"MMO's can give us the chance for epic battles with hundreds of players at once. How does this sort of PVP not appeal to you?" It doesn't appeal to me because they wind up being zerg fests and that has nothing to do with competition, it's only about who gathered larger forces.
Ever seen a skilled 16 man grp rape a 45 people zerg in daoc? If you are totally unskilled you probably won't be invited to such groups and think the game is just about the player numbers on each side but it really isn't.
However I cannot say anything about PvP in other MMORPGs since I didn't find fun in any of them. DAoC probably set the bar too high.
Negative, as I said earlier in the post, I've never played DAoC because I had plenty of friends in EQ1 at the time and for me MMOs were about a positive, cooperative community not how many players I could lift my leg on.
Again, there's room for PvP-based MMOs but they need to be designed that way from the ground up, not bogged down with PvE gameplay, however on the other side of the coin PvE games only suffer from PvP.
if there is no balance.... lets say class balance... WTF rogues a OP!!!!! they 1 hit anybody!!!!! everyone will play rogue then.,.. whats the purpose of having all other classes? maybe the devs remove all the other classes and make the mmorpg with only rogues available because they are so op... how cool is that? terrible.......
at least for pvp classes should be balanced, about other stuff i dont care balancing
There should be no PvP in MMOs, therefore no need to balance.
Dumb.
Agreed.
The thing is there doesn't even HAVE to be pvp in a game for the 'balance plz' crowd to crop up.
Usually it's all based on 'my friend's a rogue and he does more damage than my healer, no more', Then devs cave in to this failed logic.
Yeh...I mean look at all the complaining about the classes being unbalanced in PvE only games like Istaria, Vanguard, LoTRO, DDO, EQ2X,....oh wait....there really isn"t any complaining there, is there.
Balance is, and always has been about PvP. Nothing like PvP to screw up a good game.
For LotRO yes there is!
The recent rebalances and improvement's.
And FFXIV doesn't count toward anything. That game has bigger issues.
Rock-Paper-Scissors is also called Game Balance. Game balance is not about "equal possibilities in PvP for each class" it's about making game mechanics to work as intended (EDIT: the same for PvE).
If developer wants each class to be equal to any other class 1vs1, then he choses one type of PvP balance. If developer wants different classes to be unequal in 1vs1 but still be a strong addition to any group, then he choses another type of PvP balance.
And different players prefer different types of PvP and PvE balance, that's all. End of story
Excellent post. Wish I'd read it before posting, it sums up what I was trying to say much better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Devs haven't wasted any manhours designing and implementing additional classes/skills when they all are used somewhat equally
Players can enjoy a rich variety of classes, builds and skills because they are equally viable. They each have their strengths and weaknesses but none is clearly superior. Good balance creates options.
Balancing is hard and perfect balance is impossible to achieve. Giving up on balance is like giving up on science because every answer to one question creates three more questions. Devs should strive for perfect balance even if they can't reach it.
NOTE: I am talking about some form of rock, paper, scissors type of balance, not 1v1 balance.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
At first I disagreed. Generally it's more fair and more fun for me when everyone is on an equal playign field. But after thinking about it, the most fun I've had in MMORPGs is overcoming adversity and imbalance to win the day.
I also agree with the sentiment that games that do offer both PvE and PvP need to balance them separately, even if it means figuratively making two separate games.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
First and foremost I don't think anyone on this thread understands what balancing means in game design.
It seems as if the popular gameplay is balancing PVP in mmos. Well you CAN balance PVP and PVE. Maybe not in the same game but it can be done.
Gameplay SHOULD be balanced because it allows fluidity of consistent gameplay where that player has an ample opportunity to "win" agianst AI or another player. BALANCING does not mean every class or every ability is exactly alike. I will show you all how to properly balance PVE and PVE from a simple design perspective.
PVP Balancing
Since the majority of complaints are about class balance or no class balance for PVP, I'll stick to the class design rather than a sandbox design for now.
For Pvp design, you do not balance every class like ever class. Wow is a perfect example of bad balancing for pvp because every class has a similar ability in which another has. The objective is if there are other classes, each class' archetype will balanced in that spectrum. This does not mean every class can be on par with dps for other non dps archetypes. There are several things you have to balance.
1. Melee vs Caster --- This will be balanced by testing and through the type of combat mechanics used.
2. Archetypes - Tanks, Dps, Healers --- Archetypes should be balanced based on that archetype only. Here is what I mean from a pvp persepective.
Tanks = Moderate damage, and high mitigation against melee and moderate mitigation against casters
Dps Melee = High damage, and low to moderate mitigation against melee and moderate to low against casters
Caster Dps = High damage, and low mitigation against all melee and moderate to high mitigation against casters
Healers = Low damage, and high mitigation against all (through heals)
3. Classes --- This section has to complement the above archetype section. Class balance also means they stay true to that class. For an example, if a class focuses on snaring, or rooting and dots, should that class receive direct damage dps output as well? Absolutely not. Common class abilities will bleed over to other classes, however unique class abilities with unique class mechanics should NOT bleed over.
