Not a big fan of harsh death penalties here. But also it would make a game no fun to have it to easy too. SWG now just comes down to paying some creds and its done. That I feel is to easy. I would like to see something along the lines of DCUO has now. When one is killed the toon itself is fine but your gear gets trashed. The way to fix gear is to leave what ever mission you are on and find the closest safe house to repair. It only takes money to fix it but its not cheap and the game has no easy way of gaining more money.
Not to seem like I'm argueing but I was going to mention DCU in my comment, for me DCU has no penalty at all, the gear degredation is so minimal it's pointless having it. From a PvP point of view you can continue to just zerg again and again with no delay at all, I can ussually get back and start fighting the same guy that just killed me before he's finished killing the guy I was with or mob I was near. The result is you can chain attack him forever so long as we keep pulling him back, in DCU thats not a massive problem because people seem so happy to join in the fight on both sides (probably because of the lack of any kind of penalty) and numbers discount the zerg/rez effect.
I think in part this ads to a lot of people perspective of DCU being an MMO lite, the lack of real risk doesn't help with a feeling of connection with the character and a lack of depth.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I have always been in favor if big death peneltys. I have played aion for awhile and since launch i liked there xp lost system when you die. You can then pay ingame money(theres your money sink) to gained the xp lost to level, but dont have to.
I also am one of those who favor harsher death penalties. I like a higher scale for risk/reward. I feel like I have gotten something done when the risk is higher and it does require me to team up with others to get the job done.
One of my ongoing issues is the lack of a good challenge/reward system, Blizzard and other game design companies have really removed that type of game play from the table. Being also one of the older gamers I also have years of MUD and other text based rpg experience as well as table top gaming. I miss the sense of "holy @$##$@ If we fail here we lose it all!" adrenaline rushes.
I will agree that I don't want to return a system of corpse looting where you lose your gear to other players. Mostly due to the abuse factor that tends to crop up in such situations. Love pvp but I do know how it can be abused, and ganking by snipes never amuses me. Though I do love the rush when you either counter a ganker by taking them out or just managed to evade/escape them. Must be the old recon scout in me that loves that aspect of game play. Denied buddy!
Anyhow its the sense of risk/reward basically that it all boils down and the lack of. Dumbing down challenges, removing the sting from being a dumbass etc makes for a game that is lack luster for me. When you do this, you actually "do" make me more of a soloist player since I don't need to buddy up or take the time to find compatible hunting partners.
Much as I think that current death penalties are kinda weak, they make a really good point. A game with harsh death penalties needs to be designed differently than one wish a soft one. You'd really need to not die as often. Consider working on a raid boss where you wipe a dozen times while learning. That experience would really suck with a harsh death penalty. I think I'm slowly changing my mind about what a death has to do in an MMO.
Well, I think you make a very good point. Putting in harsh death penalties is something that really has to mesh with the other design aspects of the game. Taking say something like perma-death or full gear loss and plunking it down into Warcraft would be a disaster.
It really works where the game is designed with that ruleset in mind at the offset.
I think some key features would be...
1) Not so gear centric as most of todays MMO's. Your character shouldn't be gimped by not having the Platinum Teir Sword of Ultimate Doom that it takes a 24 man raid and a lucky loot role to get. Gear should generaly be replaceable. Maybe the very top gear should be rare and difficult to get...but the difference between the top end gear and the standard stuff that you can pickup with a little bit of effort should not be so huge as to gimp your characters.
2) Death in combat should be rarer and not as arbitrary as in many MMO's. Essentialy the combat system should be able to forgive the occasional mistake or string of bad luck.
3) There needs to be some built in way of at least mitigating some portion of the death penalty if the right things are done after you die. For example, if you die ...have some opportunity for some-one to come out and rescue you or your gear before it goes bye bye. That means that the harshest penalty only gets experienced by folks that have multiple things go wrong.
4) Greater range of things you can gain some progression from. That way for folks that have run into a string of really bad luck (or just plain aren't as good as combat).... they don't get into a downward spiral which is impossible to dig themselves out from. So if you do get hit really hard...you can have some easier (but less rewarding) content that you can do to build yourself back upto the point where your ready for greater risks again.
I have to agree with some here that a harsher death penalty does make an MMO like this much more interesting to play as it caries more the story line. This does not necessarily mean corpse running, losing high end loot etc. but in a tech environment like this one very high repair costs or very cumbersome repairs. I think also that to light penalties often make players kind of "grind" because they keep trying to get through a quest or similar they not yet really up for but nearly.
With regards to the point about players not joining easily a group, because of the risks involved, I truly believe that a good guild system does change this into an advantage as teaming up and supporting weaker members becomes even more important. This is something I always liked in EVE.
you know what Damnion? go back to WOW omg. Why games like EvE online works? Why UO worked? . Ok it seems that new swtor will be kidsdontworryyoudieyouwillrespawnfullinaminute to perform another heroic suicidal attack!
EVE Online death penalty is one of the harshest in the industry. And you see how many people stick their necks out. However, the tension and pure excitement that I feel when I am in a battle or getting ganked in EVE can not be reproduced in any other game. In other games it is actually a decent strategy to get killed just to get close or take out a few mobs then die...run back and kill some more and die...run back and kill some more...die...
Anyways, I think STWOR is doing the right thing with not making the death penalty a big deal
Currently Play: ? Occasionally Play: Champions, Pirates of the Burning Sea, WOW, EVE ONLINE
I'm sorry but there are way too many bad players out there which you'll get in pug's for there to be a harsh death penalty. Gear getting deteriorated and costly repairs should be it and nothing more.
And I hope the wow community stays in wow as this game doesn't need the dumb stuff that goes on in that game by players.
Besides, you want to be able to concentrate on the content and what's going on instead of "What if I die" being constantly on your mind. I'm confident Bioware will make the correct decision and won't be anything like the devs in wow where they're constantly messing with the classes and the game.
i am old school swg (although i stopped playing when they nuked the game). I actually liked the way they handled death and injury, the forced interactivity with other players to get a certain type of healer to take off disease etc i felt was very creative and really got people talking and interacting who otherwise wouldnt have
Logically invalid. Oh Boy here we go. You 'choose' to die (forced game mechanic) and you 'choose' fpr me to die (game mechanic) as well. I either acept your decision or play something else. I prefer to have a choice, as per your example of the housebreak-in, to have my gun at bedside or under my pillow or maby just to jump out the window. Choice - what a concept and as American as apple pie!
BTW! Has anyone noticed that those of us who prefer a general 'death penalty' of some kind present our views in a fairly simple manner. Those who prefer 'harsh' penalty use terms such as 'logically invalid', 'stupidest' , 'carebears' etc....hostile. Statements about how many prefer what type of play are all subjective except for numbers of subs (WOW). WOW haters are here and again are derisive or contemptuous of anyone who plays a game they don't like.
Lets be honest with each other. If I don't like some game mechanic or play then I won't play the game. No harm or insult to you if you do like it. One of the posters above said why not have dedicated servers for 'harsh penalty' devotees and this seems like a reasonable way to let both types play - and pay - the game. Mouthy rhetoric and insults gain nothing. I like what I have seen of SWtOR so far and intend to play - and - pay for it. I hope you others do the same and we can both support the game. including the business part, and keep it going. See you in game!
Comments
Not to seem like I'm argueing but I was going to mention DCU in my comment, for me DCU has no penalty at all, the gear degredation is so minimal it's pointless having it. From a PvP point of view you can continue to just zerg again and again with no delay at all, I can ussually get back and start fighting the same guy that just killed me before he's finished killing the guy I was with or mob I was near. The result is you can chain attack him forever so long as we keep pulling him back, in DCU thats not a massive problem because people seem so happy to join in the fight on both sides (probably because of the lack of any kind of penalty) and numbers discount the zerg/rez effect.
I think in part this ads to a lot of people perspective of DCU being an MMO lite, the lack of real risk doesn't help with a feeling of connection with the character and a lack of depth.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I have always been in favor if big death peneltys. I have played aion for awhile and since launch i liked there xp lost system when you die. You can then pay ingame money(theres your money sink) to gained the xp lost to level, but dont have to.
I also am one of those who favor harsher death penalties. I like a higher scale for risk/reward. I feel like I have gotten something done when the risk is higher and it does require me to team up with others to get the job done.
One of my ongoing issues is the lack of a good challenge/reward system, Blizzard and other game design companies have really removed that type of game play from the table. Being also one of the older gamers I also have years of MUD and other text based rpg experience as well as table top gaming. I miss the sense of "holy @$##$@ If we fail here we lose it all!" adrenaline rushes.
I will agree that I don't want to return a system of corpse looting where you lose your gear to other players. Mostly due to the abuse factor that tends to crop up in such situations. Love pvp but I do know how it can be abused, and ganking by snipes never amuses me. Though I do love the rush when you either counter a ganker by taking them out or just managed to evade/escape them. Must be the old recon scout in me that loves that aspect of game play. Denied buddy!
Anyhow its the sense of risk/reward basically that it all boils down and the lack of. Dumbing down challenges, removing the sting from being a dumbass etc makes for a game that is lack luster for me. When you do this, you actually "do" make me more of a soloist player since I don't need to buddy up or take the time to find compatible hunting partners.
Death penalty is so last season,Death reward is cool.
Generation P
Or reward for staying alive. Cryptic were thining fresh when they invented their "star" system.
i.e., you have base abilities, and you have a "buffer" above those base abilities that degrades the more you die.
Might not be the best implementation, but it's along the right lines for a change in perspective, IMHO.
Well, I think you make a very good point. Putting in harsh death penalties is something that really has to mesh with the other design aspects of the game. Taking say something like perma-death or full gear loss and plunking it down into Warcraft would be a disaster.
It really works where the game is designed with that ruleset in mind at the offset.
I think some key features would be...
1) Not so gear centric as most of todays MMO's. Your character shouldn't be gimped by not having the Platinum Teir Sword of Ultimate Doom that it takes a 24 man raid and a lucky loot role to get. Gear should generaly be replaceable. Maybe the very top gear should be rare and difficult to get...but the difference between the top end gear and the standard stuff that you can pickup with a little bit of effort should not be so huge as to gimp your characters.
2) Death in combat should be rarer and not as arbitrary as in many MMO's. Essentialy the combat system should be able to forgive the occasional mistake or string of bad luck.
3) There needs to be some built in way of at least mitigating some portion of the death penalty if the right things are done after you die. For example, if you die ...have some opportunity for some-one to come out and rescue you or your gear before it goes bye bye. That means that the harshest penalty only gets experienced by folks that have multiple things go wrong.
4) Greater range of things you can gain some progression from. That way for folks that have run into a string of really bad luck (or just plain aren't as good as combat).... they don't get into a downward spiral which is impossible to dig themselves out from. So if you do get hit really hard...you can have some easier (but less rewarding) content that you can do to build yourself back upto the point where your ready for greater risks again.
I have to agree with some here that a harsher death penalty does make an MMO like this much more interesting to play as it caries more the story line. This does not necessarily mean corpse running, losing high end loot etc. but in a tech environment like this one very high repair costs or very cumbersome repairs. I think also that to light penalties often make players kind of "grind" because they keep trying to get through a quest or similar they not yet really up for but nearly.
With regards to the point about players not joining easily a group, because of the risks involved, I truly believe that a good guild system does change this into an advantage as teaming up and supporting weaker members becomes even more important. This is something I always liked in EVE.
Just some thoughts ...
you know what Damnion? go back to WOW omg. Why games like EvE online works? Why UO worked? . Ok it seems that new swtor will be kidsdontworryyoudieyouwillrespawnfullinaminute to perform another heroic suicidal attack!
EVE Online death penalty is one of the harshest in the industry. And you see how many people stick their necks out. However, the tension and pure excitement that I feel when I am in a battle or getting ganked in EVE can not be reproduced in any other game. In other games it is actually a decent strategy to get killed just to get close or take out a few mobs then die...run back and kill some more and die...run back and kill some more...die...
Anyways, I think STWOR is doing the right thing with not making the death penalty a big deal
Currently Play: ?
Occasionally Play: Champions, Pirates of the Burning Sea, WOW, EVE ONLINE
I'm sorry but there are way too many bad players out there which you'll get in pug's for there to be a harsh death penalty. Gear getting deteriorated and costly repairs should be it and nothing more.
And I hope the wow community stays in wow as this game doesn't need the dumb stuff that goes on in that game by players.
Besides, you want to be able to concentrate on the content and what's going on instead of "What if I die" being constantly on your mind. I'm confident Bioware will make the correct decision and won't be anything like the devs in wow where they're constantly messing with the classes and the game.
i am old school swg (although i stopped playing when they nuked the game). I actually liked the way they handled death and injury, the forced interactivity with other players to get a certain type of healer to take off disease etc i felt was very creative and really got people talking and interacting who otherwise wouldnt have
so ok to be harsh with dying
Logically invalid. Oh Boy here we go. You 'choose' to die (forced game mechanic) and you 'choose' fpr me to die (game mechanic) as well. I either acept your decision or play something else. I prefer to have a choice, as per your example of the housebreak-in, to have my gun at bedside or under my pillow or maby just to jump out the window. Choice - what a concept and as American as apple pie!
BTW! Has anyone noticed that those of us who prefer a general 'death penalty' of some kind present our views in a fairly simple manner. Those who prefer 'harsh' penalty use terms such as 'logically invalid', 'stupidest' , 'carebears' etc....hostile. Statements about how many prefer what type of play are all subjective except for numbers of subs (WOW). WOW haters are here and again are derisive or contemptuous of anyone who plays a game they don't like.
Lets be honest with each other. If I don't like some game mechanic or play then I won't play the game. No harm or insult to you if you do like it. One of the posters above said why not have dedicated servers for 'harsh penalty' devotees and this seems like a reasonable way to let both types play - and pay - the game. Mouthy rhetoric and insults gain nothing. I like what I have seen of SWtOR so far and intend to play - and - pay for it. I hope you others do the same and we can both support the game. including the business part, and keep it going. See you in game!