Whom are these "a lot of players"?. In case you haven't figured out yet but you are a minority regardless of how serious you and this supposed big group want to be taken. Just look at the sandbox games vs the themepark games sales figures.
I know you like to think you are part of this big growing movement of players that hinge towards sandbox games because of games like WoW. That's just not reality lol.
I don't know about you, but looking back at a lot of the recent themepark releases, i would hardly call any of them a smashing success.
vs sandbox games they are still the winner on that front so moot point
Not really, maybe its time for a AAA developer to take a chance...
We both can see a lot of these themeparks aren't living up to expectations. How many more "failures" (i use that term loosely) need to happen before one of these developers takes notice? How many visit this board and see how many people are somewhat interested to see what one could bring to the table with the proper backing?
just a thought....
And that is why you will never be an investor
As we said, these last few years of themeparks have been raking in the cash....
Is it niche' to sell 10+ million copies of a game? How about 20 million? Those games are open ended and play exactly like any hybrid theme park / sandbox MMORPG. Like I said, if a sandbox MMORPG with the same production value as a Red Dead Redemption or Grand Theft Auto 4 was ever released, I think it would do quite well.
Production value is one thing but gameplay is another.
Looking at the Xyson forums I see people excited and happy even though the production values aren't as high as a Red Dead Redemptiojn or Grand Theft Auto 4.
However they are discussing getting hammers or shovels or just chopping down wood and trading. Now, I applaud any type of different type of game play, no matter how esoteric it can get.
But convincing large developers to spend millions in a game where people are concentrating on how to make a shovel is going to be a hard sell.
Not to say all sandbox games have to be like this, it starts to conjure the thoughts of a friend of mine who said that SWG to him was like having a second job he didn't get paid for.
Some people like that nitty gritty crafting things from scratch, trading it, staking out territory, etc and some want complete adventure and don't want to chop wood and keep spread sheets on where the resources are and what the trading value is.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
And that is why you will never be an investor. Sandbox is niche whichever way you look at it.
and thats Why i have a niche Rolex (MMORPG) and you have a replica (wow)
replicas do sell much ,much more than original ones,but it doesnt mean that they are like originals,they may look like ones ,seller might told you that it is,but someday you will figure it out.
Whom are these "a lot of players"?. In case you haven't figured out yet but you are a minority regardless of how serious you and this supposed big group want to be taken. Just look at the sandbox games vs the themepark games sales figures.
I know you like to think you are part of this big growing movement of players that hinge towards sandbox games because of games like WoW. That's just not reality lol.
I don't know about you, but looking back at a lot of the recent themepark releases, i would hardly call any of them a smashing success.
vs sandbox games they are still the winner on that front so moot point
Not really, maybe its time for a AAA developer to take a chance...
We both can see a lot of these themeparks aren't living up to expectations. How many more "failures" (i use that term loosely) need to happen before one of these developers takes notice? How many visit this board and see how many people are somewhat interested to see what one could bring to the table with the proper backing?
just a thought....
And that is why you will never be an investor
As we said, these last few years of themeparks have been raking in the cash....
Compared to released sandbox games. Yes
Of course because, just like the theme park games that have released have not been delivering a quality product. Plain and simple. Look at Warhammer, Aion, LotR, Age of Conan, they are nothing to write home about. As I stated. If a game company would make a quality triple A theme park / sandbox game and had good game design and implentation...I bet it would be one of the hottest games going. It may not be a WoW killer, but any game that can keep 350k to 500K players subscribed here in the US and EU(EVE for example) should be considered successful.
Let's face it, theme park games any more are not making the cut. Players are getting tired of them and that is why they(the newer releases) are not doing so well here in the US and EU. They maybe doing well in Asia(like Aion), but in the US, not so good. It is time for something different, and I think many players would jump at the chance to play such a game - if it was designed right, with the same production values and quaility we see in those single player open world RPG's.
Warhammer is down to 2 US servers? Pretty close to Darkfall if I'm not mistaken
How much money you think was invested into AOC, as compared to say EvE?
Look, i'm not saying that Sandboxes are going to overtake Themeparks, but to say a sandbox with some good backing cant be a success is pretty naive imo.
Is it niche' to sell 10+ million copies of a game? How about 20 million? Those games are open ended and play exactly like any hybrid theme park / sandbox MMORPG. Like I said, if a sandbox MMORPG with the same production value as a Red Dead Redemption or Grand Theft Auto 4 was ever released, I think it would do quite well.
Production value is one thing but gameplay is another.
Looking at the Xyson forums I see people excited and happy even though the production values aren't as high as a Red Dead Redemptiojn or Grand Theft Auto 4.
However they are discussing getting hammers or shovels or just chopping down wood and trading. Now, I applaud any type of different type of game play, no matter how esoteric it can get.
But convincing large developers to spend millions in a game where people are concentrating on how to make a shovel is going to be a hard sell.
Not to say all sandbox games have to be like this, it starts to conjure the thoughts of a friend of mine who said that SWG to him was like having a second job he didn't get paid for.
Some people like that nitty gritty crafting things from scratch, trading it, staking out territory, etc and some want complete adventure and don't want to chop wood and keep spread sheets on where the resources are and what the trading value is.
Same thing can be said of theme park MMORPG's. If the game has bad game play and poor implentation of other game elements it is not going to succeed. Look at the recently released MMORPG's over the past few years. They looked good on paper and sounded wonderful. Then we played them and well, their subscription numbers here in the US and EU speak for themselves. A couple completely closed, some went free to play and others are currently on life support. Not a good batting average if you ask me.
Warhammer is down to 2 US servers? Pretty close to Darkfall if I'm not mistaken
How much money you think was invested into AOC, as compared to say EvE?
Look, i'm not saying that Sandboxes are going to overtake Themeparks, but to say a sandbox with some good backing cant be a success is pretty naive imo.
That depend on how you define success. Able to make a profit? Able to compete with themeparks?. What's the ball park figure for success you think this genre can have.
EvE is as much of a success because it's a space MMO as it is because it's a sandbox btw. It really doesn't have any competition to really gauge based on it being a space MMO alone.
Warhammer is down to 2 US servers? Pretty close to Darkfall if I'm not mistaken
How much money you think was invested into AOC, as compared to say EvE?
Look, i'm not saying that Sandboxes are going to overtake Themeparks, but to say a sandbox with some good backing cant be a success is pretty naive imo.
That depend on how you define success. Able to make a profit? Able to compete with themeparks?. What's the ball park figure for success you think this genre can have.