4. Class Abilities --- This section also has to complement the above class section. To balance out abilities they must be balanced within the type of ability and also with the opposite of what they will be dealing. For an example, determental magic vs a heal. The heal should be somewhat significant higher than a damage modifer. Cooldowns can somewhat balance abilities. But the best way to balance abilities, especially the over powering ones, is through PENALTY. So for an example....
Fireball does 1000 damage and has a 50% chance to do an extra 2000 damage on impact. So that is a pretty powering spell. You'd have to figure out the HP of characters with that level of the charatcer that obtains that ability. Let's say a characters HP is around 5000. Technically, if a player 'spams' that spell 5 times its going to kill the other player. Spaming of abilities and access to all abilities at once also dampens balance.
Here are some reasonable penalties to balance the fireball spell. A 3 minute cooldown of the ability it self or a cooldown of that type of magics school, a 25% chance to have kickback damage when casted because of the lack of stability of the powerful spell to caster. Possibly have to have a regeant of some kind to cast.
Anyways, I am going to be late for work, sorry of this felt rushed, I could go into more detail later. Please read this to get the essential understanding of what balance is.
Devs haven't wasted any manhours designing and implementing additional classes/skills when they all are used somewhat equally
Players can enjoy a rich variety of classes, builds and skills because they are equally viable. They each have their strengths and weaknesses but none is clearly superior. Good balance creates options.
Balancing is hard and perfect balance is impossible to achieve. Giving up on balance is like giving up on science because every answer to one question creates three more questions. Devs should strive for perfect balance even if they can't reach it.
NOTE: I am talking about some form of rock, paper, scissors type of balance, not 1v1 balance.
Agree 100% with all of that except the "additional classes/skills" bit.
Adding playstyles is something players want, and if you're badass at balancing the system then it's a win for both players and devs. League of Legends is a great example of this imo, and I feel GW1 was quite similar to LoL in how it implemented new playstyles (albeit at a MMORPG scale; classes are more complicated in MMORPGs so they are implemented far slower than new LoL champions.)
(Of course if a dev has failed to prove they can quickly and expertly balance classes, then adding new playstyles is out of the question.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
First and foremost I don't think anyone on this thread understands what balancing means in game design.
It seems as if the popular gameplay is balancing PVP in mmos. Well you CAN balance PVP and PVE. Maybe not in the same game but it can be done.
Gameplay SHOULD be balanced because it allows fluidity of consistent gameplay where that player has an ample opportunity to "win" agianst AI or another player. BALANCING does not mean every class or every ability is exactly alike. I will show you all how to properly balance PVE and PVE from a simple design perspective.
PVP Balancing
Since the majority of complaints are about class balance or no class balance for PVP, I'll stick to the class design rather than a sandbox design for now.
For Pvp design, you do not balance every class like ever class. Wow is a perfect example of bad balancing for pvp because every class has a similar ability in which another has. The objective is if there are other classes, each class' archetype will balanced in that spectrum. This does not mean every class can be on par with dps for other non dps archetypes. There are several things you have to balance.
1. Melee vs Caster --- This will be balanced by testing and through the type of combat mechanics used.
2. Archetypes - Tanks, Dps, Healers --- Archetypes should be balanced based on that archetype only. Here is what I mean from a pvp persepective.
Tanks = Moderate damage, and high mitigation against melee and moderate mitigation against casters
Dps Melee = High damage, and low to moderate mitigation against melee and moderate to low against casters
Caster Dps = High damage, and low mitigation against all melee and moderate to high mitigation against casters
Healers = Low damage, and high mitigation against all (through heals)
3. Classes --- This section has to complement the above archetype section. Class balance also means they stay true to that class. For an example, if a class focuses on snaring, or rooting and dots, should that class receive direct damage dps output as well? Absolutely not. Common class abilities will bleed over to other classes, however unique class abilities with unique class mechanics should NOT bleed over.
4. Class Abilities --- This section also has to complement the above class section. To balance out abilities they must be balanced within the type of ability and also with the opposite of what they will be dealing. For an example, determental magic vs a heal. The heal should be somewhat significant higher than a damage modifer. Cooldowns can somewhat balance abilities. But the best way to balance abilities, especially the over powering ones, is through PENALTY. So for an example....
Fireball does 1000 damage and has a 50% chance to do an extra 2000 damage on impact. So that is a pretty powering spell. You'd have to figure out the HP of characters with that level of the charatcer that obtains that ability. Let's say a characters HP is around 5000. Technically, if a player 'spams' that spell 5 times its going to kill the other player. Spaming of abilities and access to all abilities at once also dampens balance.
