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Are we customers or investors?
Big_Data
Member UncommonPosts: 48
I have been playing the Earthrise beta the last week or so (quick review: a polished version of ER would be great, but it isn't close to being there yet).
A common debate being had in the ER community is whether to buy now and subscribe from day one or not. Overall I think there is widespread agreement that the game isn't "done" and is very "rough".
The debate then becomes; is it the customers duty to prop up a game that isn't finished with cash, so that it can hopefully become the game you want it to be?
This seems to be a buisness model within the MMO market - get the game as far along as possible with current funds knowing at some point you are going to have to use customer funds to finish.
Some folks think that the nature of an MMO makes that model inevitable, and we just have to accept that if we want niche MMO's to make it, we have to help fund them.
In that case, the customer turns into a pseudo-investor, where we use our funds to help build the game. Of course, we aren't true investors, because we get no return sans the game we purchased as customers.
What does the community think? In my mind as MMO's are allowed to do this, it has begun to spread to other game types. I am sure we can all come up with a game or two that wasn't quite finished at launch, then got a patch a bit later on fixing everything.
Isn't that like spending full price on a car, but the car has no radio or speakers - "Don't worry, we will deliver that in a month. We need your money from the car purchase to get the radio to you."
In the case of Earthrise, some may argue that the car is missing more than just a radio and speakers...
Comments
I think we are investors. And we DO get rewards for investing wisely... not money... but a game instead.
Fair deal? Probably not.
In the case of indie developers you could be classed as a small investor.
In the case of large established companies/corporations you're a customer.
In the case of SOE you're a cash cow that needs to be milked until your udders drop off and you keel over dead!
In the case of ER, it has a solid bare bones setup. They need to get as much working flesh on it within the first 3 months or it'll all go tits up. So for me a person who has already bought a DD before launch I'm a high risk investor on the futures market, I could really cash in or lose it all. If I lose out then it's no biggie for me, if not then let the good times roll. Masthead studios will either be the next CCP or the next in a long line of casualties to attain what was lost in SWG pre CU.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Well my thoughts on this are well known not just with this game with many other games that have attempted to follow this business model.
In any other industry or product in North America this just would not happen, there are tons of consumer protection laws in place, to protect against this sort of practice.
Problem is, this industry is not regulated for whatever reason, most of the regulatory bureaucracy just does not understand the industry well enough to jump in and put standards of quality in place.
I've been trying to get the FCC to take responsibility for the regulation of video games for years, I even proposed legislation here in Florida to expand our current consumer protection laws to include video game developers and distributors. I got B-slapped by so many lawyers my ears are still ringing.
This is a multi-billion dollar industry with no regulation, no accountability.
I have never held any doubt that much of the money behind video games is illegal money, drug and terrorist money. It is a perfect industry to wash money, everything is virtual, there is no hard product to track. Developers and Distributors can claim any number of accounts they want or need to explain any amount of " revenue " they need to account for.
To be honest I would not be surprised if the CIA or other government clandestines did not used a shell video game company or two to move operations money freely around the planet.
That would account for the governments hesitancy in regulation of the industry, hard to hide in plain sight when there are paper pushers documenting everything you do.
Customers
It's like purchasing a product from a small startup (maybe a new art stand from a market or bazaar). The continuing revenue from the customer is used to expand the business and hopefully improve their product.
I'm my opinion, it's never an investment unless one can potentially get a higher amount of money than they put in. As some people sell accounts or items for real money, then it could be classified as an investment to them.
Therefore gold farmers are investors?
I like your brain. this is a very interesting light to shine on the industry.... We're all caught up in whether games are good or bad, or will beat this game or that, or have more subs,, etc etc... What you don't see us talking about is the lack of regulation in this industry. For instance, why is it ok to let game companies profit with so little regulation on the product they offer? Why are the developers allowed to boldly lie about the features they offer in their games without any reprocussion from their customers and legal parties? Why are people spending money IRL for digital content not insured in any way for their purchases? Why are people getting hacked by the millions, yet the companies themselves that maintain the servers and security aren't held responsible. Why is there still no resolution to the exploits of gold farmers cashing in on a product that isn't theirs to sell? How is it not a legal matter that people pay for games that aren't completed at release, and then shut down because they didn't profit enough?
