Good read and while I probably enjoyed it more because I agree, I ask the OP (and others I suppose)- can a game with that kind of depth be had when players demand the convenience mechanics of today (dungeon finders, flying mounts, instant travel, etc)? If so, how?
Well, first off, you need to find ways to have the convenience mechanics make sense within game lore. A science fiction game actually works pretty well to explain how dungeon finders and instant travel would work. If it makes more sense as part of the story, it isn't so immediately immersion breaking.
Then, you need to have tangible rewards for doing things the slower way. Make it a trade off... have it so you can be quick and dirty if you want, but for the full experience and various bonuses, you take your time.
Make the very act of slow travelling fun. Throw away fights and/or holding down the run key and going AFK are not actually fun. If somebody can run from point A to point B simply by setting autorun and taking a bathroom break, then it doesn't matter how immersion-adding it is, it's bad game design.
Auto Assault made travelling fun (Driving a car and jumping ramps and seeing if you can jump over a canyon can be pretty cool). Actual skillful riding mechanics might make mounts a lot more fun... save time by jumping over fences, dashing down hills, or whatever. Especially if you turn the throwaway mobs into sort of a fun built in minigame (Oh look, it's a monster I can easily kill... I'll just ride by him and... whack, lop his head off on the way) Doesn't matter if you get xp for that sort of thing, just the act of doing it would be fun. (Maybe it could add xp to some sort of riding skill, that allows better mounts or more advanced tricks. Feel free to insert 'hovercraft/car/whatever' in place of mount here, it's not the horse that's important, it's the idea of sped up travel)
Think about WHY people want convenience mechanics. For me at least, it's because I want to play games with my friends. That is PARAMOUNT in my gaming experience. I play games so I can play them with my friends. I'd rather play a crappy game with my friends, than a good game without them. Of course, optimally I play a great game with them, and win both ways. :P
So come up with ways to allow what people WANT from convenience mechanics, without breaking the world too much. One idea off the top of my head is... let's say you're in a fantasy game with slow travel. No teleporting, you're doing low fantasy here.
... now you want to team up with your friend who is a 30 minute run and a 40 minute boat ride away. How about have mercenary houses spread across the game world. You can walk into one, your friend walks into one, you go into 'play as mercenary' mode, and they recruit you. It's not ACTUALLY your character, it's some random mercenary with approximate skills (maybe slightly deleveled). Story-wise, your character is earning money by renting himself out as a mercenary, and it just COINCIDENTALLY happens to be the same rate you earn money as the mercenary you're playing on your friend's team.
I mean, that idea is really rough and sloppy and could be touched up, but I thought it up in 30 seconds. My whole point is that it's not an impossible task to have convenience AND immersion and a deep world.
Probably the largest factor is the mystery. Someone gives you a quest to get a black mamba skin from Nektulos Forest. Where is Nektulos Forest? Where in Nektulos Forest are the black mambas? What level are they and how do they fight? Do I need a group? Am I going to receive a worthwhile unique item for a reward or some money or some trash item? Is this a quick standalone quest or the first step in a larger epic quest? (The first step of the quest for SoulFire is literally just delivering a letter to a guard.)
Compare this to any modern MMO where the quest givers light up like lighthouses, the reward is always shown and is always appropriate, the difficulty level is always appropriate, the target mobs are always nearby and marked.
soe did this for one reason?progression !any that dont know this game might play first few hour till he access the world map when they see the world map and hear :thats only part of the world you see.player get like :what i dont have time for this!but in splitting it expension to expension it a way less big chunk for a starting player and since there will be only one server like this a lot rasier to pick server and be with player!i know i both this game last year 16 expension and when i saw the world i was like wtf.it felt like a solo game not because its empty but because the world is big and people are spread this server will bring people toguetter like it hasnt happen in a long time!
Good read and while I probably enjoyed it more because I agree, I ask the OP (and others I suppose)- can a game with that kind of depth be had when players demand the convenience mechanics of today (dungeon finders, flying mounts, instant travel, etc)? If so, how?
It can because of one thing you have to build it how EQ did you build the game for the community meaning you have them work together from the start the players that ruin the experience for the rest will find out real quick how to be exiled by the community in either have to switch servers or start a alt and change there attitude.
The whole reason EQ was as good as it was because you didnt have thease clowns and if they were there like i said above they will find themseld royally alone and that is not a good thing. You were taught to work together and learn your class to 100% with no slacking. If someone seen you dead they would throw you a rez without even asking you if you wanted one or thow buffs onto you without asking if you need one or thow you a heal without asking if you need one and expect 0 in return.
