Originally posted by bingbongbros Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I wholeheartedly approve of all those changes you mention that Soe made Bingbongbros. Travel before than was just tedious and mind-numbing, not exciting at all, 20-30 minutes waiting for the boat and 30 minutes on the boat. No thanks, I want to play a game, not wait to play a game. Waiding through all the screaming and banter in EC tunnel, hoping I might find what I want, not really paying attention to what I'm doing cause I'm looking at all the text flying by seeing if someone has what I want, than arguing with him on the price cause he is gauging me. No thanks, give me the bazaar any day, a few minutes into see if it's there or not and thats it. A one stop place for training. Ultra convenient. Yep I approve of it all. Venge
and its players like you that made all the changes to the game and the changes that have made our genre a complete blur of mindless rehashing of the same shit. people like the op and myself and the majority of all the players from that era were pissed at the changes. the traveling the open trading, all those things are what brought the world to life, gave it spirit. bartering with real players was great, buying overpriced items from a afk player turned into an item shop not so much. we wanted a virtual world, you want a game, they want shit tons of money and dont give a fuck how they get it. console gamers want games not worlds. so they mutated mmo's into console games with multiplayer abilities. no wonder every damn game that "AAA" companies make they are always trying to make a console platform version too.
The players did not rewrite the game. The developer did. They followed the money to the people who were willing and able to pay for what they wanted.
Developers picked them over you for the simple reason that they were more profitable for the developers to give products to. The players didn't do anything other than tell the developers what they wanted.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You know that's a great idea... lets turn FPS into shit so people that woulnd't play FPS can play them now.
Same with RTS.
And race games.
And flight simulator games.
Let's turn them into utter crap so new players that have no fucking idea how to play them can play them!
So awsome idea !!!!!!
The old style MMOs still exist. Why aren't you playing them?
You know, modern OSes use graphics and mice to allow more people access to computers.
Doesn't mean you can't install Linux. What's wrong with letting more people experience something? Are you mad because these other people get to enjoy a version of what you're enjoying?
I bet you're one of those people who got mad when you learned that they started letting the common folk read. I mean, what business does somebody who isn't a priest or scribe have reading? They're just going to degrade it with their common works and literature, you know.
You know that's a great idea... lets turn FPS into shit so people that woulnd't play FPS can play them now.
Same with RTS.
And race games.
And flight simulator games.
Let's turn them into utter crap so new players that have no fucking idea how to play them can play them!
So awsome idea !!!!!!
The old style MMOs still exist. Why aren't you playing them?
No they don't. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, so please stop talking.
Modern MMos just keep recycling the same ideas with fewer and fewer features and a fresh coat of paint. In the old days, there were 4-5 vastly different MMOs all thriving and doing well. Now we live in a market of release a game, watch it slowly die, thrive off box sales. And all the games are the same quest grinding hand holding simple no risk vs reward time sinks.
No they don't. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, so please stop talking.
Modern MMos just keep recycling the same ideas with fewer and fewer features and a fresh coat of paint. In the old days, there were 4-5 vastly different MMOs all thriving and doing well. Now we live in a market of release a game, watch it slowly die, thrive off box sales. And all the games are the same quest grinding hand holding simple no risk vs reward time sinks.
Asheron's Call is still going.
So is Everquest.
So is Ultima Online.
So is Anarchy Online.
So is Meridian 59
So is DAoC
What about EVE? Ryzom? Vanguard? Perpetuum? Darkfall? MO? Fallen Earth? Xyson? Hearth & Home? Lineage?
Perhaps some of those aren't to your taste, or some of those don't fit your requirements for 'Sufficiently like old games', but they all fail? They're all cookie cutter quest-grinding hand-holding no-risk-vs-reward games?
Perhaps... you are unfamiliar with Google? It's a wonderful tool. I use it to find things when I am not sure where they are. If you'd like, I could list more games for you. I would love to be helpful, since you are unware of the presence of many old-style games... or just plain old games... that still exist.
The old style MMOs still exist. Why aren't you playing them?
No they don't. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, so please stop talking.
Modern MMos just keep recycling the same ideas with fewer and fewer features and a fresh coat of paint. In the old days, there were 4-5 vastly different MMOs all thriving and doing well. Now we live in a market of release a game, watch it slowly die, thrive off box sales. And all the games are the same quest grinding hand holding simple no risk vs reward time sinks.
I don't know if this is actually true that old style MMO's aren't around anymore: there's quite a number of them still around, from UO to a Vanguard to DAoC to other MMO's that are more challenging or non-themepark in their design (Darkfall, Ryzom for example).
EQ even gets a new 'progression server' mid February that opens with how the game was at 1999 (with slightly updated graphics), to implement each expansion every few months only after a majority player vote agrees with it.
It sounds interesting enough for former EQ players to give it a try, I know I and friends who played EQ as well are considering it.
So for those that like it, they're still around, the oldstyle MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
No they don't. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, so please stop talking.
Modern MMos just keep recycling the same ideas with fewer and fewer features and a fresh coat of paint. In the old days, there were 4-5 vastly different MMOs all thriving and doing well. Now we live in a market of release a game, watch it slowly die, thrive off box sales. And all the games are the same quest grinding hand holding simple no risk vs reward time sinks.
Asheron's Call is still going.
So is Everquest.
So is Ultima Online.
So is Anarchy Online.
So is Meridian 59
So is DAoC
What about EVE? Ryzom? Vanguard? Perpetuum? Darkfall? MO? Fallen Earth? Xyson? Hearth & Home? Lineage?