Here are some reasonable penalties to balance the fireball spell. A 3 minute cooldown of the ability it self or a cooldown of that type of magics school, a 25% chance to have kickback damage when casted because of the lack of stability of the powerful spell to caster. Possibly have to have a regeant of some kind to cast.
Anyways, I am going to be late for work, sorry of this felt rushed, I could go into more detail later. Please read this to get the essential understanding of what balance is.
First of doesn't all games even have the holy triad or classes. And removing the holy triad makes balancing easier. Some games have no magic at all. Your method works fine for games like Wow but not all games are like that.
Secondly is it possible to balance a game both in PvE and PvP, Guildwars is well balanced in both. Anet splits up PvE and PvP and add PvE only skills to make it work, it does. They have also balanced gear which in fact is the hardest part.
The reason no one actually have discussed how you balance is more because it is a lot of text, and we are more concerned with why and if we think it should be balanced or not.
(And anyone quoting this, please remove the above quote).
First of doesn't all games even have the holy triad or classes. And removing the holy triad makes balancing easier. Some games have no magic at all. Your method works fine for games like Wow but not all games are like that.
Secondly is it possible to balance a game both in PvE and PvP, Guildwars is well balanced in both. Anet splits up PvE and PvP and add PvE only skills to make it work, it does. They have also balanced gear which in fact is the hardest part.
The reason no one actually have discussed how you balance is more because it is a lot of text, and we are more concerned with why and if we think it should be balanced or not.
(And anyone quoting this, please remove the above quote).
Loke, my post was strictly for "themepark" design. I wasn't trying to tackle other gameplay designs. To be honest, last time I played WoW's class's for pvp was not even close to being balanced. They took away the classes particular advantages and let other classes have it. With wow's design, for pvp, there is honestly no point in having classes. Omit them and make it a sandbox game. Anyways back on to the topic, you have to the how to understand the why.
MMORPGs derived from PvE games, they were ment to be PvE. Whats the point? Its a joy when you advance, co-operate with your group and do something that you wouldnt have done alone. And then of course there is a loot Why not to play a co-op game? Because there is a big difference when you clear the dungeon and just finish the game and when you do it in a *world full of other people, a living world*.
Now I dont get the joy of PvP. What is it all about? How can it be joyful to kill, gank, take other guy's loot? Why is it cool to be elitist and ruin the game for other by ganking? Whats the joy to kill fellow players on the arenas? Is is that it makes you feel better than others? But why dont you study hard and become better then others IRL? That would be way more rewarding.... This I dont get.
It's almost as if you are implying that games shouldn't have competition, which is odd considering the majority of games have some form of competition. Could we say video games evolved from board games which evolved from sports? How many board games and sports can you name where the ultimate goal is not to beat another player/team? When did we first start seeing games that had little or no competition? The only games I can really think of is the Zelda and the Final Fantasy rpgs (I know there are plenty more, but I doubt it's anywhere near the majority)...The most earliest games all had competition in the form of score boards. It wasn't really until consoles that we saw RP video games that really had no competition against other real people.
But now with modern MMOs, even ones almost geared completely towards PVE, you still find competition even in PVE with like of out dpsing, healing, etc other players.
As regards to PVP, I wouldn't say it's about making "you feel better than others," as you put it. Some people just enjoy fighting REAL players rather than scripted AI. It's just too monotonous for some people. Not to say that PVP can't be monotonous, we've all experienced poorly designed PVP...And for that last sentence, just LOL. Come the fuck on, you're playing a video game period, doersn't matter how you platy it's still a video game lol.
Wow, good post OP and a feeling I share. There can't be majorly OP'd classes, so some form of a relative balance needs to be maintained, but overall, I have NO PROBLEM with one class being better than others, as long as they all have a roll.
PvP tends to balance itself out anyway as players fill the rolls as needed.
PvP balance needs to be thought of in terms of chess, not checkers.
First of doesn't all games even have the holy triad or classes. And removing the holy triad makes balancing easier. Some games have no magic at all. Your method works fine for games like Wow but not all games are like that.
Secondly is it possible to balance a game both in PvE and PvP, Guildwars is well balanced in both. Anet splits up PvE and PvP and add PvE only skills to make it work, it does. They have also balanced gear which in fact is the hardest part.
The reason no one actually have discussed how you balance is more because it is a lot of text, and we are more concerned with why and if we think it should be balanced or not.
(And anyone quoting this, please remove the above quote).
Loke, my post was strictly for "themepark" design. I wasn't trying to tackle other gameplay designs. To be honest, last time I played WoW's class's for pvp was not even close to being balanced. They took away the classes particular advantages and let other classes have it. With wow's design, for pvp, there is honestly no point in having classes. Omit them and make it a sandbox game. Anyways back on to the topic, you have to the how to understand the why.
