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Star Wars: The Old Republic: If You Strike Me Down
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
It is inevitable that every character will die at some point in a game but it is the mechanic behind death, the penalty behind dying, that overjoys or irks players. In this week's Star Wars: The Old Republic column, MMORPG.com Community Manager Michael Bitton discusses the game's death penalty and why the devs chose the system they are creating. Check out Mike's thoughts and then give us a few of your own in the comments.
For one, they want players to be able to take chances, and having a severe death penalty would deter players from taking risks. If I’m playing devil’s advocate, I feel this is probably one of the weaker points for someone who prefers harsher penalties; you might argue that the reward of taking those risks would be that much greater if there is a significant threat of loss on failure, and there is a certain truth to that (Demon’s Souls anyone?!).
Read more of Mike Bitton's SWTOR: If You Strike Me Down.
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Comments
I found the SWG death penalty ok, but maybe I shouldn't of gone after to many storm troppers.
Wasn't there a video saying that they wanted you to feel like you could take on a whole group easily and feel like a real hero ? I know the whole game shouldn't be based on this. But i think death penalties should not be to harsh, the degrading of gear is fine and should be it, maybe the long track back to mission area. I'd hate to see your corpse being looted if you died infact that would put me off TOR.
"He's no good to me dead."
Good article. As you state after reading I could not really pick any holes in Damions thoughts about death penaltys. I never really expected them to be harsh to be honest. This is not being marketed as a "hardcore" game. Sorry if anybody was expecting harsh death penaltys but don't understand why you would have thought this was going to be the case.
*Edit for bad diction.....don't think it helped.
When I play an mmo that has a harsh death penalty or some sort of risk involved, it makes me want to play and explore that much more. Without any real risk, the fun factor can wear thin very rapidly. It inevitably degenerates to: "why the hell am I even doing this?". Followed by a quick: "let's get this shite off of my rig."
I'll have to wait and see as more info is revealed, but like many other people have expressed, the more BW opens the curtain, the less interested I become.
STO was beyond disappointing for me, it would be wonderful if my other favorite IP (turned mmo) didn't bring the same pain.
Back to wait and see mode
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Was Sand People for me in SWG..I think one of the most hilarious sights early on in the game was joining a pack of random naked people in the middle of the desert who were clearly running back to Ft. Tusken to retrieve their corpse. You didn't have to say anything -- you just knew these people were as stupidly adventurous as you were and we'd all just quietly run back in shame to get your stuff. It's fun to laugh about now in hindsight, but as I mentioned in the article, I don't really think I'd want to get into a new game that had that sort of thing.
I'm okay with the death penalty.
To flesh that out, what i mean is i'm okay with any sort of death penalty. If it's light then i'm back in the action quickly, if it's harsh i work around that and make sure i can take the encounter (group up with others). So it doesn't matter which way they go for me.
Edit: would also like to add that in games like SWG you actually died and were cloned again. So it made sense for all your stuff were droped on your corpse. Whereas in ToR you are defeated (yeah i know it's the same thing generally) so it makes more sense seeing as you get pulled to safety that you keep all your stuff. Otherwise they would have to explain how you have a corpse when you were rescued not killed.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I think they can provide an option for people in favor of a harsher death penalty.
'Hard Core' Characters, where if you die you lose items and lose experience, and are placed back to your home city and must walk to your corpse.
Oh but then these Hard Core characters would QQ because EVERYONE doesn't face the same penalty.
See, it's not about choice really, it's simply elitism.
I appreciate a harsh death penalty (within reason). The sense of adventure and danger just are not there when I am playing World of Warcraft, but when I played Everquest, I would sometimes be on the edge of my seat, tense and anxious.
I think the original creators of SWG had it perfectly right. The "harsh" death penalty that forced players to recuperate may have seemed like a pain in the ass to players, but it actually tied together a system of classes that functioned much differently than any other typical mmo.
The dancers healed the wounded. In any other typical mmo, it'd be a cleric or healer, you'd click a button, and you're good to go. In SWG, a player could actually become something other than a warrior. I didn't carry a blaster, or any kind of weapon towards my later years. I was a crafter, and I fit in perfectly, because the system allowed it. Dancers fit in because of the system, however annoying it might have been to the wounded. If it was that much of a pain, then wouldn't it have given you that much more incentive to stay alive?
PvP loot is harsh, but players can cope by working with the system instead of against it. If you wonder out on your own and are killed, thereby losing your belongings, it feels terrible, but that probably could have been avoided if you went out with some support.
I don't buy into the idea that players will take the path of least resistance and do the easy stuff while avoiding the difficult content in order to stay alive. If someone has their eye on a reward, or wants the fame for killing the nasty boss mob, or just likes a challenge, I assume that in trying to do so, they prepare and bring the right tools and the help they need to succeed. Players who suffer a harsh death penalty more often are those that are careless, or unlucky. Players that are aware and that can plan ahead will not complain about it as much.
