raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
I don't think I've ever read as much hogwash in one thread as I have from the OP of this one.
1. EQ2X, LOTRO, DDO, CO ARE free to play. BUT.... They were did not begin as such, and therefore cannot be categorized in the same list as say.. Runes of Magic, Alllods Online, Atlantica and these 3 games are the cream of the F2P crop. The rest of them are WAY below average games, that might interest a 12 year old kid whose never played an MMO before but for most of us, just having basic features isn't enough. EQ2X and so on, started out as pay to play. They CHANGED to a free to play model, because there were not sufficient amount of people actually paying for a subscription fee. If they had not done this, these games wouldn't even be open right now. They'd be down the same pipe as Shadowbane, Tabula Rasa and so on.
2. I think they did a good thing by doing that, and there are other games that would benefit immensely from it. Vanguard for example.. if they did this with Vanguard they'd literally renew that game to what it should have been. It needs players, and noone is ever going to play it unless it was free at this point.
3. Games that start out from the get go as Free to Play almost always BLOW compared to their P2P counterparts. Clunky controls, shoddy graphics, extremely basic storylines and features. They only give you the bare minimum of what you'd expect from a AAA mmo. There are a few exceptions to this rule.. but most are like this.. Fantasy Earth Zero, Cabal, Aika.. to name a few.
4. I'd love for everything you said about F2P games to be true, but here's some more things you didn't think about.
when I pay my 12.95 a month for FFXI which I think is the lowest monthly fee for a AAA mmo there is. You never have to pay more than that no matter what you do, or how much you play. If I want to play 12 hrs a day every day for a month, I will never pay more than 12.95 for that month.
If I decided I wanted to play heavily in some free to play game. I could spend 3X that amount just on the items I'd need to sustain myself during that time. That and the fact that its alot easier to keep spending money on things, when the list of things you need/want is almost infinite. With a monthly fee, I pay one price and get everything..
Look at it like this..
You go to a carnival.
Its "armband" night. You can get an armband that will let you ride any ride, as many times as you want for 15.00
OR..
You can pay 3 to 4.00 per ride.
Now, if you KNOW you only want to ride one or two rides. The 2nd choice might be better for you. But, for most people they will want to be able to choose to ride any ride they want, as many times as they want without limits. By the time I ride the scrambler 6 times... I've already spent the 15.00 and I'm just geting started!
Same thing applies here. that 12.95 I pay.. I've already gotten my moneys worth out of, before the month is even over. When I might wind up spending that in a day, in a free to play game if I'm not careful.
I can see how FTP games COULD be cheaper, if you are a kid or are extremely frugal with your time and money.. but for the majority of us.. we'd rather spend 15 bucks and get unlimited access, than spend 3 and 4 bucks here and there for extremely limited access. So what if I don't want to play a paladin, thats my choice.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
CO/ DDO/ EQ2/ LOTROgames went from P2P to F2P cos players feels that these game does not deserve to be a P2P MMO. Not many players sub with these game anymore and that is why these Company went F2P so they can milk more money from players. F2P is just a marketing gimmick. Nothing is free in life.
Then how do you explain my enjoyment of DDO/LOTRO/POTBS without paying a dime? I had a fun time. I didn't pay anything. If that is not FREE, i don't know what is.
And also, apperantly you forgot to throw Sony in there silly rabbit.
$14.99 a month for gold and you still have to buy races and stuff, bunch of bullshit.
Everquest and Everquest 2 Veteran.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xmenty
CO/ DDO/ EQ2/ LOTROgames went from P2P to F2P cos players feels that these game does not deserve to be a P2P MMO. Not many players sub with these game anymore and that is why these Company went F2P so they can milk more money from players. F2P is just a marketing gimmick. Nothing is free in life.
Then how do you explain my enjoyment of DDO/LOTRO/POTBS without paying a dime? I had a fun time. I didn't pay anything. If that is not FREE, i don't know what is.
Noone said you can't have "fun" for free. Fun translates different to different people.
For some people, its fun to go to the movies and stand outside of it and never actually pay to see a movie. For me that would be boring and a waste of time.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Well you cant exactly combine it being F2P + " even though I purchased them once already when I bought the original game, plus the expansions". You bought the game & expansions when it was P2P. If you hadnt bought it while it was P2P, then yes it would be free.
And yes it is F2P. It is Free 2 PLAY, not Free 2 have absolutely everything just handed to you instantly. Yes youre exchanging time to earn thos epoints, but that time does not = $.
Excuse me? According to whom, you? And you are... whom exactly... that you get to decide what my time is worth?
Perhaps your time isn't worth money to you... mine certainly is to me, especially when I'm spending it in direct exchange for something with a monetary value... such as locked content in a MMORPG.
Since the only way to by-pass spending that time is to spend real cash... yes, my time absolutely is worth money to me. Either way, I'm spending something of value to me - regardless of what it's worth to "you". I'm spending either money that would be spent to obtain the content, or I'm spending time that I would rather be using to actually enjoy the content I have to buy first.
Either way, something of value is being exchanged.
Hence, again, it's not free.
For some it might, but not for everyone, especially those investing tons of time in the games. For example, a kid with no job playing 60 hours a week... his time is hardly worth any $, so you cant say investing that time is anywhere close to the same as spending $. Someone else though might be giving up time they could have spent making $ to play the game instead. You cant really compare the 2.
No... *you* can't compare the two. I absolutely can because, again, I decide what my time and/or money is worth to me. You don't.
Try and remember that next time you go throwing around generalizations about people's time not being worth money.
Capisce? Thank you.
See this is another tell-tale sign of the problem with F2P setups. People have to dance around the definition, come up with clauses and exceptions and qualifiers for it... just to get to say "it's F2P!". If something is truly what it's described as, then it stands on its own merits. No explanations, qualifiers, exceptions or assumptions are required.
Take P2P subscriptions for example. You pay $15 a month (or whatever the amount is), you get unlimited access to everything the game offers, as often as you like, for as long per sitting as you like. Everything you may want to do, obtain or achieve inside the game is done, obtained or achieved inside the game, by playing it. Simple. Straight-forward and honest. No qualifiers, exceptions or assumptions required. It is what it is.
If you have to spend anything of value in exchange for something... it's not free. Not in the monetary sense, nor in the time sense.
Cool story... except for the part where you took everything i said completely the wrong way and applie dit to yourself as an individual based on your own personal circumstances. Does everyone make the same amount of money as you? Is their time worth the same $ as yours? Does everyone even have a value they can place on their time? Does everyone else feel exactly the same as you about how much your time is worth?
