Sandbox is a niche market, and even among players who enjoy them we all disagree what features they should incorporate.
Some argue you must have FFA PVP with full loot, others would disagree totally.
I'd say even the best sandbox MMORPG would be doing well to draw in 500K sustained subs.... which is fine because outside of WOW and maybe a few others, no themepark game can manage to acheive this number either.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
sandbox is a really small, but vocally loud, niche. no one cares for them. 50% lol ...
Are you sure? I mean let's talk about numbers..
Oblivion fans: Over 2 millions worldwide
Mount&Blade:Over 1 million worldwide
Aoc+DF online+Ultima Online+Daoc+Shadowbane: Over 2 millions worldwide
Gee ..that's around 5 millions players that would happily join a sandbox mmorpg with a well polished mmorpg that uses a combat system similar to Oblivion and M&B and have adventures in a vast sandbox non themepark world.
Around 12 millions are wow but within 12 millions are players that quit wow often,players that freezed acounts ,chinese farmers,players that have over one account ,and around 1 million of wow dissapointed /bored players thatare just playing wow simply cause no other uality mmorpg is out there,etc etc...
That's around 40-50% of wow sub number 5-6 millions possible clients over the 12 milllion wow subs isn't it ?
sandbox is a really small, but vocally loud, niche. no one cares for them. 50% lol ...
Small relative to WoW, yes. But everything is small compared to WoW.
However, the largest sandbox MMORPG, Eve, has a subscriber base of roughly 350.000 and that is a FFA PvP game.
So if a company would release a good, solid sandbox, which was not FFA PvP but rather controlled PvP, which seems more popular, I bet it would get atleast a subscriber base of 500.000. And that would be among the highest out there, not counting WoW.
But 50%, meaning it would get the 10 million of WoW? Highly unlikely...
Eve may technically be an FFA PvP game, but given the high-sec, low-sec, null-sec system it's pretty controlled for those who don't want to engage in PvP.
You know what all these abandoned sandboxes tell to investors? Stay clear.
If it wasn't for CCP and EVE sandboxes would be long dead and buried. Pray that World of Darkness is a sandbox, because don't expect any other developer to delve into the no man land of current sandbox population.
Aoc+DF online+Ultima Online+Daoc+Shadowbane: Over 2 millions worldwide
I'm curious where your numbers are that prove that nobody who plays Oblivion plays Mount & Blade, and none of those people playing any of the OTHER sandbox MMOs.
That's like saying that if there's 3 people in the room and two people like cheese, and two people like tomatoes, and two people like cookies, you have six people.
Let's be really honest here though. If there was some sort of evidence that a company could walk in and snag up half the WoW numbers just by doing a polished sandbox, people would be working a lot more on that.
There is no sense of accomplishment that comes with themepark, instant rewards and a path already laid out for you to follow, and "how" your charactor should be and do is already defined. What input do you have at all, ask yourself do you even need to be there to make a difference!
People need there eyes opening to sense of achievement you get from sandbox, you truly have an effect and impact and have "choice".
For example, I could build a house, eventually a village, it will be mine, it will be unique. Where is the uniqueness in themepark. You will get what you are given, the same as everyone else!
I guess 99% of themepark players have never tried a sandbox, or if they have for the first 2 minutes and get lost, not being told exactly what to do, Or not being level 50 in 10 mins!
Is this the way people are?, you should be worried that people drift more towards a pre-set path, rather that defining there own. Themepark games are stifling evolution, and you should be very concerned about that...
Core i5 13600KF, BeQuiet Pure Loop FX 360, 32gb DDR5-6000 XPG, WD SN850 NVMe ,PNY 3090 XLR8, Asus Prime Z790-A, Lian-Li O11 PCMR case (limited ed 1045/2000), 32" LG Ultragear 4k Monitor, Logitech G560 LightSync Sound, Razer Deathadder V2 and Razer Blackwidow V3 Keyboard
lets say - on a pure hypthetical basis - ccp would implement something like 'tabula rasa' into eve online (and i'm not talking about the dust 541 tactic shooter). wouldn't this solve any of our wishes for a overall complete sandbox title?
There is black. And there is white. And there are shades of grey in between.