Indeed, what is going on here?
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Gold farmers invest in their own business rather than the game itself. They care whether their own business succeeds and not whether the game is successfull. They want a game that makes gold buying prevelent even if it wrecks the game.
We are customers.
That being said the very nature of MMOs are that they always are under development. New content should always be released. Take the game for what it is now, if you like it play it. If you don't like it as is, then don't put yourself through the mess hoping that it would get any better or develop into the game that you would want it to be. Because chance's are, it won't. Just understand the nature of the genre the game wll always be a bit undone.
What is completely unaccepitable is developers leaving other games undone when they release them. (FPS, RTS, etc.) Which also seems to become practice by many developers nowadays. There seems to be a mindset that broken games can be released as long as they could be patched later online.
I guess the only real advise that can be said is, be the educated consumer. Pay for the games that are worth it... In cases like these, do not think about investing in them.
Don't know why you chose to pose this question as "duty." I suppose it can be a self-imposed duty, ala "if I want games developed for me, I need to support indie companies even if I get ripped off." In the end it is still a choice each of us has to make. I wouldn't, for various reasons.
To the guy who thinks this should be regulated, come on. First, if this happened, you can demand refund or a chargeback on your card. If you still can't get your money back, you can sue and win. What, not worth it to sue for $40 bux? Then don't expect the gubmint to get involved.
The gubmint should regulate health and banking, where people die or economies collapse. It should not be wasting time and money on an entertainment industry where the damages are $40 per hit. Buyer beware and take responsibility for yourself. Yeesh.
I'm under the impression that an "investor" risks money in an enterprise under the assumption that value will accrue over time, thus turning a profit. If we were to buy something like an lifetime MMO subscription, and the MMO becomes extremely popular, the value of that subscription is not going to go up- developers will lower the price of future subscriptions to attract more players. A similar change occurs if the game is not popular. So it sounds to me like we're just buying a product without any expectation of getting any money back.
I could not stand the fact that everybody was spawning at the same excat location: NAKED....
GW2 devs said: We'll give you cool armor right from the start and it'll only get better.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Obviously we are customers, due to the reason that what is given is a choice. It may become different if we wouldn't have that choice. People who want different laws then those already in place must have low-selfcontrol to not be able to see video games as a choice.
I disagree.
You get what you pay for. If you pay for a crappy game, that's what you get. What may come in the future is irrelevant, you're not paying for that.
You are paying for playing the game, right now, in it's current condition.
If that's good enough for enough to make money with subs or cash shop purchases so that improvements and expansions are made, great.
if it's not good enough to make enough money to make improvements and expansions, then it will go broke and the servers will close.
I don't actually believe anyone pays to play a crappy game because of what they think the developers will do with their sub money in the future.
It's crappy, but not so crappy you won't pay for it, so it must be of some value.
Otherwise, you'd just send in yoru sub money, and not play, and then log in a year later to see if the game has gotten better.
But people quit paying when they quit playing.
More a supporter
Godspeed my fellow gamer
more like sheep.
Yeah, in alot of cases, that too.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
Let's break this down, shall we?
1. This seems like it's just setting us up for your other questions.
2. Boldly lie about features? The only case where you could argue this is Funcom advertising DX10 in AoC on the boxes, when DX10 functionality wasn't implemented until months after release. Everything else in the features list is veiled by marketing buzzwords like "epic", "fun", "exciting", which are all based upon personal opinion - thus, the company can't be held accountable if you thought the PvP "sucked." Futhermore, if a major game mechanic is removed or changed during development, 99 times out of a hundred, the company will change the feature list to reflect that (the 100th time being Funcom, as I mentioned).