1. Themepark doesn't mean Holy Trinity. You can have themeparks without trinities, and trinities outside themeparks.
2. The details of WOW's classes are pretty distinct. To say otherwise sounds like you feel like there should only be three classes in games ("DPS", "Tank", and "Healer") which ignores all of the myriad of detailed ways of how each class executed on those primary roles, which is what causes each playstyle to feel different.
Especially with Cata, they've really amped up the style to how each class performs its core role.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
1. Themepark doesn't mean Holy Trinity. You can have themeparks without trinities, and trinities outside themeparks.
2. The details of WOW's classes are pretty distinct. To say otherwise sounds like you feel like there should only be three classes in games ("DPS", "Tank", and "Healer") which ignores all of the myriad of detailed ways of how each class executed on those primary roles, which is what causes each playstyle to feel different.
Especially with Cata, they've really amped up the style to how each class performs its core role.
I disagree. I didn't feel anything at all was amped up about the playstyle of the classes. If anything, it was dumbed down, even more. Buttons light up when you should press them. Abilities flash on your screen when they're available. They've even switched some things around to make it less choice based and more priority based so that you can only do half as much as you could do before Cata. On my 3 characters, nothing has been 'amped up' (don't you people dare say "only 3? not enough to have a valid opinion, noob.") I cancelled my account shortly after realizing that i could run my finger across 1-0 on my keyboard and win every fight. In PvP, it was about who had the best gear, as usual... I don't know what you saw as amped up besides the instancing and phasing amount. Cata sucks.
"press this button, now press this button, now press this button. Great! you killed it! *pat on the head*. now, who wants some num nums!!?"
Back to the OP topic of balance: I think balance is good only when done on the technical side to make sure the game plays smooth and constant, however I don't think balance is good when they are constantly tweaking the classes to make everyone equally powerful. If we are supposed to be equally powerful, why do we have different classes?
Equal-power pvp is not for MMO's, it's for sports games and shooters and RTS. Games where you don't progress and tailor your character and it's abilities. Otherwise, we may as well just all get "Master Chief" on the login screen and just throw down in the game world.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
First of doesn't all games even have the holy triad or classes. And removing the holy triad makes balancing easier. Some games have no magic at all. Your method works fine for games like Wow but not all games are like that.
Secondly is it possible to balance a game both in PvE and PvP, Guildwars is well balanced in both. Anet splits up PvE and PvP and add PvE only skills to make it work, it does. They have also balanced gear which in fact is the hardest part.
The reason no one actually have discussed how you balance is more because it is a lot of text, and we are more concerned with why and if we think it should be balanced or not.
(And anyone quoting this, please remove the above quote).
Loke, my post was strictly for "themepark" design. I wasn't trying to tackle other gameplay designs. To be honest, last time I played WoW's class's for pvp was not even close to being balanced. They took away the classes particular advantages and let other classes have it. With wow's design, for pvp, there is honestly no point in having classes. Omit them and make it a sandbox game. Anyways back on to the topic, you have to the how to understand the why.
1. Themepark doesn't mean Holy Trinity. You can have themeparks without trinities, and trinities outside themeparks.
2. The details of WOW's classes are pretty distinct. To say otherwise sounds like you feel like there should only be three classes in games ("DPS", "Tank", and "Healer") which ignores all of the myriad of detailed ways of how each class executed on those primary roles, which is what causes each playstyle to feel different.
Especially with Cata, they've really amped up the style to how each class performs its core role.
Axe, don't put words in my mouth. I am always going on about diversity and lots of options. I just listed the trinity because its the core of the archetypes for class design. One of the reasons why I despise wow's class design is the lack of imagination and options. Do you want to see my class design and now different they are? I'd be willing to discuss those with you to prove you wrong on that point. I actually have 4 archetypes with 3 different classes for each archetype. In total I have 16 classes, one extra for pure ranged. I was merely speaking on the parameters of balancing in layers of each design.
I should of sayed class design that uses the holy trinity, which is essentially, well a good majority of titles.
[b]MMORPG, Roll Playing Games, are not about PvP... it's just the folks who like their epeen stroked want PvP... if I want to beat on somebody I will go outside and find a random person then use a basebal bat... then I know I can beat them... pressing 1,2,3 and using a mouse doesn't prove anything.[/b]
[/quote]
It's a game. Games mean competition. Competition means playing with and against real people. You think MMO's should be strictly roleplay?
What makes you think that a game is competition by all means ???
The purpose of a game is to have fun and not to win. You can loose a game and still have the best time in month, because you played with friends and had fun.
Most people have enough competition at work, so they don't really need it while playing.
While i like competition and therefore pvp, i don't have a problem to spend a day with some friends and have fun without any competition.
So YES, pvp is a big part of a game ( and also MMO ), but it's not a major part.
The major part in an MMORPG is the roleplaying. You "play" a "role". Playing your role CAN force you to do pvp. But you should have a reason for this. Yor motive for doing pvp shouldn't be to get a larger epeen.