Just because something is categorised as a themepark, doesn't mean it is all easy and holding hands. And even hand holding has different shades, even in the same game. Take WoW for example. There is cataclysm monorail one way questing, there is TBC variety questing and there is vanilla more even more open questing.
The first problem than sandboxes need to overcome is that there is usually more kitty poopoo than sand inside the box.
The first problem than sandboxes need to overcome is that there is usually more kitty poopoo than sand inside the box.
Now thinking in sandbox mode, i could use that as fertilizer for growing crops. I could actually clean it up, or i could nothing. As its a sandbox I have that choice....
Core i5 13600KF, BeQuiet Pure Loop FX 360, 32gb DDR5-6000 XPG, WD SN850 NVMe ,PNY 3090 XLR8, Asus Prime Z790-A, Lian-Li O11 PCMR case (limited ed 1045/2000), 32" LG Ultragear 4k Monitor, Logitech G560 LightSync Sound, Razer Deathadder V2 and Razer Blackwidow V3 Keyboard
sandbox is a really small, but vocally loud, niche. no one cares for them. 50% lol ...
Are you sure? I mean let's talk about numbers..
Oblivion fans: Over 2 millions worldwide
Mount&Blade:Over 1 million worldwide
Aoc+DF online+Ultima Online+Daoc+Shadowbane: Over 2 millions worldwide
Gee ..that's around 5 millions players that would happily join a sandbox mmorpg with a well polished mmorpg that uses a combat system similar to Oblivion and M&B and have adventures in a vast sandbox non themepark world.
Around 12 millions are wow but within 12 millions are players that quit wow often,players that freezed acounts ,chinese farmers,players that have over one account ,and around 1 million of wow dissapointed /bored players thatare just playing wow simply cause no other uality mmorpg is out there,etc etc...
That's around 40-50% of wow sub number 5-6 millions possible clients over the 12 milllion wow subs isn't it ?
In order for your math to work at all:
- each of those players had to have played only one of those games with no overlap
- Those single-player CRPG people all want an environment with a bunch of other people in their game with them.
- None of them are currently enjoying and staying with WOW
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Let's be really honest here though. If there was some sort of evidence that a company could walk in and snag up half the WoW numbers just by doing a polished sandbox, people would be working a lot more on that.
Companies aren't allergic to money, you know.
Perfect. I totally agree, if market studies showed any trend for a well developed sandbox might succeed, we'd have 1/2 a dozen devs's rushing to build one.
They're not seeing a unified market there that is equivalent to the causal friendly one dominated by WOW and most other theme park games hence they won't pursue it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Mass of people do not like sandbox games, sorry to say. There are plenty of sandbox games out there that haven't been even remotely successful compared to WoW terms.
Let's be really honest here though. If there was some sort of evidence that a company could walk in and snag up half the WoW numbers just by doing a polished sandbox, people would be working a lot more on that.
Companies aren't allergic to money, you know.
Perfect. I totally agree, if market studies showed any trend for a well developed sandbox might succeed, we'd have 1/2 a dozen devs's rushing to build one.
They're not seeing a unified market there that is equivalent to the causal friendly one dominated by WOW and most other theme park games hence they won't pursue it.
When they study the market they will recognize that WoW have 12 million players. They will learn from that and try to create something that is safe. Its still possible that a different type of MMO can be popular enough. But it would be a gamble. And most investors and big companies prefer not to gamble if they can spend money on something safe instead.
It would take a very creative development team. It would have to be something that is different. The current and pass designs just dont cut the mustard, they dont provide enough entertainment for the majority of people ie. they get boring to quickly.
There is an evolution with just about everything. Something that was fun 10 years ago is boring today. To make a Sandbox game that would take 50% of the market, you would need an absolute genius in game design and it would have to be something that has'nt been done before.
A sandbox game with open PVP can be controlled for htose who dont like pvp. Assume real life, i can walk down the street and mug somone, the consequences of my actions are i get some loot, however i also get put on the hate list of the local law enforcement,
In a game world if you choose to go against another player (note i didnt say attack, most assume an mmorpg to leave the player in control of a character or vehicle) there should be consequences and rewards at the same time. Say in Faction v Faction the player will become hated by one and gain factio nwith hte other, or an unprovoked attack can leave the attacker unable to return to that area etc etc
There are methods of controlling PVP but still give the player the freedom of choice. mentioning WOW it is the worst example of PVP (long term WOW player here). The loser suffers no losses, except a drop in the amount of honor/conquest etc gained in that period.
