As long the Sandbox-MMO developers believe that serverwide FFA-PvP and shooterlike FPS-Controls be a must they will fail to get a big crowd - beside that they lack the money to make a AAA-Sanbdbox-MMO and a MMO-World must not be monolithic it can be a versatile world if planned right offering a niche for everyone be they small or be they big.
! No serverwide FFA-PvP !
! No FPS-Controls !
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
I agree. And I certainly believe enough people would want to play a real MMORPG. But there will always be more action gamers that want on the rails quest, fast paced action combat and rewards for no effort.
But it makes no difference. Smart companies understand that there are sub genres. And they also recognize that its better to make a game for a big enough minority that is looking for a new game compared to creating a clone and trying to compete with the market leader.
I think Vanguard is one reason why we get no new good games. Vanguard failed because it was unfinished, broken and buggy. I was in the beta from the start when MS was financing. And when they realesed the game I knew it would hurt not only Vanguard but the whole sub genre... They would have needed 12-18 more months to make it ready. Now people are trying to blame the ideas and sub genre( if we can call it that). Eventhough any game that is released broken, buggy and unfinished will fail.
Someday some company will understand that there are a lot of players waiting for a new good game.
This reasoning breaks down (from an investor/executive point of view) because the games that have some of the features that are being asked by the OP, aren't doing 'well' compared to others.
We have Darkfall/MO/EVE etc plenty of games that fit this 'subgenre' you are talking about but none are as popular as some of the other themepark games.
But you cant blame the subgenre. Eve is probably good for people that like sci fi and space ships. I believe its a quality game. But Darkfall/MO are not exactly AAA games. And at least MO is very broken and unfinished... And FFA PvP games...
Personally I want something that is more like EQ pre luclin. But still a new game with some new modern ideas. And a very polished game with a lot of content (not on rails quest).
If a game is fun or not depends on much more than the subgenre. And if its broken, unfinished it will fail....
I think Vanguard is one reason why we get no new good games. Vanguard failed because it was unfinished, broken and buggy. I was in the beta from the start when MS was financing. And when they realesed the game I knew it would hurt not only Vanguard but the whole sub genre... They would have needed 12-18 more months to make it ready. Now people are trying to blame the ideas and sub genre( if we can call it that). Eventhough any game that is released broken, buggy and unfinished will fail.
Someday some company will understand that there are a lot of players waiting for a new good game.
This genre has evolved into a monstrosity. The lunacy of it all boggles the mind. In the early days we didn’t know what massive multiplayer games would become but a lot of us had high hopes.
The pure D&D purists know what I mean. The idea of being able to toss away that graph paper and not have to manually calc THACOS was enticing. Just around the corner was a day when we would have our virtual worlds light up on a screen.
And here we are. We live in the era of R2 (and not the droid). I mean the era of re-releases and the rehashing of “sound” ideas. Somewhere along the line “they” developed a rosetta stone and the template has been driven down our throat ever since.
Behind the template is the advertising machine and the “fansites”. The fansites hold a steady stream of new articles telling us how new games are coming to offer something new when really it’s the same thing over and over. When you put it all together, the free to play model, the ads, the hype, the addict’s desire to re-kindle something lost, I look at it as lunacy.
The core of the mmo wow clone grinder market is based on the acceptance and embracing of the quest grind pardigm. Gone are the days of UO and EQ. No one seems interested/capable in making a world that brings them back.
The entire (and I mean the entire) free to play paradigm is an appalling capitalistic intrusion into the sanctity of d&d’esque play. World of Warcraft is the Macdonalds of online gaming and we live in a world where people spend millions of dollars on plots for the Farmville.
My point is I see how insane this all is and I’m done chasing the rainbow. I see a little pew pew in Eve in my foreseeable future. Other than that this genre is dead to me and will continue to be dead to me. They can keep their lame ads and stupid promises that “Really we’re not making a wow $$$ clone our game is difffffferenttttt”.
For the record I don’t see anything changing until a game is release where quest driven content and level progression are not parts of the core.
If you ever bought regs in Moonglow or know where Dagnor's Cauldron is thumb your noses at these clowns and just say "no" to new wow quest grinders, it was meant to be better than this.
I agree so much, though i will give it until Arche Age to redeem itself. If that fails then thats it I think for me. I will stick to co-op RPGs and local gaming, back to the tabletop, and leave the MMOs to the new generation of cash cows.
As much as I admire your post though, it won't help, people have been convinced this is the way it should be. As Morpheus says; you look around, what do you see? The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
As long the Sandbox-MMO developers believe that serverwide FFA-PvP and shooterlike FPS-Controls be a must they will fail to get a big crowd - beside that they lack the money to make a AAA-Sanbdbox-MMO and a MMO-World must not be monolithic it can be a versatile world if planned right offering a niche for everyone be they small or be they big.
There are people who say they want sandbox, old style games, but those games actually still exist.
You're just not playing them.
I think people want polish/newness even more, since most of the people who talk about how they want a sandbox actually played a lot of WoW, and a lot of other theme park games.
Why aren't you all playing EvE, Ultima Online (That game still exists, you know), Hearth and Home, Ryzom, Perpetuum or whatever else sandbox games actually really honestly exist?
... and if you are playing them, then what, exactly, are you complaining about? Have you ever considered the fact that there are still sandbox games that are playable,and that people are voting with their dollars? It's not like these games are impossible to find. People honestly LIKE WoW (I don't, but that's besides the point), or at least some things about WoW. To suggest that all those people are incapable of having their own opinion because it doesn't match up with yours seems sort of... naive.