See, you took all the stuff i said, which yes youre right was generalizing, and then while bitching about my generalizing tried to argue with me using your personal information. YOUR time might be worth some $, but how about the jobless 19 year old kid mooching off his parents with no income of his own and not a single $ to his name? Would you say his time is just as valuable as yours?
Anyway, the entire point is, the games are free 2 play, not free 2 have instant gratification and every single thing in the game accomplished in 1 second and without spending 1 cent. Nobody has ever said that they dont require time investments, thats NOT what they are advertised as. They are advertised as free, as in $ value. You cant apply a $ value to time in an MMO, because it differs for every single person in the world. You are not the center of the MMO universe, and value is not based upon you. So you have a choice.... which do you have more of, free time or extra $? Either one of those will get you what you want from their shop. You are not required to have the $ if you have the time to spare instead.
Not only that, but regardless of how you try to argue it, no your time does not = $. When you are at work, that may be the case, but that does not apply 24/7. The minute you stop working or doing whatever it is you do to make money, your time no longer holds any $ value. So when youre playing the game, no your time does not = $.
Not only that, but regardless of how you try to argue it, no your time does not = $. When you are at work, that may be the case, but that does not apply 24/7. The minute you stop working or doing whatever it is you do to make money, your time no longer holds any $ value. So when youre playing the game, no your time does not = $.
self-employed
overtime payments
extra side projects that could mean $$$
You just broke half the logic in economics with that statement.
Forums: The best real-time interactive MMORPG you'll ever be in.
Not only that, but regardless of how you try to argue it, no your time does not = $. When you are at work, that may be the case, but that does not apply 24/7. The minute you stop working or doing whatever it is you do to make money, your time no longer holds any $ value. So when youre playing the game, no your time does not = $.
self-employed
overtime payments
extra side projects that could mean $$$
You just broke half the logic in economics with that statement.
How so?
When youre logged into an MMO, are you doing any of those things you mentioned? No. Your time spent playing an MMO does not = the same value as your time while working / being productive, unless youre somehow getting paid to play that game.
Yes you COULD be making money during that time instead of playing, but youre playing instead and therefore your time no longer hold sthat same value. You are making the choice to forfeit that time that could be spent making money.
Same goes for many other things. I dont know about you, but most of us dont get paid to sleep, eat, watch tv, go shopping, etc. All of those things require time. Your enot getting paid during that time, and so during that time your time = $0.
Besides, what are they supposed to do? Listen to Mike, and hire a bunch of staff who goes through in depth interviews with every single player and figure out exactly how much we all make per hour, how much time we spend playing, etc an dthen calculate it all and based on each of our lifestyles offer us different payment plans for every item in the game because "well your time is worth more $ than this other person, so if youre going to buy an XP potion that will save you an hour of grinding, you should be forced to pay as much as you make per hour IRL".
I am still waiting for someone to justify how a "free" to play MMO that you make real money purchases in is free? Seems to me that if you put down any money, you are a PAYING customer and I don't care how or what you spend it on. So to me, calling a game "free-to-play" is nothing more then a scam that weak minded or unthinking individuals are sucked into thinking they are getting something for nothing. Just my two cents (so this post is not "free").
I am still waiting for someone to justify how a "free" to play MMO that you make real money purchases in is free? Seems to me that if you put down any money, you are a PAYING customer and I don't care how or what you spend it on. So to me, calling a game "free-to-play" is nothing more then a scam that weak minded or unthinking individuals are sucked into thinking they are getting something for nothing. Just my two cents (so this post is not "free").
**sigh**
You are NOT REQUIRED to spend any of that money. It is OPTIONAL to spend it if you want more stuff, or faster leveling or whatever.
P2P = you HAVE to pay to play the game
F2P = you play for free, any $ transactions are your choice
Have you ever tried upgrading your gear to max upgrade level without spending TONS of real cash? Of course you DO NOT have to spend that money.. but then you can go fight a player with your +3 gear that has +10 everything... and have absolutely no way to win against him.. Yea sure.. you can play free for life.. which equates to being a "froob" and sucking hardcore.
Not only that, but regardless of how you try to argue it, no your time does not = $. When you are at work, that may be the case, but that does not apply 24/7. The minute you stop working or doing whatever it is you do to make money, your time no longer holds any $ value. So when youre playing the game, no your time does not = $.
self-employed
overtime payments
extra side projects that could mean $$$
You just broke half the logic in economics with that statement.
How so?
When youre logged into an MMO, are you doing any of those things you mentioned? No. Your time spent playing an MMO does not = the same value as your time while working / being productive, unless youre somehow getting paid to play that game.
Yes you COULD be making money during that time instead of playing, but youre playing instead and therefore your time no longer hold sthat same value. You are making the choice to forfeit that time that could be spent making money.
Same goes for many other things. I dont know about you, but most of us dont get paid to sleep, eat, watch tv, go shopping, etc. All of those things require time. Your enot getting paid during that time, and so during that time your time = $0.
Besides, what are they supposed to do? Listen to Mike, and hire a bunch of staff who goes through in depth interviews with every single player and figure out exactly how much we all make per hour, how much time we spend playing, etc an dthen calculate it all and based on each of our lifestyles offer us different payment plans for every item in the game because "well your time is worth more $ than this other person, so if youre going to buy an XP potion that will save you an hour of grinding, you should be forced to pay as much as you make per hour IRL".
time spent offhours is not equal to time spent working but it does not mean that that portion of time is valued at $0 just because you're not actively gaining money. it's worth less but not $0, which is why it's usually considered a negative accumulation of debts which is then equalled out via your other activities, like gaming (enjoyment -> quality of life rising), shopping (injecting money back into the economy), etc.
let's put it this way: (your money earned per hour while working * -1) + (you spending money or earning something that can/cannot be valued according to standard rates) = value of your time not gaining money.
In practice: if you feel that enjoyment is worth infinite more than money can ever provide, then your time is valued positive and you are not wasting time, nor is your time valued at $0. In economics, it means you raised your quality of life via enjoyment.
If you feel that the blog post you're writing in your spare time isn't that productive and the emotional side-effects/writing practice/whatever isn't worth as much as the money you could make, you're making some waste of your time, which could be anywhere from -$5 to whatever you feel.
It's either that or I'm making zero sense. Sorry 'bout that.
Forums: The best real-time interactive MMORPG you'll ever be in.
Have you ever tried upgrading your gear to max upgrade level without spending TONS of real cash? Of course you DO NOT have to spend that money.. but then you can go fight a player with your +3 gear that has +10 everything... and have absolutely no way to win against him.. Yea sure.. you can play free for life.. which equates to being a "froob" and sucking hardcore.
Sorry.... you seem to have confused Free 2 Play with Free 2 be the best.
Playing is playing, regardless of wether youre getting your ass kicked by people or not. It doesnt change the fact that is free to play. There are millions of people out there paying monthly subs and getting their asses kicked just as hard.
Btw, yes I actually have done what you said in several games, and gotten lucky enough to be equal to what people were spending money for. RF online is one example. I occassionaly spent money on some things like XP pots (because the grind was a pain in the ass), but when it came to gear i manually upgraded my things using ingame upgraders and kicked the shit out of most people.
I did the same in Rohan shortly after it launched and actually had what for many months was the strongest weapon (by a lot) on the server for 2 of my characters. I actually seemed to get very very lucky with upgrades and quickly became "the crafter" for my guild. Everyone would give me their weapons & upgrade mats and have me do the upgrading since i had like a 75% success rate when most of them had like 25%. Made quite a few very nice weapons in that game.
Have you ever tried upgrading your gear to max upgrade level without spending TONS of real cash? Of course you DO NOT have to spend that money.. but then you can go fight a player with your +3 gear that has +10 everything... and have absolutely no way to win against him.. Yea sure.. you can play free for life.. which equates to being a "froob" and sucking hardcore.
Sorry.... you seem to have confused Free 2 Play with Free 2 be the best.
Playing is playing, regardless of wether youre getting your ass kicked by people or not. It doesnt change the fact that is free to play. There are millions of people out there paying monthly subs and getting their asses kicked just as hard.
Btw, yes I actually have done what you said in several games, and gotten lucky enough to be equal to what people were spending money for. RF online is one example. I occassionaly spent money on some things like XP pots (because the grind was a pain in the ass), but when it came to gear i manually upgraded my things using ingame upgraders and kicked the shit out of most people.
I did the same in Rohan shortly after it launched and actually had what for many months was the strongest weapon (by a lot) on the server for 2 of my characters. I actually seemed to get very very lucky with upgrades and quickly became "the crafter" for my guild. Everyone would give me their weapons & upgrade mats and have me do the upgrading since i had like a 75% success rate when most of them had like 25%. Made quite a few very nice weapons in that game.
Oh.. well sorry I made such a huge error.. Ive played maybe 3 F2(insert word that makes your poor ass sound smart) They are garbage. Thats why I subscribe to 4 different games. Never get bored and never have a desire/need to spend more..
Btw Im pretty sure you are the exception.. not the rule :P
Not only that, but regardless of how you try to argue it, no your time does not = $. When you are at work, that may be the case, but that does not apply 24/7. The minute you stop working or doing whatever it is you do to make money, your time no longer holds any $ value. So when youre playing the game, no your time does not = $.
self-employed
overtime payments
extra side projects that could mean $$$
You just broke half the logic in economics with that statement.
How so?
When youre logged into an MMO, are you doing any of those things you mentioned? No. Your time spent playing an MMO does not = the same value as your time while working / being productive, unless youre somehow getting paid to play that game.
Yes you COULD be making money during that time instead of playing, but youre playing instead and therefore your time no longer hold sthat same value. You are making the choice to forfeit that time that could be spent making money.
Same goes for many other things. I dont know about you, but most of us dont get paid to sleep, eat, watch tv, go shopping, etc. All of those things require time. Your enot getting paid during that time, and so during that time your time = $0.
Besides, what are they supposed to do? Listen to Mike, and hire a bunch of staff who goes through in depth interviews with every single player and figure out exactly how much we all make per hour, how much time we spend playing, etc an dthen calculate it all and based on each of our lifestyles offer us different payment plans for every item in the game because "well your time is worth more $ than this other person, so if youre going to buy an XP potion that will save you an hour of grinding, you should be forced to pay as much as you make per hour IRL".
time spent offhours is not equal to time spent working but it does not mean that that portion of time is valued at $0 just because you're not actively gaining money. it's worth less but not $0, which is why it's usually considered a negative accumulation of debts which is then equalled out via your other activities, like gaming (enjoyment -> quality of life rising), shopping (injecting money back into the economy), etc.
let's put it this way: (your money earned per hour while working * -1) + (you spending money or earning something that can/cannot be valued according to standard rates) = value of your time not gaining money.
In practice: if you feel that enjoyment is worth infinite more than money can ever provide, then your time is valued positive and you are not wasting time, nor is your time valued at $0. In economics, it means you raised your quality of life via enjoyment.
If you feel that the blog post you're writing in your spare time isn't that productive and the emotional side-effects/writing practice/whatever isn't worth as much as the money you could make, you're making some waste of your time, which could be anywhere from -$5 to whatever you feel.
It's either that or I'm making zero sense. Sorry 'bout that.
Nah, youre making sense, and i somewhat agree with you. But thing is, these companies are not responsible for your value of life. Theyre responsible for providing a game to play, and thats it. The only thing they have control over when it comes to your "time value" is how much youre paying in cold hard $. Everything outside of that is based on your own individual opinions, preferences, etc. They cannot put a $ on your time. They simply put a $ on your access to a game, or an item. What you do with that game / item, and how much time you spending using it is completely up to you.
WSIMike was trying to argue that you can put a $ on your time, but thats only true while actively making money. As far as value of life, which is more what youre talking about, it is only partially made up of money as well as many many other factors. Yes you can put a value of life on your time spent doing things, but you cant put a $ on every single thing you do unless that thing is either making you money, or costing you money in direct proportion to the time spent.
Just as an example, if MMOs charged us hourly rates, then yeah you could say every hour spent in the game is worth a certain amount of $. But rather than that, we are charged monthly, and the time we spend playing within that month can range from 0 to a couple hundred, varying with each person.
Anyway, my main point i was making in my reply to Mike was that yes, if an individual wants to, they can certainly sit there and say every hour of my life = X number of $. Doe sthat make it true? No. Does an MMO company care, and does your own self worth matter to them or determine how much you pay? Nope. So basically, his entire pissy argument about how im soooo wrong about how much HIS time is worth, is entirely pointless. Someone opinion of their own self worth and how much their time is worth does not translate into $ in eithe rthe real world or the virtual world.
I might feel my time is worth $500 an hour. Does that mean im going to get it because I say so?
Have you ever tried upgrading your gear to max upgrade level without spending TONS of real cash? Of course you DO NOT have to spend that money.. but then you can go fight a player with your +3 gear that has +10 everything... and have absolutely no way to win against him.. Yea sure.. you can play free for life.. which equates to being a "froob" and sucking hardcore.
Sorry.... you seem to have confused Free 2 Play with Free 2 be the best.
Playing is playing, regardless of wether youre getting your ass kicked by people or not. It doesnt change the fact that is free to play. There are millions of people out there paying monthly subs and getting their asses kicked just as hard.
Btw, yes I actually have done what you said in several games, and gotten lucky enough to be equal to what people were spending money for. RF online is one example. I occassionaly spent money on some things like XP pots (because the grind was a pain in the ass), but when it came to gear i manually upgraded my things using ingame upgraders and kicked the shit out of most people.
I did the same in Rohan shortly after it launched and actually had what for many months was the strongest weapon (by a lot) on the server for 2 of my characters. I actually seemed to get very very lucky with upgrades and quickly became "the crafter" for my guild. Everyone would give me their weapons & upgrade mats and have me do the upgrading since i had like a 75% success rate when most of them had like 25%. Made quite a few very nice weapons in that game.
Oh.. well sorry I made such a huge error.. Ive played maybe 3 F2(insert word that makes your poor ass sound smart) They are garbage. Thats why I subscribe to 4 different games. Never get bored and never have a desire/need to spend more..
Btw Im pretty sure you are the exception.. not the rule :P
Well, those particular game smay have been garbage, but by your logic, since a few F2P games were badm that mean stheyre all bad. And so since a few P2P games are good, that must automatically make them all good too.
I think we can all agree, thats very far from the truth. There are tons of P2P games that are absolute garbage too.
You, like many others, are biased about an entire genre because of a couple of bad experiences. On the other hand, ive played several dozen of both F2P and P2P games, and ive seen the good and the bad on both sides. Im not saying all F2P games are good, i know damn well theyre not, but there are some very good ones out there that are much better than many "AAA" P2P games in several ways. Judging all F2P games, based on a few is well... its basically the same as prejudice/racism due to a few bad experiences with members of another race. People assume that all people of a certain race are a certain way because of a few of them being that way. That certainly doesnt mean theyre right, no wdoes it?
Ive played F2P games that I wasnt able to stand playing mor ethan a couple hours, and ive also played some that have kept me addicted to them playing several hours a day, every day for months. Same goes for P2P games.
Its just annoying watching people shun a very large group of games, based usually on a very tiny sampling of whats out there or on what F2P games used to be like. The F2P games being released in the past 2-3 years tend to be much higher quality than what we were seeing 5 or so years ago. Meanwhile, P2P games seem to have gotten worse and worse, or at best stayed the same in quality vs $.
time spent offhours is not equal to time spent working but it does not mean that that portion of time is valued at $0 just because you're not actively gaining money. it's worth less but not $0, which is why it's usually considered a negative accumulation of debts which is then equalled out via your other activities, like gaming (enjoyment -> quality of life rising), shopping (injecting money back into the economy), etc.
let's put it this way: (your money earned per hour while working * -1) + (you spending money or earning something that can/cannot be valued according to standard rates) = value of your time not gaining money.
In practice: if you feel that enjoyment is worth infinite more than money can ever provide, then your time is valued positive and you are not wasting time, nor is your time valued at $0. In economics, it means you raised your quality of life via enjoyment.
If you feel that the blog post you're writing in your spare time isn't that productive and the emotional side-effects/writing practice/whatever isn't worth as much as the money you could make, you're making some waste of your time, which could be anywhere from -$5 to whatever you feel.
It's either that or I'm making zero sense. Sorry 'bout that.
Nah, youre making sense, and i somewhat agree with you. But thing is, these companies are not responsible for your value of life. Theyre responsible for providing a game to play, and thats it. The only thing they have control over when it comes to your "time value" is how much youre paying in cold hard $. Everything outside of that is based on your own individual opinions, preferences, etc. They cannot put a $ on your time. They simply put a $ on your access to a game, or an item. What you do with that game / item, and how much time you spending using it is completely up to you.
WSIMike was trying to argue that you can put a $ on your time, but thats only true while actively making money. As far as value of life, which is more what youre talking about, it is only partially made up of money as well as many many other factors. Yes you can put a value of life on your time spent doing things, but you cant put a $ on every single thing you do unless that thing is either making you money, or costing you money in direct proportion to the time spent.
Just as an example, if MMOs charged us hourly rates, then yeah you could say every hour spent in the game is worth a certain amount of $. But rather than that, we are charged monthly, and the time we spend playing within that month can range from 0 to a couple hundred, varying with each person.
Anyway, my main point i was making in my reply to Mike was that yes, if an individual wants to, they can certainly sit there and say every hour of my life = X number of $. Doe sthat make it true? No. Does an MMO company care, and does your own self worth matter to them or determine how much you pay? Nope. So basically, his entire pissy argument about how im soooo wrong about how much HIS time is worth, is entirely pointless. Someone opinion of their own self worth and how much their time is worth does not translate into $ in eithe rthe real world or the virtual world.
I might feel my time is worth $500 an hour. Does that mean im going to get it because I say so?
you're saying "yes i agree" then saying "no I don't agree" to a statement that is exactly what I said...
what the holy fuck ARE you talking about.
everything sounds and reads like a mindfuck to me since you're turning everything hypothetical about the "value of time" theory into a real-hard-cash situation which just won't work, because the theory stands only if you understand that it is not guaranteed to transform into cash. It's just a way of calculating whether something is worth your time or not.
I give up.
also, because I'm still a noob at everything, I wiki'd "value of life". definition: the value you put on one's entire life. A bit like how Steve Jobs is valued at a certain number, or etc
value of time, on the other hand...
/giving up again.
Forums: The best real-time interactive MMORPG you'll ever be in.
time spent offhours is not equal to time spent working but it does not mean that that portion of time is valued at $0 just because you're not actively gaining money. it's worth less but not $0, which is why it's usually considered a negative accumulation of debts which is then equalled out via your other activities, like gaming (enjoyment -> quality of life rising), shopping (injecting money back into the economy), etc.
let's put it this way: (your money earned per hour while working * -1) + (you spending money or earning something that can/cannot be valued according to standard rates) = value of your time not gaining money.
In practice: if you feel that enjoyment is worth infinite more than money can ever provide, then your time is valued positive and you are not wasting time, nor is your time valued at $0. In economics, it means you raised your quality of life via enjoyment.
If you feel that the blog post you're writing in your spare time isn't that productive and the emotional side-effects/writing practice/whatever isn't worth as much as the money you could make, you're making some waste of your time, which could be anywhere from -$5 to whatever you feel.
It's either that or I'm making zero sense. Sorry 'bout that.