If nobody complains about the death penalty, then in my opinion, it is not harsh enough. Now, you can easily see that I do play Demon Soul's, and I love it.
Easiest way to do it is have one 'Hardcore' server with harsher penalties and let the people who want to play with that ruleset play there. That way those, like me, with limited time, etc can play the ruleset they prefer. Different strokes for different folks after all.
lol
I just had a prob with tabbing, always found a ST when out with the guild questing. Never did get help though just laughed at.
I dont mind a death penalty, infact I kind of know what to expect from TOR.
I'd prefer something quick that would enable me to get back into the thick of the action.
Maybe some filter built in allowing you to tone down the harshness ?
"He's no good to me dead."
I prefer playing games and mmo's for that matter where the risk of loss if very high, and prefer failing due to hard game mechanic its spurs me on and motivates me to play the game more. i would rather fail at a difficult game then succeed at an easy one.
For me personally Death Penalty is a non issue and not something I even consider when deciding to purchase a game.Whatever the penalty is I'll adjust accordingly it's what I'm doing for the majority of the game that may lead to my toon dying that is important.
in most of the MUDs I played, if you fell into a deathtrap, your char was DEAD, as in DEAD forever. Actually making players think about their decisions, what a concept.
PLAY WURM ONLINE!! www.wurmonline.com
Good article and responses. What is most amazing to me is the 'harsh penalties' crowd have a peculiar attitude toward this subject. Harsh death penalties are already in virtually any MMO out there! Got killed - then divest your 'stuff' and 'will' it to anyone you want (just like in real life) and then delete the character. Anyone who wants a harsh penalty can do this anytime they die (to the delight of their 'heirs') and thats that. Harsh death penalty, in game, all the time for those who want it. You can even 'loot' your own character by discarding all money and equipment and starting again with whatever you have banked away. The full range of death penalties is already in most all MMOs.
So what is the problem. Hardcore death penalty supporters want not just the challenge for themselves, that is already there. They want everyone else to face the same or get out and play something else. My way or the Highway mentality. As Damion pointed out, in a way, STOR is not a 'niche' game for the hardcore. They can't make enough money from those players to keep it going. I am a PvE centric player (as the majority of MMO players tend to be) and I am looking forward to STOR to join the other two games I play, and pay for. Bioware has to decide whether to satisfy enough of us to support the game's very existance or the smaller group who want to force their views on everyone. Especially since what the lesser group wants is already in the game.
LET ME REPEAT! Perma-death, gear loss etc...is already in the game. Use it if you want it, don't if you don't want it. An option! How wonderful is that. Not satisfactory? Then suggest you check your motives, not mine, since you want no choice for me and I support your ability to choose. QED
I always liked Neocron's setup, but that wouldn't work for ToR. Anyway i'm sure Bioware will get it right. They have yet to let me down, Mass Effect 1 & 2 = amazing, Dragonage = pretty damn good, KotOR1 great.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Excellent point made above, can't agree more. You can enact any sort of death penalty you like in any game. Don't subject everyone else to your rules, let them play as they are comfortable.
A harsh penalty does not make a game better. I enjoyed my time in UO and lost mountains of equipment, but that really does not work in today's games well.
Harsh death penalties in games I played years ago was fine. It was exciting and even thrilling at time to barely escape from death. Back then I had an abundance of the commodity known as time. As I (and most of us do) get older the quantity of that particular commodity dwindles. Part of me still screams for a death penalty that would scare the bejeebus out of me but that is a very small part. I want to enjoy my time, after all, I already have a full time job.
Being defeated reminds me of Lord of the Rings Online. It made more sense to be deafeted, instead of dieing and have to do a corpse run. It just didn't fit in with the lore of Lotro. The penalty of being defeated was you lose some of your gear durability and you get a fear ( i think that is what it is called) which lowers your health, only way to get rid of it was to have a Minstrel or pop a Hope Token.
But Like you I can usually deal with any death penalty, so it is not as big of a deal for me.
Games playing: Lotro,Fallen Earth,Star Trek Online.
Games playing casually: CoX,Guild Wars,FFXIV,Champions Online,DDO.
Games Played: WoW,DR,L2,RoM,FFXI,Earthrise,EQ2,DAoC,WAR,Rift,Alganon,EVE,G&H Rome Rising.
Waiting for: Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic.
PC Specs: Intel i7 990x 3.5ghz, 6gb ddr3 Ram,EVGA GTX 570 SC FTW,EVGA x58 Classified 4-way SLI MB, 2TB HDD 7200rpm, 60GB Intel SSD: OS Drive, Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit, Westinghouse 21 in. 1680x1050.
The term i think was dread.
I'm not sure if ToR will have the same version of dread as they stated they didn't want you to have to wait out a timer which was basically what dread was.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I almost never agree with Elikal, but garry has a very good point and I agree with him 110%.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
No, that was not a good point in any way. Handicapping yourself in such a silly and dramatic fashion is pointless. If I need to "pretend" or do something in game that is so far away from how the game was designed to be played, I'm playing the wrong game. If I really wanted to be hardcore I could just uninstall the game, or better yet, take a hammer to my hard drive. Now that's a fucking death penalty, right?
No one is trying to subject you to any specific ruleset, Ozmodan. You are free to enjoy the vast sea of games that already cater to your playstyle preferences, and those who desire something other than that, are as well. Why do you always seem to come across as someone who is being forced to play in these violent and scary games? The majority of modern mmos are quite "safe" with respect to death penalties and PVP design. You can play as you "are comfortable".
Harsh penalties may not "work" for you, but make no mistake, there are many of us that do indeed play and enjoy games that have such a feature. Hundres of thousands of EVE players would definitely disagree with your last sentence. Apparently it can "work" in today's games, even if you don't enjoy them.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Well I didn't expect anything other from TOR, but honestly (old MUD player here myself) I prefer harsher death penalties myself. It does a few things....
1) It can actualy help BUILD a sense of community. Many of you who have played MUD's can probably attest to the efforts made to help other players retrieve corpses and gear when they fell (often even those of strangers) and the sense of community this helped create by people banding together to help those who got in trouble.
2) It fosters a sense of adventure. The 20 ft tall Fire Giant King becomes alot less imposing, awe inspringing and frightening if you know the worst thing he can do to you is give you a 30 second time out if he kills you. With a harsh death penalty, the risks and how you deal with them actualy start to matter.
3) It encourages better encounter design. Designers practice what I call artificial hardship in thier designs. They use all sorts of gimmecks to make the encounter so difficult that players tend to have to follow an exact sequence of steps in an exact way in order to defeat the encounter (i.e. step on this square, then cast fireball, then run to this square and cast frost, etc). They do this because they know the players will repeat this over dozens of times (with little consequence for failure) until they find exactly the right combo to win... that isn't combat, it's choreography....and it's not much fun for most players. Nor is it good game design, it's bad game design. A good design should be quite open in terms of the different methods to approach defeating it..... it should allow the players to be able to make a few mistakes and still recover and win...it should also have some chance of the players NOT winning....and that result NOT being a roadblock to progressing in the game. The only thing that current design encourages is a time-sink and mindless repitition.
4) It encourages better and less linear game design overall. Current design is pretty much pass/fail. Either you pass the encounters and achieve the reward or you fail and you don't...often with failure being a roadblock to progressing in the story-line or even the game. That's just plain simple, bad and lazy game design.
Encounters shouldn't be simple pass/fail. There should be gradations of success or failure along with partial rewards for each.... and failing any given encounter should be an expected and accounted for result. In most cases it should NOT act as a roadblock to progress in either the story-arc or the game itself. You should be able to proceede even if you failed....you just proceed in a somewhat different fashion. That makes a player feel allot more like they are actualy a character in a story...rather then simply just "doing content" until you've pressed the lever that the designer told you you had to in order to get to the next scene.
5) It engages players on an intellectual level rather then a pavlovian one. If there is a cost to failing an encounter such that you can't afford an infinite number of swipes at it, then players will spend more time thinking about, preparing, organizing and approaching encounters rather then mindlessly running at them until they happen by chance on the right combination for success...like a thousand monkeys pounding away on a keyboard. When was the last time an MMO actualy made you think about what you were doing?
In short, the attitudes of designers like Mr. Schubert are part of the reason (IMO) why we have such a lackluster series of offerings in MMO's these days. I really wish they had taken more lessons from the designers on text based MUD's or even Strategy or War Games rather then the console based action games that are so apparently thier philosophical design inspiration.
And yet the majority of MMO players do not play EVE. think on that . . .
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I like DCUO's death panelty. I think we incur damage to the armor, but it takes less then a minute to get back into the fight. I did not like FFXIV's death panelty. Terrible, I don't want to wait 10 minutes to get back into the fight b/c I died, ugh....
I hope they don't pull this kind of stunt. I think WoW's death panelty is similar to DC.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Yep you are right it is Dread. I have been playing Lotro since 07 and I can't beleive I forgot that term, lol. And yea I don't think Star Wars will have something like Dread. I was just saying that in Lotro you didn't die you were just "defeated" and you retreat from battle to gain back your strength. Dieing wouldn't make sense Lore wise.
But anyway I like TORs system and I think it fits with the game.
Games playing: Lotro,Fallen Earth,Star Trek Online.
Games playing casually: CoX,Guild Wars,FFXIV,Champions Online,DDO.
Games Played: WoW,DR,L2,RoM,FFXI,Earthrise,EQ2,DAoC,WAR,Rift,Alganon,EVE,G&H Rome Rising.
Waiting for: Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic.
PC Specs: Intel i7 990x 3.5ghz, 6gb ddr3 Ram,EVGA GTX 570 SC FTW,EVGA x58 Classified 4-way SLI MB, 2TB HDD 7200rpm, 60GB Intel SSD: OS Drive, Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit, Westinghouse 21 in. 1680x1050.