In s many ways it cant work in todays standards as well because people will want to have easy mode as well because thats what has been drilled into there head if they come into this game demaniding a dungeion finder tool that automatically loses a few things to the player you lose the world feeling of adventure and you lose the community sure your grouping with people but its across so many diffrent servers. so many things changed and it will be really hard to pull off but it can be done but the devs have to stick to there guns and not listen to the whiners because they will be more respected for it and they will end up on top because they have to design there game not have the comunity design theres for them.
Flying mounts are just Fluff they made traveling easy and faster but do you really need it it takes away from the world as well because you lose the sence of adventure. Instant travel we had that back then with ports and when PoP came out we had the PoK port stones and it did take away from the immersion a little as people would now not need to ask others for ports they would just use the stones.
i can go on and on about how it could work and how it cant work but it will take someone who dosnt care about the $ to try and do it and you will need brad Mcquaid as a guide on how to pull it off .
kazlin!ill do the counter part!i listened today to the 3 tube of soe on youtube!stream?couldnt be easier right ,i mean average joe player can stream in wow ,using vent at the same time and speaking to us to in xfire live chat
so you would expect a simple tube news of everquest to be smooth?they couldnt even get that right?so imagine the game soe output?it is rarelly smooth.i dont care if soe have to use donnybrook or p2p or watever futur techno to make their stuff smooth,buy eve style server if you have issue but for crying outloud fix it?stream is the most basic thing in gaming everybody take it for granted .so when you see a place like live.twit.tv stream in hd a skype feed (with their paltry ressourcethey have)outshine the giant that is soe im sorry but someone at soe isnt speaking any earthling are speaking!i dont pinpoint everquest team because everytitle from soe have these issue its a soe problem they need to fix!
I've tried over and over and over again to try and explain this.
The 1st generation mmos were created by gamers, gamers who had no idea how to do what they wanted to do. They wanted to turn their imaginations, their dream worlds into real worlds we all could share. It was not about becoming gazillionairs, it was not about making some huge massive success, it was simply about turning a dream into a reality.
There were no game developer tech schools turning out thousands of mindless lemming game developers like there are now. First gen game developers had to achieve success through hundreds of failures, thousands of experiments, and everyone found a different way to build a mousetrap.
Now all game designers learn the exact same code from the exact same text year after year after year, they aren't designers they are human code copiers, with 90% of them are incapable of any form of free and creative thinking. That's why when something new, some new bug that has never shown its head before emerges, game designers have no clue how to fix it. Because they do not have the skill set, the texts dont have the answers.
Hence we are stuck in an industry regurgitating the same old tired crap over and over and over again, Until the real gamers, the nerds and geeks rise up and take back gaming and game design we are going to continue down this same crappy path.
Good read and while I probably enjoyed it more because I agree, I ask the OP (and others I suppose)- can a game with that kind of depth be had when players demand the convenience mechanics of today (dungeon finders, flying mounts, instant travel, etc)? If so, how?
Sure! Why not? All those "conveniences" do is bring you to the action faster. Still keep the depth of classes, difficult mobs, fluff, collections, housing, alternate advacement models, etc. but make things easier to get to or do in the sense of not wasting my time just sitting in a city waiting on a group. All people want to do is PLAY not work but I think old school mechanics with a few tweaks here and there can still be used and the grand scope of depth consistent with old games as well.
Vanguard has shown me a small taste of that. But now throw tons of devs at the game and all that we have learned in the last 10 years and boom we have great MMORPGs with that old school immersion and fun factor. Problem is, it seems devs these days are slicing the depth and challenge off of the games while applying dungeon finders, flying mounts etc. I personally don't understand why they slice the content depth.
another example, take WoW's dungeon finder. Throw it into any mmorpg and I think it would help not hurt the game. Especially certain games that need it like Lotro or VG. But you can also put some limitations on dungeon finders like allowing you to form a group for a dungeon anywhere in the world but maybe you would still need to travel to or from there on your own.
Anyway, I personally think it can be done and needs to be done. Add that to how Dynamic content is going to change the genre and we could finally be in a new era of MMORPGs, the "true" next generation if you will. It's just going to take a company who isn't afraid to keep old school mechanics without changing them so far that they erase all depth and challenge.
These older style games are no longer being made because people want the IWIN button. Now just think pretty much everyone in America has interent access. You got moms and teens that are only on facebook right now but they will want to graduate from facebook games and try these games out. Most of them will bitch and complain about these older games being to hard. I mean find a actual tough game on facebook. People want instant gratification, sad but true. Another sad thing is people will pay for it also rather than putting in work for it. I don't blame those people ( I really do) I blame society for making things too easy and basing everything off money. /end rant.
so far the only game that attract casual gamer is facebook style game!is epic mmo like everquest or wow to big for them?eq is in the right direction i think in trying casualise eq without nerfing the content .we ll have to wait and see .
I didn't realize until I read this thread how rare it really is to find someone that wasn't a "mmo vet" and decided to take a walk in our shoes to see what all the fuss is about.
It is definitely frustrating to be in love with mmorpg's for years and pride yourself on your dedication to the genre, only to watch developers get replaced by newer, younger, fresh out of school developers that just want to turn the games into something more flashy and easy to get into.
There really is no simple way to explain the perspective to newer MMO players because, as stated in a couple different ways before, they grew up on console titles and immediate access to the internet, where as most of us 'vets' didn't have things handed to us in our gaming, so the push to succeed in and of itself was a major part of the nostalgia.
I'm sorry, but, I am pretty sure that back when EQ and DAoC and AO and UO were in their prime, the community wasn't crying out about how the developers and their investors are ruining their games because they want to profit more and more and more. I don't think any mmo vet can disagree with this general outlook.
Yes, business is business, but not all business has to be so heartless and disconnected from their supporters.
money money money money was not what it was all about when we started playing these games. That issue didn't spawn until the elephant in the room started pulling in millions of subs and making the other companies think they were doing something "wrong"
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
I've tried over and over and over again to try and explain this.
The 1st generation mmos were created by gamers, gamers who had no idea how to do what they wanted to do. They wanted to turn their imaginations, their dream worlds into real worlds we all could share. It was not about becoming gazillionairs, it was not about making some huge massive success, it was simply about turning a dream into a reality.
There were no game developer tech schools turning out thousands of mindless lemming game developers like there are now. First gen game developers had to achieve success through hundreds of failures, thousands of experiments, and everyone found a different way to build a mousetrap.
Now all game designers learn the exact same code from the exact same text year after year after year, they aren't designers they are human code copiers, with 90% of them are incapable of any form of free and creative thinking. That's why when something new, some new bug that has never shown its head before emerges, game designers have no clue how to fix it. Because they do not have the skill set, the texts dont have the answers.
Hence we are stuck in an industry regurgitating the same old tired crap over and over and over again, Until the real gamers, the nerds and geeks rise up and take back gaming and game design we are going to continue down this same crappy path.
*stands with a fist firmly raised* yes.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Vanguard showed promise, and could've possibly turned out better had they actually finished the game before launching it. I played on the FFA PvP server when it launched with VG and it was an absolute blast. True, Sigil/SOE sucked at PvP balancing, the game engine was a huge mess, and they totally ignored PvP once the game came out. But it was fun and showed just how much fun it could've been if there were at least a couple of devs that knew what the heck they were doing in terms of PvP tweaks & balances.
We need a game that's a true updated EQ, that's not EQ2, not Vanguard since it's already outdated (it's 4 years old!). Everquest Next possibly can be that. If anything we know EQ Next is going to take the Everquest franchise out of being a zoning game, meaning it's going seamless for the first time. That's going to be a big huge plus. I'm not one of those die hards that want to bring back 1999. But just as I don't want all the tedium of 1999, I don't want all the I-Win buttons of 2011 either. If they can strike a fairly good balance, and come out with a FFA PvP server as well as a "hardcore" PvE ruleset server like they said they possibly would, then I think Everquest Next will cater plenty well for any seasoned vets. It's a game I'll be watching for that's for sure.
But for now, it's Fippy Darkpaw time. Tomorrow, 10am pst, be there. It'll be fun with tons of people running around like it's a new game just launched, and there will be plenty of nostalgia...tthat warm & fuzzy feeling people have been searching for!
i dont mind loading time !but gees cant they update the speed of their server?SSD would be nice in raid 10 configuration.no more 2 week loading time!i dont care about load time soe has big server and technical issue releated to their server etc once they fix those everything from eq1 to dc should play way smoother.
I've tried over and over and over again to try and explain this.
The 1st generation mmos were created by gamers, gamers who had no idea how to do what they wanted to do. They wanted to turn their imaginations, their dream worlds into real worlds we all could share. It was not about becoming gazillionairs, it was not about making some huge massive success, it was simply about turning a dream into a reality.
There were no game developer tech schools turning out thousands of mindless lemming game developers like there are now. First gen game developers had to achieve success through hundreds of failures, thousands of experiments, and everyone found a different way to build a mousetrap.
Now all game designers learn the exact same code from the exact same text year after year after year, they aren't designers they are human code copiers, with 90% of them are incapable of any form of free and creative thinking. That's why when something new, some new bug that has never shown its head before emerges, game designers have no clue how to fix it. Because they do not have the skill set, the texts dont have the answers.
Hence we are stuck in an industry regurgitating the same old tired crap over and over and over again, Until the real gamers, the nerds and geeks rise up and take back gaming and game design we are going to continue down this same crappy path.
No, not even close to being accurate. The idea that the programmers of the 1st gen MMOs were superior to the current crop is, frankly, a joke. The major bugs present throughout Year 1 of EQ would make your head spin. Give me one single example from any MMO where the programmers had no clue how to fix a new bug that's never been seen before because they were incapable of free and creative thinking. You're pulling this claim out of your ass, and in the process you are insulting an awful lot of people who are currently successful game programmers.
The state of the industry is largely due to the demands and spending habits of the majority... a majority that doesn't include me or you or probably anyone who reads this thread.
i dont mind loading time !but gees cant they update the speed of their server?SSD would be nice in raid 10 configuration.no more 2 week loading time!i dont care about load time soe has big server and technical issue releated to their server etc once they fix those everything from eq1 to dc should play way smoother.
I dont have long loading times im sorry you do but i know i dont it takes me 5 secs the most to load from one zone to another and im sure on flippys launch it will be a little longer because of the people and server loads considering there will be over 3K people all loging on and playing the server so load times i see going from 5 secs to maybe 20 or 30 the most thats not long at all.
No, not even close to being accurate. The idea that the programmers of the 1st gen MMOs were superior to the current crop is, frankly, a joke. The major bugs present throughout Year 1 of EQ would make your head spin. Give me one single example from any MMO where the programmers had no clue how to fix a new bug that's never been seen before because they were incapable of free and creative thinking. You're pulling this claim out of your ass, and in the process you are insulting an awful lot of people who are currently successful game programmers.
The state of the industry is largely due to the demands and spending habits of the majority... a majority that doesn't include me or you or probably anyone who reads this thread.
Dude take your industry profit and demand statistics, and projected fiscal income reports and go become an accountant. Take these businessmen posing as game developers with you.
I can't stress enough how tired I am of it coming down to this. We're not stupid, we know how business works. Focusing on that aspect of the genre is exactly what broke it.
yes, we know developers and investors want to profit as much as possible, and that the majority of people are lazy, stupid, and uninterested in the depth of what these games used to be, hence causing the investors to market towards them... DOES THAT MAKE IT OK??
I think one of the issues is that the developers, investors, producers, and especially, the players, have lost sight that videogames in general were a digital interractive artform. Artistic talent doesn't work well when only fueled by greed.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
never actually played eq back when(was an ac addict) but i really hope the new server takes off and stays busy for a longtime for all u nostalgia hunters:).
just wish i could actually get by the router probs and play my first online addiction again.
So I serve notice to any devs reading this: YOU HAD IT RIGHT THE 1st TIME! #%$) WOW!
I just recently stumbled upon a DAOC free shard and got it setup just for the nostalgia factor. Man, if they just took DAOC (pre-TOA) and updated the graphics engine and made a few interface tweeks I think the game could make a huge comback.
Even though I am only in the weee levels, there was a relic raid and there was just excitement in the chat about it, total sense of community.
Probably wishful thinking.. but there are so many little things in the game that today's MMO's don't have. Like a serious Day/Night cycle, where using the "Torch" is totally needed. Downtime!!! Yes, thats right, I like the idea of having to rest every few pulls, gives you time to chat with your groupmates and build an *gasp* community!
Someone else said it best.. The older generation of MMO's were more like RPG's, todays MMO's are "arcade" style, theme park rides.
Oh well, I will always look back on DAOC and SWG with fondness, for the game and the community it created.
Dude take your industry profit and demand statistics, and projected fiscal income reports and go become an accountant. Take these businessmen posing as game developers with you.
I can't stress enough how tired I am of it coming down to this. We're not stupid, we know how business works. Focusing on that aspect of the genre is exactly what broke it.
yes, we know developers and investors want to profit as much as possible, and that the majority of people are lazy, stupid, and uninterested in the depth of what these games used to be, hence causing the investors to market towards them... DOES THAT MAKE IT OK??
I think one of the issues is that the developers, investors, producers, and especially, the players, have lost sight that videogames in general were a digital interractive artform. Artistic talent doesn't work well when only fueled by greed.
I admit defeat. You have an excellent point there: everyone knows that video game developers got into that field because that's where the money is. Not because they have been playing games since kindergarten, not because they can't wait to hear people talk about how much they love to play a game that they helped make. No, it's because that's where the money is. My heart bleeds for all those poor penniless programmers at Microsoft and Google, reduced to living in the cold under a leaky roof and eating undercooked ramen just so they could follow their heart instead of becoming a soulless maker of *shudder* video games.
Dude take your industry profit and demand statistics, and projected fiscal income reports and go become an accountant. Take these businessmen posing as game developers with you.
I can't stress enough how tired I am of it coming down to this. We're not stupid, we know how business works. Focusing on that aspect of the genre is exactly what broke it.
yes, we know developers and investors want to profit as much as possible, and that the majority of people are lazy, stupid, and uninterested in the depth of what these games used to be, hence causing the investors to market towards them... DOES THAT MAKE IT OK??
I think one of the issues is that the developers, investors, producers, and especially, the players, have lost sight that videogames in general were a digital interractive artform. Artistic talent doesn't work well when only fueled by greed.
I admit defeat. You have an excellent point there: everyone knows that video game developers got into that field because that's where the money is. Not because they have been playing games since kindergarten, not because they can't wait to hear people talk about how much they love to play a game that they helped make. No, it's because that's where the money is. My heart bleeds for all those poor penniless programmers at Microsoft and Google, reduced to living in the cold under a leaky roof and eating undercooked ramen just so they could follow their heart instead of becoming a soulless maker of *shudder* video games.
Ok, the level of sarcasm pushed me to re-read our posts (yours and mine) -- I do apologize for the tone and seemingly attacking you. For the record, I was wrong to be so contentious.
Also, I agree that business is business, and people get into high profit industries for that exact reason. High profit ratio.
All I'm saying is, MMORPGs were not part of that disgusting corperate playground until ONE game brought in stellar amounts of sales, subscriptions, and hype to the foreground. High profit industry was not what many developers were concerned with when they started creating virtual emersive worlds for us. It was more of a "hey that would be a pretty cool job. I could do that. I could make a living doing this and be happy" approach back before 2003-2004. Now, MMO's are for sure a High Profit industry, and we see by the products coming out that the approach is clearly about making huge amounts of money as fast as possible.
There's a big difference between "oh I don't want to eat undercooked ramen under a leaky roof so I can make my dream come to life in this videogame" and "that company made a crapload of money by doing this ___. Let's do that too so we can all drive a Ferrari."
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
That's how I feel about older games like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, and SWG (pre-CU). Newer games lack sandbox play and player freedom. Games like Uncharted Waters Online and Eve Online keep me into playing MMORPGs today, but it is not the same as when I started playing the aformentionned classics. The classics generally went to crap with updates that actually dumb-down the game, gold-farming, and massive bot usage that rendered leveling, item collection, and in-game currency as meaningless. Sorry for the pessimism, but that's how I feel after playing MMORPGs for more than a decade.
I think everyone had a game that made them fall in love with the MMO genre and everyone's main focus with new games is to find that same experience again. I think it will always lead to disappointment.
EQ unrelated.. but that always reminds me of the time in AO Temple of Thee Winds where me as agent and friends as enforcer, at the lvl cap, twinked for PvP were there train busting. Nothing better then seeing a few noobs run from the horde chasing us, then we turn around and blast it to pieces. :P
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
Aphonic, you definately have a point there. I tend to judge all MMORPGs on my first experiences with Asheron's Call. Man I swear, those were the days...
Comments
Well, first off, you need to find ways to have the convenience mechanics make sense within game lore. A science fiction game actually works pretty well to explain how dungeon finders and instant travel would work. If it makes more sense as part of the story, it isn't so immediately immersion breaking.
Then, you need to have tangible rewards for doing things the slower way. Make it a trade off... have it so you can be quick and dirty if you want, but for the full experience and various bonuses, you take your time.
Make the very act of slow travelling fun. Throw away fights and/or holding down the run key and going AFK are not actually fun. If somebody can run from point A to point B simply by setting autorun and taking a bathroom break, then it doesn't matter how immersion-adding it is, it's bad game design.
Auto Assault made travelling fun (Driving a car and jumping ramps and seeing if you can jump over a canyon can be pretty cool). Actual skillful riding mechanics might make mounts a lot more fun... save time by jumping over fences, dashing down hills, or whatever. Especially if you turn the throwaway mobs into sort of a fun built in minigame (Oh look, it's a monster I can easily kill... I'll just ride by him and... whack, lop his head off on the way) Doesn't matter if you get xp for that sort of thing, just the act of doing it would be fun. (Maybe it could add xp to some sort of riding skill, that allows better mounts or more advanced tricks. Feel free to insert 'hovercraft/car/whatever' in place of mount here, it's not the horse that's important, it's the idea of sped up travel)
Think about WHY people want convenience mechanics. For me at least, it's because I want to play games with my friends. That is PARAMOUNT in my gaming experience. I play games so I can play them with my friends. I'd rather play a crappy game with my friends, than a good game without them. Of course, optimally I play a great game with them, and win both ways. :P
So come up with ways to allow what people WANT from convenience mechanics, without breaking the world too much. One idea off the top of my head is... let's say you're in a fantasy game with slow travel. No teleporting, you're doing low fantasy here.
... now you want to team up with your friend who is a 30 minute run and a 40 minute boat ride away. How about have mercenary houses spread across the game world. You can walk into one, your friend walks into one, you go into 'play as mercenary' mode, and they recruit you. It's not ACTUALLY your character, it's some random mercenary with approximate skills (maybe slightly deleveled). Story-wise, your character is earning money by renting himself out as a mercenary, and it just COINCIDENTALLY happens to be the same rate you earn money as the mercenary you're playing on your friend's team.
I mean, that idea is really rough and sloppy and could be touched up, but I thought it up in 30 seconds. My whole point is that it's not an impossible task to have convenience AND immersion and a deep world.
Probably the largest factor is the mystery. Someone gives you a quest to get a black mamba skin from Nektulos Forest. Where is Nektulos Forest? Where in Nektulos Forest are the black mambas? What level are they and how do they fight? Do I need a group? Am I going to receive a worthwhile unique item for a reward or some money or some trash item? Is this a quick standalone quest or the first step in a larger epic quest? (The first step of the quest for SoulFire is literally just delivering a letter to a guard.)
Compare this to any modern MMO where the quest givers light up like lighthouses, the reward is always shown and is always appropriate, the difficulty level is always appropriate, the target mobs are always nearby and marked.
soe did this for one reason?progression !any that dont know this game might play first few hour till he access the world map when they see the world map and hear :thats only part of the world you see.player get like :what i dont have time for this!but in splitting it expension to expension it a way less big chunk for a starting player and since there will be only one server like this a lot rasier to pick server and be with player!i know i both this game last year 16 expension and when i saw the world i was like wtf.it felt like a solo game not because its empty but because the world is big and people are spread this server will bring people toguetter like it hasnt happen in a long time!
It can because of one thing you have to build it how EQ did you build the game for the community meaning you have them work together from the start the players that ruin the experience for the rest will find out real quick how to be exiled by the community in either have to switch servers or start a alt and change there attitude.
The whole reason EQ was as good as it was because you didnt have thease clowns and if they were there like i said above they will find themseld royally alone and that is not a good thing. You were taught to work together and learn your class to 100% with no slacking. If someone seen you dead they would throw you a rez without even asking you if you wanted one or thow buffs onto you without asking if you need one or thow you a heal without asking if you need one and expect 0 in return.
In s many ways it cant work in todays standards as well because people will want to have easy mode as well because thats what has been drilled into there head if they come into this game demaniding a dungeion finder tool that automatically loses a few things to the player you lose the world feeling of adventure and you lose the community sure your grouping with people but its across so many diffrent servers. so many things changed and it will be really hard to pull off but it can be done but the devs have to stick to there guns and not listen to the whiners because they will be more respected for it and they will end up on top because they have to design there game not have the comunity design theres for them.
Flying mounts are just Fluff they made traveling easy and faster but do you really need it it takes away from the world as well because you lose the sence of adventure. Instant travel we had that back then with ports and when PoP came out we had the PoK port stones and it did take away from the immersion a little as people would now not need to ask others for ports they would just use the stones.
i can go on and on about how it could work and how it cant work but it will take someone who dosnt care about the $ to try and do it and you will need brad Mcquaid as a guide on how to pull it off .
kazlin!ill do the counter part!i listened today to the 3 tube of soe on youtube!stream?couldnt be easier right ,i mean average joe player can stream in wow ,using vent at the same time and speaking to us to in xfire live chat
so you would expect a simple tube news of everquest to be smooth?they couldnt even get that right?so imagine the game soe output?it is rarelly smooth.i dont care if soe have to use donnybrook or p2p or watever futur techno to make their stuff smooth,buy eve style server if you have issue but for crying outloud fix it?stream is the most basic thing in gaming everybody take it for granted .so when you see a place like live.twit.tv stream in hd a skype feed (with their paltry ressourcethey have)outshine the giant that is soe im sorry but someone at soe isnt speaking any earthling are speaking!i dont pinpoint everquest team because everytitle from soe have these issue its a soe problem they need to fix!
I've tried over and over and over again to try and explain this.
The 1st generation mmos were created by gamers, gamers who had no idea how to do what they wanted to do. They wanted to turn their imaginations, their dream worlds into real worlds we all could share. It was not about becoming gazillionairs, it was not about making some huge massive success, it was simply about turning a dream into a reality.
There were no game developer tech schools turning out thousands of mindless lemming game developers like there are now. First gen game developers had to achieve success through hundreds of failures, thousands of experiments, and everyone found a different way to build a mousetrap.
Now all game designers learn the exact same code from the exact same text year after year after year, they aren't designers they are human code copiers, with 90% of them are incapable of any form of free and creative thinking. That's why when something new, some new bug that has never shown its head before emerges, game designers have no clue how to fix it. Because they do not have the skill set, the texts dont have the answers.
Hence we are stuck in an industry regurgitating the same old tired crap over and over and over again, Until the real gamers, the nerds and geeks rise up and take back gaming and game design we are going to continue down this same crappy path.
