I could have this wrong but thats what i see basically when a Dynamic event is shown to me.
You actually are wrong. PQ's are one and done events. Like you said you have to win 2-3 waves and a boss at the end. With DE's it has the event and from that a win would bring one outcome and a loss would bring another. For example the village is attacked by centaurs and you get wiped out by them. In a PQ you would simply restart it with the centaurs riding in waves into the village, but in a DE you would rally with other players and NPC's to retake the village and res the NPC's inside the town. Now retaking the town would not automatically set off the previous event, you may want to run a collect DE to help rebuild the village or go with another group to try an kill the centaur chief to really send them back. Yes eventually the defend the village from the centaurs DE will cycle back again, but it will be after players effect where the chain is.
And each time you go through these cycles it could be different, like if the centaurs have invaded more towns on the route to the village the attacking force could be stronger or someone could of escorted a caravan into town that would build stronger defences for the village.
I believe that DE's were intended to make people work together without the need to group so people could have more fun. I thing the social aspect comes more from the need (especially in harder DE's and Dungeons ) to coordinate skill interactions and positioning . You will see people who are good at doing those things and will want to group together for the next event because you want to and not because you have to. And this will still by no means exclude the player that is not quite as good following along to the next DE in the chain.
First, the game is designed to be purely cooperative. In other games, on some level it's still a competition. You're competing for kills, or loot, or to tag mobs for experience, or for resource nodes, whatever. When someone says they would prefer to solo in a traditional MMO, maybe they're just incredibly anti-social. Or maybe they just know that grouping is only going to slow them down and/or potentially add drama to their lives (rolling over loot or whatever). GW2 is designed from the ground up to be purely cooperative. You don't get penalized in any way by the presence of another player. Another player is always a good thing.
In fact, you want other players around because the events scale up. More mobs means more chaos, boss mobs gain abilities when facing more players. The more players, the more epic the fights.
There are also visual, intuitive cross profession combos. You can work together without talking even if you're not grouped. So instead of just soloing next to someone where you can take it or leave it if you talk to them, now they're being cool and dropping that fire wall for you to shoot through. Likewise, once they ratchet up the difficulty (the demo was toned down apparently), people are probably going to be dropping dead a lot. People are going to instinctively rez other people (and probably try to save them too) since you want to win the event. Once you've said thank you, you've started talking.
Events chain into other events. This is huge. In a traditional quest model, you NEVER group, because you can solo everything and grouping will just slow you down. The only incentive to group is when you reach the quest with the elite mob you can't solo. In a public quest, they're one and done, you show up and leave to do something else. In GW2, if the event chains from A to B to C, there is no incentive to not continue it. Sure, you could run off and find another one, but why would you? You've got one right here. So people are going to stick together and have a little downtime while the event is chaining in order to talk.
That downtime I think will also be important. How often do you do a dungeon run in WoW and never talk to one another because you're sprinting from mob to mob to get it done ASAP?
All in all I think it's a great system and a vast improvement over what is out there. It doesn't force anything, but instead it puts people together for an extended period of time, gives them a visual way to work together, gives them a some time to talk, and eliminates the need to worry about whether someone is going to stab you in the back.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I could have this wrong but thats what i see basically when a Dynamic event is shown to me.
You actually are wrong. PQ's are one and done events. Like you said you have to win 2-3 waves and a boss at the end. With DE's it has the event and from that a win would bring one outcome and a loss would bring another. For example the village is attacked by centaurs and you get wiped out by them. In a PQ you would simply restart it with the centaurs riding in waves into the village, but in a DE you would rally with other players and NPC's to retake the village and res the NPC's inside the town. Now retaking the town would not automatically set off the previous event, you may want to run a collect DE to help rebuild the village or go with another group to try an kill the centaur chief to really send them back. Yes eventually the defend the village from the centaurs DE will cycle back again, but it will be after players effect where the chain is.
And each time you go through these cycles it could be different, like if the centaurs have invaded more towns on the route to the village the attacking force could be stronger or someone could of escorted a caravan into town that would build stronger defences for the village.
The public quests in other games are very simple i will grant you but GW2 took the basic concept and spruced it up by making it so your actions change the outcome and can affect other areas. They didn't change the fact that you jump in when a quest is already on going, you complete objectives and based on how you did a reward is given.
This i feel is the core of public quests, which is exactly what i'm seeing in the DE, it's a spruced up version (thats a compliment) of a public quest. I don't see anything in that post that changes it from a public quest. Just adds a few more layers onto it. Sorry
I believe that DE's were intended to make people work together without the need to group so people could have more fun. I thing the social aspect comes more from the need (especially in harder DE's and Dungeons ) to coordinate skill interactions and positioning . You will see people who are good at doing those things and will want to group together for the next event because you want to and not because you have to. And this will still by no means exclude the player that is not quite as good following along to the next DE in the chain.
I do hope they encourage people to socialize, cause we need that in MMOs.
I will state I plan to buy this game at some point. But I still firmly believe the DE are complex public quests. As such I don't feel they in themselves will encourage socializing any more then PQ of the same nature do in other games.
Just my view point of course.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I could have this wrong but thats what i see basically when a Dynamic event is shown to me.