People have different tastes. I realize not everybody likes my taste in games, and it's not because they haven't played the games I have, it's just because... well, not everybody likes what I like.
The companies, naturally, look at trends, and go where they think the money is. If you think they're wrong, start up your own company and prove to everybody that they're wrong.
Oh, wait, that's what games like Darkfall did. They have nearly as many subs as WoW, right?
because all those games are low budget games, theres no AAA company that has 200 million dollars of developement money making a sandbox mmo. are sandbox players not allowed have the same quality and polish as themepark players? So your assumption is sort of naive. All the games you mentioned are indy titles that have a limited budget and do not have the developement dollars as a AAA company does. but as you say sandbox players should just play all those half finished low budget games, the reason sandbox games dont do well is because theres hardly any funding and most are broken its not because players dont like sandbox games.
I guess gamers have to open their eyes to the evolutionary nature of game design eventually. And when they do, some of them are angry.
Then we have the typical "F2P is change! I fear change!" argument, when in fact well-designed F2P is win-win for both developers and players.
Then we have the incorrect "WOW is McD's" argument. We're not talking about a McDs where I can spend more to go to a much better restaurant. We're talking about 5 equally-expensive high-class restaurants, and people showing a clear preference for one of those fancy restaurants in particular.
Personally I feel the genre has evolved away from utter madness. I looked at the punishing grindfests of the past and couldn't understand what possible reason I'd want to play them over mainstream games. Despite that I kept trying new ones (about 8 of em). Eventually, to use a D&D analogy, I found the DM who not only provided me much more interesting content ("You mean we're not endlessly grinding monsters this session!?") but also didn't kick me in my shins (hard) each time I screwed up ("Damn, just bought those steel shinguards too.") The rest is history (although this statement is always a bit odd; isn't it all history if I'm relating a story from my past?)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The orignal concept I saw from MMO's was to have an ongoing game (world) that would have ongoing content so you wouldnt have to play through the same crap twice.
An online world where you could create a character, and this character had choices in what he or she wanted to be, a place to make friends to join you in the experiences provided throughout this digital universe, whether it be combat, crafting or socialising.
Where the hell did that go?!
Certainly wasnt the flawed and badly designed/implemented Sandbox MMo's, not even the legacy grindfest of WoW (yes they add raids, i'd hardly call it interesting content, just another type of grind).
The Genre's stuck, the amount of money that is needed to create a MMO far suppasses any other genre, therefore new innovation is a HUGE risk for developers, we've seen the results of them getting it wrong.
So now devs are too scared to move away from WoW's successful architecture.
Truth is, sure there are people love WoW, but there are others looking for something else.
This genre is the only gaming genre that has soo much more potiential for change, innovation and diversity.
Tapping into a niche thats already taken buy a large competitor is pointless, its like opening a new burger bar on a small street that already has Burger King and McDonalds on. It doesnt matter how good ya burgers taste, your smack bang in the middle of two multi-national fast food giants!!!!
The real way for success to find a new niche of the market, buy creating one (INNOVATION), i.e. Head n Shoulders shampoo "helps reduces dandruff" whereas Pantene "nurishes the roots of ur hair with vitamins" - er its all just Shampoo !! But they've created different niches that both hold different yet substantial market segments compared to the Ordinary shampoo's out there.
I agree with the OP 100%, it's well thought out and written, thanks for sharing.
It seems like a million years ago when MMOs had it right and the future looked bright. So how did we get here, in this travesty of a "MMO" industry? The golden years were so promising and we all dreamed about how awesome MMOs would be in ten or twenty years. But now that we're here, many declining years later, the MMO industry has failed us. It's not even close to what it could have or should have been. Instead, it's a sad state of affairs, we have endless shallow, empty shells of so-called MMOs trying to pass themselves off as legit.
I for one refuse to put any more cash down on crappy titles. Fool me once...
I'll wait for games like D3 and ES5. They can take their crappy *cough* "MMO" titles and shove it. Just not gonna do it anymore.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I do know where Dagnor's Cauldron is and am having much more fun than I ever did in those games in the past. For me, the genre is moving in the right direction. Giving me the choice how I want to play be it quests, mob grind, dungeons, group, pvp... is definately the right way to go.
I say no way to just mob grinding, never again to just one way to play. Forget it, never going there again. I like choices and I have more of them than ever before when it comes to gameplay.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The entire (and I mean the entire) free to play paradigm is an appalling capitalistic intrusion into the sanctity of d&d’esque play.
Eh? D&D-esque play was facilitated by capitalism - i.e., some people owned means of production and freely hired them to other people who freely made books with game rules, and ancillary products, that other people freely bought, and freely used to have fun with friends.
It's not really clear what your complaint is. It seems to be something like this:-
"I and people who think like me had a vision for the way the genre would go. We thought the entire genre, and all investment in that genre, should have gone in that direction. The way investment is going isn't in the direction we hoped it would go."
Well, fair enough, but it's going in the direction a whole bunch of other people want it to go - the people who are buying in droves what the capitalists are selling. Is your complaint, then, simply that you have better taste than them? Or just that people are missing out on a possibility they don't know about? If the latter, then that's a more general problem to do with the human condition. Suppose you are correct that the type of gameplay you want is better, by some reasonable measure; then, suppose people were better educated and more sophisticated and smarter, they would understand what you understand, and would want to buy it - and capitalism, i.e. private property in the means of production, would facilitate THAT.