EvE is as much of a success because it's a space MMO as it is because it's a sandbox btw. It really doesn't have any competition to really gauge based on it being a space MMO alone.
I don't know what a success is, I'm not a developer, or as you said an investor.. but i know what a success isn't.. and thats creating enough servers for what you consider to be a success, and the having server merges, or going free to play in the first 2-3 years of your games lifespan..
Which seems to becoming the norm...
As for EvE, if you can create a successful sandbox AND shy away from the given Sword and Sorcery of MMOs, you get even bigger kudos from me.. If it was a bad space game, it would be bad, regardless if it was a sandbox, or a themepark. People don't pay a monthly fee just so they can fly a pixelated spaceship ; )
Warhammer is down to 2 US servers? Pretty close to Darkfall if I'm not mistaken
How much money you think was invested into AOC, as compared to say EvE?
Look, i'm not saying that Sandboxes are going to overtake Themeparks, but to say a sandbox with some good backing cant be a success is pretty naive imo.
That depend on how you define success. Able to make a profit? Able to compete with themeparks?. What's the ball park figure for success you think this genre can have.
EvE is as much of a success because it's a space MMO as it is because it's a sandbox btw. It really doesn't have any competition to really gauge based on it being a space MMO alone.
I could also say that WoW is as much of a success because its accessible and high quality as it is because its a theme-park. Wonderful! I am glad that we have finally decoupled game style from their success potential.
Actually no, I think I'll bring success stories back into it. Rockstar, Notch, Zyngna and many others have created wildly successful sandbox games on nearly every platform and genre except MMORPG's. Why is it such a stretch of the imagination to realize that the same success could be found on a MMORPG.
Game development always lags demand. Even if one of these AAA developers decided all the way back in 2009 that they need to make a MMOSandbox game it would still be years before we hear about it and longer until we see it. For all we know there are a few top developers out there working on games like this right now. Hell, I know Richard Garriot is working on one. I know that Blizzard and Turbine are working on secret MMO projects. There are tons of high budget MMOG's in the works and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they move toward sandox open-world designs.
Is it niche' to sell 10+ million copies of a game? How about 20 million? Those games are open ended and play exactly like any hybrid theme park / sandbox MMORPG. Like I said, if a sandbox MMORPG with the same production value as a Red Dead Redemption or Grand Theft Auto 4 was ever released, I think it would do quite well.
Production value is one thing but gameplay is another.
Looking at the Xyson forums I see people excited and happy even though the production values aren't as high as a Red Dead Redemptiojn or Grand Theft Auto 4.
However they are discussing getting hammers or shovels or just chopping down wood and trading. Now, I applaud any type of different type of game play, no matter how esoteric it can get.
But convincing large developers to spend millions in a game where people are concentrating on how to make a shovel is going to be a hard sell.
Not to say all sandbox games have to be like this, it starts to conjure the thoughts of a friend of mine who said that SWG to him was like having a second job he didn't get paid for.
Some people like that nitty gritty crafting things from scratch, trading it, staking out territory, etc and some want complete adventure and don't want to chop wood and keep spread sheets on where the resources are and what the trading value is.
Same thing can be said of theme park MMORPG's. If the game has bad game play and poor implentation of other game elements it is not going to succeed. Look at the recently released MMORPG's over the past few years. They looked good on paper and sounded wonderful. Then we played them and well, their subscription numbers here in the US and EU speak for themselves. A couple completely closed, some went free to play and others are currently on life support. Not a good batting average if you ask me.
I'll clarify.
I'm not talking about "good game play vs bad game play".
First of all, that's subjective.
I"m talking about type of game play.
So with Xyson as an example, having to log in with no map and scour for materials so that you might be able to make a shovel can be incredible game play to some and a quizzical look from another.
However, I really don't get the sense that this type of game play, no matter how incredible it might be to some people, is going to draw AAA millions of dollars.
So if Xyson or another game had the most incredible implementation of their features I still don't think that large companies are going to give them a second look.
Now, I'm not saying there isn't a market for this. But there is a market for Free Jazz and i still don't think you will ever see sold out stadiums for that type of music.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think it's worth noting that I don't think that a sandbox CAN'T be successful, just that it's not a guarantee.
People who say 'sandboxes can never do well' are just as unreasonable as those who are saying 'a sandbox will automatically do well'
The facts are... well, the facts are that we simply don't know how a high-profile AAA sandbox would do in the post-WOW market, because there's none of them around. (EvE is around, but it doesn't have the same sort of budget or polish you'd expect from games like WoW, WAR, AoC, LotRO and so on...)
There are equally valid arguments for why one might fail, as there are for why one might succeed.
There's just not enough information. On a side note, it's worth pointing out that a sandbox non-MMO (Like Rockstar does) is at least as theme park (If not more) than your average MMORPG. The standards to make a game sandbox are completely different for MMOs vs. non-MMOs. Heck, if you could run right to left in Super Mario Bros., it would have TWICE as much freedom alone.
The most obvious reasons they haven't been dumping their money into sandbox games is that it's risky, investors hate risk. You might say 'All the failed sandboxes failed for COMPLETELY DIFFERENT reasons', but you can't point to something like WoW and say 'Well, see what sandboxes can become if successful?'. Then, everybody who releases a budget sandbox title ends up struggling, because people like to see polish in their games, and underfunded games have a hard time delivering that.
Yes, I'm fully aware that WoW is a complete outlier... its run away success is in no way indicative of normal MMORPG behavior, but it's a lot easier to sell 'We'll make WoW-like money by creating a game like it' rather than 'We'll make that sort of money by making a game completely unlike it' to investors.
... also, the AAA MMO industry hardly turns on a dime. You have to realize that games that aren't even released yet have been YEARS in production, and many of their essential design elements were nailed down a long time ago. They'd have to rebuild from the bottom up to change the game as drastically as 'from themepark to sandbox', and that's a really, really good way to end up like Duke Nukem... a punchline to a joke about delays, because of always attempting to change technology to match the present.
So with Xyson as an example, having to log in with no map and scour for materials so that you might be able to make a shovel can be incredible game play to some and a quizzical look from another.
However, I really don't get the sense that this type of game play, no matter how incredible it might be to some people, is going to draw AAA millions of dollars.
So if Xyson or another game had the most incredible implementation of their features I still don't think that large companies are going to give them a second look.
Now, I'm not saying there isn't a market for this. But there is a market for Free Jazz and i still don't think you will ever see sold out stadiums for that type of music.