Sure! Why not? All those "conveniences" do is bring you to the action faster. Still keep the depth of classes, difficult mobs, fluff, collections, housing, alternate advacement models, etc. but make things easier to get to or do in the sense of not wasting my time just sitting in a city waiting on a group. All people want to do is PLAY not work but I think old school mechanics with a few tweaks here and there can still be used and the grand scope of depth consistent with old games as well.
Vanguard has shown me a small taste of that. But now throw tons of devs at the game and all that we have learned in the last 10 years and boom we have great MMORPGs with that old school immersion and fun factor. Problem is, it seems devs these days are slicing the depth and challenge off of the games while applying dungeon finders, flying mounts etc. I personally don't understand why they slice the content depth.
another example, take WoW's dungeon finder. Throw it into any mmorpg and I think it would help not hurt the game. Especially certain games that need it like Lotro or VG. But you can also put some limitations on dungeon finders like allowing you to form a group for a dungeon anywhere in the world but maybe you would still need to travel to or from there on your own.
Anyway, I personally think it can be done and needs to be done. Add that to how Dynamic content is going to change the genre and we could finally be in a new era of MMORPGs, the "true" next generation if you will. It's just going to take a company who isn't afraid to keep old school mechanics without changing them so far that they erase all depth and challenge.
These older style games are no longer being made because people want the IWIN button. Now just think pretty much everyone in America has interent access. You got moms and teens that are only on facebook right now but they will want to graduate from facebook games and try these games out. Most of them will bitch and complain about these older games being to hard. I mean find a actual tough game on facebook. People want instant gratification, sad but true. Another sad thing is people will pay for it also rather than putting in work for it. I don't blame those people ( I really do) I blame society for making things too easy and basing everything off money. /end rant.
TL:DR: I miss the old games too
so far the only game that attract casual gamer is facebook style game!is epic mmo like everquest or wow to big for them?eq is in the right direction i think in trying casualise eq without nerfing the content .we ll have to wait and see .
Just wanted to give my kudos to the OP --
I didn't realize until I read this thread how rare it really is to find someone that wasn't a "mmo vet" and decided to take a walk in our shoes to see what all the fuss is about.
It is definitely frustrating to be in love with mmorpg's for years and pride yourself on your dedication to the genre, only to watch developers get replaced by newer, younger, fresh out of school developers that just want to turn the games into something more flashy and easy to get into.
There really is no simple way to explain the perspective to newer MMO players because, as stated in a couple different ways before, they grew up on console titles and immediate access to the internet, where as most of us 'vets' didn't have things handed to us in our gaming, so the push to succeed in and of itself was a major part of the nostalgia.
I'm sorry, but, I am pretty sure that back when EQ and DAoC and AO and UO were in their prime, the community wasn't crying out about how the developers and their investors are ruining their games because they want to profit more and more and more. I don't think any mmo vet can disagree with this general outlook.
Yes, business is business, but not all business has to be so heartless and disconnected from their supporters.
money money money money was not what it was all about when we started playing these games. That issue didn't spawn until the elephant in the room started pulling in millions of subs and making the other companies think they were doing something "wrong"
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
*stands with a fist firmly raised* yes.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Vanguard showed promise, and could've possibly turned out better had they actually finished the game before launching it. I played on the FFA PvP server when it launched with VG and it was an absolute blast. True, Sigil/SOE sucked at PvP balancing, the game engine was a huge mess, and they totally ignored PvP once the game came out. But it was fun and showed just how much fun it could've been if there were at least a couple of devs that knew what the heck they were doing in terms of PvP tweaks & balances.
We need a game that's a true updated EQ, that's not EQ2, not Vanguard since it's already outdated (it's 4 years old!). Everquest Next possibly can be that. If anything we know EQ Next is going to take the Everquest franchise out of being a zoning game, meaning it's going seamless for the first time. That's going to be a big huge plus. I'm not one of those die hards that want to bring back 1999. But just as I don't want all the tedium of 1999, I don't want all the I-Win buttons of 2011 either. If they can strike a fairly good balance, and come out with a FFA PvP server as well as a "hardcore" PvE ruleset server like they said they possibly would, then I think Everquest Next will cater plenty well for any seasoned vets. It's a game I'll be watching for that's for sure.
But for now, it's Fippy Darkpaw time. Tomorrow, 10am pst, be there. It'll be fun with tons of people running around like it's a new game just launched, and there will be plenty of nostalgia...tthat warm & fuzzy feeling people have been searching for!
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
i dont mind loading time !but gees cant they update the speed of their server?SSD would be nice in raid 10 configuration.no more 2 week loading time!i dont care about load time soe has big server and technical issue releated to their server etc once they fix those everything from eq1 to dc should play way smoother.
No, not even close to being accurate. The idea that the programmers of the 1st gen MMOs were superior to the current crop is, frankly, a joke. The major bugs present throughout Year 1 of EQ would make your head spin. Give me one single example from any MMO where the programmers had no clue how to fix a new bug that's never been seen before because they were incapable of free and creative thinking. You're pulling this claim out of your ass, and in the process you are insulting an awful lot of people who are currently successful game programmers.
