Sadly PvE is the only dynamic MMOs have delivered on for me, any game with classes built for PvE have been poor as far as PvP is concerned for me (I never played DAoC, was still busy in EQ)- and while I certainly don't advocate grinding dungeons as "content" I will say that devs have made far better PvE MMOs than PvP ones.
I have to vehemently disagree with you on the final point- persistent worlds especially are for massive (remember that part of MMORPG?) co-op versus whatever the devs have unleashed. One only needs to go back to the late '90s to see some spectacular examples, and even in WoW (which I admit I enjoyed in vanilla) had the events for opening the gates of AQ.
I daresay with the limitations of servers/bandwidth/etc that it is PvP that is best suited for multiplayer games such as FPS games or League of Legends. In a MMO that has a PvE basis not only is balanced PvP an exercise in futility, but through what many of us has seen in other MMOs (particularly the failures) a lapse of good judgment as well.
The technical issues are getting less of a problem as time goes.
The real problem is that most devs seems to make a PvE game and then put in a little PvP just for the heck of it.
That isn't good enough. A game with both should be so designed from the start and it should have it's own special mechanics. If it mixes both or keeps them separated doesn't matter much to me as long as they are both well done.
I rather play good PvE than bad PvP and the other way around. And I have to admit that while FPS games have mastered PvP better and better havn't MMOs done as well.
If you look on the PvP mechanics of Doom and a modern FPS game it is night and day. MMOs never evolved PvP that good. There is a reason that PvE is most popular in MMOs while PvP is most popular in FPS games, FPS games have evolved that way on purpose and MMOs needs to evolve it's PvP as well.
What the fuck is the point in an MMO without PVP? Might as well play single player or co op games. MMO's are for PVP. How can you get any satisfaction from defeating a computer? Carebears astound me. No competitive nature at all.
Blame the success of WoW for the massive influx of carebears into online gaming. In both good and bad ways... online gaming before late 2004 was an entirely different animal than it is today.
Cry more, "hardcore" twits who think tehre special because the prefer pvp to pve, rofl, heres a hint for all teh "hardcore" whiners, people play games to have fun, not so you can inflate your epeen by jumping me with 6 other people then claiming your superiority for "kicking my ass"
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Blame the success of WoW for the massive influx of carebears into online gaming. In both good and bad ways... online gaming before late 2004 was an entirely different animal than it is today.
It is rude to insult MMO players because they prefer a different type of gameplay then you. and the whole carebear insult builds on that you assume that any player that prefer PvE or PvP that isn't FFA plays worse than the ones that does. Best PvP players I ever met have been in Guildwars, and I played a lot of MMOs for many years.
The reason of Wow success is partly because it was well coded and partly because Blizzard got it's fanbase from Diablo, Starcradt and Warcraft to start playing.
And the good PvP ideas that came in games like DaoC were never really that well taken care of.
MMOs will change again, and I hope they will try to rework the PvP to be more fun. Because PvP can be incredible fun but it rarely is, for me at least it's often just gets up to amusing.
The technical issues are getting less of a problem as time goes.
The real problem is that most devs seems to make a PvE game and then put in a little PvP just for the heck of it.
That isn't good enough. A game with both should be so designed from the start and it should have it's own special mechanics. If it mixes both or keeps them separated doesn't matter much to me as long as they are both well done.
I rather play good PvE than bad PvP and the other way around. And I have to admit that while FPS games have mastered PvP better and better havn't MMOs done as well.
If you look on the PvP mechanics of Doom and a modern FPS game it is night and day. MMOs never evolved PvP that good. There is a reason that PvE is most popular in MMOs while PvP is most popular in FPS games, FPS games have evolved that way on purpose and MMOs needs to evolve it's PvP as well.
I can certainly agree- and while MMORPGs that have been designed from the ground up specificly for PvP have been better for PvP I have yet to see a MMO completely dedicated to PvP. MMOs have been completely dedicated to PvE because it's very doable and simply put more people play MMORPGs for PvE- it's something the genre does pretty well.
I can't even fathom how a completely... I'll just call it a MMOPVP game would work. I suppose in a persistent world, with more than two factions, robust crafting systems with mats easily gathered from looted opponents would be a start but would people really want to be in a massive, persistent world where they only fight other player characters? I suppose in some genres like sci-fi that could work well but in fantasy with humanoids fighting other humanoids it sounds extremely boring.