Farmville could have filled more than a few stadiums and its all about... farms. You might be surprised at how many people would get into making a shovel. Conflict and combat are actually detractors for many people, yet nearly every MMOG is focused on conflict. Providing more non-combat options might be the big key to success of the next generation of MMOG's. I don't want to speculate on it too much because honestly, Farmville surprised me. I never would have thought people would like farming so much.
So with Xyson as an example, having to log in with no map and scour for materials so that you might be able to make a shovel can be incredible game play to some and a quizzical look from another.
However, I really don't get the sense that this type of game play, no matter how incredible it might be to some people, is going to draw AAA millions of dollars.
So if Xyson or another game had the most incredible implementation of their features I still don't think that large companies are going to give them a second look.
Now, I'm not saying there isn't a market for this. But there is a market for Free Jazz and i still don't think you will ever see sold out stadiums for that type of music.
Farmville could have filled more than a few stadiums and its all about... farms. You might be surprised at how many people would get into making a shovel. Conflict and combat are actually detractors for many people, yet nearly every MMOG is focused on conflict. Providing more non-combat options might be the big key to success of the next generation of MMOG's. I don't want to speculate on it too much because honestly, Farmville surprised me. I never would have thought people would like farming so much.
and yet MILLIONS of players are willing to shelf out .. MUCH MORE money .. to play COD.
Plus, i don't think people are really crazy about farmville that much. Many play it because it is there. MIillions play freecell too. You can't argue gamers are clamoring for the gameplay of freecell.
Farmville could have filled more than a few stadiums and its all about... farms. You might be surprised at how many people would get into making a shovel. Conflict and combat are actually detractors for many people, yet nearly every MMOG is focused on conflict. Providing more non-combat options might be the big key to success of the next generation of MMOG's. I don't want to speculate on it too much because honestly, Farmville surprised me. I never would have thought people would like farming so much.
Second-biggest browser-based social-networking-centered farming game in the WORLD!
It's worth pointing out that although Farmville has a grind, it's a different sort of grind than you see in sandbox games.
It's also not much of a game. Which so far as I can tell by looking at facebook games, is a large part of the charm. It's more of a lazy social networking pseudo-game with a large amount of carrots to give people a constant low level feeling of achievement. Oh, and it's free to play. With a cash shop. So you're saying F2P games are the wave of the future and should be the direction all MMORPGs should move towards?
Also, big headed cartoon kids. Should all MMOs move in that direction too? Are you willing to steal all the aspects of Farmville just to get a sandbox? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If you think being more like theme parks is dumbing down MMORPGs, take a long, serious look at yourself, and try saying with a straight face 'if MMORPGs were a lot more like Farmville, they'd be a much more intelligent genre.'
People aren't playing Farmville because it gives them a chance to really get into crafting and they really love the open freedom you have... they're playing it because it's on Facebook, their friends are playing it, it's INSANELY easy, and you are constantly rewarded for even the tritest of actions. The level of risk vs. reward and effort expended makes WoW look like getting a doctorate from Harvard when you're deaf, blind and mildly retarded.
So with Xyson as an example, having to log in with no map and scour for materials so that you might be able to make a shovel can be incredible game play to some and a quizzical look from another.
However, I really don't get the sense that this type of game play, no matter how incredible it might be to some people, is going to draw AAA millions of dollars.
So if Xyson or another game had the most incredible implementation of their features I still don't think that large companies are going to give them a second look.
Now, I'm not saying there isn't a market for this. But there is a market for Free Jazz and i still don't think you will ever see sold out stadiums for that type of music.
Farmville could have filled more than a few stadiums and its all about... farms. You might be surprised at how many people would get into making a shovel. Conflict and combat are actually detractors for many people, yet nearly every MMOG is focused on conflict. Providing more non-combat options might be the big key to success of the next generation of MMOG's. I don't want to speculate on it too much because honestly, Farmville surprised me. I never would have thought people would like farming so much.
and yet MILLIONS of players are willing to shelf out .. MUCH MORE money .. to play COD.
Plus, i don't think people are really crazy about farmville that much. Many play it because it is there. MIillions play freecell too. You can't argue gamers are clamoring for the gameplay of freecell.
I agree, Farmville is like what we do while waiting for a game to download or something, but for Facebookers. Facebookers don't go on facebook to play a game, they go on facebook to chat, farmville is what the do while waiting to chat, that's also why it's simple. Some people take it to the extreme, but that's everything.
So with Xyson as an example, having to log in with no map and scour for materials so that you might be able to make a shovel can be incredible game play to some and a quizzical look from another.
However, I really don't get the sense that this type of game play, no matter how incredible it might be to some people, is going to draw AAA millions of dollars.
So if Xyson or another game had the most incredible implementation of their features I still don't think that large companies are going to give them a second look.
Now, I'm not saying there isn't a market for this. But there is a market for Free Jazz and i still don't think you will ever see sold out stadiums for that type of music.
Farmville could have filled more than a few stadiums and its all about... farms. You might be surprised at how many people would get into making a shovel. Conflict and combat are actually detractors for many people, yet nearly every MMOG is focused on conflict. Providing more non-combat options might be the big key to success of the next generation of MMOG's. I don't want to speculate on it too much because honestly, Farmville surprised me. I never would have thought people would like farming so much.
I don't think farmville is about farms.
I think it's about a sort of social interaction between people that takes something as innocuous as a farm, creates a colorful "farm world" and allows people to interact with each other through what essentially a toy. knowing this forum I should clarify that that is not a "diss".
Farmville comes across as essentialy a toy or large party game.
Its appeal is in the context of facebook and its users and allows for another way to interact in a playful way.
A game like Xyson or perhaps UO or SWG (or pick your hardcore sandbox) is not going to appeal to a farmville player just because you can create your own farm.
Context is very important as well as presentation. They are different markets.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So with Xyson as an example, having to log in with no map and scour for materials so that you might be able to make a shovel can be incredible game play to some and a quizzical look from another.
However, I really don't get the sense that this type of game play, no matter how incredible it might be to some people, is going to draw AAA millions of dollars.
So if Xyson or another game had the most incredible implementation of their features I still don't think that large companies are going to give them a second look.
Now, I'm not saying there isn't a market for this. But there is a market for Free Jazz and i still don't think you will ever see sold out stadiums for that type of music.