The state of the industry is largely due to the demands and spending habits of the majority... a majority that doesn't include me or you or probably anyone who reads this thread.
I dont have long loading times
im sorry you do but i know i dont it takes me 5 secs the most to load from one zone to another and im sure on flippys launch it will be a little longer because of the people and server loads considering there will be over 3K people all loging on and playing the server so load times i see going from 5 secs to maybe 20 or 30 the most thats not long at all.
ya if all exeq player got a free week like i did i bet eq will have a lot of player!CHEER!
Dude take your industry profit and demand statistics, and projected fiscal income reports and go become an accountant. Take these businessmen posing as game developers with you.
I can't stress enough how tired I am of it coming down to this. We're not stupid, we know how business works. Focusing on that aspect of the genre is exactly what broke it.
yes, we know developers and investors want to profit as much as possible, and that the majority of people are lazy, stupid, and uninterested in the depth of what these games used to be, hence causing the investors to market towards them... DOES THAT MAKE IT OK??
I think one of the issues is that the developers, investors, producers, and especially, the players, have lost sight that videogames in general were a digital interractive artform. Artistic talent doesn't work well when only fueled by greed.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
never actually played eq back when(was an ac addict) but i really hope the new server takes off and stays busy for a longtime for all u nostalgia hunters:).
just wish i could actually get by the router probs and play my first online addiction again.
I just recently stumbled upon a DAOC free shard and got it setup just for the nostalgia factor. Man, if they just took DAOC (pre-TOA) and updated the graphics engine and made a few interface tweeks I think the game could make a huge comback.
Even though I am only in the weee levels, there was a relic raid and there was just excitement in the chat about it, total sense of community.
Probably wishful thinking.. but there are so many little things in the game that today's MMO's don't have. Like a serious Day/Night cycle, where using the "Torch" is totally needed. Downtime!!! Yes, thats right, I like the idea of having to rest every few pulls, gives you time to chat with your groupmates and build an *gasp* community!
Someone else said it best.. The older generation of MMO's were more like RPG's, todays MMO's are "arcade" style, theme park rides.
Oh well, I will always look back on DAOC and SWG with fondness, for the game and the community it created.
I admit defeat. You have an excellent point there: everyone knows that video game developers got into that field because that's where the money is. Not because they have been playing games since kindergarten, not because they can't wait to hear people talk about how much they love to play a game that they helped make. No, it's because that's where the money is. My heart bleeds for all those poor penniless programmers at Microsoft and Google, reduced to living in the cold under a leaky roof and eating undercooked ramen just so they could follow their heart instead of becoming a soulless maker of *shudder* video games.
Ok, the level of sarcasm pushed me to re-read our posts (yours and mine) -- I do apologize for the tone and seemingly attacking you. For the record, I was wrong to be so contentious.
Also, I agree that business is business, and people get into high profit industries for that exact reason. High profit ratio.
All I'm saying is, MMORPGs were not part of that disgusting corperate playground until ONE game brought in stellar amounts of sales, subscriptions, and hype to the foreground. High profit industry was not what many developers were concerned with when they started creating virtual emersive worlds for us. It was more of a "hey that would be a pretty cool job. I could do that. I could make a living doing this and be happy" approach back before 2003-2004. Now, MMO's are for sure a High Profit industry, and we see by the products coming out that the approach is clearly about making huge amounts of money as fast as possible.
There's a big difference between "oh I don't want to eat undercooked ramen under a leaky roof so I can make my dream come to life in this videogame" and "that company made a crapload of money by doing this ___. Let's do that too so we can all drive a Ferrari."
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
That's how I feel about older games like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, and SWG (pre-CU). Newer games lack sandbox play and player freedom. Games like Uncharted Waters Online and Eve Online keep me into playing MMORPGs today, but it is not the same as when I started playing the aformentionned classics. The classics generally went to crap with updates that actually dumb-down the game, gold-farming, and massive bot usage that rendered leveling, item collection, and in-game currency as meaningless. Sorry for the pessimism, but that's how I feel after playing MMORPGs for more than a decade.
Cheers
I think everyone had a game that made them fall in love with the MMO genre and everyone's main focus with new games is to find that same experience again. I think it will always lead to disappointment.
EQ unrelated.. but that always reminds me of the time in AO Temple of Thee Winds where me as agent and friends as enforcer, at the lvl cap, twinked for PvP were there train busting. Nothing better then seeing a few noobs run from the horde chasing us, then we turn around and blast it to pieces. :P
Aphonic, you definately have a point there. I tend to judge all MMORPGs on my first experiences with Asheron's Call. Man I swear, those were the days...