You actually are wrong. PQ's are one and done events. Like you said you have to win 2-3 waves and a boss at the end. With DE's it has the event and from that a win would bring one outcome and a loss would bring another. For example the village is attacked by centaurs and you get wiped out by them. In a PQ you would simply restart it with the centaurs riding in waves into the village, but in a DE you would rally with other players and NPC's to retake the village and res the NPC's inside the town. Now retaking the town would not automatically set off the previous event, you may want to run a collect DE to help rebuild the village or go with another group to try an kill the centaur chief to really send them back. Yes eventually the defend the village from the centaurs DE will cycle back again, but it will be after players effect where the chain is.
And each time you go through these cycles it could be different, like if the centaurs have invaded more towns on the route to the village the attacking force could be stronger or someone could of escorted a caravan into town that would build stronger defences for the village.
The public quests in other games are very simple i will grant you but GW2 took the basic concept and spruced it up by making it so your actions change the outcome and can affect other areas. They didn't change the fact that you jump in when a quest is already on going, you complete objectives and based on how you did a reward is given.
This i feel is the core of public quests, which is exactly what i'm seeing in the DE, it's a spruced up version (thats a compliment) of a public quest. I don't see anything in that post that changes it from a public quest. Just adds a few more layers onto it. Sorry
I believe that DE's were intended to make people work together without the need to group so people could have more fun. I thing the social aspect comes more from the need (especially in harder DE's and Dungeons ) to coordinate skill interactions and positioning . You will see people who are good at doing those things and will want to group together for the next event because you want to and not because you have to. And this will still by no means exclude the player that is not quite as good following along to the next DE in the chain.
I do hope they encourage people to socialize, cause we need that in MMOs.
I will state I plan to buy this game at some point. But I still firmly believe the DE are complex public quests. As such I don't feel they in themselves will encourage socializing any more then PQ of the same nature do in other games.
Just my view point of course.
Having seen DE in Rift first hand, I can state that you are completely wrong. Grouping is encouraged and happens naturally.
When you enter the area you may get in at the beginning or you may get in part way through
The public quest progresses as the objectives are completed
If the player (s) fail, the public quests end
Once all the stages of the event are completed the game rewards you with some loot based on your involvement in the public quest.
After a while the event restarts.
I have that basic concept right so far?
Okay now in GW2
You run into an area with a DE going (check)
When you enter the DE, you may or may not get in at the beginning (check)
As you complete objectives DE continues (check)
If the player fails it can continue down a different path (this is where it changes a bit)
Once all the stages are completed you get a reward based on your involvement with the DE (check)
Something happens to cause the DE to restart (like another DE causing the centaurs to attack the town again.) (more complex but check)
Looks pretty similar to me. mayhaps instead of just saying i'm wrong you might want to point out what i missed?
The reason i'm even trying to make this comparision and why it's on topic is to show that while DE may be complex PQ, we can see from past that PQ don't really encourage long term involvement with people, any more then regular quests do.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
When you enter the area you may get in at the beginning or you may get in part way through
The public quest progresses as the objectives are completed
If the player (s) fail, the public quests end
Once all the stages of the event are completed the game rewards you with some loot based on your involvement in the public quest.
After a while the event restarts.
I have that basic concept right so far?
Okay now in GW2
You run into an area with a DE going (check)
When you enter the DE, you may or may not get in at the beginning (check)
As you complete objectives DE continues (check)
If the player fails it can continue down a different path (this is where it changes a bit)
Once all the stages are completed you get a reward based on your involvement with the DE (check)
Something happens to cause the DE to restart (like another DE causing the centaurs to attack the town again.) (more complex but check)
Looks pretty similar to me. mayhaps instead of just saying i'm wrong you might want to point out what i missed?
The reason i'm even trying to make this comparision and why it's on topic is to show that while DE may be complex PQ, we can see from past that PQ don't really encourage long term involvement with people, any more then regular quests do.
The difference between PQ's and DE's is that the PQ's from WAR weren't designed to keep people from staying grouped or to keep people working together, they were just there. Anet has put a major amount of thought and work into how the DE's will work and keep people together, that along with the cross-class combos will help keep people together and working cooperatively.
When you enter the area you may get in at the beginning or you may get in part way through
The public quest progresses as the objectives are completed
If the player (s) fail, the public quests end
Once all the stages of the event are completed the game rewards you with some loot based on your involvement in the public quest.
After a while the event restarts.
I have that basic concept right so far?
Okay now in GW2
You run into an area with a DE going (check)
When you enter the DE, you may or may not get in at the beginning (check)
As you complete objectives DE continues (check)
If the player fails it can continue down a different path (this is where it changes a bit)
Once all the stages are completed you get a reward based on your involvement with the DE (check)
Something happens to cause the DE to restart (like another DE causing the centaurs to attack the town again.) (more complex but check)
Looks pretty similar to me. mayhaps instead of just saying i'm wrong you might want to point out what i missed?
The reason i'm even trying to make this comparision and why it's on topic is to show that while DE may be complex PQ, we can see from past that PQ don't really encourage long term involvement with people, any more then regular quests do.
I think you are perhaps misunderstanding the chaining of events.
In a PQ or a Rift, you've got stages. At the completion of all the stages, either the PQ ends or the Rift closes. In the PQ case, it doesn't start again for a fixed amount of time. In the Rift case, if you are grouped you might go find another Rift, but it doesn't lead you to it. You might have only done this Rift because you stumbled across it or because it's right outside of town. The rest of the game is traditional quests.