But anyway, surely the picture isn't as gloomy as you suggest. While the genre as a whole might not be going the way you want, it's still possible for (what in this new context would be called) "niche" MMOs to serve the type of gameplay you want. Eminently possible. CCP did it for the type of gameplay they had a vision for. Likewise with Aventurine, FLS, Icarus Studios - they are all indie developers who have made their own versions of what they consider to be ideal gameplay, and have put their time and energy into it.
In a capitalist system, you are free to do the same: gird your loins, put a shitload of energy and time into it, persuade others to join in your cause, including people who control means of production, and you have a fighting chance to make it happen.
All you guys who are angry at the current state of games should get together, pool all your money, and start up a new MMO company, where you design a game the way you want it.
If you make it well, I'll even play it! Go ahead. What's the point to complaining about something when that doesn't change anything at all, when you can actually go and make a real difference? Then you can make way more interesting posts, where you get to smugly point out your game is inherently much superior, and rather than just say 'A is bad, B is gone', you can say 'A is bad, B is back, come play B and see how it's better than A!'
I think this really solves all the problems, yes?
(By the way, people mentioning all the failed sandboxes just proves my point. Even more than playing a sandbox, the REAL concern most people have is that the game be polished and pretty. Polish is extremely important. It might not be THE reason WoW succeeded where so many games failed, but it's certainly a nice sizable portion of such. Just look at how well Rift is being received, partially because it's not a bug-ridden unpolished mess. People say 'I want a sandbox', but they forget to include the footnotes 'but unless it's polished and pretty, I'll play a theme park instead')
they are games! not oppression from a dictactor. I dont want to risk my future survial so I can spend my time not playing games but instead project management
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
wow might of made it easy for the sheep, but it started before them.
you can blame SOE, they started the death of the genre. how so?
they took out the boats to get to different continents and replaced them with porting gnomes.
they put books in every single zone that you could click to get to plane of knowledge that had books to every single zone in it, along with every single trainer/crafter, EVERYTHING
they completely obliterated the commonland tunnels trading area when they put in the bazaar, which is the first auction house.
and thats a few of the many things SOE did that drove the glory that was EQ1 straight to hell
wow picked up what they started and took it further, believe me if blizzard hadnt of done it, soe would of.
(mod edit)
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
I wholeheartedly approve of all those changes you mention that Soe made Bingbongbros. Travel before than was just tedious and mind-numbing, not exciting at all, 20-30 minutes waiting for the boat and 30 minutes on the boat. No thanks, I want to play a game, not wait to play a game.
Waiding through all the screaming and banter in EC tunnel, hoping I might find what I want, not really paying attention to what I'm doing cause I'm looking at all the text flying by seeing if someone has what I want, than arguing with him on the price cause he is gauging me. No thanks, give me the bazaar any day, a few minutes into see if it's there or not and thats it.
A one stop place for training. Ultra convenient.
Yep I approve of it all.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I wholeheartedly approve of all those changes you mention that Soe made Bingbongbros. Travel before than was just tedious and mind-numbing, not exciting at all, 20-30 minutes waiting for the boat and 30 minutes on the boat. No thanks, I want to play a game, not wait to play a game.
Waiding through all the screaming and banter in EC tunnel, hoping I might find what I want, not really paying attention to what I'm doing cause I'm looking at all the text flying by seeing if someone has what I want, than arguing with him on the price cause he is gauging me. No thanks, give me the bazaar any day, a few minutes into see if it's there or not and thats it.
A one stop place for training. Ultra convenient.
Yep I approve of it all.
Venge
and its players like you that made all the changes to the game and the changes that have made our genre a complete blur of mindless rehashing of the same shit.
people like the op and myself and the majority of all the players from that era were pissed at the changes.
the traveling the open trading, all those things are what brought the world to life, gave it spirit. bartering with real players was great, buying overpriced items from a afk player turned into an item shop not so much.
we wanted a virtual world, you want a game, they want shit tons of money and dont give a fuck how they get it.
console gamers want games not worlds. so they mutated mmo's into console games with multiplayer abilities.
no wonder every damn game that "AAA" companies make they are always trying to make a console platform version too.
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
I think I know why this thread bothers me. Because it sounds like a bunch of cranky grandparents.
'Man, back in the day, we had REAL music, not this crappy rock and roll stuff' 'Jazz stuff' 'Hip hop stuff' 'Big band stuff' 'Operetta stuff'.
Or 'Back in the day, families were CLOSE, because we had to have fun together, not this fancy schmancy listening to the radio thing.' 'Watching TV thing' 'Internet thing'
How about the classic 'You know, when I was a kid, we didn't have these cell phones, they're ruining society, people talking on them instead of to the people next to you' 'People texting instead of talking to the person next to you'
'Back in the day, people knew how to write REAL letters to communicate with each other. Not this stupid phone call stuff' 'Phone calls are so much more personal than that computer mail stuff' 'We wrote REAL E-Mails. Not this subpar texting stuff.'
'Back in the day, we listened to albums, and they were so much better quality than CDs' 'CDs were so much better than MP3s'
I mean, seriously people.
The advance of technology, the march of capitalism, blah blah blah. Don't sound so bitter, it's unbecoming of you all. You know, I wouldn't even mind the whole 'I miss the way games used to be', if it wasn't paired up right next to 'Because modern day MMORPG fans have no taste and are retarded'.
Maybe people just don't want what you wanted. Maybe what you wanted is still offered, but it's just not getting as much attention as the new stuff.
I would rather serve a short stint in prison than be forced to subscribe to WoW, but I'm over it. Maybe I =do= like Rock & Roll more than I like Hip Hop.
So I like E-Mails and can't get a handle on this fancy texting speech.