Eve the choice is do i go low sec? i can reap more rewards but it can all go to crap if another player sniffs me out (BTDT after spending hours equipping a ship) but i can stil play 95% of that game in care bear mode if i wish.
I love sandbox, the first computer game i really spent time playing was Elite, totally sandbox, and to be honest there was very little rewards compared to today's standards, I like Eve due to my upbringing in Elite.
Fallen earth is a nice change, played it for a trial, definately enjoyable but not polished enough for me to subscribe unfortunately.
one that hasnt been mentioned... and itsa doozy..... FFXIV!! however its under serious maintanence to fix lots of shortfalls that game is totally sandbox bar a few main story missions. Crafting is pretty in depth as is hte class system. However there is very little to do and lots of things to fix. The snippets of info about plans (even before the hardcore fixing) included player built housing, boats and companies. Yes i have played FFXIV since Beta, i havent been to active for a month or so as i was waiting for the revamp to come in. Its only anti sandbox area is totally 0 pvp at the moment.
Originally posted by Hurvart Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Meowhead
Let's be really honest here though. If there was some sort of evidence that a company could walk in and snag up half the WoW numbers just by doing a polished sandbox, people would be working a lot more on that. Companies aren't allergic to money, you know. Perfect. I totally agree, if market studies showed any trend for a well developed sandbox might succeed, we'd have 1/2 a dozen devs's rushing to build one. They're not seeing a unified market there that is equivalent to the causal friendly one dominated by WOW and most other theme park games hence they won't pursue it. When they study the market they will recognize that WoW have 12 million players. They will learn from that and try to create something that is safe. Its still possible that a different type of MMO can be popular enough. But it would be a gamble. And most investors and big companies prefer not to gamble if they can spend money on something safe instead.
If they do a careful study of WoW's market, they'll realize that most of WoW's population isn't actually gamers. Not in the sense that most people here think of gamers. A sizable chunk of WoW's population doesn't play any other games at all. A sandbox isn't likely to appeal to the majority of WoW's population, unless it offers a lot of stuff that WoW currently offers.
It would need strong, story based PvE content with an understandable end game activity. The standard guild based territory ownership is not a smooth transition from end game raiding or end game battlegrounds/arenas for WoW players. I think you could build a game with a lot of sandbox elements that could attract a lot of WoW players. It may not even be recognizable as a sandox to the people who currently play or want sandbox games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Aoc+DF online+Ultima Online+Daoc+Shadowbane: Over 2 millions worldwide
I'm curious where your numbers are that prove that nobody who plays Oblivion plays Mount & Blade, and none of those people playing any of the OTHER sandbox MMOs.
That's like saying that if there's 3 people in the room and two people like cheese, and two people like tomatoes, and two people like cookies, you have six people.
Let's be really honest here though. If there was some sort of evidence that a company could walk in and snag up half the WoW numbers just by doing a polished sandbox, people would be working a lot more on that.
Companies aren't allergic to money, you know.
This. There are no major studios doing FFA PvP sandboxes because there is no demand.
Plus:
LOL at AoC being a sandbox.
Did DF ever have more than 20k subs? How about FE? MO probably never had as many as either.
AFAIK UO and DAoC both capped in the neighborhood of 250k, and you can bet there was major crossover in those playerbases. Players fled the regular UO servers for Trammel and DAoC only had 2 of their 21 servers as FFA PvP at its' peak.
Considering how fast SB folded, I wouldn't count that as a successful sandbox.
Too many indie devs are developing buggy, half-finsihed sandbox games and if a AAA sandbox game was to be released that has casual appeal (not easy, but easy to understand) it would be a pretty big success. Now only if a
studio actually went out and made it...
And you statement is based on nothing but your own guesses.
The successful sandboxes are those where other players can't come in and screw things up (Oblivion, Fallout, Minecraft.)
So I think Teala's on the right track that the way to make a successful sandbox is to also ensure it's a strong themepark.
Because historically people buy simulations (sandboxes) much less than games (themeparks). Most people couldn't care less whether a game simulates something with exacting detail -- as long as it consistently offers them interesting decisions.
Either that, or let players shape their own part of the world but not be able to ruin others' parts (at which point many sandboxophiles would say the game is no longer a sandbox.) Which I suppose is closer to how H&H works now that I think about it (you establish borders and it's actually a huge amount of work (and risk) to be capable of ruining others' borders; if they'd removed that capability entirely, so much the better.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If its true that WOW dominates the themepark genre, we still dont have a representant for the sandbox genre.
Im calling them "subgenres", because most people refuse the notion that a true MMORPG is sandbox and sandbox only...
Anyway, the point is...
CURRENTLY THERE IS AN EMPTY SPOT FOR THE SANDBOX GENRE.
The company that releases an AAA polished sandbox, with high production value will come and dominate like WOW did its "themepark" genre.
Sorry, didn't read every post, so this may have been stated ad nauseam already.
But first you have to define "sandbox".
It could be Second Life, or Star Wars Galaxies where you grind out 10 professions to get a light saber, or soemthing in between.
What do you mean by "AAA Sandbox"?
Maybe some day a developer will design a popular "sandbox" but I don't think we even know what that will look like until it's done.
Maybe an AAA version of Mine Craft?
I really think that would make for an inctredible hit.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Sandbox is a niche market, and even among players who enjoy them we all disagree what features they should incorporate.
Some argue you must have FFA PVP with full loot, others would disagree totally.
I'd say even the best sandbox MMORPG would be doing well to draw in 500K sustained subs.... which is fine because outside of WOW and maybe a few others, no themepark game can manage to acheive this number either.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Are you sure? I mean let's talk about numbers..
Oblivion fans: Over 2 millions worldwide
Mount&Blade:Over 1 million worldwide
Aoc+DF online+Ultima Online+Daoc+Shadowbane: Over 2 millions worldwide
Gee ..that's around 5 millions players that would happily join a sandbox mmorpg with a well polished mmorpg that uses a combat system similar to Oblivion and M&B and have adventures in a vast sandbox non themepark world.
Around 12 millions are wow but within 12 millions are players that quit wow often,players that freezed acounts ,chinese farmers,players that have over one account ,and around 1 million of wow dissapointed /bored players thatare just playing wow simply cause no other uality mmorpg is out there,etc etc...
That's around 40-50% of wow sub number 5-6 millions possible clients over the 12 milllion wow subs isn't it ?
Eve may technically be an FFA PvP game, but given the high-sec, low-sec, null-sec system it's pretty controlled for those who don't want to engage in PvP.
Always read the small print.
You know what all these abandoned sandboxes tell to investors? Stay clear.
If it wasn't for CCP and EVE sandboxes would be long dead and buried. Pray that World of Darkness is a sandbox, because don't expect any other developer to delve into the no man land of current sandbox population.
And no, sandbox does not equal free for all loot.
50% of the market ? However wrote that has delusions.
I'm curious where your numbers are that prove that nobody who plays Oblivion plays Mount & Blade, and none of those people playing any of the OTHER sandbox MMOs.
That's like saying that if there's 3 people in the room and two people like cheese, and two people like tomatoes, and two people like cookies, you have six people.
Let's be really honest here though. If there was some sort of evidence that a company could walk in and snag up half the WoW numbers just by doing a polished sandbox, people would be working a lot more on that.
Companies aren't allergic to money, you know.
There is no sense of accomplishment that comes with themepark, instant rewards and a path already laid out for you to follow, and "how" your charactor should be and do is already defined. What input do you have at all, ask yourself do you even need to be there to make a difference!
People need there eyes opening to sense of achievement you get from sandbox, you truly have an effect and impact and have "choice".
For example, I could build a house, eventually a village, it will be mine, it will be unique. Where is the uniqueness in themepark. You will get what you are given, the same as everyone else!
I guess 99% of themepark players have never tried a sandbox, or if they have for the first 2 minutes and get lost, not being told exactly what to do, Or not being level 50 in 10 mins!
Is this the way people are?, you should be worried that people drift more towards a pre-set path, rather that defining there own. Themepark games are stifling evolution, and you should be very concerned about that...
Core i5 13600KF, BeQuiet Pure Loop FX 360, 32gb DDR5-6000 XPG, WD SN850 NVMe ,PNY 3090 XLR8, Asus Prime Z790-A, Lian-Li O11 PCMR case (limited ed 1045/2000), 32" LG Ultragear 4k Monitor, Logitech G560 LightSync Sound, Razer Deathadder V2 and Razer Blackwidow V3 Keyboard
lets say - on a pure hypthetical basis - ccp would implement something like 'tabula rasa' into eve online (and i'm not talking about the dust 541 tactic shooter). wouldn't this solve any of our wishes for a overall complete sandbox title?
There is black. And there is white. And there are shades of grey in between.
Just because something is categorised as a themepark, doesn't mean it is all easy and holding hands. And even hand holding has different shades, even in the same game. Take WoW for example. There is cataclysm monorail one way questing, there is TBC variety questing and there is vanilla more even more open questing.
The first problem than sandboxes need to overcome is that there is usually more kitty poopoo than sand inside the box.
Now thinking in sandbox mode, i could use that as fertilizer for growing crops. I could actually clean it up, or i could nothing. As its a sandbox I have that choice....
Core i5 13600KF, BeQuiet Pure Loop FX 360, 32gb DDR5-6000 XPG, WD SN850 NVMe ,PNY 3090 XLR8, Asus Prime Z790-A, Lian-Li O11 PCMR case (limited ed 1045/2000), 32" LG Ultragear 4k Monitor, Logitech G560 LightSync Sound, Razer Deathadder V2 and Razer Blackwidow V3 Keyboard
I was referring to bugs and other issues that sandbox advocates have to deal with a lot more than themepark advocates.
In order for your math to work at all:
- each of those players had to have played only one of those games with no overlap
- Those single-player CRPG people all want an environment with a bunch of other people in their game with them.
- None of them are currently enjoying and staying with WOW
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Perfect. I totally agree, if market studies showed any trend for a well developed sandbox might succeed, we'd have 1/2 a dozen devs's rushing to build one.
They're not seeing a unified market there that is equivalent to the causal friendly one dominated by WOW and most other theme park games hence they won't pursue it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Mass of people do not like sandbox games, sorry to say. There are plenty of sandbox games out there that haven't been even remotely successful compared to WoW terms.
When they study the market they will recognize that WoW have 12 million players. They will learn from that and try to create something that is safe. Its still possible that a different type of MMO can be popular enough. But it would be a gamble. And most investors and big companies prefer not to gamble if they can spend money on something safe instead.
It would take a very creative development team. It would have to be something that is different. The current and pass designs just dont cut the mustard, they dont provide enough entertainment for the majority of people ie. they get boring to quickly.
There is an evolution with just about everything. Something that was fun 10 years ago is boring today. To make a Sandbox game that would take 50% of the market, you would need an absolute genius in game design and it would have to be something that has'nt been done before.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
A sandbox game with open PVP can be controlled for htose who dont like pvp. Assume real life, i can walk down the street and mug somone, the consequences of my actions are i get some loot, however i also get put on the hate list of the local law enforcement,
In a game world if you choose to go against another player (note i didnt say attack, most assume an mmorpg to leave the player in control of a character or vehicle) there should be consequences and rewards at the same time. Say in Faction v Faction the player will become hated by one and gain factio nwith hte other, or an unprovoked attack can leave the attacker unable to return to that area etc etc
There are methods of controlling PVP but still give the player the freedom of choice. mentioning WOW it is the worst example of PVP (long term WOW player here). The loser suffers no losses, except a drop in the amount of honor/conquest etc gained in that period.
Eve the choice is do i go low sec? i can reap more rewards but it can all go to crap if another player sniffs me out (BTDT after spending hours equipping a ship) but i can stil play 95% of that game in care bear mode if i wish.
I love sandbox, the first computer game i really spent time playing was Elite, totally sandbox, and to be honest there was very little rewards compared to today's standards, I like Eve due to my upbringing in Elite.
Fallen earth is a nice change, played it for a trial, definately enjoyable but not polished enough for me to subscribe unfortunately.
one that hasnt been mentioned... and itsa doozy..... FFXIV!! however its under serious maintanence to fix lots of shortfalls that game is totally sandbox bar a few main story missions. Crafting is pretty in depth as is hte class system. However there is very little to do and lots of things to fix. The snippets of info about plans (even before the hardcore fixing) included player built housing, boats and companies. Yes i have played FFXIV since Beta, i havent been to active for a month or so as i was waiting for the revamp to come in. Its only anti sandbox area is totally 0 pvp at the moment.
50% of the sandbox market maybe!
And how small is that segment again?
Let's be really honest here though. If there was some sort of evidence that a company could walk in and snag up half the WoW numbers just by doing a polished sandbox, people would be working a lot more on that.
Companies aren't allergic to money, you know.
Perfect. I totally agree, if market studies showed any trend for a well developed sandbox might succeed, we'd have 1/2 a dozen devs's rushing to build one.
They're not seeing a unified market there that is equivalent to the causal friendly one dominated by WOW and most other theme park games hence they won't pursue it.
When they study the market they will recognize that WoW have 12 million players. They will learn from that and try to create something that is safe. Its still possible that a different type of MMO can be popular enough. But it would be a gamble. And most investors and big companies prefer not to gamble if they can spend money on something safe instead.
If they do a careful study of WoW's market, they'll realize that most of WoW's population isn't actually gamers. Not in the sense that most people here think of gamers. A sizable chunk of WoW's population doesn't play any other games at all. A sandbox isn't likely to appeal to the majority of WoW's population, unless it offers a lot of stuff that WoW currently offers.
It would need strong, story based PvE content with an understandable end game activity. The standard guild based territory ownership is not a smooth transition from end game raiding or end game battlegrounds/arenas for WoW players. I think you could build a game with a lot of sandbox elements that could attract a lot of WoW players. It may not even be recognizable as a sandox to the people who currently play or want sandbox games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This. There are no major studios doing FFA PvP sandboxes because there is no demand.
Plus:
LOL at AoC being a sandbox.
Did DF ever have more than 20k subs? How about FE? MO probably never had as many as either.
AFAIK UO and DAoC both capped in the neighborhood of 250k, and you can bet there was major crossover in those playerbases. Players fled the regular UO servers for Trammel and DAoC only had 2 of their 21 servers as FFA PvP at its' peak.
Considering how fast SB folded, I wouldn't count that as a successful sandbox.
Sorry, didn't read every post, so this may have been stated ad nauseam already.
But first you have to define "sandbox".
It could be Second Life, or Star Wars Galaxies where you grind out 10 professions to get a light saber, or soemthing in between.
What do you mean by "AAA Sandbox"?
Maybe some day a developer will design a popular "sandbox" but I don't think we even know what that will look like until it's done.
Maybe an AAA version of Mine Craft?
And you statement is based on nothing but your own guesses.
The successful sandboxes are those where other players can't come in and screw things up (Oblivion, Fallout, Minecraft.)
So I think Teala's on the right track that the way to make a successful sandbox is to also ensure it's a strong themepark.
Because historically people buy simulations (sandboxes) much less than games (themeparks). Most people couldn't care less whether a game simulates something with exacting detail -- as long as it consistently offers them interesting decisions.
Either that, or let players shape their own part of the world but not be able to ruin others' parts (at which point many sandboxophiles would say the game is no longer a sandbox.) Which I suppose is closer to how H&H works now that I think about it (you establish borders and it's actually a huge amount of work (and risk) to be capable of ruining others' borders; if they'd removed that capability entirely, so much the better.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I really think that would make for an inctredible hit.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Again Second Life has more than 20 million player base at last diclosure. So this is a small segment?
50% of the sandbox market based on a single game ,10mill. Ok I will settle for that...
Core i5 13600KF, BeQuiet Pure Loop FX 360, 32gb DDR5-6000 XPG, WD SN850 NVMe ,PNY 3090 XLR8, Asus Prime Z790-A, Lian-Li O11 PCMR case (limited ed 1045/2000), 32" LG Ultragear 4k Monitor, Logitech G560 LightSync Sound, Razer Deathadder V2 and Razer Blackwidow V3 Keyboard