Farmville could have filled more than a few stadiums and its all about... farms. You might be surprised at how many people would get into making a shovel. Conflict and combat are actually detractors for many people, yet nearly every MMOG is focused on conflict. Providing more non-combat options might be the big key to success of the next generation of MMOG's. I don't want to speculate on it too much because honestly, Farmville surprised me. I never would have thought people would like farming so much.
I don't think farmville is about farms.
I think it's about a sort of social interaction between people that takes something as innocuous as a farm, creates a colorful "farm world" and allows people to interact with each other through what essentially a toy. knowing this forum I should clarify that that is not a "diss".
Farmville comes across as essentialy a toy or large party game.
Its appeal is in the context of facebook and its users and allows for another way to interact in a playful way.
A game like Xyson or perhaps UO or SWG (or pick your hardcore sandbox) is not going to appeal to a farmville player just because you can create your own farm.
Context is very important as well as presentation. They are different markets.
Even assuming you're 100% right, its still showing how a "toy or large party game" might expand the MMO genre. Making that shovel in Xyson is no different than you're explaination of Farmville. Getting enough players working together to make a farm in Xyson could build friendship and communities in a way that solo questing can't even compare with.
I typically use Farmville references to show that theme is not as important as people think it is and to show that sandbox features that require imagination are not automatically rejected by the mainstream.
Facebook analogies are very unpopular given the responses. Lets look at boardgaming. Agricola is one of the most popular board games of the last few years. Its a game about making a farm. Most of the top boardgames of the last decade have non-offending themes and try to minimize conflict with indirect interaction. Trading, town building, and shipping games are just as popular as games that focus on combat. Providing options like that in a MMOG would make it a sandbox game.
I'm not saying that Xyson is going to go well. What I am saying is that you could take a game like WoW and add things like farming, building, trading,and shipping, essentially turning it into a sandbox game with non-combat options and it would expand its playerbase.
So with Xyson as an example, having to log in with no map and scour for materials so that you might be able to make a shovel can be incredible game play to some and a quizzical look from another.
However, I really don't get the sense that this type of game play, no matter how incredible it might be to some people, is going to draw AAA millions of dollars.
So if Xyson or another game had the most incredible implementation of their features I still don't think that large companies are going to give them a second look.
Now, I'm not saying there isn't a market for this. But there is a market for Free Jazz and i still don't think you will ever see sold out stadiums for that type of music.
Farmville could have filled more than a few stadiums and its all about... farms. You might be surprised at how many people would get into making a shovel. Conflict and combat are actually detractors for many people, yet nearly every MMOG is focused on conflict. Providing more non-combat options might be the big key to success of the next generation of MMOG's. I don't want to speculate on it too much because honestly, Farmville surprised me. I never would have thought people would like farming so much.
I don't think farmville is about farms.
I think it's about a sort of social interaction between people that takes something as innocuous as a farm, creates a colorful "farm world" and allows people to interact with each other through what essentially a toy. knowing this forum I should clarify that that is not a "diss".
Farmville comes across as essentialy a toy or large party game.
Its appeal is in the context of facebook and its users and allows for another way to interact in a playful way.
A game like Xyson or perhaps UO or SWG (or pick your hardcore sandbox) is not going to appeal to a farmville player just because you can create your own farm.
Context is very important as well as presentation. They are different markets.
Even assuming you're 100% right, its still showing how a "toy or large party game" might expand the MMO genre. Making that shovel in Xyson is no different than you're explaination of Farmville. Getting enough players working together to make a farm in Xyson could build friendship and communities in a way that solo questing can't even compare with.
I typically use Farmville references to show that theme is not as important as people think it is and to show that sandbox features that require imagination are not automatically rejected by the mainstream.
Facebook analogies are very unpopular given the responses. Lets look at boardgaming. Agricola is one of the most popular board games of the last few years. Its a game about making a farm. Most of the top boardgames of the last decade have non-offending themes and try to minimize conflict with indirect interaction. Trading, town building, and shipping games are just as popular as games that focus on combat. Providing options like that in a MMOG would make it a sandbox game.
I'm not saying that Xyson is going to go well. What I am saying is that you could take a game like WoW and add things like farming, building, trading,and shipping, essentially turning it into a sandbox game with non-combat options and it would expand its playerbase.
But again, it's context and how it's done.
And some other ineffable "part" that might be hard to put one's finger on it. I say that because a game like SIMS is incredibly huge yet SIMS online crashed and burned.
People logging into facebook to be with friends that they actually know who interact on a variety of levels and who also think visiting each other's "farms" is fun and novel, especially if the game play can be done casually is far different from gathering resources and making a shovel in a hardcore sandbox game.
I would offer the idea (and I have no proof of this but it doesn't seem too far off) that farmville wouldn't have been as popular had it been released as a stand alone game.
Coupling it as part of the facebook package is really what makes it shine.
Farmville allows people who already know each other to interact on a fun and whimsical level.
These people would be interacting even if there wasn't a farmville.
You try getting essentially "non gamers" to log into EVE or Xyson or any sandbox game you choose and see if their experience is even close.
Farmville works because those people are already there and they already have relationships.
I'm not saying that getting together and growing a farm and having yoru friends visit it can't be entertaining. But there is a huge difference between "Sandbox MMO" and "Farmville on Facebook". And is Farmville free? i think it is. If it has a cash shop I don't know about it. So "free" helps as well.
Because by your thought we should be able to lure a huge amount of Farmville players to Xyson and give that struggling Indy developer a huge shot in the arm.
I just don't think the audiences are the same.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's also not much of a game. Which so far as I can tell by looking at facebook games, is a large part of the charm. It's more of a lazy social networking pseudo-game with a large amount of carrots to give people a constant low level feeling of achievement. Oh, and it's free to play. With a cash shop. So you're saying F2P games are the wave of the future and should be the direction all MMORPGs should move towards?
Also, big headed cartoon kids. Should all MMOs move in that direction too? Are you willing to steal all the aspects of Farmville just to get a sandbox? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If you think being more like theme parks is dumbing down MMORPGs, take a long, serious look at yourself, and try saying with a straight face 'if MMORPGs were a lot more like Farmville, they'd be a much more intelligent genre.'
People aren't playing Farmville because it gives them a chance to really get into crafting and they really love the open freedom you have... they're playing it because it's on Facebook, their friends are playing it, it's INSANELY easy, and you are constantly rewarded for even the tritest of actions. The level of risk vs. reward and effort expended makes WoW look like getting a doctorate from Harvard when you're deaf, blind and mildly retarded.
What I personally want is completely different than what would make a mainstream success.
You're absolutely right about most of this. People like to be lazy. They like to socialize. They like a large amount of carrots and the feeling of achievement. They don't like to spend money. In case you haven't noticed these are ALL trends in the more successful MMOG's of the last decade. If you want to expand the MMO market, that is the direction you need to go, NOT toward making it less accessible and more challenging.
I won't speculate on why people play Farmville. All I know is that there are hundreds of facebook games with hundreds of themes and they chose farms. It would be foolish to say that they play it only becuase its on facebook or that they don't care about it being about farms. Obviously something made them choose Farmville over the other games. If the theme was so offensive they had plenty of others to choose from.
BTW, the only facebook game I play is Dungeon Overlords which is pretty cool.
What I personally want is completely different than what would make a mainstream success.
You're absolutely right about most of this. People like to be lazy. They like to socialize. They like a large amount of carrots and the feeling of achievement. They don't like to spend money. In case you haven't noticed these are ALL trends in the more successful MMOG's of the last decade. If you want to expand the MMO market, that is the direction you need to go, NOT toward making it less accessible and more challenging.
I won't speculate on why people play Farmville. All I know is that there are hundreds of facebook games with hundreds of themes and they chose farms. It would be foolish to say that they play it only becuase its on facebook or that they don't care about it being about farms. Obviously something made them choose Farmville over the other games. If the theme was so offensive they had plenty of others to choose from.
BTW, the only facebook game I play is Dungeon Overlords which is pretty cool.
I don't thinnk it's popular because it's on facebook. I think it's popular because it's the "right game" on facebook. There's something about the world/gameplay that is appealing to facebook players.
again, I don't think it would be as popular if it was released separately and had a cash shop or some other way to make money.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
And some other ineffable "part" that might be hard to put one's finger on it. I say that because a game like SIMS is incredibly huge yet SIMS online crashed and burned.
People logging into facebook to be with friends that they actually know who interact on a variety of levels and who also think visiting each other's "farms" is fun and novel, especially if the game play can be done casually is far different from gathering resources and making a shovel in a hardcore sandbox game.
I would offer the idea (and I have no proof of this but it doesn't seem too far off) that farmville wouldn't have been as popular had it been released as a stand alone game.
Coupling it as part of the facebook package is really what makes it shine.
Farmville allows people who already know each other to interact on a fun and whimsical level.
These people would be interacting even if there wasn't a farmville.
You try getting essentially "non gamers" to log into EVE or Xyson or any sandbox game you choose and see if their experience is even close.
Farmville works because those people are already there and they already have relationships.
I'm not saying that getting together and growing a farm and having yoru friends visit it can't be entertaining. But there is a huge difference between "Sandbox MMO" and "Farmville on Facebook". And is Farmville free? i think it is. If it has a cash shop I don't know about it. So "free" helps as well.
Because by your thought we should be able to lure a huge amount of Farmville players to Xyson and give that struggling Indy developer a huge shot in the arm.
I just don't think the audiences are the same.
I get your point and i won't disagree. It was just that in your example it sounded like you're saying that making a shovel automatically guarantees that it won't be a mainstream success. I have seen plenty of examples where a mundane task like this when shared with a community can be very successful. I never meant to suggest that casuals are suddenly going to like hardcore games just because they can make a shovel.
We have yet to see a highly polished accessible easy to use F2P sandbox MMOG that contains a neutral theme and is family friendly. Tie something like that into a social networking site and I'd eat my shorts if it didn't become a huge success!
Well... first of all.. there is no such thing as a theme park game... that is an incorrect term that is not used in the game industry by trained professionals.. there are many loose terms thrown around, but what your looking for is the term "Linear"... the post should be titled Linear gameplay vs sandbox gameplay.... and you need to understand all of the elements that go into an MMO like world of warcraft, or any other game out there right now like Age of Conan, Rift, Everquest 2, so on and so fourth. You need to understand what a hybrid build actually looks like and play through a game that is considered a hybrid of both Linear and Sandbox. before jumping to any conclusions about how a game is structured and what makes it good vs its peers.... I'll be writting up an essay here shortly on proper game design terms and understanding how things work from a game designers perspective :P
Sounds good in your head, but fails in application! give me your money and i'll make you a game that will consume the masses!
And some other ineffable "part" that might be hard to put one's finger on it. I say that because a game like SIMS is incredibly huge yet SIMS online crashed and burned.
People logging into facebook to be with friends that they actually know who interact on a variety of levels and who also think visiting each other's "farms" is fun and novel, especially if the game play can be done casually is far different from gathering resources and making a shovel in a hardcore sandbox game.
I would offer the idea (and I have no proof of this but it doesn't seem too far off) that farmville wouldn't have been as popular had it been released as a stand alone game.
Coupling it as part of the facebook package is really what makes it shine.
Farmville allows people who already know each other to interact on a fun and whimsical level.
These people would be interacting even if there wasn't a farmville.
You try getting essentially "non gamers" to log into EVE or Xyson or any sandbox game you choose and see if their experience is even close.
Farmville works because those people are already there and they already have relationships.
I'm not saying that getting together and growing a farm and having yoru friends visit it can't be entertaining. But there is a huge difference between "Sandbox MMO" and "Farmville on Facebook". And is Farmville free? i think it is. If it has a cash shop I don't know about it. So "free" helps as well.
Because by your thought we should be able to lure a huge amount of Farmville players to Xyson and give that struggling Indy developer a huge shot in the arm.
I just don't think the audiences are the same.
I get your point and i won't disagree. It was just that in your example it sounded like you're saying that making a shovel automatically guarantees that it won't be a mainstream success. I have seen plenty of examples where a mundane task like this when shared with a community can be very successful. I never meant to suggest that casuals are suddenly going to like hardcore games just because they can make a shovel.
We have yet to see a highly polished accessible easy to use F2P sandbox MMOG that contains a neutral theme and is family friendly. Tie something like that into a social networking site and I'd eat my shorts if it didn't become a huge success!
Well that's the thing, I don't think making the shovel is the issue. But the difference is making a shovel in Xyson and "making a shovel" (or whatever) in farmville.
I agree with your last paragraph.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
again, I don't think it would be as popular if it was released separately and had a cash shop or some other way to make money.
Definitely! In addition to that, WoW probably would be even more successful if it were integrated into facebook. Keeping an existing social network improves any game. I mean, how many of your RL friends do you try to talk into playing your favorite MMORPG?
BTW, Farmville has a cash shop. There is currently a lot of controversy between facebook and Zynga over how they split the proceeds.
I thought it was because Wow is actually very well coded and executed. So is GW and while it never been up to Wows numbers it still have many players even now.
Eve is a really great game but the coding is just so so. The rest of the dsandbox games have horrible programming.
It is not about sandoxes or themeparks, it is not even about casual or hardcore.
The whole thing is about proffesional games. Wow does not look and feel like a hobby projet. More devs will need to do the same.
If Blizzard would have made a sandbox game instead they would still have sold fine, because they are competent.
And no, I don't play Wow, but that doesn't mean I can't see the difference between it and most other games. Some half finnished, badly coded game with too little content will always fail, no matter if it is a sandbox or not.
And a really competently made and fun game will sell a lot no matter the type as well.
People are focusing too much on sandboxes and themeparks, whats sells is fun. And buggy messes are not fun, at least not in the long run.
I think the underling factor is a bit deeper....and the "professionalisim" of the product is more of a symptom than it is a factor of failure.
The reason games like DarkFall, Mortal Online, Darktide (traditional sandbox MMORPGs) failed to some degree or the other is because they didn't have the development dollars and resources committed to the projects that were needed to create Toyota commercials for marketing, hire the best and brightest programmers, artists, and project managment personnel. This is where you stopped, but I'll take it a step further and then the sandbox vs. themepark will make a bit more sense.
The reason those games didn't have the time / money / resources was because not a single AAA game publisher wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot poll because the game does not appeal to a substantial enough percentage of the current MMORPG playerbase.
Since WOW is the gold standard for current MMORPGs and currently occupies the majority of the current MMORPG playerbase....then if it is not a game that appeals to the key demographic of WOW, then there isn't enough money to be made to warrent the time of the EAs, Blizzards, NCSofts of the world......YET.
If you read some of the early blogs and interviews of the WOW dev team.....you'll see that one of their main objectives was to increase subscription base by removing all of the parts of MMORPG gaming that turned off the biggest subsection of the overall gamer market.....the casual gamer.
So I disagree with what you said regarding Blizzard making a successful sandbox MMORPG. I have no doubt in my mind that if there was a company out there capable of creating a great sandbox......it would be Blizzard. What I am saying is.....had they done so, their subscriptions would be more on par of what EVE is drawing in instead of 13 million strong. Too few FPS gamers, Console Gamers, RPG Gamers, Social Media Gamers would have subscribed because the playstyle of a traditional MMORPG wouldn't be a good fit for how casual gamers consume entertainment.....specifically games.
So I think what we've seen happen is that the MMORPG market has sort of devolved into an enhanced RPG with multiplayer connectivity more than the genere evolving into deeper and more open ended fantasy worlds. Considering Blizzard's new project will more than likely succeed WOW than offer an alternative experience........the MMORPG market will eventually collapse on itself and break out into the small niche games. The longer WOW has a hold of the MMO industry, the longer players are kind of forced into playing a linear themepark game....and the stronger the chances are of market demand for more niche based solutions.
Comments
Compared to released sandbox games. Yes
Production value is one thing but gameplay is another.
Looking at the Xyson forums I see people excited and happy even though the production values aren't as high as a Red Dead Redemptiojn or Grand Theft Auto 4.
However they are discussing getting hammers or shovels or just chopping down wood and trading. Now, I applaud any type of different type of game play, no matter how esoteric it can get.
But convincing large developers to spend millions in a game where people are concentrating on how to make a shovel is going to be a hard sell.
Not to say all sandbox games have to be like this, it starts to conjure the thoughts of a friend of mine who said that SWG to him was like having a second job he didn't get paid for.
Some people like that nitty gritty crafting things from scratch, trading it, staking out territory, etc and some want complete adventure and don't want to chop wood and keep spread sheets on where the resources are and what the trading value is.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
and thats Why i have a niche Rolex (MMORPG) and you have a replica (wow)
replicas do sell much ,much more than original ones,but it doesnt mean that they are like originals,they may look like ones ,seller might told you that it is,but someday you will figure it out.
Generation P
Of course because, just like the theme park games that have released have not been delivering a quality product. Plain and simple. Look at Warhammer, Aion, LotR, Age of Conan, they are nothing to write home about. As I stated. If a game company would make a quality triple A theme park / sandbox game and had good game design and implentation...I bet it would be one of the hottest games going. It may not be a WoW killer, but any game that can keep 350k to 500K players subscribed here in the US and EU(EVE for example) should be considered successful.
Let's face it, theme park games any more are not making the cut. Players are getting tired of them and that is why they(the newer releases) are not doing so well here in the US and EU. They maybe doing well in Asia(like Aion), but in the US, not so good. It is time for something different, and I think many players would jump at the chance to play such a game - if it was designed right, with the same production values and quaility we see in those single player open world RPG's.
Didnt LOTR go free to play?
Warhammer is down to 2 US servers? Pretty close to Darkfall if I'm not mistaken
How much money you think was invested into AOC, as compared to say EvE?
Look, i'm not saying that Sandboxes are going to overtake Themeparks, but to say a sandbox with some good backing cant be a success is pretty naive imo.
Same thing can be said of theme park MMORPG's. If the game has bad game play and poor implentation of other game elements it is not going to succeed. Look at the recently released MMORPG's over the past few years. They looked good on paper and sounded wonderful. Then we played them and well, their subscription numbers here in the US and EU speak for themselves. A couple completely closed, some went free to play and others are currently on life support. Not a good batting average if you ask me.
That depend on how you define success. Able to make a profit? Able to compete with themeparks?. What's the ball park figure for success you think this genre can have.
EvE is as much of a success because it's a space MMO as it is because it's a sandbox btw. It really doesn't have any competition to really gauge based on it being a space MMO alone.
I don't know what a success is, I'm not a developer, or as you said an investor.. but i know what a success isn't.. and thats creating enough servers for what you consider to be a success, and the having server merges, or going free to play in the first 2-3 years of your games lifespan..
Which seems to becoming the norm...
As for EvE, if you can create a successful sandbox AND shy away from the given Sword and Sorcery of MMOs, you get even bigger kudos from me.. If it was a bad space game, it would be bad, regardless if it was a sandbox, or a themepark. People don't pay a monthly fee just so they can fly a pixelated spaceship ; )
I could also say that WoW is as much of a success because its accessible and high quality as it is because its a theme-park. Wonderful! I am glad that we have finally decoupled game style from their success potential.
Actually no, I think I'll bring success stories back into it. Rockstar, Notch, Zyngna and many others have created wildly successful sandbox games on nearly every platform and genre except MMORPG's. Why is it such a stretch of the imagination to realize that the same success could be found on a MMORPG.
Game development always lags demand. Even if one of these AAA developers decided all the way back in 2009 that they need to make a MMOSandbox game it would still be years before we hear about it and longer until we see it. For all we know there are a few top developers out there working on games like this right now. Hell, I know Richard Garriot is working on one. I know that Blizzard and Turbine are working on secret MMO projects. There are tons of high budget MMOG's in the works and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they move toward sandox open-world designs.
I'll clarify.
I'm not talking about "good game play vs bad game play".
First of all, that's subjective.
I"m talking about type of game play.
So with Xyson as an example, having to log in with no map and scour for materials so that you might be able to make a shovel can be incredible game play to some and a quizzical look from another.
However, I really don't get the sense that this type of game play, no matter how incredible it might be to some people, is going to draw AAA millions of dollars.
So if Xyson or another game had the most incredible implementation of their features I still don't think that large companies are going to give them a second look.
Now, I'm not saying there isn't a market for this. But there is a market for Free Jazz and i still don't think you will ever see sold out stadiums for that type of music.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think it's worth noting that I don't think that a sandbox CAN'T be successful, just that it's not a guarantee.
People who say 'sandboxes can never do well' are just as unreasonable as those who are saying 'a sandbox will automatically do well'
The facts are... well, the facts are that we simply don't know how a high-profile AAA sandbox would do in the post-WOW market, because there's none of them around. (EvE is around, but it doesn't have the same sort of budget or polish you'd expect from games like WoW, WAR, AoC, LotRO and so on...)
There are equally valid arguments for why one might fail, as there are for why one might succeed.
There's just not enough information. On a side note, it's worth pointing out that a sandbox non-MMO (Like Rockstar does) is at least as theme park (If not more) than your average MMORPG. The standards to make a game sandbox are completely different for MMOs vs. non-MMOs. Heck, if you could run right to left in Super Mario Bros., it would have TWICE as much freedom alone.
The most obvious reasons they haven't been dumping their money into sandbox games is that it's risky, investors hate risk. You might say 'All the failed sandboxes failed for COMPLETELY DIFFERENT reasons', but you can't point to something like WoW and say 'Well, see what sandboxes can become if successful?'. Then, everybody who releases a budget sandbox title ends up struggling, because people like to see polish in their games, and underfunded games have a hard time delivering that.
Yes, I'm fully aware that WoW is a complete outlier... its run away success is in no way indicative of normal MMORPG behavior, but it's a lot easier to sell 'We'll make WoW-like money by creating a game like it' rather than 'We'll make that sort of money by making a game completely unlike it' to investors.
... also, the AAA MMO industry hardly turns on a dime. You have to realize that games that aren't even released yet have been YEARS in production, and many of their essential design elements were nailed down a long time ago. They'd have to rebuild from the bottom up to change the game as drastically as 'from themepark to sandbox', and that's a really, really good way to end up like Duke Nukem... a punchline to a joke about delays, because of always attempting to change technology to match the present.
Farmville could have filled more than a few stadiums and its all about... farms. You might be surprised at how many people would get into making a shovel. Conflict and combat are actually detractors for many people, yet nearly every MMOG is focused on conflict. Providing more non-combat options might be the big key to success of the next generation of MMOG's. I don't want to speculate on it too much because honestly, Farmville surprised me. I never would have thought people would like farming so much.
and yet MILLIONS of players are willing to shelf out .. MUCH MORE money .. to play COD.
Plus, i don't think people are really crazy about farmville that much. Many play it because it is there. MIillions play freecell too. You can't argue gamers are clamoring for the gameplay of freecell.
Second-biggest browser-
It's worth pointing out that although Farmville has a grind, it's a different sort of grind than you see in sandbox games.
It's also not much of a game. Which so far as I can tell by looking at facebook games, is a large part of the charm. It's more of a lazy social networking pseudo-game with a large amount of carrots to give people a constant low level feeling of achievement. Oh, and it's free to play. With a cash shop. So you're saying F2P games are the wave of the future and should be the direction all MMORPGs should move towards?
Also, big headed cartoon kids. Should all MMOs move in that direction too? Are you willing to steal all the aspects of Farmville just to get a sandbox? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If you think being more like theme parks is dumbing down MMORPGs, take a long, serious look at yourself, and try saying with a straight face 'if MMORPGs were a lot more like Farmville, they'd be a much more intelligent genre.'
People aren't playing Farmville because it gives them a chance to really get into crafting and they really love the open freedom you have... they're playing it because it's on Facebook, their friends are playing it, it's INSANELY easy, and you are constantly rewarded for even the tritest of actions. The level of risk vs. reward and effort expended makes WoW look like getting a doctorate from Harvard when you're deaf, blind and mildly retarded.
I agree, Farmville is like what we do while waiting for a game to download or something, but for Facebookers. Facebookers don't go on facebook to play a game, they go on facebook to chat, farmville is what the do while waiting to chat, that's also why it's simple. Some people take it to the extreme, but that's everything.
-I want a Platformer MMO
I don't think farmville is about farms.
I think it's about a sort of social interaction between people that takes something as innocuous as a farm, creates a colorful "farm world" and allows people to interact with each other through what essentially a toy. knowing this forum I should clarify that that is not a "diss".
Farmville comes across as essentialy a toy or large party game.
Its appeal is in the context of facebook and its users and allows for another way to interact in a playful way.
A game like Xyson or perhaps UO or SWG (or pick your hardcore sandbox) is not going to appeal to a farmville player just because you can create your own farm.
Context is very important as well as presentation. They are different markets.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Even assuming you're 100% right, its still showing how a "toy or large party game" might expand the MMO genre. Making that shovel in Xyson is no different than you're explaination of Farmville. Getting enough players working together to make a farm in Xyson could build friendship and communities in a way that solo questing can't even compare with.
I typically use Farmville references to show that theme is not as important as people think it is and to show that sandbox features that require imagination are not automatically rejected by the mainstream.
Facebook analogies are very unpopular given the responses. Lets look at boardgaming. Agricola is one of the most popular board games of the last few years. Its a game about making a farm. Most of the top boardgames of the last decade have non-offending themes and try to minimize conflict with indirect interaction. Trading, town building, and shipping games are just as popular as games that focus on combat. Providing options like that in a MMOG would make it a sandbox game.
I'm not saying that Xyson is going to go well. What I am saying is that you could take a game like WoW and add things like farming, building, trading,and shipping, essentially turning it into a sandbox game with non-combat options and it would expand its playerbase.
But again, it's context and how it's done.
And some other ineffable "part" that might be hard to put one's finger on it. I say that because a game like SIMS is incredibly huge yet SIMS online crashed and burned.
People logging into facebook to be with friends that they actually know who interact on a variety of levels and who also think visiting each other's "farms" is fun and novel, especially if the game play can be done casually is far different from gathering resources and making a shovel in a hardcore sandbox game.
I would offer the idea (and I have no proof of this but it doesn't seem too far off) that farmville wouldn't have been as popular had it been released as a stand alone game.
Coupling it as part of the facebook package is really what makes it shine.
Farmville allows people who already know each other to interact on a fun and whimsical level.
These people would be interacting even if there wasn't a farmville.
You try getting essentially "non gamers" to log into EVE or Xyson or any sandbox game you choose and see if their experience is even close.
Farmville works because those people are already there and they already have relationships.
I'm not saying that getting together and growing a farm and having yoru friends visit it can't be entertaining. But there is a huge difference between "Sandbox MMO" and "Farmville on Facebook". And is Farmville free? i think it is. If it has a cash shop I don't know about it. So "free" helps as well.
Because by your thought we should be able to lure a huge amount of Farmville players to Xyson and give that struggling Indy developer a huge shot in the arm.
I just don't think the audiences are the same.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What I personally want is completely different than what would make a mainstream success.
You're absolutely right about most of this. People like to be lazy. They like to socialize. They like a large amount of carrots and the feeling of achievement. They don't like to spend money. In case you haven't noticed these are ALL trends in the more successful MMOG's of the last decade. If you want to expand the MMO market, that is the direction you need to go, NOT toward making it less accessible and more challenging.
I won't speculate on why people play Farmville. All I know is that there are hundreds of facebook games with hundreds of themes and they chose farms. It would be foolish to say that they play it only becuase its on facebook or that they don't care about it being about farms. Obviously something made them choose Farmville over the other games. If the theme was so offensive they had plenty of others to choose from.
BTW, the only facebook game I play is Dungeon Overlords which is pretty cool.
I don't thinnk it's popular because it's on facebook. I think it's popular because it's the "right game" on facebook. There's something about the world/gameplay that is appealing to facebook players.
again, I don't think it would be as popular if it was released separately and had a cash shop or some other way to make money.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I get your point and i won't disagree. It was just that in your example it sounded like you're saying that making a shovel automatically guarantees that it won't be a mainstream success. I have seen plenty of examples where a mundane task like this when shared with a community can be very successful. I never meant to suggest that casuals are suddenly going to like hardcore games just because they can make a shovel.
We have yet to see a highly polished accessible easy to use F2P sandbox MMOG that contains a neutral theme and is family friendly. Tie something like that into a social networking site and I'd eat my shorts if it didn't become a huge success!
Well... first of all.. there is no such thing as a theme park game... that is an incorrect term that is not used in the game industry by trained professionals.. there are many loose terms thrown around, but what your looking for is the term "Linear"... the post should be titled Linear gameplay vs sandbox gameplay.... and you need to understand all of the elements that go into an MMO like world of warcraft, or any other game out there right now like Age of Conan, Rift, Everquest 2, so on and so fourth. You need to understand what a hybrid build actually looks like and play through a game that is considered a hybrid of both Linear and Sandbox. before jumping to any conclusions about how a game is structured and what makes it good vs its peers.... I'll be writting up an essay here shortly on proper game design terms and understanding how things work from a game designers perspective :P
Sounds good in your head, but fails in application! give me your money and i'll make you a game that will consume the masses!
Well that's the thing, I don't think making the shovel is the issue. But the difference is making a shovel in Xyson and "making a shovel" (or whatever) in farmville.
I agree with your last paragraph.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Definitely! In addition to that, WoW probably would be even more successful if it were integrated into facebook. Keeping an existing social network improves any game. I mean, how many of your RL friends do you try to talk into playing your favorite MMORPG?
BTW, Farmville has a cash shop. There is currently a lot of controversy between facebook and Zynga over how they split the proceeds.
I think the underling factor is a bit deeper....and the "professionalisim" of the product is more of a symptom than it is a factor of failure.
The reason games like DarkFall, Mortal Online, Darktide (traditional sandbox MMORPGs) failed to some degree or the other is because they didn't have the development dollars and resources committed to the projects that were needed to create Toyota commercials for marketing, hire the best and brightest programmers, artists, and project managment personnel. This is where you stopped, but I'll take it a step further and then the sandbox vs. themepark will make a bit more sense.
The reason those games didn't have the time / money / resources was because not a single AAA game publisher wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot poll because the game does not appeal to a substantial enough percentage of the current MMORPG playerbase.
Since WOW is the gold standard for current MMORPGs and currently occupies the majority of the current MMORPG playerbase....then if it is not a game that appeals to the key demographic of WOW, then there isn't enough money to be made to warrent the time of the EAs, Blizzards, NCSofts of the world......YET.
If you read some of the early blogs and interviews of the WOW dev team.....you'll see that one of their main objectives was to increase subscription base by removing all of the parts of MMORPG gaming that turned off the biggest subsection of the overall gamer market.....the casual gamer.
So I disagree with what you said regarding Blizzard making a successful sandbox MMORPG. I have no doubt in my mind that if there was a company out there capable of creating a great sandbox......it would be Blizzard. What I am saying is.....had they done so, their subscriptions would be more on par of what EVE is drawing in instead of 13 million strong. Too few FPS gamers, Console Gamers, RPG Gamers, Social Media Gamers would have subscribed because the playstyle of a traditional MMORPG wouldn't be a good fit for how casual gamers consume entertainment.....specifically games.
So I think what we've seen happen is that the MMORPG market has sort of devolved into an enhanced RPG with multiplayer connectivity more than the genere evolving into deeper and more open ended fantasy worlds. Considering Blizzard's new project will more than likely succeed WOW than offer an alternative experience........the MMORPG market will eventually collapse on itself and break out into the small niche games. The longer WOW has a hold of the MMO industry, the longer players are kind of forced into playing a linear themepark game....and the stronger the chances are of market demand for more niche based solutions.