Thank you very much for proving my point that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, with your own words, far better than I could ever have. Your snarky "Oh you poor trolly elitist" comments really make you come off as ignorant. With the exception of maybe Meridian 59, none of those games you listed are "still going" as classic oldschool MMORPGs. People stopped playing most of them for a reason, and that reason is because the devs changed the games and alienated their core player base. As for The ones you listed at the bottom, the majority of THOSE aren't even old style MMORPGs, or are no longer supported, or have no support to begin with. So kindly take your ignorance elsewhere.
The old style MMOs still exist. Why aren't you playing them?
No they don't. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, so please stop talking.
Modern MMos just keep recycling the same ideas with fewer and fewer features and a fresh coat of paint. In the old days, there were 4-5 vastly different MMOs all thriving and doing well. Now we live in a market of release a game, watch it slowly die, thrive off box sales. And all the games are the same quest grinding hand holding simple no risk vs reward time sinks.
So for those that like it, they're still around, the oldstyle MMO's.
For someone who, by the very title of their user name, claims to know a bit about MMOs.. you don't know much about MMOs. There's a reason those old style MMOs aren't played by MMO veterans anymore, they've changed for the worse, to try to mimic WoW or draw in fresh players, thus alienating their player base and failing to gain a new following. Most of the companies behind them have moved on to make new modern MMOs that failed (WAR). So please, don't tell me the MMOs are still around unless you've somehow invented a time machine. Thanks.
For someone who, by the very title of their user name, claims to know a bit about MMOs.. you don't know much about MMOs. There's a reason those old style MMOs aren't played by MMO veterans anymore, they've changed for the worse, to try to mimic WoW or draw in fresh players, thus alienating their player base and failing to gain a new following. Most of the companies behind them have moved on to make new modern MMOs that failed (WAR). So please, don't tell me the MMOs are still around unless you've somehow invented a time machine. Thanks.
Heh, don't tell me to stop telling oldstyle MMO's are still around unless you've played the whole list I mentioned recently, as in within the last year or 2. You may have grown bitter with the MMO genre, but that doesn't make you right, it looks more like it has colored your view.
Even if some of those old MMORPG's have changed, a number of those on the list resemble far more the old school or sandbox style of MMORPG's than that they resemble the themepark-style of MMO's. I suggest you play some of them extensively for more than 1 month if you don't believe me.
Besides that, you ignore the fact that you can play 'EQ vanilla' all you like from mid February onwards, since a server in 'EQ vanilla' state will open up then.
Personally, I think it's better to give some of those non-themepark, oldschool-similar MMO's a try than to keep complaining on forums how in 'the old days everything was better', but that's me
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
For someone who, by the very title of their user name, claims to know a bit about MMOs.. you don't know much about MMOs. There's a reason those old style MMOs aren't played by MMO veterans anymore, they've changed for the worse, to try to mimic WoW or draw in fresh players, thus alienating their player base and failing to gain a new following. Most of the companies behind them have moved on to make new modern MMOs that failed (WAR). So please, don't tell me the MMOs are still around unless you've somehow invented a time machine. Thanks.
Heh, don't tell me to stop telling oldstyle MMO's are still around unless you've played the whole list I mentioned recently, as in within the last year or 2. You may have grown bitter with the MMO genre, but that doesn't make you right, it looks more like it has colored your view.
Even if some of those old MMORPG's have changed, a number of those on the list resemble far more the old school or sandbox style of MMORPG's than that they resemble the themepark-style of MMO's. I suggest you play some of them extensively for more than 1 month if you don't believe me.
Besides that, you ignore the fact that you can play 'EQ vanilla' all you like from mid February onwards, since a server in 'EQ vanilla' state will open up then.
Personally, I think it's better to give some of those non-themepark, oldschool-similar MMO's a try than to keep complaining on forums how in 'the old days everything was better', but that's me
Of course they represent more old school style than the modern ones. Some have changed entirely (SWG) but most of them have changed enough to kill their initial magic. Even so some are still much closer to true MMOs than modern ones.
Problem is this : No one plays them anymore because- the people that would play them are too frustrated by the changes and just want their old game back, they don't want to be reminded of how changed everything is- and because the developers aren't really working on them anymore. They're releasing lazy new content patches now and then, but no substanial work. So no, I have played the majority of those games, there's no point in getting into them now. Their time is passed. The developers have moved on, the players have moved on. I play MMOs for the social atmosphere, not to run solo WoW styled quests in a once great, now dead MMORPG.
I have given them a try. They are dead. If they weren't dead, all of us veteran gamers would be playing, would we not? And in fact I AM going to play on the EQ progression server.
Thank you very much for proving my point that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, with your own words, far better than I could ever have. Your snarky "Oh you poor trolly elitist" comments really make you come off as ignorant. With the exception of maybe Meridian 59, none of those games you listed are "still going" as classic oldschool MMORPGs. People stopped playing most of them for a reason, and that reason is because the devs changed the games and alienated their core player base. As for The ones you listed at the bottom, the majority of THOSE aren't even old style MMORPGs, or are no longer supported, or have no support to begin with. So kindly take your ignorance elsewhere.
The term 'old style MMORPG' is so cheerily, thoroughly, amazingly vague, that it's hard to know just what a person means when they say it. Some people will say one thing, some people will say another. I can't read your mind, you know, and I didn't know exactly what mystical, unspoken quality you were referring to.. I just went with a shotgun approach, and hey-yo! You admitted Meridian 59 (maybe).
Not to mention there's the Everquest time-lock progression server coming up soon that will LITERALLY be the old Everquest, except for a small improvement in graphics and of course, different players.
It would have been a lot more helpful if you could have broken down why each and every game I mentioned is disqualified. I mean, I don't know why you dislike certain ones! Do you dislike Xsyon because the graphics are too good? Perhaps it's because in the OLD days, nobody would have ever put an X next to an S? Is it too sandbox for you? Not enough?
Your blanket statements of 'Not good enough!' aren't really very constructive, you know. Even if there's just ONE game that is like old school games (What's wrong with EVE?), then that would actually end up being incredibly ideal.
All the people who want that feel of game should flock towards that, abandoning WoW in droves and driving them to penury, while swelling the subscription numbers of ye-olde-school-game until only the stupidest of developers could fail to see that in fact, making a game finely tuned to the retro tastes of the past is the only way to make money.
(PS. Constant cries of 'Hurderp, you so ignorant' don't really make you any more endearing. )
Thank you very much for proving my point that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, with your own words, far better than I could ever have. Your snarky "Oh you poor trolly elitist" comments really make you come off as ignorant. With the exception of maybe Meridian 59, none of those games you listed are "still going" as classic oldschool MMORPGs. People stopped playing most of them for a reason, and that reason is because the devs changed the games and alienated their core player base. As for The ones you listed at the bottom, the majority of THOSE aren't even old style MMORPGs, or are no longer supported, or have no support to begin with. So kindly take your ignorance elsewhere.
The term 'old style MMORPG' is so cheerily, thoroughly, amazingly vague, that it's hard to know just what a person means when they say it. Some people will say one thing, some people will say another. I can't read your mind, you know, and I didn't know exactly what mystical, unspoken quality you were referring to.. I just went with a shotgun approach, and hey-yo! You admitted Meridian 59 (maybe).
Not to mention there's the Everquest time-lock progression server coming up soon that will LITERALLY be the old Everquest, except for a small improvement in graphics and of course, different players.
It would have been a lot more helpful if you could have broken down why each and every game I mentioned is disqualified. I mean, I don't know why you dislike certain ones! Do you dislike Xsyon because the graphics are too good? Perhaps it's because in the OLD days, nobody would have ever put an X next to an S? Is it too sandbox for you? Not enough? X Xsyon is not even out yet, and from the looks of it it needs quite a lot of time to mature to a playable state.
Your blanket statements of 'Not good enough!' aren't really very constructive, you know. Even if there's just ONE game that is like old school games (What's wrong with EVE?), then that would actually end up being incredibly ideal. Eve is like Oldschool MMOs only in the sense that it isn't mind numbingly simple. The actual game mechanics are entirely unique to itself, it's not necessarily the type of game people are talking about when they're speaking of the MMO Golden Age.
All the people who want that feel of game should flock towards that, abandoning WoW in droves and driving them to penury, while swelling the subscription numbers of ye-olde-school-game until only the stupidest of developers could fail to see that in fact, making a game finely tuned to the retro tastes of the past is the only way to make money. Yet most WoW clones have failed in an incredible way. The only WoW style MMO to do well and grow is... WoW. The rest have slowly bled out over time. (forcing them to go F2P). Also, while this is a buisness, I guess you're saying that devs should go wherever the dollar is. So you're in favor of developers playing is safe, releasing the 9th Call of Duty game that plays like all the rest, rather than delivering an immersive or impressive experience? I think I see the problem now.
(PS. Constant cries of 'Hurderp, you so ignorant' don't really make you any more endearing. )
Xsyon is not even out yet, and from the looks of it it needs quite a lot of time to mature to a playable state.
Eve is like Oldschool MMOs only in the sense that it isn't mind numbingly simple. The actual game mechanics are entirely unique to itself, it's not necessarily the type of game people are talking about when they're speaking of the MMO Golden Age.
Yet most WoW clones have failed in an incredible way. The only WoW style MMO to do well and grow is... WoW. The rest have slowly bled out over time. (forcing them to go F2P). Also, while this is a buisness, I guess you're saying that devs should go wherever the dollar is. So you're in favor of developers playing is safe, releasing the 9th Call of Duty game that plays like all the rest, rather than delivering an immersive or impressive experience? I think I see the problem now.
1. It's out very soon! ... and I think this proves my point that while people ask for an old style game, that's secondary to it being well polished. Except that's a vicious cycle, with games being underfunded because people won't play them because they're underfunded.
2. Yes. The game mechanics are unique. That's bad how? I thought you wanted more unique, less clone-oriented games. II mentioned EVE as having a certain feel of old style games. Like I said, it's an elusive concept.
3. I wouldn't call LotRO a failure. Sure, it went F2P, but that's because it makes them even MORE money. So that's a success, segued into an even more awesome success, right? They've made a considerable profit, and since moving to F2P, the profit has only gotten bigger. That is only a failure if you define failure as 'Not doing as well as WoW'. There are other games that made a profit as well.
4. I'm not in favor of developers playing it safe, I'm a realist. I am saying that is the behavior they display. The fact that you confuse 'realist who recognizes how companies work' and 'person who idealizes that behavior as optimal' is probably the problem you're having with me. Well, part of it.
My attitude is an attitude whereupon I try and embrace the reality of the market. I hug it. I enfold it in my arms. It is not my friend, but I understand it, like the dearest of enemies. I realize why things go the way they do. Do they go the way I want? Not really. I don't like WoW. The only thing worse is all the subpar WoW clones. Understanding WHY these clones exist does not mean I want to play them.
We're both blaming people for the collapse of old school gaming, but we're just going at it from a different angle. You are blaming the new people and the companies. I am blaming the old people. Why should the new people have the exact tastes of the old people? Why should the companies follow money that there is not observable, quantifiable proof that is there?
Do not complain because the top 50 radio station plays insufficient jazz. Support jazz where you can... even things that are semi-jazz like. Shun and abhor the non-jazz. Maybe learn the saxaphone, play a little yourself. Get together the old band.
Stop yelling at the hip-hop kids. Also, stop yelling at the jazz fans who try telling you to stop yelling at the hip-hop kids.
Problem is this : No one plays them anymore because- the people that would play them are too frustrated by the changes and just want their old game back, they don't want to be reminded of how changed everything is- and because the developers aren't really working on them anymore. They're releasing lazy new content patches now and then, but no substanial work. So no, I have played the majority of those games, there's no point in getting into them now. Their time is passed. The developers have moved on, the players have moved on. I play MMOs for the social atmosphere, not to run solo WoW styled quests in a once great, now dead MMORPG.
I have given them a try. They are dead. If they weren't dead, all of us veteran gamers would be playing, would we not? And in fact I AM going to play on the EQ progression server.
That's true, the games themselves may in some cases still be 'oldstyle' enough, but what made those MMORPG's great was also the community and overall atmosphere that you could sense while playing, and that atmosphere is made by players.
It's a shame that most of those oldstyle MMO's don't have the thriving community anymore that they deserve. It's a shame that Vanguard has been abandoned by its owning company, with a few years of solid upgrading and expanding and with a healthy population it could've been great. I know I would still be playing Vanguard if I knew it got the attention of the devs it deserved and if the population was healthy in numbers.
And the same applies to SWG, which could have been great if they had stuck to their vision instead of gutting its heart and trying to 'wowify' the gameplay.
I'm interested enough to give the EQ progression server a try, if the population is active and at least medium, which it looks like it can reach easily, then that's good enough for me (as an MMORPG on the side)
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree with the OP. A genre that was holding such promise has become like junkfood of restaurants where a shallow game that has combat, and only combat, can score 8 in sites like this.
And yet EQ was nothing but combat. You couldn't even get materials for crafting without combat.
And modern games have many different types of combat, many different quests, ample room for solo and group, and good crafting. Sounds like modern games have more options.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
And yet EQ was nothing but combat. You couldn't even get materials for crafting without combat.
And modern games have many different types of combat, many different quests, ample room for solo and group, and good crafting. Sounds like modern games have more options.
Venge
Modern games are easy, casual, quick to level, no death penalties which means there is little risk in doing anything. A 8 year old can be successful at WoW, which speaks volume for the mental capabilities required to play those.
I didnt play EQ much, as it was a a pretty linear game, but I do recall that it was much harder and you needed to be social and form teams to get anywhere. Also the world was huge, had lots of starting zones and lots of interesting classes and skills. It felt like a virtual world and not just a small themepark.
I think the overlying problem is that MMO's do not translate well with real pen and paper roleplaying games. That is the problem I see. When I pen and paper roleplay so much more of an telling story can happen during a session of play than even can happen in a month of playing MMO's. It doesn't really matter which MMO you put to example either. Most of my friends wish that MMO's could closer relate to their pen and paper influences. One example of how MMO's don't translate well with real roleplaying is dark area game play. In almost all MMO's they don't require the player to even carry torches, lamps, or even cast magic to light the night, as most MMO's don't even try to make night close to whats real is. In a pen and paper adventure you almost always are forced to plan for the night.
Point is I could go on and on about how MMO's have gone away from the core of their origins. Heck even I can sorta see why some things should be automated or done away with for convenience. I played WoW for 5 years and I can say I have more memories of my mishaps and deaths in my 1 and a half years in EQ prior. Only things I can remember about WoW is when I made HighWarlord. And how cool a few boss fights where. But, one thing my friends and I have is less stories of our travels in WoW, or DAoC, or City of Heroes, or Aion. The only reason I can see for having less stories is there is definelty less at stake in the newer MMO's. This is universal. Less at stake is becoming more and more the tune of todays MMO's.
Don't hear me wrong I'm not one of those SM types that wants to go back to the punishing days of death causing the loss of a whole week of exp grinding, I am just stating the obviouse. When there is less at stake you can tread ahead without fear and so in the stories to be told of high adventure are less telling. Things like 3rd person view, night not being dark, minmax formulas on making classes, number floating over npcs heads of damage totals, maps with GPS, and just the simple fact that nowdays the design these mmo's so players can't get lost. All these things are NOT what happens when you roleplay.
I agree, its madness. When Mythic decided to do what they did to Warhammer, and Gamesworkshop just stood by and let them just shows that hopes are thin for us out there yearning to get a good MMO that translates well with PnP roleplay. These clowns somehow took 2nd edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay PnP precentile skill based game and turned it into a level based quest grinder akin to WoW. Sad, truely sad I tell you. I have all the Warhammer 1st edition and 2nd edition pnp RP books and Warhammer 2nd Ed. I feel is one of the best RP systems of any other roleplaying game out there. What Mythic did to it is just silly.
I can't truly say what the answer is to the problem we have today as I know its is a loftly task to put together an MMO. I do know what I like though today in gaming and its not the rehashings of quest bangs over NPC's heads. The themepark MMO's are dominate today and I just hope some developer out there will break the mold. God knows there are those that had their chance and didn't take it. (MYTHIC) Heck I even like to PvP alot and one thing to do not do when PnP RPing is fight the players you are playing with. So there are even things in MMO's I like that to jive to real roleplaying. Sorry for the short novel but I had alot on my chest.
An 8 year old could be successfull in the old games as well. While WoW can be easy, it is also much more challenging in some ways than the old ones, very very few people have beat the end bosses yet, that tells me there is some challenge to it.
WoW gives you the ability to play the way you want easy or hard. If most people play easy that doesn't mean the game is easy, it means that they chose to play it easy.
Old games were easy. There was nothing complicated or hard about EQ, DAOC, or any of the others that anyone with an IQ over 70 coudln't figure out in an hour or two.
It wasn't any harder at all. Just longer. No you didn't need to form teams to get anyway. Half the classes could solo to cap quite easily, and did.
And again there are raids in WoW that are just as hard, AV's in CoH that take hours to beat, bosses in Vanguard that are extremely difficulty. It isn't any harder or easier, what modern games do give you is a choice on how you choose to play. How you choose to play says more about you.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
since i missed most of this debate ill just throw what caught my eye in the mix.
i think it was meowhead or whoever that said if you want an oldstyle mmo go play one, and listed eq1, daoc, uo, and some others.
its true they are still around, but all of those games in their current state are bastards of what they used to be, and what the players who remember their glory days know. from all the updates and expansions the companies have made, especially since WoW became a god, they have ruined their games.
and thats exactly why eq1 is opening a time locked progression server on the 15th. now a days people like myself, and guessing by the overwhelming backlash, a very few people from those days are happy.
the majority back then is now a vast minority.
personally i cant stand quest grinder, faction grinder, gear grinder, dungeon grinder, instanced, insta travel games. that why wow has always been a bad taste in my mouth.
so far nothing has been able to please me for more then a few weeks. i haven't sub'd to a mmo for more then a month since 2002.
but Rift right now in beta events has made me happy. i can skip quests completely and just grind mobs like i did back then. and craft my own stuff.
but this is a never ending debate, like politics, there are always different views with different valid reasons. but neither side will ever give up. human nature i guess...
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
You can copy me, I'll copy you , we can dumb it down together and make money. Forget quality because that is too much work for us. I want the the easy jobs with easy money and I'l let the others struggle with innovation because again, that will take too much effort from me. Sounds about right to me.
You can copy me, I'll copy you , we can dumb it down together and make money. Forget quality because that is too much work for us. I want the the easy jobs with easy money and I'l let the others struggle with innovation because again, that will take too much effort from me. Sounds about right to me.
Lots of shouting about innovation but very few actual shouters unfortunately means that innovating projects will struggle for money and direction.
To put you into perspective. Who would not play UO if somebody revamped the game and changed nothing from its mechanics. Zero change, zero innovation. Just upgrade the game into today's graphics environment.
An 8 year old could be successfull in the old games as well. While WoW can be easy, it is also much more challenging in some ways than the old ones, very very few people have beat the end bosses yet, that tells me there is some challenge to it.
WoW gives you the ability to play the way you want easy or hard. If most people play easy that doesn't mean the game is easy, it means that they chose to play it easy.
Old games were easy. There was nothing complicated or hard about EQ, DAOC, or any of the others that anyone with an IQ over 70 coudln't figure out in an hour or two.
It wasn't any harder at all. Just longer. No you didn't need to form teams to get anyway. Half the classes could solo to cap quite easily, and did.
And again there are raids in WoW that are just as hard, AV's in CoH that take hours to beat, bosses in Vanguard that are extremely difficulty. It isn't any harder or easier, what modern games do give you is a choice on how you choose to play. How you choose to play says more about you.
Venge
Nonsense. You need social skills and better understanding of your spells, environment etc to be successful to games like UO, Asherons Call, Everquest etc (back when they were in their primes, not now). There is noone hand holding you as it is in WoW with quest markers, next to zero death penalty and skills that takes no brain to use.
Your statement that they were easy is taken completely out of the air and you shows that you probably didnt even play those games when they were released.
Modern games do have inflated bosses with huge stats but overall the game is easy. They are linear, you have little choice on where to go, if you make a misstake and die you can do it over and over again because there is no risk involved.
An 8 year old could be successfull in the old games as well. While WoW can be easy, it is also much more challenging in some ways than the old ones, very very few people have beat the end bosses yet, that tells me there is some challenge to it. WoW gives you the ability to play the way you want easy or hard. If most people play easy that doesn't mean the game is easy, it means that they chose to play it easy. Old games were easy. There was nothing complicated or hard about EQ, DAOC, or any of the others that anyone with an IQ over 70 coudln't figure out in an hour or two. It wasn't any harder at all. Just longer. No you didn't need to form teams to get anyway. Half the classes could solo to cap quite easily, and did. And again there are raids in WoW that are just as hard, AV's in CoH that take hours to beat, bosses in Vanguard that are extremely difficulty. It isn't any harder or easier, what modern games do give you is a choice on how you choose to play. How you choose to play says more about you. Venge
Nonsense. You need social skills and better understanding of your spells, environment etc to be successful to games like UO, Asherons Call, Everquest etc (back when they were in their primes, not now). There is noone hand holding you as it is in WoW with quest markers, next to zero death penalty and skills that takes no brain to use.
Your statement that they were easy is taken completely out of the air and you shows that you probably didnt even play those games when they were released.
Modern games do have inflated bosses with huge stats but overall the game is easy. They are linear, you have little choice on where to go, if you make a misstake and die you can do it over and over again because there is no risk involved.
True, I remember in eq1 before velious it took me a week or two to do the quest for the ghoulbane sword. There was no quest guide and no icons, no arrows, nothing. I only had the hints that the npc told me in chat. I had to put the pieces together myself. After I finished it I felt so proud and accomplished.
Now I just clcik thru all the text as fast as I can, then follow the arrows and not once do I have to rread or think.
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
True, I remember in eq1 before velious it took me a week or two to do the quest for the ghoulbane sword. There was no quest guide and no icons, no arrows, nothing. I only had the hints that the npc told me in chat. I had to put the pieces together myself. After I finished it I felt so proud and accomplished. Now I just clcik thru all the text as fast as I can, then follow the arrows and not once do I have to rread or think.
Thanks to the magic of the internet, faqs and wiki sites, even the most complex of quest chains is reduced to an alt-tab and a quick search term.
I actually find the reduction of games to dry, easily accessed facts depressing, because it takes away the feeling of being special when you discover something, because you're right there with 800 people who did it the easy way.
Still, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Whether there's arrows in an MMO or not nowadays would pretty much be the difference between needing to do a quick web lookup, and not. That's about it.
Comments
I guess your defintion of crap is different than hers. Personally I'm with her.
Venge
people like the op and myself and the majority of all the players from that era were pissed at the changes.
the traveling the open trading, all those things are what brought the world to life, gave it spirit. bartering with real players was great, buying overpriced items from a afk player turned into an item shop not so much.
we wanted a virtual world, you want a game, they want shit tons of money and dont give a fuck how they get it.
console gamers want games not worlds. so they mutated mmo's into console games with multiplayer abilities.
no wonder every damn game that "AAA" companies make they are always trying to make a console platform version too.
The players did not rewrite the game. The developer did. They followed the money to the people who were willing and able to pay for what they wanted.
Developers picked them over you for the simple reason that they were more profitable for the developers to give products to. The players didn't do anything other than tell the developers what they wanted.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The old style MMOs still exist. Why aren't you playing them?
You know, modern OSes use graphics and mice to allow more people access to computers.
Doesn't mean you can't install Linux. What's wrong with letting more people experience something? Are you mad because these other people get to enjoy a version of what you're enjoying?
I bet you're one of those people who got mad when you learned that they started letting the common folk read. I mean, what business does somebody who isn't a priest or scribe have reading? They're just going to degrade it with their common works and literature, you know.
Asheron's Call is still going.
So is Everquest.
So is Ultima Online.
So is Anarchy Online.
So is Meridian 59
So is DAoC
What about EVE? Ryzom? Vanguard? Perpetuum? Darkfall? MO? Fallen Earth? Xyson? Hearth & Home? Lineage?
Perhaps some of those aren't to your taste, or some of those don't fit your requirements for 'Sufficiently like old games', but they all fail? They're all cookie cutter quest-grinding hand-holding no-risk-vs-reward games?
Perhaps... you are unfamiliar with Google? It's a wonderful tool. I use it to find things when I am not sure where they are. If you'd like, I could list more games for you. I would love to be helpful, since you are unware of the presence of many old-style games... or just plain old games... that still exist.
I don't know if this is actually true that old style MMO's aren't around anymore: there's quite a number of them still around, from UO to a Vanguard to DAoC to other MMO's that are more challenging or non-themepark in their design (Darkfall, Ryzom for example).
EQ even gets a new 'progression server' mid February that opens with how the game was at 1999 (with slightly updated graphics), to implement each expansion every few months only after a majority player vote agrees with it.
It sounds interesting enough for former EQ players to give it a try, I know I and friends who played EQ as well are considering it.
So for those that like it, they're still around, the oldstyle MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
For someone who, by the very title of their user name, claims to know a bit about MMOs.. you don't know much about MMOs. There's a reason those old style MMOs aren't played by MMO veterans anymore, they've changed for the worse, to try to mimic WoW or draw in fresh players, thus alienating their player base and failing to gain a new following. Most of the companies behind them have moved on to make new modern MMOs that failed (WAR). So please, don't tell me the MMOs are still around unless you've somehow invented a time machine. Thanks.
Heh, don't tell me to stop telling oldstyle MMO's are still around unless you've played the whole list I mentioned recently, as in within the last year or 2. You may have grown bitter with the MMO genre, but that doesn't make you right, it looks more like it has colored your view.
Even if some of those old MMORPG's have changed, a number of those on the list resemble far more the old school or sandbox style of MMORPG's than that they resemble the themepark-style of MMO's. I suggest you play some of them extensively for more than 1 month if you don't believe me.
Besides that, you ignore the fact that you can play 'EQ vanilla' all you like from mid February onwards, since a server in 'EQ vanilla' state will open up then.
Personally, I think it's better to give some of those non-themepark, oldschool-similar MMO's a try than to keep complaining on forums how in 'the old days everything was better', but that's me
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Of course they represent more old school style than the modern ones. Some have changed entirely (SWG) but most of them have changed enough to kill their initial magic. Even so some are still much closer to true MMOs than modern ones.
Problem is this : No one plays them anymore because- the people that would play them are too frustrated by the changes and just want their old game back, they don't want to be reminded of how changed everything is- and because the developers aren't really working on them anymore. They're releasing lazy new content patches now and then, but no substanial work. So no, I have played the majority of those games, there's no point in getting into them now. Their time is passed. The developers have moved on, the players have moved on. I play MMOs for the social atmosphere, not to run solo WoW styled quests in a once great, now dead MMORPG.
I have given them a try. They are dead. If they weren't dead, all of us veteran gamers would be playing, would we not? And in fact I AM going to play on the EQ progression server.
The term 'old style MMORPG' is so cheerily, thoroughly, amazingly vague, that it's hard to know just what a person means when they say it. Some people will say one thing, some people will say another. I can't read your mind, you know, and I didn't know exactly what mystical, unspoken quality you were referring to.. I just went with a shotgun approach, and hey-yo! You admitted Meridian 59 (maybe).
Not to mention there's the Everquest time-lock progression server coming up soon that will LITERALLY be the old Everquest, except for a small improvement in graphics and of course, different players.
It would have been a lot more helpful if you could have broken down why each and every game I mentioned is disqualified. I mean, I don't know why you dislike certain ones! Do you dislike Xsyon because the graphics are too good? Perhaps it's because in the OLD days, nobody would have ever put an X next to an S? Is it too sandbox for you? Not enough?
Your blanket statements of 'Not good enough!' aren't really very constructive, you know. Even if there's just ONE game that is like old school games (What's wrong with EVE?), then that would actually end up being incredibly ideal.
All the people who want that feel of game should flock towards that, abandoning WoW in droves and driving them to penury, while swelling the subscription numbers of ye-olde-school-game until only the stupidest of developers could fail to see that in fact, making a game finely tuned to the retro tastes of the past is the only way to make money.
(PS. Constant cries of 'Hurderp, you so ignorant' don't really make you any more endearing.
)
1. It's out very soon! ... and I think this proves my point that while people ask for an old style game, that's secondary to it being well polished. Except that's a vicious cycle, with games being underfunded because people won't play them because they're underfunded.
2. Yes. The game mechanics are unique. That's bad how? I thought you wanted more unique, less clone-oriented games. II mentioned EVE as having a certain feel of old style games. Like I said, it's an elusive concept.
3. I wouldn't call LotRO a failure. Sure, it went F2P, but that's because it makes them even MORE money. So that's a success, segued into an even more awesome success, right? They've made a considerable profit, and since moving to F2P, the profit has only gotten bigger. That is only a failure if you define failure as 'Not doing as well as WoW'. There are other games that made a profit as well.
4. I'm not in favor of developers playing it safe, I'm a realist. I am saying that is the behavior they display. The fact that you confuse 'realist who recognizes how companies work' and 'person who idealizes that behavior as optimal' is probably the problem you're having with me. Well, part of it.
My attitude is an attitude whereupon I try and embrace the reality of the market. I hug it. I enfold it in my arms. It is not my friend, but I understand it, like the dearest of enemies. I realize why things go the way they do. Do they go the way I want? Not really. I don't like WoW. The only thing worse is all the subpar WoW clones. Understanding WHY these clones exist does not mean I want to play them.
We're both blaming people for the collapse of old school gaming, but we're just going at it from a different angle. You are blaming the new people and the companies. I am blaming the old people. Why should the new people have the exact tastes of the old people? Why should the companies follow money that there is not observable, quantifiable proof that is there?
Do not complain because the top 50 radio station plays insufficient jazz. Support jazz where you can... even things that are semi-jazz like. Shun and abhor the non-jazz. Maybe learn the saxaphone, play a little yourself. Get together the old band.
Stop yelling at the hip-hop kids. Also, stop yelling at the jazz fans who try telling you to stop yelling at the hip-hop kids.
That's true, the games themselves may in some cases still be 'oldstyle' enough, but what made those MMORPG's great was also the community and overall atmosphere that you could sense while playing, and that atmosphere is made by players.
It's a shame that most of those oldstyle MMO's don't have the thriving community anymore that they deserve. It's a shame that Vanguard has been abandoned by its owning company, with a few years of solid upgrading and expanding and with a healthy population it could've been great. I know I would still be playing Vanguard if I knew it got the attention of the devs it deserved and if the population was healthy in numbers.
And the same applies to SWG, which could have been great if they had stuck to their vision instead of gutting its heart and trying to 'wowify' the gameplay.
I'm interested enough to give the EQ progression server a try, if the population is active and at least medium, which it looks like it can reach easily, then that's good enough for me
(as an MMORPG on the side)
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree with the OP. A genre that was holding such promise has become like junkfood of restaurants where a shallow game that has combat, and only combat, can score 8 in sites like this.
My gaming blog
And yet EQ was nothing but combat. You couldn't even get materials for crafting without combat.
And modern games have many different types of combat, many different quests, ample room for solo and group, and good crafting. Sounds like modern games have more options.
Venge
Modern games are easy, casual, quick to level, no death penalties which means there is little risk in doing anything. A 8 year old can be successful at WoW, which speaks volume for the mental capabilities required to play those.
I didnt play EQ much, as it was a a pretty linear game, but I do recall that it was much harder and you needed to be social and form teams to get anywhere. Also the world was huge, had lots of starting zones and lots of interesting classes and skills. It felt like a virtual world and not just a small themepark.
My gaming blog
I think the overlying problem is that MMO's do not translate well with real pen and paper roleplaying games. That is the problem I see. When I pen and paper roleplay so much more of an telling story can happen during a session of play than even can happen in a month of playing MMO's. It doesn't really matter which MMO you put to example either. Most of my friends wish that MMO's could closer relate to their pen and paper influences. One example of how MMO's don't translate well with real roleplaying is dark area game play. In almost all MMO's they don't require the player to even carry torches, lamps, or even cast magic to light the night, as most MMO's don't even try to make night close to whats real is. In a pen and paper adventure you almost always are forced to plan for the night.
Point is I could go on and on about how MMO's have gone away from the core of their origins. Heck even I can sorta see why some things should be automated or done away with for convenience. I played WoW for 5 years and I can say I have more memories of my mishaps and deaths in my 1 and a half years in EQ prior. Only things I can remember about WoW is when I made HighWarlord. And how cool a few boss fights where. But, one thing my friends and I have is less stories of our travels in WoW, or DAoC, or City of Heroes, or Aion. The only reason I can see for having less stories is there is definelty less at stake in the newer MMO's. This is universal. Less at stake is becoming more and more the tune of todays MMO's.
Don't hear me wrong I'm not one of those SM types that wants to go back to the punishing days of death causing the loss of a whole week of exp grinding, I am just stating the obviouse. When there is less at stake you can tread ahead without fear and so in the stories to be told of high adventure are less telling. Things like 3rd person view, night not being dark, minmax formulas on making classes, number floating over npcs heads of damage totals, maps with GPS, and just the simple fact that nowdays the design these mmo's so players can't get lost. All these things are NOT what happens when you roleplay.
I agree, its madness. When Mythic decided to do what they did to Warhammer, and Gamesworkshop just stood by and let them just shows that hopes are thin for us out there yearning to get a good MMO that translates well with PnP roleplay. These clowns somehow took 2nd edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay PnP precentile skill based game and turned it into a level based quest grinder akin to WoW. Sad, truely sad I tell you. I have all the Warhammer 1st edition and 2nd edition pnp RP books and Warhammer 2nd Ed. I feel is one of the best RP systems of any other roleplaying game out there. What Mythic did to it is just silly.
I can't truly say what the answer is to the problem we have today as I know its is a loftly task to put together an MMO. I do know what I like though today in gaming and its not the rehashings of quest bangs over NPC's heads. The themepark MMO's are dominate today and I just hope some developer out there will break the mold. God knows there are those that had their chance and didn't take it. (MYTHIC) Heck I even like to PvP alot and one thing to do not do when PnP RPing is fight the players you are playing with. So there are even things in MMO's I like that to jive to real roleplaying. Sorry for the short novel but I had alot on my chest.
Its a MADHOUSE! A MADHOUSE!!!!!!!!
An 8 year old could be successfull in the old games as well. While WoW can be easy, it is also much more challenging in some ways than the old ones, very very few people have beat the end bosses yet, that tells me there is some challenge to it.
WoW gives you the ability to play the way you want easy or hard. If most people play easy that doesn't mean the game is easy, it means that they chose to play it easy.
Old games were easy. There was nothing complicated or hard about EQ, DAOC, or any of the others that anyone with an IQ over 70 coudln't figure out in an hour or two.
It wasn't any harder at all. Just longer. No you didn't need to form teams to get anyway. Half the classes could solo to cap quite easily, and did.
And again there are raids in WoW that are just as hard, AV's in CoH that take hours to beat, bosses in Vanguard that are extremely difficulty. It isn't any harder or easier, what modern games do give you is a choice on how you choose to play. How you choose to play says more about you.
Venge
since i missed most of this debate ill just throw what caught my eye in the mix.
i think it was meowhead or whoever that said if you want an oldstyle mmo go play one, and listed eq1, daoc, uo, and some others.
its true they are still around, but all of those games in their current state are bastards of what they used to be, and what the players who remember their glory days know. from all the updates and expansions the companies have made, especially since WoW became a god, they have ruined their games.
and thats exactly why eq1 is opening a time locked progression server on the 15th. now a days people like myself, and guessing by the overwhelming backlash, a very few people from those days are happy.
the majority back then is now a vast minority.
personally i cant stand quest grinder, faction grinder, gear grinder, dungeon grinder, instanced, insta travel games. that why wow has always been a bad taste in my mouth.
so far nothing has been able to please me for more then a few weeks. i haven't sub'd to a mmo for more then a month since 2002.
but Rift right now in beta events has made me happy. i can skip quests completely and just grind mobs like i did back then. and craft my own stuff.
but this is a never ending debate, like politics, there are always different views with different valid reasons. but neither side will ever give up. human nature i guess...
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
You can copy me, I'll copy you , we can dumb it down together and make money. Forget quality because that is too much work for us. I want the the easy jobs with easy money and I'l let the others struggle with innovation because again, that will take too much effort from me. Sounds about right to me.
Lots of shouting about innovation but very few actual shouters unfortunately means that innovating projects will struggle for money and direction.
To put you into perspective. Who would not play UO if somebody revamped the game and changed nothing from its mechanics. Zero change, zero innovation. Just upgrade the game into today's graphics environment.
Nonsense. You need social skills and better understanding of your spells, environment etc to be successful to games like UO, Asherons Call, Everquest etc (back when they were in their primes, not now). There is noone hand holding you as it is in WoW with quest markers, next to zero death penalty and skills that takes no brain to use.
Your statement that they were easy is taken completely out of the air and you shows that you probably didnt even play those games when they were released.
Modern games do have inflated bosses with huge stats but overall the game is easy. They are linear, you have little choice on where to go, if you make a misstake and die you can do it over and over again because there is no risk involved.
My gaming blog
Nonsense. You need social skills and better understanding of your spells, environment etc to be successful to games like UO, Asherons Call, Everquest etc (back when they were in their primes, not now). There is noone hand holding you as it is in WoW with quest markers, next to zero death penalty and skills that takes no brain to use.
Your statement that they were easy is taken completely out of the air and you shows that you probably didnt even play those games when they were released.
Modern games do have inflated bosses with huge stats but overall the game is easy. They are linear, you have little choice on where to go, if you make a misstake and die you can do it over and over again because there is no risk involved.
True, I remember in eq1 before velious it took me a week or two to do the quest for the ghoulbane sword. There was no quest guide and no icons, no arrows, nothing. I only had the hints that the npc told me in chat. I had to put the pieces together myself. After I finished it I felt so proud and accomplished.Now I just clcik thru all the text as fast as I can, then follow the arrows and not once do I have to rread or think.
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
Thanks to the magic of the internet, faqs and wiki sites, even the most complex of quest chains is reduced to an alt-tab and a quick search term.
I actually find the reduction of games to dry, easily accessed facts depressing, because it takes away the feeling of being special when you discover something, because you're right there with 800 people who did it the easy way.
Still, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Whether there's arrows in an MMO or not nowadays would pretty much be the difference between needing to do a quick web lookup, and not. That's about it.
The age of game mysteries is mostly over.