I can certainly agree- and while MMORPGs that have been designed from the ground up specificly for PvP have been better for PvP I have yet to see a MMO completely dedicated to PvP. MMOs have been completely dedicated to PvE because it's very doable and simply put more people play MMORPGs for PvE- it's something the genre does pretty well.
I can't even fathom how a completely... I'll just call it a MMOPVP game would work. I suppose in a persistent world, with more than two factions, robust crafting systems with mats easily gathered from looted opponents would be a start but would people really want to be in a massive, persistent world where they only fight other player characters? I suppose in some genres like sci-fi that could work well but in fantasy with humanoids fighting other humanoids it sounds extremely boring.
I could imagine a low fantasy game, something around the line of George RR Martins "A game of throne*".
Skip magic altogether and focus the game on close combat. I been considering a bit if you could base a combat sytem on the manuevers that a bunch of german fencing manuals from the 15th century teaches. Something where your fastkey bar changes after the last attack/parry you made. I have the idea that a more realistic combat system actually should be more fun instead of less.
Than add several complex factions, betrayals, spying, disguises, tactics and so on. Let players form knight orders that makes their own laws and reward them for upholding them like that.
Just taking EQ or Wow and making it PvP only wont work.
What the fuck is the point in an MMO without PVP? Might as well play single player or co op games. MMO's are for PVP. How can you get any satisfaction from defeating a computer? Carebears astound me. No competitive nature at all.
Blame the success of WoW for the massive influx of carebears into online gaming. In both good and bad ways... online gaming before late 2004 was an entirely different animal than it is today.
It is rude to insult MMO players because they prefer a different type of gameplay then you. and the whole carebear insult builds on that you assume that any player that prefer PvE or PvP that isn't FFA plays worse than the ones that does. Best PvP players I ever met have been in Guildwars, and I played a lot of MMOs for many years.
The reason of Wow success is partly because it was well coded and partly because Blizzard got it's fanbase from Diablo, Starcradt and Warcraft to start playing.
And the good PvP ideas that came in games like DaoC were never really that well taken care of.
MMOs will change again, and I hope they will try to rework the PvP to be more fun. Because PvP can be incredible fun but it rarely is, for me at least it's often just gets up to amusing.
Don't take it as an insult.. it's a term to describe a gamer that prefers PvE and either doesn't want to engage in PvP... or only prefers to engage in PvP in a consenual manner with no risk.
Not only in terms of raw numbers... but as a percentage of online gamers that population has EXPLODED in the last 10 years. There are a few different reasons for this... but Blizzard really enjoyed the financial benefits - and it is easy to see why many companies shifted their focus to making games with features to make this crowd happy.
Balance is always that prick (the sharp ones) in dev's back where they can't quite reach. I agree with you OP, however also understand many players invest so much time into their MMO to find out there is no way the class they play to complete. When most people realize this they tend to cry for change instead of thinking about strategies with others, ignore 1v1 PvP aspects, aggravation is the eternal fuel for QQs and most gamers have 0 dodge against it!
Purely PVP games that exist or have existed are shit. None have been executed correctly. PVP in MMO's just needs to grow and evolve. So statements about PVP being redundant in mmos can fuck off. And NOT be completely ruled out of the genre. Whoever brought oup that idea is insane. Why should PVP only exist in FPS? MMO's have a completely different format of PVP to FPS. What if I prefer the MMO format to FPS? Fucking elitest carebears. To me the greatest PVP experience is one where I can have a persistent character in a persistent world where I can make a difference. This world should be run by people like myself. Not by NPCs. A world where my character matters. My character doesn't matter to anyone in a half hour session of Counter-Strike. MMO's can give us the chance for epic battles with hundreds of players at once. How does this sort of PVP not appeal to you? MMO's enhances the scale of PVP immensely. You cannot get this scale or persistence with FPS. The idea that I could run a town and have to defend the town with my townspeople from other attackers gets me randy. The idea that I have defend a town from a bunch of NPC's makes me flaccid. NPC's have no brain. That's what makes MMO's boring and timewasting. I see gaming as a sport. As competition. As a fun game I play with other people and against other people. That's the whole point to me. And if you dickheads can't recognize this, then stop arguing with me. I understand that all you want to do is PVE and I accept that. Doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that you demand PVP be removed from your games because you're bloody selfish and refuse to see that other people find satisfaction in the game through other means. I can't really be fucked saying much more. I really could though.