Or perhaps you meant blatant bait n' switches, like Dark & Light? That's a different story.
3. In the case of MMOs, you're paying for digital content that is being added to a virtual, persistent world. What kind of insurance would you want? Also, what kind of digital content are you referring to? Simple things, like items purchased from a cash shop, or more complex things, like content packs or expansions?
4. The majority of hacked players can blame their own lack of security, stupidity, or a combination thereof. I know it's hard to imagine anyone would be moronic enough to click those "Dear World Warcraft customer, This Blizzard Entertainment Security Division. Please, we need to accessing your account because you charged with illegal sellining of good. Click this link to be taken to Account Management, thanking you for your time" emails. But people do, especially when they appear more legit than the obviously malarky example I just whipped up. The small percentage that take proper security measures, don't give out their passwords, don't click on those links, etc., and still get hacked? Tough luck. The fact is, anything and everything that is stolen exists in a virtual world. They are not real, and there is no legal argument.
5. Again, they run their "business" in a virtual world, despite the fact that they really are leeches.
6. Haha, I love this one. "Completed at release." Since everyone's opinion of what that means differs (though we'll all say things like, "It has to be... "polished"... relatively "bug-free"... "fun", the most ambiguous one of all, etc). Question 2 and question 4 may be regulated some day. This last one? Never. The fact is, you choose to pay for a product, and if you don't feel it's "completed at release", don't spend money on it. How can you tell without buying it? Same way you decide to buy any other product; you won't ultimately know whether you like it or not unless you bite the bullet and fork up the cash, but you can get a relative idea - enough to make an informed decision - by listening to reviews, both professional and player-written ones. In the case of the latter, try to find a player that has the same type of personality as you; i.e., don't look for a WoW review by a sandbox lover, look for one by a person who has tried both genres, but understands themeparks are different.
7. The strange genre of MMOs.
Now regarding the OP, I like that he started this discussion. We're really a little of both. When we make the initial purchase, we're customers. Whether or not we continue our subscriptions makes us investors, because with each $15 a month, we're investing in the game's future and continued development. That's the thing: MMOs are never "complete." The level of devotion we have differs; some people will pay $15 a month to play a game they don't really enjoy, knowing that it sucks, because they hope that it'll improve. Others think that's crazy, and stop paying once they stop having fun. At that point, it's completely up to the individual.
For subs, we are definately Investors and Sheep after the first month,
Therefore I purpose all MMO be converted to DLC format, therefore we become customers again
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
^^ This
Investors of time and effort. Hopes and dreams. And sometimes, just sometimes... people spend 6 digits on virtual properties on Project Entropia/Planet Calypso.
Exactly, those people see an opportunity with low startup costs and high returns. They only need to pay for an internet connection, some PCs, and some cheap labor. It only works in geographic areas where the cost of labor is low though.
On an interesting note, one can almost measure the popularity of the game by the amount of gold farmers there are. If the particular game is lacking, the "investors" will focus on better "investments".
Go GW2, go!
Run Boo, run!
Go for the optics Chiktikka, go for the optics!
I agree, we are investors first then we somehow became customers.
In some cases i feel more like a customer, when there is good customer service and they actually improve the game.
In other cases i only see myself as an investor that sees hes money go to waste.
Customers of course. You are paying for a service and product, not buying ownership of a company. /thread
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
We aren't talking about investing in a company, we are talking about investing in a game. We are buying the ownership of the game.
I doubt WoW requires 6mil (presuming not all active accounts subscripted to the game) x $14.99 = 89.94 mil per month to run the servers.......Extra money will just go to the development of expansions, which require us to spend more money.
A game without player's subscriptions = no improvements = half baked game. It's not they can't make improvements/expansions, its more like the won't do it without money income. Therefore we are investing on the success of the game so we can have a better gaming experience.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.