GW2 has no traditional quests. There are 1500-1600 events which replace them completely. Another difference is that they chain from one event to the next. While this could be analogous to the stages of the Rift or PQ, it's also different. For one, it can move around the map. Second, it can have a different objective. To give an example, one event involves helping ogres defeat the harpies in control of the oasis so they can get water. If you succeed in helping them, then the 2nd event in the chain is being attacked by the wildlife who now want water because the harpies are no longer there. So you defend the ogres while they fill their buckets. The third step is to escort the ogres back to their village. This whole time people are battling cooperatively, traveling together, and supporting each other with cross profession combos and ressurections. The hope is that at the end of the event, people continue to travel down the road together, get told of a different event, and stick together throughout their play session.
There's a huge difference between dynamic events and traditional quests. Traditional quests you really have no incentive to group, and if you want to do them with a friend, you need to be on the same stage of the quest. You might not want to play by yourself, because you'll just have to help your friend do the same quest when they get on.
Dynamic events happen whether players are there or not. You can jump in anytime. The game automentors people down in strength so they can't overpower an event and ruin it for others. You and your friend can always play with each other, just by traveling together and finding events. They can even sidekick up to your level to do higher level stuff.
Like I said before, it's purely cooperative as well. There's no tagging of mobs. There's no ninja looting. There's no starting an escort quest just as you run up or stealing a node while you're fighting a guy. It will be designed so there is no griefing at all humanly possible in the game.
Couple that with the cross profession combos, being rewarded for rezzing others, and the scaling of events, and you really have a system that is doing everything possible to encourage communication and cooperation. If people refuse to take advantage of it, then its the player's fault, not ArenaNet's.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
It is impossible to promote Social gaming in a society that is now predominatly anti-social. MMO community are now about the 'self' ratehr than the group... the good of the one outweighs the good of the many...
First of all, why is everyone reducing GW2 to DEs? That isn't the only way to socialize, yes it does help but let's look at the game as a whole.
Yes DEs are sort of like complex PQs but the few differences between them set them worlds apart in all actuality. Dynamic Events actually have a purpose. They further your personal story, they branch off into different directions, changing your "story" or your experience as a whole, making it completely unique to another person in another part of the world. They actually change the world around you. Choosing to follow a certain dynamic event or deciding to "let the town burn" will change how you progress through the game. PQs were there as a way to just get some quick exp with a few other people. So with DEs, socialization will feel more important as you experience the story and the game together.
I feel like PQs were just another way to grind, when you have an actual impact, you and your "group" (you don't actually have to invite each other at all) will feel more like an single entity forcing the world to bend to your will. Not only that but you don't have to wait for someone to be on the same part of a chain as you. Anyone can come in and contribute at any time and join in. Sounds great to me!
Outside of DEs, you will also find that the cities have been catered to socialization in that they are very alive environments, they have mini games, areas that people will flock to in order to get in groups, or challenge each other to the shooting range, strip down and dance emote etc... whatever you want to do. Not only that but you are constantly going back to your home city to go to your "home" world, since your personal story/the way you go about DEs will make an impact on that part of the city.
Also, let's face it, Guild Wars had pretty decent PvE thanks to the story/cinmetics, world, voice overs etc... but the game was primarily focused around PvP. PvP always requires socialization. Collective knowledge was huge in the original GWs because in order to combat certain builds or formulate a completely new and unique strategy, a pool of knowledge was much better than the mind of one. I don't expect that ideal to change.
GW2 has no traditional quests. There are 1500-1600 events which replace them completely.
That isn't really true. GW2 have quests as well, but they are mainly for soloplayers even if they scale, it is mostly instanced stuff they call "Personal storyline".
So GW2 have both but you wont really see the soloplayers much.
Add in the dungeons and the PvE part should be varied enough.
GW2 has no traditional quests. There are 1500-1600 events which replace them completely.
That isn't really true. GW2 have quests as well, but they are mainly for soloplayers even if they scale, it is mostly instanced stuff they call "Personal storyline".
So GW2 have both but you wont really see the soloplayers much.
Add in the dungeons and the PvE part should be varied enough.
It is impossible to promote Social gaming in a society that is now predominatly anti-social. MMO community are now about the 'self' ratehr than the group... the good of the one outweighs the good of the many...
Yeah. Jeff Strains ideas were that he wanted to change that and encourage social behavior instead of rewarding people for being bastards.
The carrot is mightier than the stick and I actually think this will at least partly work.
Of course I actually believe that it is mainly the games that makes people so selfish and not the other way around, I have been known to be wrong before.
GW2 has no traditional quests. There are 1500-1600 events which replace them completely.
That isn't really true. GW2 have quests as well, but they are mainly for soloplayers even if they scale, it is mostly instanced stuff they call "Personal storyline".
So GW2 have both but you wont really see the soloplayers much.
Add in the dungeons and the PvE part should be varied enough.
He said no TRADITIONAL quests.
The instanced personal story quests are pretty traditional even if the instances scale.
1. Dynamic Events replace quests. In War you had PQs in addition to quests. So how will this affect the social side? Well guess everyone will be interested in doing this dynamic content. This could lead to a sorta bread-crumb routine of being sucked along for the ride and that might get groups forming and then going off on tangents in an organic manner. As another poster said: Force kids to play: "PLAY damn you!" lol so it seems it's not forced fun which is a good thing imo?
2. Next there's no competition: Ie no kill stealing, no whinging about giving the purple loot bag to me this time etc or having to redo it for a sh*ty roll.
3. The content is intended to scale so that a lot of players can join in and the experience is immersive/interactive for them all as it would be with more or less numbers albeit you may see a few different things. Don't think this applies to every DE, and if DEs are very varied in their triggers it might be a good thing that players rock up and it's "not there" and get off their fat asses and go and find something creative to do!
I think the best thing appears to be that there will be some content that caters to huge numbers but there will be the flexibility to do content solo, co-op, small group of mates, pug, large zerg etc... then I think it sorta allows players to find what they want when they want.
4. Also everyone on one server is on the same side is a good idea for WvW.
5. Finally one thing that I anticipate a lot of good to come from could be that b2p could decrease players feeling precious because their monthly sub is being devalued by some other players?
Well in DCUO, I have hit the lvl cap. In order to do the hard dungeons a proper group is required. What I don't want to do is sit in metroplis and /shout for half an hour "Looking for a healer". I don't find this social.
And Yes, I do want to be invited. But I also want to get to the good part quickly too.
In Rift, I found rifts to be similar to DCUO's missions. In some missions like I said, I would see few other people doing it and so I decided to invite them and it worked out well, but this was before hitting lvl cap. But the majority of the missions I was just soloing, couldn't really find others. I find rifts to be similar in regards that I might find few people at the same rift as me, maybe we'll tackle the current map's quest together, but I feel most of this will just end up me soloing.
I played FFXI for few years, so I keep on wanting to get the similar feeling: you have to form a proper group in order to do just about anything. In Rift this is not the case, and I'm not too unhappy about it.
But come the endgame in Rift, it'll probably be -> /shout "looking for a healer". THIS part I don't like.
And as for GW2, who knows how this'll play.
First of all Rift is in beta so stop making assumptions especially about lvl cap'd play.
Second, you don't want to sit around yelling "looking for a healer" but you also want a game with a similar feeling to FFXI? These are contradictory statements. Anyone who has played FFXI knows you sit around yelling for a healer.
Third, GW2 is attempting to promote the social aspect by allowing players to come and go as they please. One big thing everyone seems to be forgetting is right in the name of the game GUILD!!! You want a group of trusted friends who are willing to help out consistently and that also allow you to form a "proper group"?? Join a guild
Nomss - Stop complaining because DCUO isn't what you thought it would be. Don't tear apart Rift when it's still in Beta. And for crying out loud if you can't see the social aspect of a game that has the word "Guild" in its title you need to get your eyes checked.
Couldn't this also happen? You walk into a DE, it's already in progress with say 4 other people. Once in that DE you get prompted of what you need to do. You help them kill the monster/complete the objective, moving on wave after wave and then once it's over, collect your prize and break apart.
I'm worried this is exactly what will happen in most encounters. Theres no tie and no real reason to need to group. You can follow them just as they can follow you without the need to talk to each other or barely interact beyond just doing the event.
Just my personal view of course. Some people will talk, some will not. I just don't see DE really pushing this aspect.
This sounds like half the DDO groups I'm in and 90% of the WoW groups for the past two years. The main difference is I'm not forced to group in order to see the majority of the content. If an event is taking place while I'm wandering by, I can just jump in. No muss, no fuss and no LFG spam and waiting an hour for a healer to grace us with their presence. On the other hand, the option is there if I want to team up with a few friends. But it remains just an option.
I frankly don't see why this is such a concern. Most groups in other games are formed out of necessity, not because people enjoy one another's company. In GW2, most groups will be formed because individuals actually want a social game experience. We needn't yield to the mechanics of the game, it yields to us. I simply don't see a downside.
Besides, there will still be some tougher content that requires teamwork, it will just be the exception, not the rule. Thumbs up from me.
Well in DCUO, I have hit the lvl cap. In order to do the hard dungeons a proper group is required. What I don't want to do is sit in metroplis and /shout for half an hour "Looking for a healer". I don't find this social.
And Yes, I do want to be invited. But I also want to get to the good part quickly too.
In Rift, I found rifts to be similar to DCUO's missions. In some missions like I said, I would see few other people doing it and so I decided to invite them and it worked out well, but this was before hitting lvl cap. But the majority of the missions I was just soloing, couldn't really find others. I find rifts to be similar in regards that I might find few people at the same rift as me, maybe we'll tackle the current map's quest together, but I feel most of this will just end up me soloing.
I played FFXI for few years, so I keep on wanting to get the similar feeling: you have to form a proper group in order to do just about anything. In Rift this is not the case, and I'm not too unhappy about it.
But come the endgame in Rift, it'll probably be -> /shout "looking for a healer". THIS part I don't like.
And as for GW2, who knows how this'll play.
First of all Rift is in beta so stop making assumptions especially about lvl cap'd play.
Second, you don't want to sit around yelling "looking for a healer" but you also want a game with a similar feeling to FFXI? These are contradictory statements. Anyone who has played FFXI knows you sit around yelling for a healer.
Third, GW2 is attempting to promote the social aspect by allowing players to come and go as they please. One big thing everyone seems to be forgetting is right in the name of the game GUILD!!! You want a group of trusted friends who are willing to help out consistently and that also allow you to form a "proper group"?? Join a guild
Nomss - Stop complaining because DCUO isn't what you thought it would be. Don't tear apart Rift when it's still in Beta. And for crying out loud if you can't see the social aspect of a game that has the word "Guild" in its title you need to get your eyes checked.
"Guild" was also in the title of "Guild wars"....the one where you didnt have to group or join guilds, just hire henchmen to run around with.
"Guild" was also in the title of "Guild wars"....the one where you didnt have to group or join guilds, just hire henchmen to run around with.
only the majority of the content was undoable with henchmen; they where mainly place holders for when the're weren't enough players around to group with
I dont think GW2's DE's will promote grouping or social interactions..
