted directly that they are in Alpha or discussed things that are specifically in the Alpha build.
Still, we can also take into consideration what we do know if we played the beta which isn't under NDA. Sure it's only 27 levels and not endgame content, but we still have experience in the game at early levels to be able to make a decent judgement about how viable different builds are. At 27 there are some viable builds, some overpowered builds, and some underpowered builds, and currently it seems like there are a huge amount of options (we can also look further into the trees and theorycraft too) for viable specs (over 100 already in my opinion). Doesn't mean we won't be wrong, it won't change in the coming patches, etc., but we sure can speculate right now.
Sure, the technology that they use, maybe next-gen! Indeed, sounds very good. However hat does not mean that game itself has anything new. Yea, cool "souls" idea, but that is not enough for me to buy the game. From what I have seen from beta- it's the same sweet, different wrapper.
~Awesome Tr!x
Yes, you only posted Ad Hominem, insinuating I'm too slow to understand or questionning my understanding of English. And you always seem to be doing so when I try to understand your logic. Sometimes you end up writing your thoughts, but yes, you last post didn't have any answer to my original question.
So you are not ready to have anyone questionning your claims, and you feel we belittle you when we reject your numerous Ad Hominem?
Neither one of you are using ad hominem correctly. Ad hominem is not about personal attacks, it's a fallacious logical argument trying to link the validity of an argument to a personal characteristic. Furthermore using an ad hominem tu quoque only further invalidates a logical argument based on personal attacks.
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
The King concurs.
Neither of you shall be arguers in the King's Court.
But really so many words to say "RIFT is WoW-ish" seems like a waste of argument. Perhaps using video to back up either claim would prove more fruitful? Or at least entertaining.
I stand corrected. 'Argumentum ad hominem' is when you answer to an argument with presonal attacks. In his case, those personal attacks were to avoid my question. 'Ad hominem tu quoque' is when you try to invalidate someone's argument by pointing out inconsistencies in his own gesture/previous speeches.
Smoking is bad.
How can you say that? You are a smoker yourself!
Raben - you know that each character can have four builds simultaneously that they can switch out of combat, so I'm not sure what you mean. How does any of this mean it will be a tank and spank ordeal?
Here's someone talking about the very issue. He talks about deviating from the traditional holy trinity. Is tanking, healing and DPS still in the game? Yes, I would never say it wasn't. My point was you can be a tank AND a healer AND DPS all with one character. This gives you more options, not less. This is why I think Rift does not have the same old holy trinity from most previous MMOs.
Some quotes for you. "Each of our bosses are hand crafted. Just because you can do it in one dungeon, doesn't mean you can do it in another." 12:00 in
"There's more flexibility to Deviate from the holy trinity, than I've ever seen in a MMO." 12:58 in
He then goes on to talk about how roles factor in strategy for doing dungeons.
Here's the link -
http://www.riftpodcast.com/podcast/2010/11/22/podcast-21-hal-hanlin-on-souls-endgame-and-rift-rewards.html
OH and your gamebryo thing you keep harping about?
This is untrue. Trion does not have their own engine based off Gamebryo. He is basing this off a very old quote in which a Trion developer said they were using a defered rendering approach. He has shown many times he doesnt know what this actually means and if you try to bring it up, well "defensive" comes to mind. Look below.
What rift does do is have its own tweaked shader, most games do. This is not a different graphics engine, rather a shading algorithm. Its a tweak, not an overhaul.
"We built this engine from the ground up." It starts at 18:20 in same link.
This was posted on Nov. 22, 2010.
I work at Trion, so I'd like to clear this up. Our engine is based on Gamebryo but has been heavily modified in-house. We added a deferred renderer which was a pretty major change, certainly much more than a "tweaked shader".
"what hubs get taken over my mobs" Ever play WOW?
Guys the truth is this kind of talk happens every time a new MMO is coming out. People see some video or play 1-3 times in the beta then that MMO is the best ever aka NEXT GEN. Rifts = warhammer. Oh please if you played in beta you read this so many times lol.
The fact is your not paying. After 30 days THEN and only then do we START to see those that like the game. So duh Rift is NEXT GEN duh its AWESOME.. your NOT PAYING FOR IT! When you have to fork over $50+15 a month....ooh then the tune changes lol
Do you know how many TALK about RIFT yet will NOT place a preorder.
If you can TRY before you buy.. then if you like it buy it.
This next generation talk is naugheous. Instead of looking for the fun factor, we're searching for the flashy gimmicks.
Hubs being taken over by mobs is cool but not new.
I remember this happening from time to time in Ultime Online. Granted it wasnt day in day out every couple of hours but it did happen and it was sometimes without any warning.
I remember being at the South Trinsic bank once and was suddenly surrounded by undead . . . . oh dear!
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
We are all in it for the fun factor, essentially. It's just that a lot of us are no longer finding any fun in games using the same ancient formula.
The problem is not one of mere gimmicks, it's about a very special genre that has deteriorated into a period of pure stagnation.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb