Indeed and then there is the way these games age, having brought little fresh or original to the table themselves aside from the superficial adherence to their IP they age very badly. The massive front loaded investment in developing a game or mmo has no way of existing on the f2p model (people absurdly assume shifting a retail box compensates for 5 years of development, testing and marketing are in cloud cookoo) and if you examine the examples we have its clear f2p boils down to grindy simplistic time sink mmos littered between a small spattering of mmo's that are simply past their sell by date.
The mmo field is close to stagnation, the same crowd are spreading between more and more games because real innovation and commitment are undermined by our desire to get something for nothing....creativity and imagination are being shafted because so many are just happy to feed an addcition, they wander between any and all mmos regardless of features or theme and don't stay anywhere for long enough for it to stabalise. Rather than being some great new future for mmos I see the f2p model as more an example of its decay, a way to exploit those death throes - the game nolonger has to engage the player because the cash shop instead favours exploiting greed and envy at a very superficial level - the whole motivation and ambition of the mmo changes and if it succeeds the larger message is a cut and run mentality that can only be detrimental to future development.
Very good points... and I agree with you up 'til the "mmos are in decay" part.
I think MMOs whose developers keep following each other like lemmings off a seaside cliff may certainly face that fate.
I think independent developers who rememberwhy they're making these games and who they're making them for, and what kind of experience they want them to be, will continue to carry that torch.
The genre's had its run at "big-time, mainstream success" and it's only hurt it every step of the way. I think it's time for it to go back to being the niche it started as, up to the 1st and 2nd generation MMOs, before WoW came along and changed everything the way it did.
FPS fans have their games. RPG fans have their games. Hack-n-Slash fans have their games. Shooter fans have their games. Brawler fans have their games, and so forth... I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with those of us who loved and miss the old-school approach to MMO design have a right to ours as well.
Will they be blockbuster, 50+ million dollar ordeals backed by big name companies? Probably not. But I think that's for the best... those people may bring the cash... but they also tend to screw them up.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I can't believe the number of people here living in denial that DDO, LOTRO, EQ2, and CO are all F2P games.
It's a FACT that these games ARE F2P. I don't need to have "experience" playing other F2P games to say what I said and be correct in saying it. However, I've played tons of F2P games that were not these four, so it is irrelevant. These other games do not change my mind.
[mod edit]
You say LoTRO is truly F2P, eh?
So why is it, then, that when I log into the game (I currently have it installed), there's several zones worth of content I can't access- even though I purchased them once already when I bought the original game, plus the expansions? Why does the game tell me I need to purchase that content, and refers me to the Turbinen Store to purchase them?
Seems to me that when you need to buy something... it isn't free.
I know what you're going to say "You can earn the Turbine Points in-game and get them that way! A ha! Gotcha!"
So I have to spend who-knows-how-much-time grinding away in-game.. instead of actually doing what I'd prefer to be - just so I can "earn" the points to unlock the content.
Seems like there's still a transaction taking place there. Instead of money, I'm exchanging my time.
Either way, there's an exchange happening.
It's not free.
Nice try, though.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Okay people keep calling Guild Wars mmo it's not, the only real online part to this game is when you visit hubs everything else is done on your PC and not on their server. Vindictus does the exact same thing, if you play with others one of you will host the game not their server. So knowing that i's kinda easy to see why they charge you only for the box price, they have NO OPERATING COST or practically none.
As for all thos P2p game that went Free. They are not F2P even though they use that term they are freemium game, want it or not if you want to keep playing at one point you'll end up playing. you eiher have to spend 1000hrs earning the point to unlock a newbie zone to move on or pay for it. For most F2P players they don't play enough that spending the price they spend to unlock content warrants it. I'm willing to bet that most people don't spend more then 1 or 2 months playing these games a year then move on to the next game.
I can't believe the number of people here living in denial that DDO, LOTRO, EQ2, and CO are all F2P games.
It's a FACT that these games ARE F2P. I don't need to have "experience" playing other F2P games to say what I said and be correct in saying it. However, I've played tons of F2P games that were not these four, so it is irrelevant. These other games do not change my mind.
People here are failing to realize that F2P is becoming quite popular, and that just because a AAA title goes F2P doesn't mean it isn't ... F2P... because it is.
I posted it before. There are probably 1000 f2p mmorpg out there. most of them sell "power" not "content".
If every f2p MMORPG are like CO, DDO, EQ2, LOTRO, I'll be happy. Unfortunately most of them arn't.
The games you pick are specifically games that were subscription based game, and later changed to f2p
The fact is most f2p games are not like CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO. They sell things that makes you 10 times more powerful, or things that could take hundreds or even thousands of hours of grinding.
If you want to argue the migration for CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO are great. I completely agree. If all f2p games are like that I'll be happy. Or if there will be more p2p games turning f2p it'll be great too.
And if you play so many f2p games, do tell what it is. And not specifically pick "honest" f2p games, the ones that sell contents. In the sense the developer don't try to "milk" you as much.
Alright, I will rely on scientific evidence to back up my claim that LOTRO and the other games ARE in fact, F2P games. Then you can provide your own evidence to prove otherwise.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
If every f2p MMORPG are like CO, DDO, EQ2, LOTRO, I'll be happy.
Awesome, then you completely agree with me
Excellent!
F2P = awesome! Hurray!
Glad to see that I finally reached someone who agrees with the obvious. F2P = F2P. Thanks!
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
2) It is not me who fail to grasp simple sentences.
F2P = F2P.
3 = 3
456 = 456
I fail to understand how someone can disagree with that.
Uhm, no but your use of really large fonts make you sound somewhat.. loud.
Anyways, EQ2 and LOTRO are not free, the are so called "Freemium". That means they turn you upside down and shake you to empty your pockets.
Charging people to acessing quests in the open world, to use certain items and similar things is not free at all. You might have to pay somewhat less playing them in the long run, that is true but it still will be more expensive than if you play a B2P game like Guildwars.
F2P = buy2win
B2P = most bang for the buck in the long run. Access to 100% of the game for the price of the box.
Well you cant exactly combine it being F2P + " even though I purchased them once already when I bought the original game, plus the expansions". You bought the game & expansions when it was P2P. If you hadnt bought it while it was P2P, then yes it would be free.
And yes it is F2P. It is Free 2 PLAY, not Free 2 have absolutely everything just handed to you instantly. Yes youre exchanging time to earn thos epoints, but that time does not = $.
Excuse me? According to whom, you? And you are... whom exactly... that you get to decide what my time is worth?
Perhaps your time isn't worth money to you... mine certainly is to me, especially when I'm spending it in direct exchange for something with a monetary value... such as locked content in a MMORPG.
Since the only way to by-pass spending that time is to spend real cash... yes, my time absolutely is worth money to me. Either way, I'm spending something of value to me - regardless of what it's worth to "you". I'm spending either money that would be spent to obtain the content, or I'm spending time that I would rather be using to actually enjoy the content I have to buy first.
Either way, something of value is being exchanged.
Hence, again, it's not free.
For some it might, but not for everyone, especially those investing tons of time in the games. For example, a kid with no job playing 60 hours a week... his time is hardly worth any $, so you cant say investing that time is anywhere close to the same as spending $. Someone else though might be giving up time they could have spent making $ to play the game instead. You cant really compare the 2.
No... *you* can't compare the two. I absolutely can because, again, I decide what my time and/or money is worth to me. You don't.
Try and remember that next time you go throwing around generalizations about people's time not being worth money.
Capisce? Thank you.
See this is another tell-tale sign of the problem with F2P setups. People have to dance around the definition, come up with clauses and exceptions and qualifiers for it... just to get to say "it's F2P!". If something is truly what it's described as, then it stands on its own merits. No explanations, qualifiers, exceptions or assumptions are required.
Take P2P subscriptions for example. You pay $15 a month (or whatever the amount is), you get unlimited access to everything the game offers, as often as you like, for as long per sitting as you like. Everything you may want to do, obtain or achieve inside the game is done, obtained or achieved inside the game, by playing it. Simple. Straight-forward and honest. No qualifiers, exceptions or assumptions required. It is what it is.
If you have to spend anything of value in exchange for something... it's not free. Not in the monetary sense, nor in the time sense.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
2) It is not me who fail to grasp simple sentences.
F2P = F2P.
3 = 3
456 = 456
I fail to understand how someone can disagree with that.
Uhm, no but your use of really large fonts make you sound somewhat.. loud.
Yes, of course! That is exactly why I used them. For some odd reason, no one was reading the normal sized font "F2P = F2P" so I did them a favor, making it very obvious and loud so that they could not ignore it as they have been.
Anyways, EQ2 and LOTRO are not free, the are so called "Freemium". That means they turn you upside down and shake you to empty your pockets.
Alright, then let me just use DDO, so no one can argue the obvious.
Charging people to acessing quests in the open world, to use certain items and similar things is not free at all. You might have to pay somewhat less playing them in the long run, that is true but it still will be more expensive than if you play a B2P game like Guildwars.
F2P = buy2win
So DDO = buy2win?
B2P = most bang for the buck in the long run. Access to 100% of the game for the price of the box.
Just not in the short run. However, B2P is a pretty good deal in the long run. I definitely agree with that.
Really, I only made this thread in response to the thread of the exact same name, but negative instead of positive.
F2P games deserve to have a positive light on them when another thread tried to put a solely negative light on them.
Just balancing the universe.
Also, EQ2 and LOTRO = F2P. I don't have to pay any money to log in and begin playing.
WAR is F2P for the entire first Tier, which is a very fun one.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
I'm waiting for the OP to recommened a F2P game that won't cost me much money to play it 2 or 3 days a week for a few hours, that has fun pvp.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
This last one wasn't worth of inclusion because it encompasses multiples of what was already stated. However, it's a big pill to swallow for P2P games.
10) Expansions.
How much do you think it cost someone to play World of Warcraft from release until now, per month? Although I don't know or care for official figures, my assumptions should be accurate enough.
WoW Releases on November 23, 2004, Box Set to Play- $50 + 1 free month.
Burning Crusaders releases on January 16, 2007- $40
Wrath of the Lich King releases on November 13, 2008- $40
Cataclysm releases on December 7, 2010- $40
Months Subscribed: 76
Subscription Paid from WoW Release to March of this year- $1125 (unless my math was wrong)
Actual Price of WoW per Month: $17 / month
Price to play all Expansions for 1 month if you JUST NOW started: $90/month
Play 1 year from today: $22/month
so lets say ur math is good, $1125 dollars spent on WoW from release date to march 2011, almost 7 years for only $1125... in a F2P you become addicted to microtransactions (specially when you have limitations to unlock, or exp pots or things that make the game unbalanced), Therefore you end up spending over $1000 dollars in less than 5 months....... so whos cheaper?
By the way, on black friday i got WoW vanilla + TBC + Wotlk for just 20 bucks retail, only had to buy cata when it came out, after the first free month, only payed 14.99 +tax = 16.00 bucks a month... not 17 nor 50 nor 22 or whatever like u said.....
If every f2p MMORPG are like CO, DDO, EQ2, LOTRO, I'll be happy.
Awesome, then you completely agree with me
Excellent!
F2P = awesome! Hurray!
Glad to see that I finally reached someone who agrees with the obvious. F2P = F2P. Thanks!
Ya, those games are great. Like you can play completely free in LOTRO, you just have to "work" a little bit more.
You can also spend a bit of money too. Which isn't much.
In DDO, I can spend far less than $15/month to play every which way AND get a lot of bonus items.
I never argued once about how SOME F2P models are a bit off, but most F2P models (even Pay2Win ones) are grossly exagerated as how much you can pay for how much you can win.
In another thread on this forum, someone was complaining about a F2P game with "pay2win" where 1 person received 15 special mounts (which would cost A LOT of money IRL).
Somehow... that person, who can only ride 1 of those 15 mounts at any one moment, in a game where a player having a mount has 0% effect on other players, is somehow "play2win" and horrible.
Then in another thread, someone roasted the F2P model, likening it to that of pure evil which destroys gaming.
Grossly, grossly exagerated. Even the "bad" F2P models aren't as bad as people make them out to be, and most are not that "bad", and some are even absolutely perfect (such as DDO or LOTRO).
I don't see why people have such hatred for F2P models that they deny good F2P models as NOT being F2P. That's just ludicrous. If it is Free to play, it is free to play. Doesn't matter if it is DDO or Korean Addict Abuser #2. Both are free to play, and IMO a step up from the P2P model, especially when tailored to DDO, LOTRO, or even the horrendously expensive EQ2 (which IMO is an awful F2P model, but still... F2P...)
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
This last one wasn't worth of inclusion because it encompasses multiples of what was already stated. However, it's a big pill to swallow for P2P games.
10) Expansions.
How much do you think it cost someone to play World of Warcraft from release until now, per month? Although I don't know or care for official figures, my assumptions should be accurate enough.
WoW Releases on November 23, 2004, Box Set to Play- $50 + 1 free month.
Burning Crusaders releases on January 16, 2007- $40
Wrath of the Lich King releases on November 13, 2008- $40
Cataclysm releases on December 7, 2010- $40
Months Subscribed: 76
Subscription Paid from WoW Release to March of this year- $1125 (unless my math was wrong)
Actual Price of WoW per Month: $17 / month
Price to play all Expansions for 1 month if you JUST NOW started: $90/month
Play 1 year from today: $22/month
so lets say ur math is good, $1125 dollars spent on WoW from release date to march 2011, almost 7 years for only $1125... in a F2P you become addicted to microtransactions (specially when you have limitations to unlock, or exp pots or things that make the game unbalanced), Therefore you end up spending over $1000 dollars in less than 5 months....... so whos cheaper?
By the way, on black friday i got WoW vanilla + TBC + Wotlk for just 20 bucks retail, only had to buy cata when it came out, after the first free month, only payed 14.99 +tax = 16.00 bucks a month... not 17 nor 50 nor 22 or whatever like u said.....
I get addicted to F2P microtransactions?
Pretty bad argument IMO, since an "addict" of WoW can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on game accounts, buying gold, power leveling multiple characters, etc.
What's your point? That addicts spend a lot of money? They do so in WoW, and honestly... I bet there is more money from WoW microtransactions that go on than any single F2P game's microtransactions.
Do you know how expensive it is to be addicted to WoW, and how expensive buying gold can be in the higher levels???
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I'm waiting for the OP to recommened a F2P game that won't cost me much money to play it 2 or 3 days a week for a few hours, that has fun pvp.
IMO, DDO is the best F2P model, and quite fun, but... it, like many others, are PvE.
However, this was only recently that so many games went F2P.