I think it'll be alot like Rift/War's Rifts/Public Quests.You show up, you complete the objectives together (but not grouped) and then proceed to the next DE to rinse repeat.
I dont think people will be inclined to group or socialize with this method at all.
GW2 has no traditional quests. There are 1500-1600 events which replace them completely.
That isn't really true. GW2 have quests as well, but they are mainly for soloplayers even if they scale, it is mostly instanced stuff they call "Personal storyline".
So GW2 have both but you wont really see the soloplayers much.
Add in the dungeons and the PvE part should be varied enough.
He said no TRADITIONAL quests.
The instanced personal story quests are pretty traditional even if the instances scale.
I think it would be better stated that the personal storyline is just that, a storyline. You choose the direction it goes with your own decisions, save a hospital or save an orphanage was one popular example. Saying its a traditional quest makes it sound like its a linear unbranching kill x at point y. Your actions in your storyline have permanent consaquences, if you choose to let someone die, they stay dead. That doesnt happen in a traditional mmo quest.
Also if your talking about "traditional quests" in the open world, then you probably mean the "activities" that surtain npcs will ask you to do. These are mainly things to do while you wait for an event to happen in the vacinity, which generaly takes no more than a minuet or two. (an example of this would be to help watering a farmers crops, and then seeing an event in which bandits are lighting that farmers hay on fire and you run over to participate)
I dont think GW2's DE's will promote grouping or social interactions..
I think it'll be alot like Rift/War's Rifts/Public Quests.You show up, you complete the objectives together (but not grouped) and then proceed to the next DE to rinse repeat.
I dont think people will be inclined to group or socialize with this method at all.
I think this will be a common occurrence, but I'm also wondering if ppl will want to replay the content again with a smaller group as a different experience further down the line? That's could be another way to look at it also?
Why should you shout LFG , or looking for a healer, or LF tank, like so many people have said, find friends, joina guild, why the hell does everyone want to PUG ??
MMO's are way more fun when played with real life friends, if they dont play, be a good player, a nice guy and you will make great friends in game , join their guild, and there you go, no need to be in chat spamming LFG
When you enter the area you may get in at the beginning or you may get in part way through
The public quest progresses as the objectives are completed
If the player (s) fail, the public quests end
Once all the stages of the event are completed the game rewards you with some loot based on your involvement in the public quest.
After a while the event restarts.
I have that basic concept right so far?
Okay now in GW2
You run into an area with a DE going (check)
When you enter the DE, you may or may not get in at the beginning (check)
As you complete objectives DE continues (check)
If the player fails it can continue down a different path (this is where it changes a bit)
Once all the stages are completed you get a reward based on your involvement with the DE (check)
Something happens to cause the DE to restart (like another DE causing the centaurs to attack the town again.) (more complex but check)
Looks pretty similar to me. mayhaps instead of just saying i'm wrong you might want to point out what i missed?
The reason i'm even trying to make this comparision and why it's on topic is to show that while DE may be complex PQ, we can see from past that PQ don't really encourage long term involvement with people, any more then regular quests do.
The part in Red is wrong at least from the interviews I have read, with Dynamic events you do not complete a set list of stages and get a reward (they do not want people to try and force certain outcomes to happen). From my understanding you get a reward of Karma and gold for each chain in a dynamic event. So it would be more like if a PQ from war gave you a reward after each section instead of waiting for you to beat the PQ. An example for a DE would be you join the arena in the Charr territory and you become part of a group for the first wave, then you have to log. You would get Karma and gold for that first wave, while the rest of the group could do the rest of the DE and get Karma and gold for each branch of the DE.
This to me is a big difference between PQ and what Anet is trying to do with dynamic events, there is no ending if you do not want there to be one. You can just keep following the chain of events and get rewarded for ever chain you and your group participate in. You will not have to go and try to find another active PQ across the zone and hope you get it early enough to get a change at the reward. You just join do that part of the chain get the reward then move onto the next part of the chain.
I think the problem would be solved if the DEs would become much harder for larger groups of people (so not the scaling version like in oblivion where everything felt so easy..)
tzhis would promote people to talk to each other, telling themselves what to focus on and what to do in certain time
and after the fight people would be like : woot that was one hell of a fight bla bla.. since they'd feel like they actually acomplished something..
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
I think the real social glue in GW2 is going to be the lack of traditional quests combined with the player scaling/side-kicking system.
Without that annoying quest log to grind out, you will be able to play any level content with friends of any character level. So many times in other MMOs you want to play with someone ( a R/L friend, or an old guild buddy) but because you already completed certain quests with your character you can't help, or worse, you are too powerful and you end up making the content boring for your friend. That's where the real changes in the social aspect is going to be--your existing network, not creating new.
Creating new social ties in in GW2 will happen just like it has always happened in MMOs--you do some common activity, you like their style, you ask to put them on your F-list, you split after your common goals are done, then you PM the guy next week when you are bored/finished you own personal story.
As for maintaining you social ties, there's not going to be much in the way to impede that (maybe you need to explore to get to the outpost your friend is at (or maybe you could meet halfway), but thats part of the world experience). You can go help your buddies in low level areas, bring them to high level areas, help them with their personal story, even take the new guys into high level competitive pvp just to see them get pwned... er, I mean teach them the ropes
Its going to be easier than ever to play with who you want to play with, when you want to play--no waiting for them to level up, finish a quest, or wait on a healer for the party. And because of that, the game is going to seem more social--more groups in low level areas, etc.--not necessarily because it is more social, but because there isn't a restriction on who and when you can socialize with. In other words, you can party with the people that other games wouldn't let you party with because of restrictions.