That's myopic. I mean yes a game dosen't have to be competitive to enjoy, and yes some people can have a lot of fun role-playing, but if you are going to make a game and the focus or a part of the focus is to be competitive then that part needs to be balanced. Does the whole game need to be balanced perhaps not in the convential sense, but the part focused on competition certainly does. I think you did so unknowingly, but your argument was a red-herring you focused your retort on aspects of a game that might not need to be balanced, but that doesn't mean that none of the aspects of any games never have to be balanced.
Originally posted by eoughu And for that last sentence, just LOL. Come the fuck on, you're playing a video game period, doersn't matter how you platy it's still a video game lol.
This made me lol.
I really wish someone would answer my question on how PVP ruins PVE. Everyone is debating the origin of pvp and pve and saying games shouldnt have one or the other but no one is really debating anything its some continuous circle. So someone explain to me in their opinion how is PvP ruining a game for them? Why are you on a PvP server if its ruining it? I know for a fact nerfing and buffing isnt destroying your PvE life so what is it(and if you think it is please explain why)? Everyone complaining about getting ganked or attacked by someone comes my question again. Why the Hell are you on a PvP server? You surely knew what that ment when you signed up on one. I know not all games have PvE/PvP servers but those are clearly a minority these days.
Back to the OP (since hardly anyone is there anymore...) I agree there shouldnt be just everyone is equal because then its just dumb stale mates. I also agree people should work as a team such as healers tanks ranged and melee but that almost never happens sadly as grouping in many MMOs (specially PvP mmos) is dying off...I agree with someones earlier post about there being a Paper>Rock>Scissors>Paper kind of cycle and that would work wonderful if there was still only 3 classes available these days. Some day there will be a great breakthrough in PvP balance but if they just do away with trying then nothing will ever get done. Doesn't matter I guess people rage quit either way haha.
Why do people imply that competition is not fun? That's what games are about... Competition. Some more than others. But everyone still has fun competing... Unless you're a sore loser. Take some time to think before you click 'post message'.
2. The details of WOW's classes are pretty distinct. To say otherwise sounds like you feel like there should only be three classes in games ("DPS", "Tank", and "Healer") which ignores all of the myriad of detailed ways of how each class executed on those primary roles, which is what causes each playstyle to feel different.
Especially with Cata, they've really amped up the style to how each class performs its core role.
I disagree. I didn't feel anything at all was amped up about the playstyle of the classes. If anything, it was dumbed down, even more.
I wasn't commenting on the depth, only the style. My boomkin bounces between lunar and solar eclipse states, my rogue uses far more types of finishing moves than I have in previous expansions, and generally you just get to use a broader breadth of abilities than in the past.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Then it becomes the best game drug, making pathetic people feel better and feel that they own and having their confidence increased while they are little crappy kids who got no idea how to play, these are the worst people i have seen. noobs that come and talk to forums believing their are good players...
Plus i disagree because games are like drugs for the masses, giving them a fake psychological happiness and confidence boost that they dont deserve because they didnt do anything that deserves that kind of reward(Pressing a button isnt something big), yet they are so pathetic because they cant do anything skillful so they convience themselves that pressing 1 button is something difficult
Why do people imply that competition is not fun? That's what games are about... Competition. Some more than others. But everyone still has fun competing... Unless you're a sore loser. Take some time to think before you click 'post message'.
Actually, some people just plain don't like competing. Now me, I haven't even beaten the campaign in most games where I've played PvP for hundreds of hours. I'm incredibly competitive (If not necessarily great at some games, I at least love competing)
My wife on the other hand, doesn't like to play competitive games, she only likes co-op. Her grandmother plays Scrabble and =doesn't keep score=. That's crazy to me! It's hard for me to wrap my head around, the idea of playing Scrabble without keeping score, but she does it for fun, not to see who's winning.
Some people are just naturally not competitive, believe it or not. They may try to improve themselves, but they don't necessarily want to do it at the expense of others.
I completely, whole heartidly agree. I've been saying this for years.
I truly believe that "balancing" classes in a class based MMORPG is a myth... you can work like heck forever to try to attain it but something will always be unbalanced. Someone will always be unhappy and a class structure will always favor one load out or another.
Enough with the balancing...
Unfortunately I just don't think many development teams can afford to not have balance be a focus. If you make an MMO too team dependent you loose subscribers, if you loose subscriptions you can't afford to keep the game up and you're now out of a job. Players just don't react overtly well to forced grouping, which now means you have to make certain that every calls can stand on it's own, if every class can stand on it's own they have to be unique and balanced against each other.
I think it's a bit of the chicke / egg thing but whatever it is, I just don't think we'll ever see that much diversity in classes or roles in MMO's until someone with lots of funding makes a niche game.
The issue isn't really one of balance but of MMO's losing their way so-to-speak. The balance issues you refer to is just one of many factors that are killing grouping in modern MMOs. Mainly it's the solo friendly attitude that devs are taking these days that effects grouping on many levels. This includes everything from quest driven leveling to auction houses. All of these factors destroy interdependance between characters and make it so you don't ever have to interact with another character for anything. This affects the comunity as a whole and makes grouping an option instead of a necessity.
As for balance issues it only becomes an issue when a game tries to be two things at once. When a game tries to balance for both PvE and PvP one or the other usually comes up short. A game should stick to it's primary focus and balance for that alone. If it's primary focus is PvE it should be balanced for PvE... PvP games should be balanced for PvP. It's when a game tries to do both that problems arise.
Comments
Negative, as I said earlier in the post, I've never played DAoC because I had plenty of friends in EQ1 at the time and for me MMOs were about a positive, cooperative community not how many players I could lift my leg on.
Again, there's room for PvP-based MMOs but they need to be designed that way from the ground up, not bogged down with PvE gameplay, however on the other side of the coin PvE games only suffer from PvP.
if there is no balance.... lets say class balance... WTF rogues a OP!!!!! they 1 hit anybody!!!!! everyone will play rogue then.,.. whats the purpose of having all other classes? maybe the devs remove all the other classes and make the mmorpg with only rogues available because they are so op... how cool is that? terrible.......
at least for pvp classes should be balanced, about other stuff i dont care balancing
For LotRO yes there is!
The recent rebalances and improvement's.
And FFXIV doesn't count toward anything. That game has bigger issues.
I fully agree with Axehilt and I played for 13 months.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Excellent post. Wish I'd read it before posting, it sums up what I was trying to say much better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Good balance is good for everyone.
Devs haven't wasted any manhours designing and implementing additional classes/skills when they all are used somewhat equally
Players can enjoy a rich variety of classes, builds and skills because they are equally viable. They each have their strengths and weaknesses but none is clearly superior. Good balance creates options.
Balancing is hard and perfect balance is impossible to achieve. Giving up on balance is like giving up on science because every answer to one question creates three more questions. Devs should strive for perfect balance even if they can't reach it.
NOTE: I am talking about some form of rock, paper, scissors type of balance, not 1v1 balance.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
At first I disagreed. Generally it's more fair and more fun for me when everyone is on an equal playign field. But after thinking about it, the most fun I've had in MMORPGs is overcoming adversity and imbalance to win the day.
I also agree with the sentiment that games that do offer both PvE and PvP need to balance them separately, even if it means figuratively making two separate games.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
First and foremost I don't think anyone on this thread understands what balancing means in game design.
It seems as if the popular gameplay is balancing PVP in mmos. Well you CAN balance PVP and PVE. Maybe not in the same game but it can be done.
Gameplay SHOULD be balanced because it allows fluidity of consistent gameplay where that player has an ample opportunity to "win" agianst AI or another player. BALANCING does not mean every class or every ability is exactly alike. I will show you all how to properly balance PVE and PVE from a simple design perspective.
PVP Balancing
Since the majority of complaints are about class balance or no class balance for PVP, I'll stick to the class design rather than a sandbox design for now.
For Pvp design, you do not balance every class like ever class. Wow is a perfect example of bad balancing for pvp because every class has a similar ability in which another has. The objective is if there are other classes, each class' archetype will balanced in that spectrum. This does not mean every class can be on par with dps for other non dps archetypes. There are several things you have to balance.
1. Melee vs Caster --- This will be balanced by testing and through the type of combat mechanics used.
2. Archetypes - Tanks, Dps, Healers --- Archetypes should be balanced based on that archetype only. Here is what I mean from a pvp persepective.
Tanks = Moderate damage, and high mitigation against melee and moderate mitigation against casters
Dps Melee = High damage, and low to moderate mitigation against melee and moderate to low against casters
Caster Dps = High damage, and low mitigation against all melee and moderate to high mitigation against casters
Healers = Low damage, and high mitigation against all (through heals)
3. Classes --- This section has to complement the above archetype section. Class balance also means they stay true to that class. For an example, if a class focuses on snaring, or rooting and dots, should that class receive direct damage dps output as well? Absolutely not. Common class abilities will bleed over to other classes, however unique class abilities with unique class mechanics should NOT bleed over.
4. Class Abilities --- This section also has to complement the above class section. To balance out abilities they must be balanced within the type of ability and also with the opposite of what they will be dealing. For an example, determental magic vs a heal. The heal should be somewhat significant higher than a damage modifer. Cooldowns can somewhat balance abilities. But the best way to balance abilities, especially the over powering ones, is through PENALTY. So for an example....
Fireball does 1000 damage and has a 50% chance to do an extra 2000 damage on impact. So that is a pretty powering spell. You'd have to figure out the HP of characters with that level of the charatcer that obtains that ability. Let's say a characters HP is around 5000. Technically, if a player 'spams' that spell 5 times its going to kill the other player. Spaming of abilities and access to all abilities at once also dampens balance.