Nah, youre making sense, and i somewhat agree with you. But thing is, these companies are not responsible for your value of life. Theyre responsible for providing a game to play, and thats it. The only thing they have control over when it comes to your "time value" is how much youre paying in cold hard $. Everything outside of that is based on your own individual opinions, preferences, etc. They cannot put a $ on your time. They simply put a $ on your access to a game, or an item. What you do with that game / item, and how much time you spending using it is completely up to you.
WSIMike was trying to argue that you can put a $ on your time, but thats only true while actively making money. As far as value of life, which is more what youre talking about, it is only partially made up of money as well as many many other factors. Yes you can put a value of life on your time spent doing things, but you cant put a $ on every single thing you do unless that thing is either making you money, or costing you money in direct proportion to the time spent.
Just as an example, if MMOs charged us hourly rates, then yeah you could say every hour spent in the game is worth a certain amount of $. But rather than that, we are charged monthly, and the time we spend playing within that month can range from 0 to a couple hundred, varying with each person.
Anyway, my main point i was making in my reply to Mike was that yes, if an individual wants to, they can certainly sit there and say every hour of my life = X number of $. Doe sthat make it true? No. Does an MMO company care, and does your own self worth matter to them or determine how much you pay? Nope. So basically, his entire pissy argument about how im soooo wrong about how much HIS time is worth, is entirely pointless. Someone opinion of their own self worth and how much their time is worth does not translate into $ in eithe rthe real world or the virtual world.
I might feel my time is worth $500 an hour. Does that mean im going to get it because I say so?
you're saying "yes i agree" then saying "no I don't agree" to a statement that is exactly what I said...
what the holy fuck ARE you talking about.
everything sounds and reads like a mindfuck to me since you're turning everything hypothetical about the "value of time" theory into a real-hard-cash situation which just won't work, because the theory stands only if you understand that it is not guaranteed to transform into cash. It's just a way of calculating whether something is worth your time or not.
I give up.
Sorry, i know i tend to rant about shit in a weird way sometimes. You also may not understand where some of it is coming from if you hadnt read WSIMike's reply to one of my earlier posts where he for some reason seems to have taken offense at the fact that i said how "your" time (speaking of people in general) does not = $. I was generalizing, he made it personal, saying basically how dare i tell him his time isnt valuable, because his time = $.... even though he isnt making money while playing the game.
Ill simplify it:
Time working (or whatever you do to make a living) = $
Time doing other things, such as playing an MMO does not = $. Yes it has other value, such as entertainment, but it does not directly translate into $
Value =/= $
$ is only a part of the equation, and it is not the only form that value takes.
Edit: Well that isnt exactly value of life, thats his net worth. But yes net worth can be a part of the equation in value of life, since it allows you to buy things that are a part of the equation.
You hit the nail on the head though, yes its value of time. I wasnt correct with Value of life. As far as value of time, as i said in this post, $ is not the only form of value.
Anyway, doesnt matter, my original posts werent meant to go into this long discussion. It was a reply really to Mike pretty much insisting that time = $, for everyone in all situations. I was pointing out that that is not true, and is different from person to person. HE argued that F2P isnt really F2P, even if you spend no $, because time = money, so by spending time in a game to earn things for free, youre still paying for it even if you spend $0.
While I will agree that F2P games can be far more expensive than p2p games depending on the player I will say this:
f2p games have flexibility.
Some people that play casually, or play heavily for two weeks and then start playing a console game for the next two (like me), really benefit from the f2p model. When I sub to a game, I always feel obligated to play to justify my subscription. I wasted a month of WoW (because I bought a 2 month gamecard, and didn't play much in the last month) and a month on Vanguard because I subbed for another month but then became unexpectedly busy. On the other hand, I have spent only $20 on DDO and have been playing on and off for months and almost have enough DDO points saved up from favor to buy more content. Although I understand that DDO has a comparatively awesome freemium system compared to other models (particularly the asian grinders).
I would also like to address the claim that f2p games are crap. Some said that DDO for instance must be crap, and that is why it is now free. That is not necessarily true - DDO's gameplay doesn't lend itself well to the subscription model because youre meant to replay dungeons over and over... It is not a large, persistent world in the vein of WoW or EverQuest. The f2p model worked well for DDO because it makes sense to buy a game that is structured in this way, a la carte.
I do not believe all f2p games are crap because they have introduced some unique games to the genre:
Sword 2
Atlantica Online
Faxion
Savage 2
League of Legends
Megaten
MapleStory
Vindictus
Mabinogi
Conquer Online (for an eastern themed MMO and it was one of the first free MMOs, although I realize there are plenty of eastern themed f2p MMOs now. As far as I am aware, there aren't any p2p ones, correct me if I am wrong).
Many of these games provide for a niche market. Many asian f2p games attract otakus and anime fans with their anime style graphics and art direction.
Some f2p games have a considerable budget behind them such as Allods (12 mil) and Loong (10 mil) and are fairly impressive to play and look at.
These observations in no way mean there aren't games that have game breaking pay to win systems and little to no customer service. It may even be dangerous to use your credit card with these games because there is a possibility that hackers may obtain your information. However, it is unfair to say all f2p games are like this, because they are not and there are some unique and quality offerings out there.
On the other hand, f2p and freemium games aren't true discount games. There benefit is flexibility - access the games server whether you have paid a dime or not and buy what you want, and ignore what you won't necessarily miss, but there are games that are actually just cheaper all around. These games are:
Dofus (part of the game is free, sub is $6.90 a month, only $64.99 for a year)
Runescape (partly free, $5.95 a month)
Ryzom (free until level 125, then $10.95 a month which is stil cheaper than the market price of $15.00)
These games arguably have unique qualities that make them worth playing beyond their cheap price as well.
DDO also qualifies because right now it has free content, only $9.99 a month, which includes 500 free turbine points a month and apprently lets you roll a character start out on level 4. That is a pretty sweet deal. I still choose to pay as I go though, for the aformentioned flexibility.
Favorites: Vanguard SOH, Final Fantasy XI, Dungeons and Dragons Online
Future: Final Fantasy XIV 2.0 EverQuest NEXT Wizardry Online Vanguard F2P edition (fingers crossed)
$ is only a part of the equation, and it is not the only form that value takes.
It was a reply really to Mike pretty much insisting that time = $, for everyone in all situations. I was pointing out that that is not true, and is different from person to person.
That's all you needed to say, really, to debunk my reply.
As for F2P not being F2P, the only way one can go about that is if you can't progress through the game without spending cash or using cash items (which a lot of F2P games I've encountered have done so).
Forums: The best real-time interactive MMORPG you'll ever be in.
Some F2P games are actually F2P. I never felt gimped out while playing Cabal Online for free, or 2 Moons / Dekaron. I never payed a dime in Cabal Online for anything other than Premium to get more exp / skill gain and teleporting abilities. That was it. I got to level 120 as a warrior too and pvped alot. Never had any issues with people paying to get overpowered or anything.
$ is only a part of the equation, and it is not the only form that value takes.
It was a reply really to Mike pretty much insisting that time = $, for everyone in all situations. I was pointing out that that is not true, and is different from person to person.
That's all you needed to say, really, to debunk my reply.
As for F2P not being F2P, the only way one can go about that is if you can't progress through the game without spending cash or using cash items (which a lot of F2P games I've encountered have done so).
Yeah, at the time we were talking specifically about LOTRO, which allows you to either pay $ for content & items, or earn points in the game which can be spent the same way.
He insisted its not really F2P, even though he can earn everything the game offers without spending a cent, because he had to spend time earning them. Basically, unless you get to play for free as well as have every single thing they offer handed to you for free with no time or $ investment whatsoever, its not free... even though he didnt spend $.
Have you ever tried upgrading your gear to max upgrade level without spending TONS of real cash? Of course you DO NOT have to spend that money.. but then you can go fight a player with your +3 gear that has +10 everything... and have absolutely no way to win against him.. Yea sure.. you can play free for life.. which equates to being a "froob" and sucking hardcore.
You assume wrongly that others need to go fight this player at the end game.
The beauty of F2P games is that you can just play a few hours, have fun, and move onto the next one. No commitment, no need to get serious. They are games, not marriages.
Comments
I don't think I've ever read as much hogwash in one thread as I have from the OP of this one.
1. EQ2X, LOTRO, DDO, CO ARE free to play. BUT.... They were did not begin as such, and therefore cannot be categorized in the same list as say.. Runes of Magic, Alllods Online, Atlantica and these 3 games are the cream of the F2P crop. The rest of them are WAY below average games, that might interest a 12 year old kid whose never played an MMO before but for most of us, just having basic features isn't enough. EQ2X and so on, started out as pay to play. They CHANGED to a free to play model, because there were not sufficient amount of people actually paying for a subscription fee. If they had not done this, these games wouldn't even be open right now. They'd be down the same pipe as Shadowbane, Tabula Rasa and so on.
2. I think they did a good thing by doing that, and there are other games that would benefit immensely from it. Vanguard for example.. if they did this with Vanguard they'd literally renew that game to what it should have been. It needs players, and noone is ever going to play it unless it was free at this point.
3. Games that start out from the get go as Free to Play almost always BLOW compared to their P2P counterparts. Clunky controls, shoddy graphics, extremely basic storylines and features. They only give you the bare minimum of what you'd expect from a AAA mmo. There are a few exceptions to this rule.. but most are like this.. Fantasy Earth Zero, Cabal, Aika.. to name a few.
4. I'd love for everything you said about F2P games to be true, but here's some more things you didn't think about.
when I pay my 12.95 a month for FFXI which I think is the lowest monthly fee for a AAA mmo there is. You never have to pay more than that no matter what you do, or how much you play. If I want to play 12 hrs a day every day for a month, I will never pay more than 12.95 for that month.
If I decided I wanted to play heavily in some free to play game. I could spend 3X that amount just on the items I'd need to sustain myself during that time. That and the fact that its alot easier to keep spending money on things, when the list of things you need/want is almost infinite. With a monthly fee, I pay one price and get everything..
Look at it like this..
You go to a carnival.
Its "armband" night. You can get an armband that will let you ride any ride, as many times as you want for 15.00
OR..
You can pay 3 to 4.00 per ride.
Now, if you KNOW you only want to ride one or two rides. The 2nd choice might be better for you. But, for most people they will want to be able to choose to ride any ride they want, as many times as they want without limits. By the time I ride the scrambler 6 times... I've already spent the 15.00 and I'm just geting started!
Same thing applies here. that 12.95 I pay.. I've already gotten my moneys worth out of, before the month is even over. When I might wind up spending that in a day, in a free to play game if I'm not careful.
I can see how FTP games COULD be cheaper, if you are a kid or are extremely frugal with your time and money.. but for the majority of us.. we'd rather spend 15 bucks and get unlimited access, than spend 3 and 4 bucks here and there for extremely limited access. So what if I don't want to play a paladin, thats my choice.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Then how do you explain my enjoyment of DDO/LOTRO/POTBS without paying a dime? I had a fun time. I didn't pay anything. If that is not FREE, i don't know what is.
P2P are really the only games I will play.
And also, apperantly you forgot to throw Sony in there silly rabbit.
$14.99 a month for gold and you still have to buy races and stuff, bunch of bullshit.
Everquest and Everquest 2 Veteran.
Noone said you can't have "fun" for free. Fun translates different to different people.
For some people, its fun to go to the movies and stand outside of it and never actually pay to see a movie. For me that would be boring and a waste of time.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Cool story... except for the part where you took everything i said completely the wrong way and applie dit to yourself as an individual based on your own personal circumstances. Does everyone make the same amount of money as you? Is their time worth the same $ as yours? Does everyone even have a value they can place on their time? Does everyone else feel exactly the same as you about how much your time is worth?
See, you took all the stuff i said, which yes youre right was generalizing, and then while bitching about my generalizing tried to argue with me using your personal information. YOUR time might be worth some $, but how about the jobless 19 year old kid mooching off his parents with no income of his own and not a single $ to his name? Would you say his time is just as valuable as yours?
Anyway, the entire point is, the games are free 2 play, not free 2 have instant gratification and every single thing in the game accomplished in 1 second and without spending 1 cent. Nobody has ever said that they dont require time investments, thats NOT what they are advertised as. They are advertised as free, as in $ value. You cant apply a $ value to time in an MMO, because it differs for every single person in the world. You are not the center of the MMO universe, and value is not based upon you. So you have a choice.... which do you have more of, free time or extra $? Either one of those will get you what you want from their shop. You are not required to have the $ if you have the time to spare instead.
Not only that, but regardless of how you try to argue it, no your time does not = $. When you are at work, that may be the case, but that does not apply 24/7. The minute you stop working or doing whatever it is you do to make money, your time no longer holds any $ value. So when youre playing the game, no your time does not = $.
self-employed
overtime payments
extra side projects that could mean $$$
You just broke half the logic in economics with that statement.
Forums: The best real-time interactive MMORPG you'll ever be in.
How so?
When youre logged into an MMO, are you doing any of those things you mentioned? No. Your time spent playing an MMO does not = the same value as your time while working / being productive, unless youre somehow getting paid to play that game.
Yes you COULD be making money during that time instead of playing, but youre playing instead and therefore your time no longer hold sthat same value. You are making the choice to forfeit that time that could be spent making money.
Same goes for many other things. I dont know about you, but most of us dont get paid to sleep, eat, watch tv, go shopping, etc. All of those things require time. Your enot getting paid during that time, and so during that time your time = $0.
Besides, what are they supposed to do? Listen to Mike, and hire a bunch of staff who goes through in depth interviews with every single player and figure out exactly how much we all make per hour, how much time we spend playing, etc an dthen calculate it all and based on each of our lifestyles offer us different payment plans for every item in the game because "well your time is worth more $ than this other person, so if youre going to buy an XP potion that will save you an hour of grinding, you should be forced to pay as much as you make per hour IRL".
Pirates of the burning sea, your welcome
I am still waiting for someone to justify how a "free" to play MMO that you make real money purchases in is free? Seems to me that if you put down any money, you are a PAYING customer and I don't care how or what you spend it on. So to me, calling a game "free-to-play" is nothing more then a scam that weak minded or unthinking individuals are sucked into thinking they are getting something for nothing. Just my two cents (so this post is not "free").
Let's party like it is 1863!
**sigh**
You are NOT REQUIRED to spend any of that money. It is OPTIONAL to spend it if you want more stuff, or faster leveling or whatever.
P2P = you HAVE to pay to play the game
F2P = you play for free, any $ transactions are your choice
Have you ever tried upgrading your gear to max upgrade level without spending TONS of real cash? Of course you DO NOT have to spend that money.. but then you can go fight a player with your +3 gear that has +10 everything... and have absolutely no way to win against him.. Yea sure.. you can play free for life.. which equates to being a "froob" and sucking hardcore.
time spent offhours is not equal to time spent working but it does not mean that that portion of time is valued at $0 just because you're not actively gaining money. it's worth less but not $0, which is why it's usually considered a negative accumulation of debts which is then equalled out via your other activities, like gaming (enjoyment -> quality of life rising), shopping (injecting money back into the economy), etc.
let's put it this way: (your money earned per hour while working * -1) + (you spending money or earning something that can/cannot be valued according to standard rates) = value of your time not gaining money.
In practice: if you feel that enjoyment is worth infinite more than money can ever provide, then your time is valued positive and you are not wasting time, nor is your time valued at $0. In economics, it means you raised your quality of life via enjoyment.
If you feel that the blog post you're writing in your spare time isn't that productive and the emotional side-effects/writing practice/whatever isn't worth as much as the money you could make, you're making some waste of your time, which could be anywhere from -$5 to whatever you feel.
It's either that or I'm making zero sense. Sorry 'bout that.
Forums: The best real-time interactive MMORPG you'll ever be in.
Sorry.... you seem to have confused Free 2 Play with Free 2 be the best.
Playing is playing, regardless of wether youre getting your ass kicked by people or not. It doesnt change the fact that is free to play. There are millions of people out there paying monthly subs and getting their asses kicked just as hard.
Btw, yes I actually have done what you said in several games, and gotten lucky enough to be equal to what people were spending money for. RF online is one example. I occassionaly spent money on some things like XP pots (because the grind was a pain in the ass), but when it came to gear i manually upgraded my things using ingame upgraders and kicked the shit out of most people.
I did the same in Rohan shortly after it launched and actually had what for many months was the strongest weapon (by a lot) on the server for 2 of my characters. I actually seemed to get very very lucky with upgrades and quickly became "the crafter" for my guild. Everyone would give me their weapons & upgrade mats and have me do the upgrading since i had like a 75% success rate when most of them had like 25%. Made quite a few very nice weapons in that game.
Oh.. well sorry I made such a huge error.. Ive played maybe 3 F2(insert word that makes your poor ass sound smart) They are garbage. Thats why I subscribe to 4 different games. Never get bored and never have a desire/need to spend more..
Btw Im pretty sure you are the exception.. not the rule :P
Nah, youre making sense, and i somewhat agree with you. But thing is, these companies are not responsible for your value of life. Theyre responsible for providing a game to play, and thats it. The only thing they have control over when it comes to your "time value" is how much youre paying in cold hard $. Everything outside of that is based on your own individual opinions, preferences, etc. They cannot put a $ on your time. They simply put a $ on your access to a game, or an item. What you do with that game / item, and how much time you spending using it is completely up to you.
WSIMike was trying to argue that you can put a $ on your time, but thats only true while actively making money. As far as value of life, which is more what youre talking about, it is only partially made up of money as well as many many other factors. Yes you can put a value of life on your time spent doing things, but you cant put a $ on every single thing you do unless that thing is either making you money, or costing you money in direct proportion to the time spent.
Just as an example, if MMOs charged us hourly rates, then yeah you could say every hour spent in the game is worth a certain amount of $. But rather than that, we are charged monthly, and the time we spend playing within that month can range from 0 to a couple hundred, varying with each person.
Anyway, my main point i was making in my reply to Mike was that yes, if an individual wants to, they can certainly sit there and say every hour of my life = X number of $. Doe sthat make it true? No. Does an MMO company care, and does your own self worth matter to them or determine how much you pay? Nope. So basically, his entire pissy argument about how im soooo wrong about how much HIS time is worth, is entirely pointless. Someone opinion of their own self worth and how much their time is worth does not translate into $ in eithe rthe real world or the virtual world.
I might feel my time is worth $500 an hour. Does that mean im going to get it because I say so?
Well, those particular game smay have been garbage, but by your logic, since a few F2P games were badm that mean stheyre all bad. And so since a few P2P games are good, that must automatically make them all good too.
I think we can all agree, thats very far from the truth. There are tons of P2P games that are absolute garbage too.
You, like many others, are biased about an entire genre because of a couple of bad experiences. On the other hand, ive played several dozen of both F2P and P2P games, and ive seen the good and the bad on both sides. Im not saying all F2P games are good, i know damn well theyre not, but there are some very good ones out there that are much better than many "AAA" P2P games in several ways. Judging all F2P games, based on a few is well... its basically the same as prejudice/racism due to a few bad experiences with members of another race. People assume that all people of a certain race are a certain way because of a few of them being that way. That certainly doesnt mean theyre right, no wdoes it?
Ive played F2P games that I wasnt able to stand playing mor ethan a couple hours, and ive also played some that have kept me addicted to them playing several hours a day, every day for months. Same goes for P2P games.
Its just annoying watching people shun a very large group of games, based usually on a very tiny sampling of whats out there or on what F2P games used to be like. The F2P games being released in the past 2-3 years tend to be much higher quality than what we were seeing 5 or so years ago. Meanwhile, P2P games seem to have gotten worse and worse, or at best stayed the same in quality vs $.
you're saying "yes i agree" then saying "no I don't agree" to a statement that is exactly what I said...
what the holy fuck ARE you talking about.
everything sounds and reads like a mindfuck to me since you're turning everything hypothetical about the "value of time" theory into a real-hard-cash situation which just won't work, because the theory stands only if you understand that it is not guaranteed to transform into cash. It's just a way of calculating whether something is worth your time or not.
I give up.
also, because I'm still a noob at everything, I wiki'd "value of life". definition: the value you put on one's entire life. A bit like how Steve Jobs is valued at a certain number, or etc
value of time, on the other hand...
/giving up again.
Forums: The best real-time interactive MMORPG you'll ever be in.
Sorry, i know i tend to rant about shit in a weird way sometimes. You also may not understand where some of it is coming from if you hadnt read WSIMike's reply to one of my earlier posts where he for some reason seems to have taken offense at the fact that i said how "your" time (speaking of people in general) does not = $. I was generalizing, he made it personal, saying basically how dare i tell him his time isnt valuable, because his time = $.... even though he isnt making money while playing the game.
Ill simplify it:
Time working (or whatever you do to make a living) = $
Time doing other things, such as playing an MMO does not = $. Yes it has other value, such as entertainment, but it does not directly translate into $
Value =/= $
$ is only a part of the equation, and it is not the only form that value takes.
Edit: Well that isnt exactly value of life, thats his net worth. But yes net worth can be a part of the equation in value of life, since it allows you to buy things that are a part of the equation.
You hit the nail on the head though, yes its value of time. I wasnt correct with Value of life. As far as value of time, as i said in this post, $ is not the only form of value.
Anyway, doesnt matter, my original posts werent meant to go into this long discussion. It was a reply really to Mike pretty much insisting that time = $, for everyone in all situations. I was pointing out that that is not true, and is different from person to person. HE argued that F2P isnt really F2P, even if you spend no $, because time = money, so by spending time in a game to earn things for free, youre still paying for it even if you spend $0.
While I will agree that F2P games can be far more expensive than p2p games depending on the player I will say this:
f2p games have flexibility.
Some people that play casually, or play heavily for two weeks and then start playing a console game for the next two (like me), really benefit from the f2p model. When I sub to a game, I always feel obligated to play to justify my subscription. I wasted a month of WoW (because I bought a 2 month gamecard, and didn't play much in the last month) and a month on Vanguard because I subbed for another month but then became unexpectedly busy. On the other hand, I have spent only $20 on DDO and have been playing on and off for months and almost have enough DDO points saved up from favor to buy more content. Although I understand that DDO has a comparatively awesome freemium system compared to other models (particularly the asian grinders).
I would also like to address the claim that f2p games are crap. Some said that DDO for instance must be crap, and that is why it is now free. That is not necessarily true - DDO's gameplay doesn't lend itself well to the subscription model because youre meant to replay dungeons over and over... It is not a large, persistent world in the vein of WoW or EverQuest. The f2p model worked well for DDO because it makes sense to buy a game that is structured in this way, a la carte.
I do not believe all f2p games are crap because they have introduced some unique games to the genre:
Sword 2
Atlantica Online
Faxion
Savage 2
League of Legends
Megaten
MapleStory
Vindictus
Mabinogi
Conquer Online (for an eastern themed MMO and it was one of the first free MMOs, although I realize there are plenty of eastern themed f2p MMOs now. As far as I am aware, there aren't any p2p ones, correct me if I am wrong).
Many of these games provide for a niche market. Many asian f2p games attract otakus and anime fans with their anime style graphics and art direction.
Some f2p games have a considerable budget behind them such as Allods (12 mil) and Loong (10 mil) and are fairly impressive to play and look at.
These observations in no way mean there aren't games that have game breaking pay to win systems and little to no customer service. It may even be dangerous to use your credit card with these games because there is a possibility that hackers may obtain your information. However, it is unfair to say all f2p games are like this, because they are not and there are some unique and quality offerings out there.
On the other hand, f2p and freemium games aren't true discount games. There benefit is flexibility - access the games server whether you have paid a dime or not and buy what you want, and ignore what you won't necessarily miss, but there are games that are actually just cheaper all around. These games are:
Dofus (part of the game is free, sub is $6.90 a month, only $64.99 for a year)
Runescape (partly free, $5.95 a month)
Ryzom (free until level 125, then $10.95 a month which is stil cheaper than the market price of $15.00)
These games arguably have unique qualities that make them worth playing beyond their cheap price as well.
DDO also qualifies because right now it has free content, only $9.99 a month, which includes 500 free turbine points a month and apprently lets you roll a character start out on level 4. That is a pretty sweet deal. I still choose to pay as I go though, for the aformentioned flexibility.
Favorites: Vanguard SOH, Final Fantasy XI, Dungeons and Dragons Online
Future:
Final Fantasy XIV 2.0
EverQuest NEXT
Wizardry Online
Vanguard F2P edition (fingers crossed)
http://vgrpgblog.blogspot.com/
That's all you needed to say, really, to debunk my reply.
As for F2P not being F2P, the only way one can go about that is if you can't progress through the game without spending cash or using cash items (which a lot of F2P games I've encountered have done so).
Forums: The best real-time interactive MMORPG you'll ever be in.
Some F2P games are actually F2P. I never felt gimped out while playing Cabal Online for free, or 2 Moons / Dekaron. I never payed a dime in Cabal Online for anything other than Premium to get more exp / skill gain and teleporting abilities. That was it. I got to level 120 as a warrior too and pvped alot. Never had any issues with people paying to get overpowered or anything.
Yeah, at the time we were talking specifically about LOTRO, which allows you to either pay $ for content & items, or earn points in the game which can be spent the same way.
He insisted its not really F2P, even though he can earn everything the game offers without spending a cent, because he had to spend time earning them. Basically, unless you get to play for free as well as have every single thing they offer handed to you for free with no time or $ investment whatsoever, its not free... even though he didnt spend $.
My favorite thing about F2P games is that it doesnt hurt when i unistall them after 1-10 hours of playing.
You assume wrongly that others need to go fight this player at the end game.
The beauty of F2P games is that you can just play a few hours, have fun, and move onto the next one. No commitment, no need to get serious. They are games, not marriages.