Ohh and you weiners talking about epeens etc. I PVP for fun. Not so that I can brag and boast and tell the enemy I'm better than them. That's a retarded generalization that probably spawned from young Halo players teabagging. I enjoy PVP heaps and never get my panties twisted if I lose. And I never shit on the enemy. Unless they've shat on me first. Or maybe if I'm roleplaying. But that's roleplay. Also... I only call a carebear a carebear if they themselves think that there should be no PVP. Clearly they have no consideration for other players and their style. Like I said. No problem with PVE'rs. Big problem with selfish pricks.
People should balance their GROUPS, not the chars......thats what mmorpg's are all about.....playing in groups.
As for the comments on pvp.......i am not a realy big fan of pvp but if games wouldnt have pvp anymore that would be just bullsh*t imho......pvp is as much a part of the mmorpg games as crafting and dungeons.
.... MMO's enhances the scale of PVP immensely. You cannot get this scale or persistence with FPS...
Planetside.
They were at least on the way towards that... I hope the new version is an improvement on the original, not just a re-skinning. Though.. even a re-skinning would still be a pretty cool game.
Don't take it as an insult.. it's a term to describe a gamer that prefers PvE and either doesn't want to engage in PvP... or only prefers to engage in PvP in a consenual manner with no risk.
Not only in terms of raw numbers... but as a percentage of online gamers that population has EXPLODED in the last 10 years. There are a few different reasons for this... but Blizzard really enjoyed the financial benefits - and it is easy to see why many companies shifted their focus to making games with features to make this crowd happy.
I know that just like any none gamers call all of us geeks. But I still find it silly to insult eachother.
But I actually think that MMOs have evolved more PvE wise than PvP wise and that is the reason more people prefer it.
I have many friends who only play PvE but guess what? All of them love FPS games as well and play PvP there. That tells me that the reason so many more people play PvE is that it is better made than the PvP.
What have really happened sionce DaoC with PvP? Not much, a few games that copied UO have released. Eve is there of course but it released 2003 as well.
MMOs needs to make better PvP, they don't need to copy FPS games but just like FPS games have evolved it's PvP since doon so nee MMOs to do.
As for me I want to have fun. I can play either PvP or PvE as long as it is well made. But open world PvP is actually worse now then it was when I played Lineage.
I can't really be fucked saying much more. I really could though.
And I'm sure that it would be as thought-provoking, eloquent, and insightful as your other posts- however you're not in a thread saying PvP should be removed from MMOs. What's been said is that MMOs that were designed primarily (that means mostly) for PvE have done PvP poorly, and FPS games (for example) have done PvP far better. I'll quote specific parts of your post that I'd like to comment on.
"What if I prefer the MMO format to FPS?" Then I'd say you enjoy unbalanced gameplay.
"A world where my character matters. My character doesn't matter to anyone in a half hour session of Counter-Strike." Good luck.
"MMO's can give us the chance for epic battles with hundreds of players at once. How does this sort of PVP not appeal to you?" It doesn't appeal to me because they wind up being zerg fests and that has nothing to do with competition, it's only about who gathered larger forces.
There really isn't any value to the rest of the post aside from citing that different players enjoy different modes of gameplay, which I'm sure is a revelation to anyone reading these forums.
Age of Conan has messed up with all the Balancing that is done only for PvP. They will say otherwise but they have tried to Balance 1vs1 bcs of all the complaining.
At all PvP is still unbalanced and PvE has lost many cool sklills and abilities nerfed to uselessness.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Rock-Paper-Scissors is also called Game Balance. Game balance is not about "equal possibilities in PvP for each class" it's about making game mechanics to work as intended (EDIT: the same for PvE).
If developer wants each class to be equal to any other class 1vs1, then he choses one type of PvP balance. If developer wants different classes to be unequal in 1vs1 but still be a strong addition to any group, then he choses another type of PvP balance.
And different players prefer different types of PvP and PvE balance, that's all. End of story
I can't really be fucked saying much more. I really could though.
And I'm sure that it would be as thought-provoking, eloquent, and insightful as your other posts- however you're not in a thread saying PvP should be removed from MMOs. What's been said is that MMOs that were designed primarily (that means mostly) for PvE have done PvP poorly, and FPS games (for example) have done PvP far better. I'll quote specific parts of your post that I'd like to comment on.
"What if I prefer the MMO format to FPS?" Then I'd say you enjoy unbalanced gameplay.
That's the whole point of the thread... I do enjoy it because that's how real life works. I play EVE and there is never a balanced battle. That's just the way it is. That's how life works.
"MMO's can give us the chance for epic battles with hundreds of players at once. How does this sort of PVP not appeal to you?" It doesn't appeal to me because they wind up being zerg fests and that has nothing to do with competition, it's only about who gathered larger forces.
You're an idiot. Ever heard of leadership and tactics? Were great battles throughout time won purely by numbers or because of great leadership and tactial choices and advancements? I'm not big on war history but I know there are plenty of examples where this is the case. You're just not giving MMO's a chance for this to happen. It happens in EVE.
There really isn't any value to the rest of the post aside from citing that different players enjoy different modes of gameplay, which I'm sure is a revelation to anyone reading these forums.
It does actually seem to be a revelation to some. Because to me it sounds like a lot of inconsiderate people just want PVP rid of because it doesn't appeal to them and slows down the development of their PVE side of the games.
Basically PVP MMO's can never really be fully balanced. It'd be dull if it was completely balanced anyway. In a balanced battle the outcome would be boring and you might as well just roll dice or flip a coin to see who wins.
I can't really be fucked saying much more. I really could though.
And I'm sure that it would be as thought-provoking, eloquent, and insightful as your other posts- however you're not in a thread saying PvP should be removed from MMOs. What's been said is that MMOs that were designed primarily (that means mostly) for PvE have done PvP poorly, and FPS games (for example) have done PvP far better. I'll quote specific parts of your post that I'd like to comment on.
"What if I prefer the MMO format to FPS?" Then I'd say you enjoy unbalanced gameplay.
That's the whole point of the thread... I do enjoy it because that's how real life works. I play EVE and there is never a balanced battle. That's just the way it is. That's how life works.
"MMO's can give us the chance for epic battles with hundreds of players at once. How does this sort of PVP not appeal to you?" It doesn't appeal to me because they wind up being zerg fests and that has nothing to do with competition, it's only about who gathered larger forces.
You're an idiot. Ever heard of leadership and tactics? Were great battles throughout time won purely by numbers or because of great leadership and tactial choices and advancements? I'm not big on war history but I know there are plenty of examples where this is the case. You're just not giving MMO's a chance for this to happen. It happens in EVE.
There really isn't any value to the rest of the post aside from citing that different players enjoy different modes of gameplay, which I'm sure is a revelation to anyone reading these forums.
It does actually seem to be a revelation to some. Because to me it sounds like a lot of inconsiderate people just want PVP rid of because it doesn't appeal to them and slows down the development of their PVE side of the games.
Basically PVP MMO's can never really be fully balanced. It'd be dull if it was completely balanced anyway. In a balanced battle the outcome would be boring and you might as well just roll dice or flip a coin to see who wins.
You mean like watching two equally geared protection warriors go at it 1 on 1? Yeah seen plenty of those 2 hour match up that end in a beer at the local tavern after they both agree to a draw.
Oh and the idea that a larger zerg can and always will win in an MMO PvP setting, you obviously never played DAoC. I can't even remember how many times a well planned and exectuted smaller force took down a zerg of sometimes 3, 4, or even 5 times its size. The only reason to believe the zerg count matters is if you never engaged in anything but zerg warfare.
Oh and on the whole balance thing, I agree, in both directions. I think that whatever class I am playing at any particular moment should be seriously OP to whatever class I am attempting to destory in PvP. And this should change as I change characters (just in case I run into whatever I just got done playing). Now, if that can't be accomplished, then I agree every class should be balanced 100% to all the others so I never lose a battle. It just isnt' fun to lose and I think everyone can agree on that one.
Sarcasm aside though, make of your play what you can of it. If your into PvP and play a class you always lose fights on, well change class. It may not be the class isn't balanced, it may be you suck at playing it (and yes, I suck at glass cannon classes so this is a possability - not everyone is good at every style of play - thats just a fact).