Comments
You actually are wrong. PQ's are one and done events. Like you said you have to win 2-3 waves and a boss at the end. With DE's it has the event and from that a win would bring one outcome and a loss would bring another. For example the village is attacked by centaurs and you get wiped out by them. In a PQ you would simply restart it with the centaurs riding in waves into the village, but in a DE you would rally with other players and NPC's to retake the village and res the NPC's inside the town. Now retaking the town would not automatically set off the previous event, you may want to run a collect DE to help rebuild the village or go with another group to try an kill the centaur chief to really send them back. Yes eventually the defend the village from the centaurs DE will cycle back again, but it will be after players effect where the chain is.
And each time you go through these cycles it could be different, like if the centaurs have invaded more towns on the route to the village the attacking force could be stronger or someone could of escorted a caravan into town that would build stronger defences for the village.
I believe that DE's were intended to make people work together without the need to group so people could have more fun. I thing the social aspect comes more from the need (especially in harder DE's and Dungeons ) to coordinate skill interactions and positioning . You will see people who are good at doing those things and will want to group together for the next event because you want to and not because you have to. And this will still by no means exclude the player that is not quite as good following along to the next DE in the chain.
There's a couple things I can think of.
First, the game is designed to be purely cooperative. In other games, on some level it's still a competition. You're competing for kills, or loot, or to tag mobs for experience, or for resource nodes, whatever. When someone says they would prefer to solo in a traditional MMO, maybe they're just incredibly anti-social. Or maybe they just know that grouping is only going to slow them down and/or potentially add drama to their lives (rolling over loot or whatever). GW2 is designed from the ground up to be purely cooperative. You don't get penalized in any way by the presence of another player. Another player is always a good thing.
In fact, you want other players around because the events scale up. More mobs means more chaos, boss mobs gain abilities when facing more players. The more players, the more epic the fights.
There are also visual, intuitive cross profession combos. You can work together without talking even if you're not grouped. So instead of just soloing next to someone where you can take it or leave it if you talk to them, now they're being cool and dropping that fire wall for you to shoot through. Likewise, once they ratchet up the difficulty (the demo was toned down apparently), people are probably going to be dropping dead a lot. People are going to instinctively rez other people (and probably try to save them too) since you want to win the event. Once you've said thank you, you've started talking.
Events chain into other events. This is huge. In a traditional quest model, you NEVER group, because you can solo everything and grouping will just slow you down. The only incentive to group is when you reach the quest with the elite mob you can't solo. In a public quest, they're one and done, you show up and leave to do something else. In GW2, if the event chains from A to B to C, there is no incentive to not continue it. Sure, you could run off and find another one, but why would you? You've got one right here. So people are going to stick together and have a little downtime while the event is chaining in order to talk.
That downtime I think will also be important. How often do you do a dungeon run in WoW and never talk to one another because you're sprinting from mob to mob to get it done ASAP?
All in all I think it's a great system and a vast improvement over what is out there. It doesn't force anything, but instead it puts people together for an extended period of time, gives them a visual way to work together, gives them a some time to talk, and eliminates the need to worry about whether someone is going to stab you in the back.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I will state I plan to buy this game at some point. But I still firmly believe the DE are complex public quests. As such I don't feel they in themselves will encourage socializing any more then PQ of the same nature do in other games.
Just my view point of course.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Having seen DE in Rift first hand, I can state that you are completely wrong. Grouping is encouraged and happens naturally.
I don't understand how i'm wrong.
In public quests you go into an area.
When you enter the area you may get in at the beginning or you may get in part way through
The public quest progresses as the objectives are completed
If the player (s) fail, the public quests end
Once all the stages of the event are completed the game rewards you with some loot based on your involvement in the public quest.
After a while the event restarts.
I have that basic concept right so far?
Okay now in GW2
You run into an area with a DE going (check)
When you enter the DE, you may or may not get in at the beginning (check)
As you complete objectives DE continues (check)
If the player fails it can continue down a different path (this is where it changes a bit)
Once all the stages are completed you get a reward based on your involvement with the DE (check)
Something happens to cause the DE to restart (like another DE causing the centaurs to attack the town again.) (more complex but check)
Looks pretty similar to me. mayhaps instead of just saying i'm wrong you might want to point out what i missed?
The reason i'm even trying to make this comparision and why it's on topic is to show that while DE may be complex PQ, we can see from past that PQ don't really encourage long term involvement with people, any more then regular quests do.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The difference between PQ's and DE's is that the PQ's from WAR weren't designed to keep people from staying grouped or to keep people working together, they were just there. Anet has put a major amount of thought and work into how the DE's will work and keep people together, that along with the cross-class combos will help keep people together and working cooperatively.
I think you are perhaps misunderstanding the chaining of events.
In a PQ or a Rift, you've got stages. At the completion of all the stages, either the PQ ends or the Rift closes. In the PQ case, it doesn't start again for a fixed amount of time. In the Rift case, if you are grouped you might go find another Rift, but it doesn't lead you to it. You might have only done this Rift because you stumbled across it or because it's right outside of town. The rest of the game is traditional quests.