Here are some reasonable penalties to balance the fireball spell. A 3 minute cooldown of the ability it self or a cooldown of that type of magics school, a 25% chance to have kickback damage when casted because of the lack of stability of the powerful spell to caster. Possibly have to have a regeant of some kind to cast.
Anyways, I am going to be late for work, sorry of this felt rushed, I could go into more detail later. Please read this to get the essential understanding of what balance is.
Agree 100% with all of that except the "additional classes/skills" bit.
Adding playstyles is something players want, and if you're badass at balancing the system then it's a win for both players and devs. League of Legends is a great example of this imo, and I feel GW1 was quite similar to LoL in how it implemented new playstyles (albeit at a MMORPG scale; classes are more complicated in MMORPGs so they are implemented far slower than new LoL champions.)
(Of course if a dev has failed to prove they can quickly and expertly balance classes, then adding new playstyles is out of the question.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
First of doesn't all games even have the holy triad or classes. And removing the holy triad makes balancing easier. Some games have no magic at all. Your method works fine for games like Wow but not all games are like that.
Secondly is it possible to balance a game both in PvE and PvP, Guildwars is well balanced in both. Anet splits up PvE and PvP and add PvE only skills to make it work, it does. They have also balanced gear which in fact is the hardest part.
The reason no one actually have discussed how you balance is more because it is a lot of text, and we are more concerned with why and if we think it should be balanced or not.
(And anyone quoting this, please remove the above quote).
Loke, my post was strictly for "themepark" design. I wasn't trying to tackle other gameplay designs. To be honest, last time I played WoW's class's for pvp was not even close to being balanced. They took away the classes particular advantages and let other classes have it. With wow's design, for pvp, there is honestly no point in having classes. Omit them and make it a sandbox game. Anyways back on to the topic, you have to the how to understand the why.
Wow, good post OP and a feeling I share. There can't be majorly OP'd classes, so some form of a relative balance needs to be maintained, but overall, I have NO PROBLEM with one class being better than others, as long as they all have a roll.
PvP tends to balance itself out anyway as players fill the rolls as needed.
PvP balance needs to be thought of in terms of chess, not checkers.
1. Themepark doesn't mean Holy Trinity. You can have themeparks without trinities, and trinities outside themeparks.
2. The details of WOW's classes are pretty distinct. To say otherwise sounds like you feel like there should only be three classes in games ("DPS", "Tank", and "Healer") which ignores all of the myriad of detailed ways of how each class executed on those primary roles, which is what causes each playstyle to feel different.
Especially with Cata, they've really amped up the style to how each class performs its core role.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I disagree. I didn't feel anything at all was amped up about the playstyle of the classes. If anything, it was dumbed down, even more. Buttons light up when you should press them. Abilities flash on your screen when they're available. They've even switched some things around to make it less choice based and more priority based so that you can only do half as much as you could do before Cata. On my 3 characters, nothing has been 'amped up' (don't you people dare say "only 3? not enough to have a valid opinion, noob.") I cancelled my account shortly after realizing that i could run my finger across 1-0 on my keyboard and win every fight. In PvP, it was about who had the best gear, as usual... I don't know what you saw as amped up besides the instancing and phasing amount. Cata sucks.
"press this button, now press this button, now press this button. Great! you killed it! *pat on the head*. now, who wants some num nums!!?"
Back to the OP topic of balance: I think balance is good only when done on the technical side to make sure the game plays smooth and constant, however I don't think balance is good when they are constantly tweaking the classes to make everyone equally powerful. If we are supposed to be equally powerful, why do we have different classes?
Equal-power pvp is not for MMO's, it's for sports games and shooters and RTS. Games where you don't progress and tailor your character and it's abilities. Otherwise, we may as well just all get "Master Chief" on the login screen and just throw down in the game world.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Axe, don't put words in my mouth. I am always going on about diversity and lots of options. I just listed the trinity because its the core of the archetypes for class design. One of the reasons why I despise wow's class design is the lack of imagination and options. Do you want to see my class design and now different they are? I'd be willing to discuss those with you to prove you wrong on that point. I actually have 4 archetypes with 3 different classes for each archetype. In total I have 16 classes, one extra for pure ranged. I was merely speaking on the parameters of balancing in layers of each design.
I should of sayed class design that uses the holy trinity, which is essentially, well a good majority of titles.
What makes you think that a game is competition by all means ???
The purpose of a game is to have fun and not to win. You can loose a game and still have the best time in month, because you played with friends and had fun.
Most people have enough competition at work, so they don't really need it while playing.
While i like competition and therefore pvp, i don't have a problem to spend a day with some friends and have fun without any competition.
So YES, pvp is a big part of a game ( and also MMO ), but it's not a major part.
The major part in an MMORPG is the roleplaying. You "play" a "role". Playing your role CAN force you to do pvp. But you should have a reason for this. Yor motive for doing pvp shouldn't be to get a larger epeen.
That's myopic. I mean yes a game dosen't have to be competitive to enjoy, and yes some people can have a lot of fun role-playing, but if you are going to make a game and the focus or a part of the focus is to be competitive then that part needs to be balanced. Does the whole game need to be balanced perhaps not in the convential sense, but the part focused on competition certainly does. I think you did so unknowingly, but your argument was a red-herring you focused your retort on aspects of a game that might not need to be balanced, but that doesn't mean that none of the aspects of any games never have to be balanced.
This made me lol.
I really wish someone would answer my question on how PVP ruins PVE. Everyone is debating the origin of pvp and pve and saying games shouldnt have one or the other but no one is really debating anything its some continuous circle.
So someone explain to me in their opinion how is PvP ruining a game for them?
Why are you on a PvP server if its ruining it? I know for a fact nerfing and buffing isnt destroying your PvE life so what is it(and if you think it is please explain why)? Everyone complaining about getting ganked or attacked by someone comes my question again. Why the Hell are you on a PvP server? You surely knew what that ment when you signed up on one. I know not all games have PvE/PvP servers but those are clearly a minority these days.
Back to the OP (since hardly anyone is there anymore...) I agree there shouldnt be just everyone is equal because then its just dumb stale mates. I also agree people should work as a team such as healers tanks ranged and melee but that almost never happens sadly as grouping in many MMOs (specially PvP mmos) is dying off...I agree with someones earlier post about there being a Paper>Rock>Scissors>Paper kind of cycle and that would work wonderful if there was still only 3 classes available these days. Some day there will be a great breakthrough in PvP balance but if they just do away with trying then nothing will ever get done. Doesn't matter I guess people rage quit either way haha.
Why do people imply that competition is not fun? That's what games are about... Competition. Some more than others. But everyone still has fun competing... Unless you're a sore loser. Take some time to think before you click 'post message'.
I wasn't commenting on the depth, only the style. My boomkin bounces between lunar and solar eclipse states, my rogue uses far more types of finishing moves than I have in previous expansions, and generally you just get to use a broader breadth of abilities than in the past.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Then it becomes the best game drug, making pathetic people feel better and feel that they own and having their confidence increased while they are little crappy kids who got no idea how to play, these are the worst people i have seen. noobs that come and talk to forums believing their are good players...
Plus i disagree because games are like drugs for the masses, giving them a fake psychological happiness and confidence boost that they dont deserve because they didnt do anything that deserves that kind of reward(Pressing a button isnt something big), yet they are so pathetic because they cant do anything skillful so they convience themselves that pressing 1 button is something difficult
Actually, some people just plain don't like competing. Now me, I haven't even beaten the campaign in most games where I've played PvP for hundreds of hours. I'm incredibly competitive (If not necessarily great at some games, I at least love competing)
My wife on the other hand, doesn't like to play competitive games, she only likes co-op. Her grandmother plays Scrabble and =doesn't keep score=. That's crazy to me! It's hard for me to wrap my head around, the idea of playing Scrabble without keeping score, but she does it for fun, not to see who's winning.
Some people are just naturally not competitive, believe it or not. They may try to improve themselves, but they don't necessarily want to do it at the expense of others.
I completely, whole heartidly agree. I've been saying this for years.
I truly believe that "balancing" classes in a class based MMORPG is a myth... you can work like heck forever to try to attain it but something will always be unbalanced. Someone will always be unhappy and a class structure will always favor one load out or another.
Enough with the balancing...
Unfortunately I just don't think many development teams can afford to not have balance be a focus. If you make an MMO too team dependent you loose subscribers, if you loose subscriptions you can't afford to keep the game up and you're now out of a job. Players just don't react overtly well to forced grouping, which now means you have to make certain that every calls can stand on it's own, if every class can stand on it's own they have to be unique and balanced against each other.
I think it's a bit of the chicke / egg thing but whatever it is, I just don't think we'll ever see that much diversity in classes or roles in MMO's until someone with lots of funding makes a niche game.
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The issue isn't really one of balance but of MMO's losing their way so-to-speak. The balance issues you refer to is just one of many factors that are killing grouping in modern MMOs. Mainly it's the solo friendly attitude that devs are taking these days that effects grouping on many levels. This includes everything from quest driven leveling to auction houses. All of these factors destroy interdependance between characters and make it so you don't ever have to interact with another character for anything. This affects the comunity as a whole and makes grouping an option instead of a necessity.
As for balance issues it only becomes an issue when a game tries to be two things at once. When a game tries to balance for both PvE and PvP one or the other usually comes up short. A game should stick to it's primary focus and balance for that alone. If it's primary focus is PvE it should be balanced for PvE... PvP games should be balanced for PvP. It's when a game tries to do both that problems arise.
Bren
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