Fine. Liking old things, fine. Wishing there was more old things, fine. Stop sounding so crotchety though, it's EMBARASSING. I feel like my peers are prematurely the old guy shaking his stick and yelling 'Get off my lawn, you darn new MMO kids!'
Can't we embrace and high five the awesomeness we once had, and point out what is awesome now (SURELY something is awesome now. If it's ALL crap, every single thing, then maybe it's not the games... maybe it's you...)? Can't we do it without sounding so... jealous and petty?
Seriously. Some of you people are acting like the gaming public was your girlfriend and you're mad she left you for WoW, when you were wishing she'd have a three-way with the old game of your choice. (In retrospect, that was a horrible analogy, and I stretched it out far too long)
Lighten up! It's nice looking at how wonderful things were 'back in the day', but admit things weren't perfect. Maybe the modern gaming trends abandoned some of what was great before, but they fixed things that weren't so great. Old style gaming would do a lot better if it would embrace what's improved as well as the past.
(... and if it would admit to itself that as of so far, it's a niche market. Maybe there is some SECRET HUGE UNTAPPED reserve of MMO players who would prefer everything to be like the first generation of MMO games, but I think if you look at the kind of people who play WoW, you'll realize that a lot of them are simply people who wouldn't have played MMOs before. WoW has reached a wider appeal market by designing a game that appeals to such. Don't be mad at developers and publishers for not believing in something that so far as I can tell, is only hearsay and rumor. Why would they want to sink hundreds of millions of dollars into a MAYBE?)
I wholeheartedly approve of all those changes you mention that Soe made Bingbongbros. Travel before than was just tedious and mind-numbing, not exciting at all, 20-30 minutes waiting for the boat and 30 minutes on the boat. No thanks, I want to play a game, not wait to play a game.
Waiding through all the screaming and banter in EC tunnel, hoping I might find what I want, not really paying attention to what I'm doing cause I'm looking at all the text flying by seeing if someone has what I want, than arguing with him on the price cause he is gauging me. No thanks, give me the bazaar any day, a few minutes into see if it's there or not and thats it.
A one stop place for training. Ultra convenient.
Yep I approve of it all.
Venge
and its players like you that made all the changes to the game and the changes that have made our genre a complete blur of mindless rehashing of the same shit.
people like the op and myself and the majority of all the players from that era were pissed at the changes.
the traveling the open trading, all those things are what brought the world to life, gave it spirit. bartering with real players was great, buying overpriced items from a afk player turned into an item shop not so much.
we wanted a virtual world, you want a game, they want shit tons of money and dont give a fuck how they get it.
console gamers want games not worlds. so they mutated mmo's into console games with multiplayer abilities.
no wonder every damn game that "AAA" companies make they are always trying to make a console platform version too.
I think it's players like me that have made these games bigger, better, with more options, more choice, more polish and just more games than ever before. We have so many more choices than we did before. There is so many more games, and in each game there are so many different ways to play. IMO this is a good thing. While players like yourself are stagnating the genre, trying to regress it to places we have allready been and rejected as sub-par.
I don't think the majority of players from that era are pissed. I think the majority of people are embracing it because they do have more choices, they get to play how they want to whatever way that is. Want to grind, go for it, quest go for it, pvp go for it, solo go for it, group go for it... These games offer far far far more than the old games dids. I think there are actually only a small number of people like you that are irritated. The rest are enjoying the far superiour games.
EQ was mob grind or nothing. That was it. WoW offers far more.
Travelling the open road didn't bring the world to life. Travellign was always go from point A to B as fast as you can. Anyone remember the Karanas - there were a few interesting parts. But sheesh 30 minute travel across barren grasslands, what a waste of my time.
People in general want entertainment be it console or pc, they want to play the game. Not wait to play the game. These games are more like worlds IMO than ever before because just like the world they offer choices.
And of course there are hundreds of games to choose from. Don't like one, choose another, there is one there that will suit your tastes I can almost guarantee that.
Venge
edit - the rehasing of old ideas is simply because there are now hundreds of games. New and original ideas are easy for a genre that only has 1 or 2 options. But when there are hundreds, then truely original ideas are few and far between. The closer you are to the limit (whatever that limit will be) the smaller the changes will be.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
As much as I admire your post though, it won't help, people have been convinced this is the way it should be. As Morpheus says; you look around, what do you see? The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
Though that quote can go towards some truisms in life I think it's very presumptuous to assume that what you label as "good and true" is the only thing that's good and true.
Seriously, I'd love to take a look into some of your lives and point out the things that completely fly in the face of what is being touted as being "good and true".
I'd love to look at the books, music, movies, etc and really see how truly different tastes really are.
I highly suspect that there is a lot of mundanity to be had and a great deal of love for that mundanity.
In any case, as someone else said, there are sandbox games. People need to play and support them.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I wholeheartedly approve of all those changes you mention that Soe made Bingbongbros. Travel before than was just tedious and mind-numbing, not exciting at all, 20-30 minutes waiting for the boat and 30 minutes on the boat. No thanks, I want to play a game, not wait to play a game.
Waiding through all the screaming and banter in EC tunnel, hoping I might find what I want, not really paying attention to what I'm doing cause I'm looking at all the text flying by seeing if someone has what I want, than arguing with him on the price cause he is gauging me. No thanks, give me the bazaar any day, a few minutes into see if it's there or not and thats it.
A one stop place for training. Ultra convenient.
Yep I approve of it all.
Venge
and its players like you that made all the changes to the game and the changes that have made our genre a complete blur of mindless rehashing of the same shit.
people like the op and myself and the majority of all the players from that era were pissed at the changes.
the traveling the open trading, all those things are what brought the world to life, gave it spirit. bartering with real players was great, buying overpriced items from a afk player turned into an item shop not so much.
we wanted a virtual world, you want a game, they want shit tons of money and dont give a fuck how they get it.
console gamers want games not worlds. so they mutated mmo's into console games with multiplayer abilities.
no wonder every damn game that "AAA" companies make they are always trying to make a console platform version too.
How can you claim the 'majority' of players from 'that era' wanted that when the current crop of games is so insanely popular? Part of that is the natural growth of the genre. The rest is that the games are what the majority actually wants.
I was from 'that era', and intentionally avoided subscribing past the first month in all the MMORPGs I tried because they were terrible games.
The majority wants a fun game first and foremost. If it's also more world-like (while still being fun) so much the better. But if the game itself isn't fun, people aren't going to show up to play. And that's exactly what happened for early MMORPGs.
Calling it a "console gamer" thing is entirely inaccurate. While I dabble in console games, I am predominantly a PC gamer. When MMORPGs were coming about, I was too busy with genuinely fun games like System Shock 2, Starcraft, AOE2, RTCW, Quake 3, and NOLF to bother with the grindfests of non-gameplay that early MMORPGs were. (not to insult the great groundwork early devs laid, but I think even they would agree that the experiences they offered were extremely diluted gameplay for the day and age they were created in.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I wholeheartedly approve of all those changes you mention that Soe made Bingbongbros. Travel before than was just tedious and mind-numbing, not exciting at all, 20-30 minutes waiting for the boat and 30 minutes on the boat. No thanks, I want to play a game, not wait to play a game.
Waiding through all the screaming and banter in EC tunnel, hoping I might find what I want, not really paying attention to what I'm doing cause I'm looking at all the text flying by seeing if someone has what I want, than arguing with him on the price cause he is gauging me. No thanks, give me the bazaar any day, a few minutes into see if it's there or not and thats it.
A one stop place for training. Ultra convenient.
Yep I approve of it all.
Venge
and its players like you that made all the changes to the game and the changes that have made our genre a complete blur of mindless rehashing of the same shit.
people like the op and myself and the majority of all the players from that era were pissed at the changes.
the traveling the open trading, all those things are what brought the world to life, gave it spirit. bartering with real players was great, buying overpriced items from a afk player turned into an item shop not so much.
we wanted a virtual world, you want a game, they want shit tons of money and dont give a fuck how they get it.
console gamers want games not worlds. so they mutated mmo's into console games with multiplayer abilities.
no wonder every damn game that "AAA" companies make they are always trying to make a console platform version too.
How can you claim the 'majority' of players from 'that era' wanted that when the current crop of games is so insanely popular? Part of that is the natural growth of the genre. The rest is that the games are what the majority actually wants.
I was from 'that era', and intentionally avoided subscribing past the first month in all the MMORPGs I tried because they were terrible games.
The majority wants a fun game first and foremost. If it's also more world-like (while still being fun) so much the better. But if the game itself isn't fun, people aren't going to show up to play. And that's exactly what happened for early MMORPGs.
Calling it a "console gamer" thing is entirely inaccurate. While I dabble in console games, I am predominantly a PC gamer. When MMORPGs were coming about, I was too busy with genuinely fun games like System Shock 2, Starcraft, AOE2, RTCW, Quake 3, and NOLF to bother with the grindfests of non-gameplay that early MMORPGs were. (not to insult the great groundwork early devs laid, but I think even they would agree that the experiences they offered were extremely diluted gameplay for the day and age they were created in.)
Are they really? Only WoW is popular... Of course there are subgenres. Not everyone think WoW or games like WoW are the best possible MMO:s.
The players from that era are a minority now. New people that would like the same type of game cant find one... Thats the problem. Its ok to like WoW. And some would be able to enjoy both WoW and a more hardcore game based on exploring a virtual world. Without games we will not get new players that prefer this subgenre. At the moment its catch 22...
But there is huge potential for new players. A new game should not be less modern. It should also evolve and be different compared to the older games. But evolve in a different way compared to WoW. And keep what was best in the old games.
There is hope. And it is possible. All we need is one good game. A true AAA -game published by one of the big companies.
Then others will follow....New young players will recognize that its fun. A lot of veteran players and potential new players are waiting.
And fun is subjective. Of course the majority wants a fun game. But there will be a lot of different opinions... They will not all want the same game.
(... and if it would admit to itself that as of so far, it's a niche market. Maybe there is some SECRET HUGE UNTAPPED reserve of MMO players who would prefer everything to be like the first generation of MMO games, but I think if you look at the kind of people who play WoW, you'll realize that a lot of them are simply people who wouldn't have played MMOs before. WoW has reached a wider appeal market by designing a game that appeals to such. Don't be mad at developers and publishers for not believing in something that so far as I can tell, is only hearsay and rumor. Why would they want to sink hundreds of millions of dollars into a MAYBE?)
You know that's a great idea... lets turn FPS into shit so people that woulnd't play FPS can play them now.
Same with RTS.
And race games.
And flight simulator games.
Let's turn them into utter crap so new players that have no fucking idea how to play them can play them!
Comments
As long the Sandbox-MMO developers believe that serverwide FFA-PvP and shooterlike FPS-Controls be a must they will fail to get a big crowd - beside that they lack the money to make a AAA-Sanbdbox-MMO and a MMO-World must not be monolithic it can be a versatile world if planned right offering a niche for everyone be they small or be they big.
! No serverwide FFA-PvP !
! No FPS-Controls !
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
But you cant blame the subgenre. Eve is probably good for people that like sci fi and space ships. I believe its a quality game. But Darkfall/MO are not exactly AAA games. And at least MO is very broken and unfinished... And FFA PvP games...
Personally I want something that is more like EQ pre luclin. But still a new game with some new modern ideas. And a very polished game with a lot of content (not on rails quest).
If a game is fun or not depends on much more than the subgenre. And if its broken, unfinished it will fail....
i agree.
I agree so much, though i will give it until Arche Age to redeem itself. If that fails then thats it I think for me. I will stick to co-op RPGs and local gaming, back to the tabletop, and leave the MMOs to the new generation of cash cows.
As much as I admire your post though, it won't help, people have been convinced this is the way it should be. As Morpheus says; you look around, what do you see? The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
It is called Arche Age.
keep an eye out for it
because all those games are low budget games, theres no AAA company that has 200 million dollars of developement money making a sandbox mmo. are sandbox players not allowed have the same quality and polish as themepark players? So your assumption is sort of naive. All the games you mentioned are indy titles that have a limited budget and do not have the developement dollars as a AAA company does. but as you say sandbox players should just play all those half finished low budget games, the reason sandbox games dont do well is because theres hardly any funding and most are broken its not because players dont like sandbox games.
I guess gamers have to open their eyes to the evolutionary nature of game design eventually. And when they do, some of them are angry.
Then we have the typical "F2P is change! I fear change!" argument, when in fact well-designed F2P is win-win for both developers and players.
Then we have the incorrect "WOW is McD's" argument. We're not talking about a McDs where I can spend more to go to a much better restaurant. We're talking about 5 equally-expensive high-class restaurants, and people showing a clear preference for one of those fancy restaurants in particular.
Personally I feel the genre has evolved away from utter madness. I looked at the punishing grindfests of the past and couldn't understand what possible reason I'd want to play them over mainstream games. Despite that I kept trying new ones (about 8 of em). Eventually, to use a D&D analogy, I found the DM who not only provided me much more interesting content ("You mean we're not endlessly grinding monsters this session!?") but also didn't kick me in my shins (hard) each time I screwed up ("Damn, just bought those steel shinguards too.") The rest is history (although this statement is always a bit odd; isn't it all history if I'm relating a story from my past?)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The orignal concept I saw from MMO's was to have an ongoing game (world) that would have ongoing content so you wouldnt have to play through the same crap twice.
An online world where you could create a character, and this character had choices in what he or she wanted to be, a place to make friends to join you in the experiences provided throughout this digital universe, whether it be combat, crafting or socialising.
Where the hell did that go?!
Certainly wasnt the flawed and badly designed/implemented Sandbox MMo's, not even the legacy grindfest of WoW (yes they add raids, i'd hardly call it interesting content, just another type of grind).
The Genre's stuck, the amount of money that is needed to create a MMO far suppasses any other genre, therefore new innovation is a HUGE risk for developers, we've seen the results of them getting it wrong.
So now devs are too scared to move away from WoW's successful architecture.
Truth is, sure there are people love WoW, but there are others looking for something else.
This genre is the only gaming genre that has soo much more potiential for change, innovation and diversity.
Tapping into a niche thats already taken buy a large competitor is pointless, its like opening a new burger bar on a small street that already has Burger King and McDonalds on. It doesnt matter how good ya burgers taste, your smack bang in the middle of two multi-national fast food giants!!!!
The real way for success to find a new niche of the market, buy creating one (INNOVATION), i.e. Head n Shoulders shampoo "helps reduces dandruff" whereas Pantene "nurishes the roots of ur hair with vitamins" - er its all just Shampoo !! But they've created different niches that both hold different yet substantial market segments compared to the Ordinary shampoo's out there.
I agree with the OP 100%, it's well thought out and written, thanks for sharing.
It seems like a million years ago when MMOs had it right and the future looked bright. So how did we get here, in this travesty of a "MMO" industry? The golden years were so promising and we all dreamed about how awesome MMOs would be in ten or twenty years. But now that we're here, many declining years later, the MMO industry has failed us. It's not even close to what it could have or should have been. Instead, it's a sad state of affairs, we have endless shallow, empty shells of so-called MMOs trying to pass themselves off as legit.
I for one refuse to put any more cash down on crappy titles. Fool me once...
I'll wait for games like D3 and ES5. They can take their crappy *cough* "MMO" titles and shove it. Just not gonna do it anymore.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I feel your pain OP. I cannot, nor will not play these WoW clones. That is why i'm currently playing and enjoying Darkfall.
These are now my prerequisites that must be met for me to play any future mmo:
Large, non-instanced world
Meaningful travel
Localized resources with some sort of local or regional banking
Open world pvp
Skill based system (can be with classes, but still skill based leveling)
No tab targeting
No floating numbers overhead
Housing system
Meaningful death penalty
Lots of guild/clan tools for warfare and guild customization in terms of emblems etc.
If faction based, must have minimum three factions
Intricate, very detailed crafting system
I'm picky that way.
I do know where Dagnor's Cauldron is and am having much more fun than I ever did in those games in the past. For me, the genre is moving in the right direction. Giving me the choice how I want to play be it quests, mob grind, dungeons, group, pvp... is definately the right way to go.
I say no way to just mob grinding, never again to just one way to play. Forget it, never going there again. I like choices and I have more of them than ever before when it comes to gameplay.