GW2 has no traditional quests. There are 1500-1600 events which replace them completely. Another difference is that they chain from one event to the next. While this could be analogous to the stages of the Rift or PQ, it's also different. For one, it can move around the map. Second, it can have a different objective. To give an example, one event involves helping ogres defeat the harpies in control of the oasis so they can get water. If you succeed in helping them, then the 2nd event in the chain is being attacked by the wildlife who now want water because the harpies are no longer there. So you defend the ogres while they fill their buckets. The third step is to escort the ogres back to their village. This whole time people are battling cooperatively, traveling together, and supporting each other with cross profession combos and ressurections. The hope is that at the end of the event, people continue to travel down the road together, get told of a different event, and stick together throughout their play session.
There's a huge difference between dynamic events and traditional quests. Traditional quests you really have no incentive to group, and if you want to do them with a friend, you need to be on the same stage of the quest. You might not want to play by yourself, because you'll just have to help your friend do the same quest when they get on.
Dynamic events happen whether players are there or not. You can jump in anytime. The game automentors people down in strength so they can't overpower an event and ruin it for others. You and your friend can always play with each other, just by traveling together and finding events. They can even sidekick up to your level to do higher level stuff.
Like I said before, it's purely cooperative as well. There's no tagging of mobs. There's no ninja looting. There's no starting an escort quest just as you run up or stealing a node while you're fighting a guy. It will be designed so there is no griefing at all humanly possible in the game.
Couple that with the cross profession combos, being rewarded for rezzing others, and the scaling of events, and you really have a system that is doing everything possible to encourage communication and cooperation. If people refuse to take advantage of it, then its the player's fault, not ArenaNet's.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
It is impossible to promote Social gaming in a society that is now predominatly anti-social. MMO community are now about the 'self' ratehr than the group... the good of the one outweighs the good of the many...
First of all, why is everyone reducing GW2 to DEs? That isn't the only way to socialize, yes it does help but let's look at the game as a whole.
Yes DEs are sort of like complex PQs but the few differences between them set them worlds apart in all actuality. Dynamic Events actually have a purpose. They further your personal story, they branch off into different directions, changing your "story" or your experience as a whole, making it completely unique to another person in another part of the world. They actually change the world around you. Choosing to follow a certain dynamic event or deciding to "let the town burn" will change how you progress through the game. PQs were there as a way to just get some quick exp with a few other people. So with DEs, socialization will feel more important as you experience the story and the game together.
I feel like PQs were just another way to grind, when you have an actual impact, you and your "group" (you don't actually have to invite each other at all) will feel more like an single entity forcing the world to bend to your will. Not only that but you don't have to wait for someone to be on the same part of a chain as you. Anyone can come in and contribute at any time and join in. Sounds great to me!
Outside of DEs, you will also find that the cities have been catered to socialization in that they are very alive environments, they have mini games, areas that people will flock to in order to get in groups, or challenge each other to the shooting range, strip down and dance emote etc... whatever you want to do. Not only that but you are constantly going back to your home city to go to your "home" world, since your personal story/the way you go about DEs will make an impact on that part of the city.
Also, let's face it, Guild Wars had pretty decent PvE thanks to the story/cinmetics, world, voice overs etc... but the game was primarily focused around PvP. PvP always requires socialization. Collective knowledge was huge in the original GWs because in order to combat certain builds or formulate a completely new and unique strategy, a pool of knowledge was much better than the mind of one. I don't expect that ideal to change.
That isn't really true. GW2 have quests as well, but they are mainly for soloplayers even if they scale, it is mostly instanced stuff they call "Personal storyline".
So GW2 have both but you wont really see the soloplayers much.
Add in the dungeons and the PvE part should be varied enough.
He said no TRADITIONAL quests.
Yeah. Jeff Strains ideas were that he wanted to change that and encourage social behavior instead of rewarding people for being bastards.
The carrot is mightier than the stick and I actually think this will at least partly work.
Of course I actually believe that it is mainly the games that makes people so selfish and not the other way around, I have been known to be wrong before.
The instanced personal story quests are pretty traditional even if the instances scale.
Maybe it will improve things socially?
Here's some differences:
1. Dynamic Events replace quests. In War you had PQs in addition to quests. So how will this affect the social side? Well guess everyone will be interested in doing this dynamic content. This could lead to a sorta bread-crumb routine of being sucked along for the ride and that might get groups forming and then going off on tangents in an organic manner. As another poster said: Force kids to play: "PLAY damn you!" lol so it seems it's not forced fun which is a good thing imo?
2. Next there's no competition: Ie no kill stealing, no whinging about giving the purple loot bag to me this time etc or having to redo it for a sh*ty roll.
3. The content is intended to scale so that a lot of players can join in and the experience is immersive/interactive for them all as it would be with more or less numbers albeit you may see a few different things. Don't think this applies to every DE, and if DEs are very varied in their triggers it might be a good thing that players rock up and it's "not there" and get off their fat asses and go and find something creative to do!
I think the best thing appears to be that there will be some content that caters to huge numbers but there will be the flexibility to do content solo, co-op, small group of mates, pug, large zerg etc... then I think it sorta allows players to find what they want when they want.
4. Also everyone on one server is on the same side is a good idea for WvW.
5. Finally one thing that I anticipate a lot of good to come from could be that b2p could decrease players feeling precious because their monthly sub is being devalued by some other players?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
First of all Rift is in beta so stop making assumptions especially about lvl cap'd play.
Second, you don't want to sit around yelling "looking for a healer" but you also want a game with a similar feeling to FFXI? These are contradictory statements. Anyone who has played FFXI knows you sit around yelling for a healer.