And yes this is the same as IRL, I can toss a mean right hook because I was once a hell of a good boxer, but I suck at any type of martial arts that requires legwork. Get me in a fight against another fists fighter and I got a good shot, put me up against a kicker and I'm all done for. And no I dont care how much more in shape I am or he is, its the style that matters in the fight. Either you can play that style or you can't.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
"MMO's can give us the chance for epic battles with hundreds of players at once. How does this sort of PVP not appeal to you?" It doesn't appeal to me because they wind up being zerg fests and that has nothing to do with competition, it's only about who gathered larger forces.
You're an idiot. Ever heard of leadership and tactics? Were great battles throughout time won purely by numbers or because of great leadership and tactial choices and advancements? I'm not big on war history but I know there are plenty of examples where this is the case. You're just not giving MMO's a chance for this to happen. It happens in EVE.
You mean like watching two equally geared protection warriors go at it 1 on 1? Yeah seen plenty of those 2 hour match up that end in a beer at the local tavern after they both agree to a draw.
Oh and the idea that a larger zerg can and always will win in an MMO PvP setting, you obviously never played DAoC. I can't even remember how many times a well planned and exectuted smaller force took down a zerg of sometimes 3, 4, or even 5 times its size. The only reason to believe the zerg count matters is if you never engaged in anything but zerg warfare.
Yeah that's the point I was meaning. I pretty much agree with your whole post. Much better at explaining things than I am good sir.
Without balance, decisions don't matter and games aren't interesting.
Balance doesn't mean all playstyles play exactly the same, only that all playstyles are equally valuable/viable.
The less balance a game has, the less interesting it tends to be. For example, EVE may have a certain amount of playstyle balance but any given PVE or PVP battle tends to be so one-sided (unbalanced) that decisions are virtually meaningless (the battle is won before it even starts.) As a result, even though that playstyle balance may (or may not) be there, the pre-determined nature of combat causes most fights to be pretty dull.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"MMO's can give us the chance for epic battles with hundreds of players at once. How does this sort of PVP not appeal to you?" It doesn't appeal to me because they wind up being zerg fests and that has nothing to do with competition, it's only about who gathered larger forces.
Ever seen a skilled 16 man grp rape a 45 people zerg in daoc? If you are totally unskilled you probably won't be invited to such groups and think the game is just about the player numbers on each side but it really isn't.
However I cannot say anything about PvP in other MMORPGs since I didn't find fun in any of them. DAoC probably set the bar too high.
I couldnt agree more with the OP. No MMORPG should be balanced so that everyone would be the same. And even worse no MMOPRG should be balanced for PvP!
MMO games are about groups not about individuals. WoW adopted this "you can play MMOs alone" sh*t and it worked for them really good, but I think that MMOs shouldnt be like that. MMOs are about grouping with other players so you could defeat the bad guys who would otherwise kill you in one blow. People should group and fill roles in a group then co-operate and kill that LichKing or whatever. Why a priest should be equally strong as a warrior. Priest wear robes for god sakes. And to those who are about to say "fool is pixels not real world", yea its not a real world but its a RPG nonetheless.
Another thing I want to talk about it PvPers... We see them in this thread calling guys who like PvE carebears and so on and so forth... Well that shows PvPers mentality and why games like WAR or [forgot the name... Dark... something or..] are not popular at all and old grandpa LOTRO strives (compared to those PvP games).
MMORPGs derived from PvE games, they were ment to be PvE. Whats the point? Its a joy when you advance, co-operate with your group and do something that you wouldnt have done alone. And then of course there is a loot Why not to play a co-op game? Because there is a big difference when you clear the dungeon and just finish the game and when you do it in a *world full of other people, a living world*.
Now I dont get the joy of PvP. What is it all about? How can it be joyful to kill, gank, take other guy's loot? Why is it cool to be elitist and ruin the game for other by ganking? Whats the joy to kill fellow players on the arenas? Is is that it makes you feel better than others? But why dont you study hard and become better then others IRL? That would be way more rewarding.... This I dont get.
Comments
The technical issues are getting less of a problem as time goes.
The real problem is that most devs seems to make a PvE game and then put in a little PvP just for the heck of it.