Venge Sunsoar
Eh? D&D-esque play was facilitated by capitalism - i.e., some people owned means of production and freely hired them to other people who freely made books with game rules, and ancillary products, that other people freely bought, and freely used to have fun with friends.
It's not really clear what your complaint is. It seems to be something like this:-
"I and people who think like me had a vision for the way the genre would go. We thought the entire genre, and all investment in that genre, should have gone in that direction. The way investment is going isn't in the direction we hoped it would go."
Well, fair enough, but it's going in the direction a whole bunch of other people want it to go - the people who are buying in droves what the capitalists are selling. Is your complaint, then, simply that you have better taste than them? Or just that people are missing out on a possibility they don't know about? If the latter, then that's a more general problem to do with the human condition. Suppose you are correct that the type of gameplay you want is better, by some reasonable measure; then, suppose people were better educated and more sophisticated and smarter, they would understand what you understand, and would want to buy it - and capitalism, i.e. private property in the means of production, would facilitate THAT.
But anyway, surely the picture isn't as gloomy as you suggest. While the genre as a whole might not be going the way you want, it's still possible for (what in this new context would be called) "niche" MMOs to serve the type of gameplay you want. Eminently possible. CCP did it for the type of gameplay they had a vision for. Likewise with Aventurine, FLS, Icarus Studios - they are all indie developers who have made their own versions of what they consider to be ideal gameplay, and have put their time and energy into it.
In a capitalist system, you are free to do the same: gird your loins, put a shitload of energy and time into it, persuade others to join in your cause, including people who control means of production, and you have a fighting chance to make it happen.
they are games! not oppression from a dictactor. I dont want to risk my future survial so I can spend my time not playing games but instead project management
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
i agree, mmo's now a days are just shit.
wow might of made it easy for the sheep, but it started before them.
you can blame SOE, they started the death of the genre. how so?
they took out the boats to get to different continents and replaced them with porting gnomes.
they put books in every single zone that you could click to get to plane of knowledge that had books to every single zone in it, along with every single trainer/crafter, EVERYTHING
they completely obliterated the commonland tunnels trading area when they put in the bazaar, which is the first auction house.
and thats a few of the many things SOE did that drove the glory that was EQ1 straight to hell
wow picked up what they started and took it further, believe me if blizzard hadnt of done it, soe would of.
(mod edit)
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
I wholeheartedly approve of all those changes you mention that Soe made Bingbongbros. Travel before than was just tedious and mind-numbing, not exciting at all, 20-30 minutes waiting for the boat and 30 minutes on the boat. No thanks, I want to play a game, not wait to play a game.
Waiding through all the screaming and banter in EC tunnel, hoping I might find what I want, not really paying attention to what I'm doing cause I'm looking at all the text flying by seeing if someone has what I want, than arguing with him on the price cause he is gauging me. No thanks, give me the bazaar any day, a few minutes into see if it's there or not and thats it.
A one stop place for training. Ultra convenient.
Yep I approve of it all.
Venge
and its players like you that made all the changes to the game and the changes that have made our genre a complete blur of mindless rehashing of the same shit.
people like the op and myself and the majority of all the players from that era were pissed at the changes.
the traveling the open trading, all those things are what brought the world to life, gave it spirit. bartering with real players was great, buying overpriced items from a afk player turned into an item shop not so much.
we wanted a virtual world, you want a game, they want shit tons of money and dont give a fuck how they get it.
console gamers want games not worlds. so they mutated mmo's into console games with multiplayer abilities.
no wonder every damn game that "AAA" companies make they are always trying to make a console platform version too.
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
OP enjoy what we have now, because new MMOs will be even worse. The decline of the genre is clear and fast.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
I think I know why this thread bothers me. Because it sounds like a bunch of cranky grandparents.
'Man, back in the day, we had REAL music, not this crappy rock and roll stuff' 'Jazz stuff' 'Hip hop stuff' 'Big band stuff' 'Operetta stuff'.
Or 'Back in the day, families were CLOSE, because we had to have fun together, not this fancy schmancy listening to the radio thing.' 'Watching TV thing' 'Internet thing'
How about the classic 'You know, when I was a kid, we didn't have these cell phones, they're ruining society, people talking on them instead of to the people next to you' 'People texting instead of talking to the person next to you'
'Back in the day, people knew how to write REAL letters to communicate with each other. Not this stupid phone call stuff' 'Phone calls are so much more personal than that computer mail stuff' 'We wrote REAL E-Mails. Not this subpar texting stuff.'
'Back in the day, we listened to albums, and they were so much better quality than CDs' 'CDs were so much better than MP3s'
I mean, seriously people.
The advance of technology, the march of capitalism, blah blah blah. Don't sound so bitter, it's unbecoming of you all. You know, I wouldn't even mind the whole 'I miss the way games used to be', if it wasn't paired up right next to 'Because modern day MMORPG fans have no taste and are retarded'.
Maybe people just don't want what you wanted. Maybe what you wanted is still offered, but it's just not getting as much attention as the new stuff.
I would rather serve a short stint in prison than be forced to subscribe to WoW, but I'm over it. Maybe I =do= like Rock & Roll more than I like Hip Hop.
So I like E-Mails and can't get a handle on this fancy texting speech.
Fine. Liking old things, fine. Wishing there was more old things, fine. Stop sounding so crotchety though, it's EMBARASSING. I feel like my peers are prematurely the old guy shaking his stick and yelling 'Get off my lawn, you darn new MMO kids!'
Can't we embrace and high five the awesomeness we once had, and point out what is awesome now (SURELY something is awesome now. If it's ALL crap, every single thing, then maybe it's not the games... maybe it's you...)? Can't we do it without sounding so... jealous and petty?
Seriously. Some of you people are acting like the gaming public was your girlfriend and you're mad she left you for WoW, when you were wishing she'd have a three-way with the old game of your choice. (In retrospect, that was a horrible analogy, and I stretched it out far too long)
Lighten up! It's nice looking at how wonderful things were 'back in the day', but admit things weren't perfect. Maybe the modern gaming trends abandoned some of what was great before, but they fixed things that weren't so great. Old style gaming would do a lot better if it would embrace what's improved as well as the past.
(... and if it would admit to itself that as of so far, it's a niche market. Maybe there is some SECRET HUGE UNTAPPED reserve of MMO players who would prefer everything to be like the first generation of MMO games, but I think if you look at the kind of people who play WoW, you'll realize that a lot of them are simply people who wouldn't have played MMOs before. WoW has reached a wider appeal market by designing a game that appeals to such. Don't be mad at developers and publishers for not believing in something that so far as I can tell, is only hearsay and rumor. Why would they want to sink hundreds of millions of dollars into a MAYBE?)
I think it's players like me that have made these games bigger, better, with more options, more choice, more polish and just more games than ever before. We have so many more choices than we did before. There is so many more games, and in each game there are so many different ways to play. IMO this is a good thing. While players like yourself are stagnating the genre, trying to regress it to places we have allready been and rejected as sub-par.
I don't think the majority of players from that era are pissed. I think the majority of people are embracing it because they do have more choices, they get to play how they want to whatever way that is. Want to grind, go for it, quest go for it, pvp go for it, solo go for it, group go for it... These games offer far far far more than the old games dids. I think there are actually only a small number of people like you that are irritated. The rest are enjoying the far superiour games.
EQ was mob grind or nothing. That was it. WoW offers far more.
Travelling the open road didn't bring the world to life. Travellign was always go from point A to B as fast as you can. Anyone remember the Karanas - there were a few interesting parts. But sheesh 30 minute travel across barren grasslands, what a waste of my time.
People in general want entertainment be it console or pc, they want to play the game. Not wait to play the game. These games are more like worlds IMO than ever before because just like the world they offer choices.
And of course there are hundreds of games to choose from. Don't like one, choose another, there is one there that will suit your tastes I can almost guarantee that.
Venge
edit - the rehasing of old ideas is simply because there are now hundreds of games. New and original ideas are easy for a genre that only has 1 or 2 options. But when there are hundreds, then truely original ideas are few and far between. The closer you are to the limit (whatever that limit will be) the smaller the changes will be.
Though that quote can go towards some truisms in life I think it's very presumptuous to assume that what you label as "good and true" is the only thing that's good and true.
Seriously, I'd love to take a look into some of your lives and point out the things that completely fly in the face of what is being touted as being "good and true".
I'd love to look at the books, music, movies, etc and really see how truly different tastes really are.
I highly suspect that there is a lot of mundanity to be had and a great deal of love for that mundanity.
In any case, as someone else said, there are sandbox games. People need to play and support them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
How can you claim the 'majority' of players from 'that era' wanted that when the current crop of games is so insanely popular? Part of that is the natural growth of the genre. The rest is that the games are what the majority actually wants.
I was from 'that era', and intentionally avoided subscribing past the first month in all the MMORPGs I tried because they were terrible games.
The majority wants a fun game first and foremost. If it's also more world-like (while still being fun) so much the better. But if the game itself isn't fun, people aren't going to show up to play. And that's exactly what happened for early MMORPGs.
Calling it a "console gamer" thing is entirely inaccurate. While I dabble in console games, I am predominantly a PC gamer. When MMORPGs were coming about, I was too busy with genuinely fun games like System Shock 2, Starcraft, AOE2, RTCW, Quake 3, and NOLF to bother with the grindfests of non-gameplay that early MMORPGs were. (not to insult the great groundwork early devs laid, but I think even they would agree that the experiences they offered were extremely diluted gameplay for the day and age they were created in.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Are they really? Only WoW is popular... Of course there are subgenres. Not everyone think WoW or games like WoW are the best possible MMO:s.
The players from that era are a minority now. New people that would like the same type of game cant find one... Thats the problem. Its ok to like WoW. And some would be able to enjoy both WoW and a more hardcore game based on exploring a virtual world. Without games we will not get new players that prefer this subgenre. At the moment its catch 22...
But there is huge potential for new players. A new game should not be less modern. It should also evolve and be different compared to the older games. But evolve in a different way compared to WoW. And keep what was best in the old games.
There is hope. And it is possible. All we need is one good game. A true AAA -game published by one of the big companies.
Then others will follow....New young players will recognize that its fun. A lot of veteran players and potential new players are waiting.
And fun is subjective. Of course the majority wants a fun game. But there will be a lot of different opinions... They will not all want the same game.
man the ammount of threads here that pretty much amount to
"Things were better in the good old days!"
and
"Kids these days!!!"
I'm just waiting for the
"Get off my damn lawn you whippersnappers!!!" thread.
I know, it's embarassing, right? I didn't think I'd have to worry about my peers acting like that until I was a good 20-30 years older.
I shouldn't have to put up with this unless I'm collecting retirement as a compensation.
You know that's a great idea... lets turn FPS into shit so people that woulnd't play FPS can play them now.
Same with RTS.
And race games.
And flight simulator games.
Let's turn them into utter crap so new players that have no fucking idea how to play them can play them!
So awsome idea !!!!!!
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)