Third, GW2 is attempting to promote the social aspect by allowing players to come and go as they please. One big thing everyone seems to be forgetting is right in the name of the game GUILD!!! You want a group of trusted friends who are willing to help out consistently and that also allow you to form a "proper group"?? Join a guild
Nomss - Stop complaining because DCUO isn't what you thought it would be. Don't tear apart Rift when it's still in Beta. And for crying out loud if you can't see the social aspect of a game that has the word "Guild" in its title you need to get your eyes checked.
"For the good of the colony"
This sounds like half the DDO groups I'm in and 90% of the WoW groups for the past two years. The main difference is I'm not forced to group in order to see the majority of the content. If an event is taking place while I'm wandering by, I can just jump in. No muss, no fuss and no LFG spam and waiting an hour for a healer to grace us with their presence. On the other hand, the option is there if I want to team up with a few friends. But it remains just an option.
I frankly don't see why this is such a concern. Most groups in other games are formed out of necessity, not because people enjoy one another's company. In GW2, most groups will be formed because individuals actually want a social game experience. We needn't yield to the mechanics of the game, it yields to us. I simply don't see a downside.
Besides, there will still be some tougher content that requires teamwork, it will just be the exception, not the rule. Thumbs up from me.
"Guild" was also in the title of "Guild wars"....the one where you didnt have to group or join guilds, just hire henchmen to run around with.
only the majority of the content was undoable with henchmen; they where mainly place holders for when the're weren't enough players around to group with
I dont think GW2's DE's will promote grouping or social interactions..
I think it'll be alot like Rift/War's Rifts/Public Quests.You show up, you complete the objectives together (but not grouped) and then proceed to the next DE to rinse repeat.
I dont think people will be inclined to group or socialize with this method at all.
I think it would be better stated that the personal storyline is just that, a storyline. You choose the direction it goes with your own decisions, save a hospital or save an orphanage was one popular example. Saying its a traditional quest makes it sound like its a linear unbranching kill x at point y. Your actions in your storyline have permanent consaquences, if you choose to let someone die, they stay dead. That doesnt happen in a traditional mmo quest.
Also if your talking about "traditional quests" in the open world, then you probably mean the "activities" that surtain npcs will ask you to do. These are mainly things to do while you wait for an event to happen in the vacinity, which generaly takes no more than a minuet or two. (an example of this would be to help watering a farmers crops, and then seeing an event in which bandits are lighting that farmers hay on fire and you run over to participate)
I think this will be a common occurrence, but I'm also wondering if ppl will want to replay the content again with a smaller group as a different experience further down the line? That's could be another way to look at it also?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Why should you shout LFG , or looking for a healer, or LF tank, like so many people have said, find friends, joina guild, why the hell does everyone want to PUG ??
MMO's are way more fun when played with real life friends, if they dont play, be a good player, a nice guy and you will make great friends in game , join their guild, and there you go, no need to be in chat spamming LFG
The part in Red is wrong at least from the interviews I have read, with Dynamic events you do not complete a set list of stages and get a reward (they do not want people to try and force certain outcomes to happen). From my understanding you get a reward of Karma and gold for each chain in a dynamic event. So it would be more like if a PQ from war gave you a reward after each section instead of waiting for you to beat the PQ. An example for a DE would be you join the arena in the Charr territory and you become part of a group for the first wave, then you have to log. You would get Karma and gold for that first wave, while the rest of the group could do the rest of the DE and get Karma and gold for each branch of the DE.
This to me is a big difference between PQ and what Anet is trying to do with dynamic events, there is no ending if you do not want there to be one. You can just keep following the chain of events and get rewarded for ever chain you and your group participate in. You will not have to go and try to find another active PQ across the zone and hope you get it early enough to get a change at the reward. You just join do that part of the chain get the reward then move onto the next part of the chain.
I think the problem would be solved if the DEs would become much harder for larger groups of people (so not the scaling version like in oblivion where everything felt so easy..)
tzhis would promote people to talk to each other, telling themselves what to focus on and what to do in certain time
and after the fight people would be like : woot that was one hell of a fight bla bla.. since they'd feel like they actually acomplished something..
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
I think the real social glue in GW2 is going to be the lack of traditional quests combined with the player scaling/side-kicking system.
Without that annoying quest log to grind out, you will be able to play any level content with friends of any character level. So many times in other MMOs you want to play with someone ( a R/L friend, or an old guild buddy) but because you already completed certain quests with your character you can't help, or worse, you are too powerful and you end up making the content boring for your friend. That's where the real changes in the social aspect is going to be--your existing network, not creating new.
Creating new social ties in in GW2 will happen just like it has always happened in MMOs--you do some common activity, you like their style, you ask to put them on your F-list, you split after your common goals are done, then you PM the guy next week when you are bored/finished you own personal story.
As for maintaining you social ties, there's not going to be much in the way to impede that (maybe you need to explore to get to the outpost your friend is at (or maybe you could meet halfway), but thats part of the world experience). You can go help your buddies in low level areas, bring them to high level areas, help them with their personal story, even take the new guys into high level competitive pvp just to see them get pwned... er, I mean teach them the ropes
Its going to be easier than ever to play with who you want to play with, when you want to play--no waiting for them to level up, finish a quest, or wait on a healer for the party. And because of that, the game is going to seem more social--more groups in low level areas, etc.--not necessarily because it is more social, but because there isn't a restriction on who and when you can socialize with. In other words, you can party with the people that other games wouldn't let you party with because of restrictions.