That isn't good enough. A game with both should be so designed from the start and it should have it's own special mechanics. If it mixes both or keeps them separated doesn't matter much to me as long as they are both well done.
I rather play good PvE than bad PvP and the other way around. And I have to admit that while FPS games have mastered PvP better and better havn't MMOs done as well.
If you look on the PvP mechanics of Doom and a modern FPS game it is night and day. MMOs never evolved PvP that good. There is a reason that PvE is most popular in MMOs while PvP is most popular in FPS games, FPS games have evolved that way on purpose and MMOs needs to evolve it's PvP as well.
Cry more, "hardcore" twits who think tehre special because the prefer pvp to pve, rofl, heres a hint for all teh "hardcore" whiners, people play games to have fun, not so you can inflate your epeen by jumping me with 6 other people then claiming your superiority for "kicking my ass"
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
It is rude to insult MMO players because they prefer a different type of gameplay then you. and the whole carebear insult builds on that you assume that any player that prefer PvE or PvP that isn't FFA plays worse than the ones that does. Best PvP players I ever met have been in Guildwars, and I played a lot of MMOs for many years.
The reason of Wow success is partly because it was well coded and partly because Blizzard got it's fanbase from Diablo, Starcradt and Warcraft to start playing.
And the good PvP ideas that came in games like DaoC were never really that well taken care of.
MMOs will change again, and I hope they will try to rework the PvP to be more fun. Because PvP can be incredible fun but it rarely is, for me at least it's often just gets up to amusing.
I can certainly agree- and while MMORPGs that have been designed from the ground up specificly for PvP have been better for PvP I have yet to see a MMO completely dedicated to PvP. MMOs have been completely dedicated to PvE because it's very doable and simply put more people play MMORPGs for PvE- it's something the genre does pretty well.
I can't even fathom how a completely... I'll just call it a MMOPVP game would work. I suppose in a persistent world, with more than two factions, robust crafting systems with mats easily gathered from looted opponents would be a start but would people really want to be in a massive, persistent world where they only fight other player characters? I suppose in some genres like sci-fi that could work well but in fantasy with humanoids fighting other humanoids it sounds extremely boring.
I could imagine a low fantasy game, something around the line of George RR Martins "A game of throne*".
Skip magic altogether and focus the game on close combat. I been considering a bit if you could base a combat sytem on the manuevers that a bunch of german fencing manuals from the 15th century teaches. Something where your fastkey bar changes after the last attack/parry you made. I have the idea that a more realistic combat system actually should be more fun instead of less.
Than add several complex factions, betrayals, spying, disguises, tactics and so on. Let players form knight orders that makes their own laws and reward them for upholding them like that.
Just taking EQ or Wow and making it PvP only wont work.
Don't take it as an insult.. it's a term to describe a gamer that prefers PvE and either doesn't want to engage in PvP... or only prefers to engage in PvP in a consenual manner with no risk.
Not only in terms of raw numbers... but as a percentage of online gamers that population has EXPLODED in the last 10 years. There are a few different reasons for this... but Blizzard really enjoyed the financial benefits - and it is easy to see why many companies shifted their focus to making games with features to make this crowd happy.
Balance is always that prick (the sharp ones) in dev's back where they can't quite reach. I agree with you OP, however also understand many players invest so much time into their MMO to find out there is no way the class they play to complete. When most people realize this they tend to cry for change instead of thinking about strategies with others, ignore 1v1 PvP aspects, aggravation is the eternal fuel for QQs and most gamers have 0 dodge against it!
Purely PVP games that exist or have existed are shit. None have been executed correctly. PVP in MMO's just needs to grow and evolve. So statements about PVP being redundant in mmos can fuck off. And NOT be completely ruled out of the genre. Whoever brought oup that idea is insane. Why should PVP only exist in FPS? MMO's have a completely different format of PVP to FPS. What if I prefer the MMO format to FPS? Fucking elitest carebears. To me the greatest PVP experience is one where I can have a persistent character in a persistent world where I can make a difference. This world should be run by people like myself. Not by NPCs. A world where my character matters. My character doesn't matter to anyone in a half hour session of Counter-Strike. MMO's can give us the chance for epic battles with hundreds of players at once. How does this sort of PVP not appeal to you? MMO's enhances the scale of PVP immensely. You cannot get this scale or persistence with FPS. The idea that I could run a town and have to defend the town with my townspeople from other attackers gets me randy. The idea that I have defend a town from a bunch of NPC's makes me flaccid. NPC's have no brain. That's what makes MMO's boring and timewasting. I see gaming as a sport. As competition. As a fun game I play with other people and against other people. That's the whole point to me. And if you dickheads can't recognize this, then stop arguing with me. I understand that all you want to do is PVE and I accept that. Doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that you demand PVP be removed from your games because you're bloody selfish and refuse to see that other people find satisfaction in the game through other means. I can't really be fucked saying much more. I really could though.
Ohh and you weiners talking about epeens etc. I PVP for fun. Not so that I can brag and boast and tell the enemy I'm better than them. That's a retarded generalization that probably spawned from young Halo players teabagging. I enjoy PVP heaps and never get my panties twisted if I lose. And I never shit on the enemy. Unless they've shat on me first. Or maybe if I'm roleplaying. But that's roleplay. Also... I only call a carebear a carebear if they themselves think that there should be no PVP. Clearly they have no consideration for other players and their style. Like I said. No problem with PVE'rs. Big problem with selfish pricks.
i kinda agree with the OP.
People should balance their GROUPS, not the chars......thats what mmorpg's are all about.....playing in groups.
As for the comments on pvp.......i am not a realy big fan of pvp but if games wouldnt have pvp anymore that would be just bullsh*t imho......pvp is as much a part of the mmorpg games as crafting and dungeons.
but thats just mho
Planetside.
They were at least on the way towards that... I hope the new version is an improvement on the original, not just a re-skinning. Though.. even a re-skinning would still be a pretty cool game.
I know that just like any none gamers call all of us geeks. But I still find it silly to insult eachother.
But I actually think that MMOs have evolved more PvE wise than PvP wise and that is the reason more people prefer it.
I have many friends who only play PvE but guess what? All of them love FPS games as well and play PvP there. That tells me that the reason so many more people play PvE is that it is better made than the PvP.
What have really happened sionce DaoC with PvP? Not much, a few games that copied UO have released. Eve is there of course but it released 2003 as well.
MMOs needs to make better PvP, they don't need to copy FPS games but just like FPS games have evolved it's PvP since doon so nee MMOs to do.
As for me I want to have fun. I can play either PvP or PvE as long as it is well made. But open world PvP is actually worse now then it was when I played Lineage.
And I'm sure that it would be as thought-provoking, eloquent, and insightful as your other posts- however you're not in a thread saying PvP should be removed from MMOs. What's been said is that MMOs that were designed primarily (that means mostly) for PvE have done PvP poorly, and FPS games (for example) have done PvP far better. I'll quote specific parts of your post that I'd like to comment on.
"What if I prefer the MMO format to FPS?" Then I'd say you enjoy unbalanced gameplay.
"A world where my character matters. My character doesn't matter to anyone in a half hour session of Counter-Strike." Good luck.
"MMO's can give us the chance for epic battles with hundreds of players at once. How does this sort of PVP not appeal to you?" It doesn't appeal to me because they wind up being zerg fests and that has nothing to do with competition, it's only about who gathered larger forces.
There really isn't any value to the rest of the post aside from citing that different players enjoy different modes of gameplay, which I'm sure is a revelation to anyone reading these forums.
Age of Conan has messed up with all the Balancing that is done only for PvP.
They will say otherwise but they have tried to Balance 1vs1 bcs of all the complaining.
At all PvP is still unbalanced and PvE has lost many cool sklills and abilities nerfed to uselessness.
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MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Rock-Paper-Scissors is also called Game Balance. Game balance is not about "equal possibilities in PvP for each class" it's about making game mechanics to work as intended (EDIT: the same for PvE).
If developer wants each class to be equal to any other class 1vs1, then he choses one type of PvP balance. If developer wants different classes to be unequal in 1vs1 but still be a strong addition to any group, then he choses another type of PvP balance.
And different players prefer different types of PvP and PvE balance, that's all. End of story
Basically PVP MMO's can never really be fully balanced. It'd be dull if it was completely balanced anyway. In a balanced battle the outcome would be boring and you might as well just roll dice or flip a coin to see who wins.
You mean like watching two equally geared protection warriors go at it 1 on 1? Yeah seen plenty of those 2 hour match up that end in a beer at the local tavern after they both agree to a draw.
Oh and the idea that a larger zerg can and always will win in an MMO PvP setting, you obviously never played DAoC. I can't even remember how many times a well planned and exectuted smaller force took down a zerg of sometimes 3, 4, or even 5 times its size. The only reason to believe the zerg count matters is if you never engaged in anything but zerg warfare.
Oh and on the whole balance thing, I agree, in both directions. I think that whatever class I am playing at any particular moment should be seriously OP to whatever class I am attempting to destory in PvP. And this should change as I change characters (just in case I run into whatever I just got done playing). Now, if that can't be accomplished, then I agree every class should be balanced 100% to all the others so I never lose a battle. It just isnt' fun to lose and I think everyone can agree on that one.
Sarcasm aside though, make of your play what you can of it. If your into PvP and play a class you always lose fights on, well change class. It may not be the class isn't balanced, it may be you suck at playing it (and yes, I suck at glass cannon classes so this is a possability - not everyone is good at every style of play - thats just a fact).
And yes this is the same as IRL, I can toss a mean right hook because I was once a hell of a good boxer, but I suck at any type of martial arts that requires legwork. Get me in a fight against another fists fighter and I got a good shot, put me up against a kicker and I'm all done for. And no I dont care how much more in shape I am or he is, its the style that matters in the fight. Either you can play that style or you can't.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Yeah that's the point I was meaning. I pretty much agree with your whole post. Much better at explaining things than I am good sir.
Without balance, decisions don't matter and games aren't interesting.
Balance doesn't mean all playstyles play exactly the same, only that all playstyles are equally valuable/viable.
The less balance a game has, the less interesting it tends to be. For example, EVE may have a certain amount of playstyle balance but any given PVE or PVP battle tends to be so one-sided (unbalanced) that decisions are virtually meaningless (the battle is won before it even starts.) As a result, even though that playstyle balance may (or may not) be there, the pre-determined nature of combat causes most fights to be pretty dull.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You played EVE? For how long?
I agree with OP.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
The above is a perfect example of why many people do not want PvP to play a mayor role in their MMORPGs. If only PvP could be had without PvPers.
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Haha. I just got a little touchy cause people want to completely rule out PVP. I am obviously strongly against this.
Ever seen a skilled 16 man grp rape a 45 people zerg in daoc? If you are totally unskilled you probably won't be invited to such groups and think the game is just about the player numbers on each side but it really isn't.
However I cannot say anything about PvP in other MMORPGs since I didn't find fun in any of them. DAoC probably set the bar too high.
I couldnt agree more with the OP. No MMORPG should be balanced so that everyone would be the same. And even worse no MMOPRG should be balanced for PvP!
MMO games are about groups not about individuals. WoW adopted this "you can play MMOs alone" sh*t and it worked for them really good, but I think that MMOs shouldnt be like that. MMOs are about grouping with other players so you could defeat the bad guys who would otherwise kill you in one blow. People should group and fill roles in a group then co-operate and kill that LichKing or whatever. Why a priest should be equally strong as a warrior. Priest wear robes for god sakes. And to those who are about to say "fool is pixels not real world", yea its not a real world but its a RPG nonetheless.
Another thing I want to talk about it PvPers... We see them in this thread calling guys who like PvE carebears and so on and so forth... Well that shows PvPers mentality and why games like WAR or [forgot the name... Dark... something or..] are not popular at all and old grandpa LOTRO strives (compared to those PvP games).
MMORPGs derived from PvE games, they were ment to be PvE. Whats the point? Its a joy when you advance, co-operate with your group and do something that you wouldnt have done alone. And then of course there is a loot
Why not to play a co-op game? Because there is a big difference when you clear the dungeon and just finish the game and when you do it in a *world full of other people, a living world*.
Now I dont get the joy of PvP. What is it all about? How can it be joyful to kill, gank, take other guy's loot? Why is it cool to be elitist and ruin the game for other by ganking? Whats the joy to kill fellow players on the arenas? Is is that it makes you feel better than others? But why dont you study hard and become better then others IRL? That would be way more rewarding.... This I dont get.
Anyhow its probably tl;dr.....