Did you know that F2P is actually relatively new? Many of these games just recently popped up. Hell, even MMO's themselves are a new type of genre.
F2P is increasing in popularity, so give it some time. Especially for more models like the DDO or LOTRO models to be released.
You cannot ask me "Where is my PvP game that is F2P that won't cost me much?" When the F2P model is relatively new. Games take time to be released, and PvE games are quite popular.
However, WAR is a fun AAA title which is entirely focused on PvP, and it is F2P for the first Tier, which is a game in its own right. It only takes a single day to reach max level in that game/tier, and if you log in during popular hours, you can get some games going.
There is also UO free shards, which are entirely focused on PvP, require about a day to reach max skills, and are VERY popular. DAoC also has free shards where you can /instant to level 50 and gear up, providing for quality, balanced matches among a large number of players.
Well, there's 3 F2P games (two of which rely on donations to survive, and one of which is eternally free).
I have heard that EQ2 actually has battlegrounds now, although I'm not sure if F2P includes those.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Really, I only made this thread in response to the thread of the exact same name, but negative instead of positive.
F2P games deserve to have a positive light on them when another thread tried to put a solely negative light on them.
Just balancing the universe.
Also, EQ2 and LOTRO = F2P. I don't have to pay any money to log in and begin playing.
WAR is F2P for the entire first Tier, which is a very fun one.
EQ2 and LOTRO are extended trials just like WAR. If you want to access a lot of the content you need to pay. Sure in LOTRO you can do some insane grind to get the money for that but to unlock the full game would take forever.
Games like that do have some positive effects as well, you don't have to hurry to get anywhere but if you want to play the entire game it will cost you money, maybe more money than it would if you just payed a monthly fee or in LOTROs case bought the lifetime sub.
As for if DDO is pay2win, that is at least partly true. You can pay money to recieve better loot ingame. That sounds like pay2win to me even if it doesn't have such a large impact on a PvE game as it have in PvP games.
But my point is that you get what you pay for. And I still think B2P is teh best deals. Buy the box and any expansions, than you can pay as long as the game is running.
F2P is really great for people who jump a game after a month or so. For people spending years in the same game and playing in the endgame will things cost you.
You are free to give me a average number to how much it costs to get to the endgame in LOTRO or EQ2 but it sure isn't nothing.
In GW I can play the endgame with just the first box (around 10 bucks now), try to beat that.
You forgot the part about none of them being worth paying for.
This could be said of any MMORPG.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by Emergence
Originally posted by raystantz
I'm waiting for the OP to recommened a F2P game that won't cost me much money to play it 2 or 3 days a week for a few hours, that has fun pvp.
IMO, DDO is the best F2P model, and quite fun, but... it, like many others, are PvE.
However, this was only recently that so many games went F2P.
Did you know that F2P is actually relatively new? Many of these games just recently popped up. Hell, even MMO's themselves are a new type of genre.
F2P is increasing in popularity, so give it some time. Especially for more models like the DDO or LOTRO models to be released.
You cannot ask me "Where is my PvP game that is F2P that won't cost me much?" When the F2P model is relatively new. Games take time to be released, and PvE games are quite popular.
However, WAR is a fun AAA title which is entirely focused on PvP, and it is F2P for the first Tier, which is a game in its own right. It only takes a single day to reach max level in that game/tier, and if you log in during popular hours, you can get some games going.
There is also UO free shards, which are entirely focused on PvP, require about a day to reach max skills, and are VERY popular. DAoC also has free shards where you can /instant to level 50 and gear up, providing for quality, balanced matches among a large number of players.
Well, there's 3 F2P games (two of which rely on donations to survive, and one of which is eternally free).
I have heard that EQ2 actually has battlegrounds now, although I'm not sure if F2P includes those.
MMO's are totally new.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Really, I only made this thread in response to the thread of the exact same name, but negative instead of positive.
F2P games deserve to have a positive light on them when another thread tried to put a solely negative light on them.
Just balancing the universe.
Also, EQ2 and LOTRO = F2P. I don't have to pay any money to log in and begin playing.
WAR is F2P for the entire first Tier, which is a very fun one.
In GW I can play the endgame with just the first box (around 10 bucks now), try to beat that.
You just made me reinstall it. There goes the next couple nights that would have been filled with sleep. Thanks ;D
Anyways, I'm with Loke on this. B2P is my preffered option. And I'm fine the the cash shop, as long as it's like Guild Wars where there's no game breaking items/quest packs/etc.
I can't believe the number of people here living in denial that DDO, LOTRO, EQ2, and CO are all F2P games.
It's a FACT that these games ARE F2P. I don't need to have "experience" playing other F2P games to say what I said and be correct in saying it. However, I've played tons of F2P games that were not these four, so it is irrelevant. These other games do not change my mind.
People here are failing to realize that F2P is becoming quite popular, and that just because a AAA title goes F2P doesn't mean it isn't ... F2P... because it is.
I posted it before. There are probably 1000 f2p mmorpg out there. most of them sell "power" not "content".
If every f2p MMORPG are like CO, DDO, EQ2, LOTRO, I'll be happy. Unfortunately most of them arn't.
The games you pick are specifically games that were subscription based game, and later changed to f2p
The fact is most f2p games are not like CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO. They sell things that makes you 10 times more powerful, or things that could take hundreds or even thousands of hours of grinding.
If you want to argue the migration for CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO are great. I completely agree. If all f2p games are like that I'll be happy. Or if there will be more p2p games turning f2p it'll be great too.
And if you play so many f2p games, do tell what it is. And not specifically pick "honest" f2p games, the ones that sell contents. In the sense the developer don't try to "milk" you as much.
CO/ DDO/ EQ2/ LOTROgames went from P2P to F2P cos players feels that these game does not deserve to be a P2P MMO. Not many players sub with these game anymore and that is why these Company went F2P so they can milk more money from players. F2P is just a marketing gimmick. Nothing is free in life.
I can't believe the number of people here living in denial that DDO, LOTRO, EQ2, and CO are all F2P games.
It's a FACT that these games ARE F2P. I don't need to have "experience" playing other F2P games to say what I said and be correct in saying it. However, I've played tons of F2P games that were not these four, so it is irrelevant. These other games do not change my mind.
People here are failing to realize that F2P is becoming quite popular, and that just because a AAA title goes F2P doesn't mean it isn't ... F2P... because it is.
I posted it before. There are probably 1000 f2p mmorpg out there. most of them sell "power" not "content".
If every f2p MMORPG are like CO, DDO, EQ2, LOTRO, I'll be happy. Unfortunately most of them arn't.
The games you pick are specifically games that were subscription based game, and later changed to f2p
The fact is most f2p games are not like CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO. They sell things that makes you 10 times more powerful, or things that could take hundreds or even thousands of hours of grinding.
If you want to argue the migration for CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO are great. I completely agree. If all f2p games are like that I'll be happy. Or if there will be more p2p games turning f2p it'll be great too.
And if you play so many f2p games, do tell what it is. And not specifically pick "honest" f2p games, the ones that sell contents. In the sense the developer don't try to "milk" you as much.
CO/ DDO/ EQ2/ LOTROgames went from P2P to F2P cos players feels that these game does not deserve to be a P2P MMO. Not many players sub with these game anymore and that is why these Company went F2P so they can milk more money from players. F2P is just a marketing gimmick. Nothing is free in life.
EQ2 and LOTRO don't have many subs? Are you JOKING?
Their subs are a very, very large amount.
Unless you're the type of person who thinks 250,000 or 10,000 isn't a lot. And how many people do you even know, or even live in your town or area? Most likely less than either of those numbers.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I can't believe the number of people here living in denial that DDO, LOTRO, EQ2, and CO are all F2P games.
It's a FACT that these games ARE F2P. I don't need to have "experience" playing other F2P games to say what I said and be correct in saying it. However, I've played tons of F2P games that were not these four, so it is irrelevant. These other games do not change my mind.
People here are failing to realize that F2P is becoming quite popular, and that just because a AAA title goes F2P doesn't mean it isn't ... F2P... because it is.
I posted it before. There are probably 1000 f2p mmorpg out there. most of them sell "power" not "content".
If every f2p MMORPG are like CO, DDO, EQ2, LOTRO, I'll be happy. Unfortunately most of them arn't.
The games you pick are specifically games that were subscription based game, and later changed to f2p
The fact is most f2p games are not like CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO. They sell things that makes you 10 times more powerful, or things that could take hundreds or even thousands of hours of grinding.
If you want to argue the migration for CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO are great. I completely agree. If all f2p games are like that I'll be happy. Or if there will be more p2p games turning f2p it'll be great too.
And if you play so many f2p games, do tell what it is. And not specifically pick "honest" f2p games, the ones that sell contents. In the sense the developer don't try to "milk" you as much.
CO/ DDO/ EQ2/ LOTROgames went from P2P to F2P cos players feels that these game does not deserve to be a P2P MMO. Not many players sub with these game anymore and that is why these Company went F2P so they can milk more money from players. F2P is just a marketing gimmick. Nothing is free in life.
EQ2 and LOTRO don't have many subs? Are you JOKING?
Their subs are a very, very large amount.
Unless you're the type of person who thinks 250,000 or 10,000 isn't a lot. And how many people do you even know, or even live in your town or area? Most likely less than either of those numbers.
it's not a matter of "subs" being a large amount. it's that those two games were a failure from a marketing perspective (not meet expectations, disappointed consumers) which is why they turned F2P and then managed to get some revenue back. LOTRO became one of the pioneers of turning P2P games into F2P and giving F2P games a better light.
Those two games were meant to be AA | AAA titles but failed in that respect. That's why they turned F2P.
P2P games have always been, on average, better quality than F2P games.
*urgh, wrong article wrong link. basically just google "lotro subscriptions fall" and you get a good idea of how LOTRO fared before turning F2P. /bad bad mistake sorry/
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You forgot the part about none of them being worth paying for.
This could be said of any MMORPG.
From what I can see of your posts here, Emergence, you're doing the same thing many others do when arguing for F2P... including Aihoshi in his articles.
You ignore the myriad arguments, examples and such that people bring up to show why F2P is not all you make it out to be; certainly not "wonderful". I have made these posts, listing a number of examples and reasons of why; and I know others have). In response, you just keep repeating the same mantra over and over, using large red letters, insisting that those who disagree are somehow "not getting it" or not reading your posts.
No, we got your message and we get what you're saying just fine. We're just saying "BS" to it. You are the one who, somehow, seems to not be "getting" what others are saying counter to your statements.
It's not just about "how much you can play the game without paying a dime". It's about *how* the game is designed to compel people to do the opposite. F2P MMOs are designed from the ground up to entice people to spend money - as much and as often as possible - in the cash shop. The fundamental gameplay is designed that way. They're not designed to immerse you in a vast virtual world. They're designed to get you to pull out your wallet as often as they possibly can, in any way they can.
I do not include LoTRO, DDO and EQ2 in that category because, as has been mentioned, they still offer subscriptions. Players have the option to pay the $15 or so a month and get access to everything. That's why they (at least DDO and LoTRO) are referred to as hybrid models, and not pure F2P. But even they pull their share of shenanigans with how the content is doled out. It pales in comparison, though, to what most all other F2P/Cash Shop MMOs do.
So, yes... I did read your post. And I have read where you've stated, over and over again, "F2P=F2P". My response is... it's a much bigger issue than that.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
Very good points... and I agree with you up 'til the "mmos are in decay" part.
I think MMOs whose developers keep following each other like lemmings off a seaside cliff may certainly face that fate.
I think independent developers who rememberwhy they're making these games and who they're making them for, and what kind of experience they want them to be, will continue to carry that torch.
The genre's had its run at "big-time, mainstream success" and it's only hurt it every step of the way. I think it's time for it to go back to being the niche it started as, up to the 1st and 2nd generation MMOs, before WoW came along and changed everything the way it did.
FPS fans have their games. RPG fans have their games. Hack-n-Slash fans have their games. Shooter fans have their games. Brawler fans have their games, and so forth... I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with those of us who loved and miss the old-school approach to MMO design have a right to ours as well.
Will they be blockbuster, 50+ million dollar ordeals backed by big name companies? Probably not. But I think that's for the best... those people may bring the cash... but they also tend to screw them up.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
[mod edit]
You say LoTRO is truly F2P, eh?
So why is it, then, that when I log into the game (I currently have it installed), there's several zones worth of content I can't access- even though I purchased them once already when I bought the original game, plus the expansions? Why does the game tell me I need to purchase that content, and refers me to the Turbinen Store to purchase them?
Seems to me that when you need to buy something... it isn't free.
I know what you're going to say "You can earn the Turbine Points in-game and get them that way! A ha! Gotcha!"
So I have to spend who-knows-how-much-time grinding away in-game.. instead of actually doing what I'd prefer to be - just so I can "earn" the points to unlock the content.
Seems like there's still a transaction taking place there. Instead of money, I'm exchanging my time.
Either way, there's an exchange happening.
It's not free.
Nice try, though.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Okay people keep calling Guild Wars mmo it's not, the only real online part to this game is when you visit hubs everything else is done on your PC and not on their server. Vindictus does the exact same thing, if you play with others one of you will host the game not their server. So knowing that i's kinda easy to see why they charge you only for the box price, they have NO OPERATING COST or practically none.
As for all thos P2p game that went Free. They are not F2P even though they use that term they are freemium game, want it or not if you want to keep playing at one point you'll end up playing. you eiher have to spend 1000hrs earning the point to unlock a newbie zone to move on or pay for it. For most F2P players they don't play enough that spending the price they spend to unlock content warrants it. I'm willing to bet that most people don't spend more then 1 or 2 months playing these games a year then move on to the next game.
I posted it before. There are probably 1000 f2p mmorpg out there. most of them sell "power" not "content".
If every f2p MMORPG are like CO, DDO, EQ2, LOTRO, I'll be happy. Unfortunately most of them arn't.
The games you pick are specifically games that were subscription based game, and later changed to f2p
The fact is most f2p games are not like CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO. They sell things that makes you 10 times more powerful, or things that could take hundreds or even thousands of hours of grinding.
If you want to argue the migration for CO/DDO/EQ2/LOTRO are great. I completely agree. If all f2p games are like that I'll be happy. Or if there will be more p2p games turning f2p it'll be great too.
And if you play so many f2p games, do tell what it is. And not specifically pick "honest" f2p games, the ones that sell contents. In the sense the developer don't try to "milk" you as much.
Alright, I will rely on scientific evidence to back up my claim that LOTRO and the other games ARE in fact, F2P games. Then you can provide your own evidence to prove otherwise.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Awesome, then you completely agree with me
Excellent!
F2P = awesome! Hurray!
Glad to see that I finally reached someone who agrees with the obvious. F2P = F2P. Thanks!
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Uhm, no but your use of really large fonts make you sound somewhat.. loud.
Anyways, EQ2 and LOTRO are not free, the are so called "Freemium". That means they turn you upside down and shake you to empty your pockets.
Charging people to acessing quests in the open world, to use certain items and similar things is not free at all. You might have to pay somewhat less playing them in the long run, that is true but it still will be more expensive than if you play a B2P game like Guildwars.
F2P = buy2win
B2P = most bang for the buck in the long run. Access to 100% of the game for the price of the box.
See this is another tell-tale sign of the problem with F2P setups. People have to dance around the definition, come up with clauses and exceptions and qualifiers for it... just to get to say "it's F2P!". If something is truly what it's described as, then it stands on its own merits. No explanations, qualifiers, exceptions or assumptions are required.
Take P2P subscriptions for example. You pay $15 a month (or whatever the amount is), you get unlimited access to everything the game offers, as often as you like, for as long per sitting as you like. Everything you may want to do, obtain or achieve inside the game is done, obtained or achieved inside the game, by playing it. Simple. Straight-forward and honest. No qualifiers, exceptions or assumptions required. It is what it is.
If you have to spend anything of value in exchange for something... it's not free. Not in the monetary sense, nor in the time sense.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ya, those games are great. Like you can play completely free in LOTRO, you just have to "work" a little bit more.
You can also spend a bit of money too. Which isn't much.
Really, I only made this thread in response to the thread of the exact same name, but negative instead of positive.
F2P games deserve to have a positive light on them when another thread tried to put a solely negative light on them.
Just balancing the universe.
Also, EQ2 and LOTRO = F2P. I don't have to pay any money to log in and begin playing.
WAR is F2P for the entire first Tier, which is a very fun one.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I'm waiting for the OP to recommened a F2P game that won't cost me much money to play it 2 or 3 days a week for a few hours, that has fun pvp.
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so lets say ur math is good, $1125 dollars spent on WoW from release date to march 2011, almost 7 years for only $1125... in a F2P you become addicted to microtransactions (specially when you have limitations to unlock, or exp pots or things that make the game unbalanced), Therefore you end up spending over $1000 dollars in less than 5 months....... so whos cheaper?
By the way, on black friday i got WoW vanilla + TBC + Wotlk for just 20 bucks retail, only had to buy cata when it came out, after the first free month, only payed 14.99 +tax = 16.00 bucks a month... not 17 nor 50 nor 22 or whatever like u said.....
In DDO, I can spend far less than $15/month to play every which way AND get a lot of bonus items.
I never argued once about how SOME F2P models are a bit off, but most F2P models (even Pay2Win ones) are grossly exagerated as how much you can pay for how much you can win.
In another thread on this forum, someone was complaining about a F2P game with "pay2win" where 1 person received 15 special mounts (which would cost A LOT of money IRL).
Somehow... that person, who can only ride 1 of those 15 mounts at any one moment, in a game where a player having a mount has 0% effect on other players, is somehow "play2win" and horrible.
Then in another thread, someone roasted the F2P model, likening it to that of pure evil which destroys gaming.
Grossly, grossly exagerated. Even the "bad" F2P models aren't as bad as people make them out to be, and most are not that "bad", and some are even absolutely perfect (such as DDO or LOTRO).
I don't see why people have such hatred for F2P models that they deny good F2P models as NOT being F2P. That's just ludicrous. If it is Free to play, it is free to play. Doesn't matter if it is DDO or Korean Addict Abuser #2. Both are free to play, and IMO a step up from the P2P model, especially when tailored to DDO, LOTRO, or even the horrendously expensive EQ2 (which IMO is an awful F2P model, but still... F2P...)
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I get addicted to F2P microtransactions?
Pretty bad argument IMO, since an "addict" of WoW can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on game accounts, buying gold, power leveling multiple characters, etc.
What's your point? That addicts spend a lot of money? They do so in WoW, and honestly... I bet there is more money from WoW microtransactions that go on than any single F2P game's microtransactions.
Do you know how expensive it is to be addicted to WoW, and how expensive buying gold can be in the higher levels???
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
IMO, DDO is the best F2P model, and quite fun, but... it, like many others, are PvE.
However, this was only recently that so many games went F2P.
Did you know that F2P is actually relatively new? Many of these games just recently popped up. Hell, even MMO's themselves are a new type of genre.
F2P is increasing in popularity, so give it some time. Especially for more models like the DDO or LOTRO models to be released.
You cannot ask me "Where is my PvP game that is F2P that won't cost me much?" When the F2P model is relatively new. Games take time to be released, and PvE games are quite popular.
However, WAR is a fun AAA title which is entirely focused on PvP, and it is F2P for the first Tier, which is a game in its own right. It only takes a single day to reach max level in that game/tier, and if you log in during popular hours, you can get some games going.
There is also UO free shards, which are entirely focused on PvP, require about a day to reach max skills, and are VERY popular. DAoC also has free shards where you can /instant to level 50 and gear up, providing for quality, balanced matches among a large number of players.
Well, there's 3 F2P games (two of which rely on donations to survive, and one of which is eternally free).
I have heard that EQ2 actually has battlegrounds now, although I'm not sure if F2P includes those.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
EQ2 and LOTRO are extended trials just like WAR. If you want to access a lot of the content you need to pay. Sure in LOTRO you can do some insane grind to get the money for that but to unlock the full game would take forever.
Games like that do have some positive effects as well, you don't have to hurry to get anywhere but if you want to play the entire game it will cost you money, maybe more money than it would if you just payed a monthly fee or in LOTROs case bought the lifetime sub.
As for if DDO is pay2win, that is at least partly true. You can pay money to recieve better loot ingame. That sounds like pay2win to me even if it doesn't have such a large impact on a PvE game as it have in PvP games.
But my point is that you get what you pay for. And I still think B2P is teh best deals. Buy the box and any expansions, than you can pay as long as the game is running.
F2P is really great for people who jump a game after a month or so. For people spending years in the same game and playing in the endgame will things cost you.
You are free to give me a average number to how much it costs to get to the endgame in LOTRO or EQ2 but it sure isn't nothing.
In GW I can play the endgame with just the first box (around 10 bucks now), try to beat that.
You forgot the part about none of them being worth paying for.
This could be said of any MMORPG.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
MMO's are totally new.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
You just made me reinstall it. There goes the next couple nights that would have been filled with sleep. Thanks ;D
Anyways, I'm with Loke on this. B2P is my preffered option. And I'm fine the the cash shop, as long as it's like Guild Wars where there's no game breaking items/quest packs/etc.
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I loved the article, and Emergence, I am looking forward for more of your informative posts.
Intensity beats extensity everytime...
CO/ DDO/ EQ2/ LOTRO games went from P2P to F2P cos players feels that these game does not deserve to be a P2P MMO. Not many players sub with these game anymore and that is why these Company went F2P so they can milk more money from players. F2P is just a marketing gimmick. Nothing is free in life.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
EQ2 and LOTRO don't have many subs? Are you JOKING?
Their subs are a very, very large amount.
Unless you're the type of person who thinks 250,000 or 10,000 isn't a lot. And how many people do you even know, or even live in your town or area? Most likely less than either of those numbers.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
oh, okay
google-fu to the rescue
everquest 2: http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/06/27/georgeson-eqii-wont-be-going-free-to-play/ and a month later convert to F2P [http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/07/27/eqii-jumps-on-the-f2p-bandwagon/] and BAZINGA money comes pouring back in as people come back and see how the game is
lotro: once they turned F2P after such devastating headlines: http://news.mmosite.com/content/2010-10-09/lotro_doubled_the_revenue_after_changed_to_f2p.shtml
doubled revenue. You read that right.
it's not a matter of "subs" being a large amount. it's that those two games were a failure from a marketing perspective (not meet expectations, disappointed consumers) which is why they turned F2P and then managed to get some revenue back. LOTRO became one of the pioneers of turning P2P games into F2P and giving F2P games a better light.
Those two games were meant to be AA | AAA titles but failed in that respect. That's why they turned F2P.
P2P games have always been, on average, better quality than F2P games.
*urgh, wrong article wrong link. basically just google "lotro subscriptions fall" and you get a good idea of how LOTRO fared before turning F2P. /bad bad mistake sorry/
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From what I can see of your posts here, Emergence, you're doing the same thing many others do when arguing for F2P... including Aihoshi in his articles.
You ignore the myriad arguments, examples and such that people bring up to show why F2P is not all you make it out to be; certainly not "wonderful". I have made these posts, listing a number of examples and reasons of why; and I know others have). In response, you just keep repeating the same mantra over and over, using large red letters, insisting that those who disagree are somehow "not getting it" or not reading your posts.
No, we got your message and we get what you're saying just fine. We're just saying "BS" to it. You are the one who, somehow, seems to not be "getting" what others are saying counter to your statements.
It's not just about "how much you can play the game without paying a dime". It's about *how* the game is designed to compel people to do the opposite. F2P MMOs are designed from the ground up to entice people to spend money - as much and as often as possible - in the cash shop. The fundamental gameplay is designed that way. They're not designed to immerse you in a vast virtual world. They're designed to get you to pull out your wallet as often as they possibly can, in any way they can.
I do not include LoTRO, DDO and EQ2 in that category because, as has been mentioned, they still offer subscriptions. Players have the option to pay the $15 or so a month and get access to everything. That's why they (at least DDO and LoTRO) are referred to as hybrid models, and not pure F2P. But even they pull their share of shenanigans with how the content is doled out. It pales in comparison, though, to what most all other F2P/Cash Shop MMOs do.
So, yes... I did read your post. And I have read where you've stated, over and over again, "F2P=F2P". My response is... it's a much bigger issue than that.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops