Any system shouldn't be considered good or bad on its own but on how it relates to the game as a whole..
Strangely I quite enjoy the intricate time-consuming crafting in Xsyon (not right now but i did) but I wouldn't want something like that in GW2.
It's time for this genre to grow up beyond "one game to rule them all" imo.
Exactly. If I want to play an MMO because I love complex crafting then I'd play an MMO with that as one of it's core focuses and if I want to play an MMO to have fun I'll play Guild Wars 2. Just sad that people still expect Guild Wars 2 to come out with features that will fulfill all of their needs, forcing the community manager & devs to constantly clarify things and re-iterate their stance. And still people constantly bring out the torches, as soon as something is mentioned that doesn't appease them like: the elementalist not getting a weapon swap, the warrior being able to use a longbows well, ranger's pets that seem to die a lot (when the owner forgets about them), the Guardian being so support-centric, the thief being able to stealth, the lack of dedicated raid content, the lack of dedicated healers, the lack of an overly complex crafting system. The list goes on.
I've only been a part of the MMO genre/community for a few months & some parts just annoy the hell out of me.
I've played 15+ mmos and have yet to see an overly complex crafting system let along a complex one. IN DEPTH ones yes, overly complex or even complex NO. Even SWG (the best crafting system ever) was'nt complex it just needed some thinking if you wanted to make the best items. Now I know the avarge wow player does'nt like to or can't think but what about those of us who DO. Why SHOULD'NT GW2 have an in depth crafting system for those that LIKE to craft so they can do it and those that don't can just buy items just like what happend in SWG. Just like GW2 will have a indepth pvp system for those that like it and one that can be totaly avoided for those like me who don't
[Mod Edit]
If you want a truly complex crafting system, why don't you put an idea together yourself? Because it is one thing to say you want a "complex crafting system", it's an entirely different thing to know how one can be put together. You can talk about "truly complex" all you want but until YOU know what one is, your words are less than air.
You forgot about having this "complex crafting system" fitting in with the other systems in the game.
My thoughts exactly..
The problem with complex and ambitious sub-systems is that they kinda impose themselves on the whole. It's like that proverbial gun on the wall that has to be fired at least once before the end of the play.
I guess there could concievably be a very complex in-depth crafting system within GW2 as it is but... if you make it too powerful in effect you basically force everyone to use it whether they like it or not. On the other hand if the results are too weak then so small a portion of players are going to utilize it that it would hardly merit the development cost and effort.
A good example of this type of game-design pitfall is the droids in SWTOR.. They are so crucial to the game that I'm 100% sure that EVERYONE will have a droid.. thus negating their uniqueness and a sense of being special and ultimately rendering them not only useless (everyone has one) but actively detrimental to the game (OH NO! EVERYBODY HAS ONE!)
If that was even true then why will there be World PvP & Structed PvP, because I doubt people will be skipping around /hugging everyone in those environments. I agree that competition between players is not the "big evil" in the MMO space but; ganking, ninja looting, ninja mining and general griefing is. I really wish you'd stop bringing up how you hate that GW2 will stop people like you from ganking and griefing wherever you want, leaving you without anyway to jerk off your e-peen. It's just not gonna happen, so get over it. Instead of moaning about it everyday, why not just go play on the PvP servers of Rift and gank some Guardians trying to close a Rift. That seems to be the kind of game that'll get griefers all hard. :P
My post has nothing to do with PvP and isn't specific to GW2, it is a trend in all new MMOs. The heavy instancing, shared XP for mobs when not grouped, no competition in the PQ/DE, cross server dungeons etc. This is a trend in all MMOs. Competition between players forces interaction in a way that helps build a stronger community. Playing a game like WoW you ignore 99% of the player base unless you are specifically grouped with them because the entire system is built so players never come in conflict. Games like EQ and UO had 10 times the community of these new MMOs.
As for PvP, your post shows you really don't understand what makes people enjoy world PvP so that wouldn't be worth discussing with you. You couldn't pay me to play Rift though, that is a soul-less rehash of WoW.
Yes actually I did. I spent about 6 months as a BE and became very good at. Mostly the chef and tailor adds but I still managed to make some very nice creatures. I did'nt find it that complex. But thats me. I can see how others might of. Yes the BE was probley the "most" complex of the crafting professions but its still was'nt that hard or that complex really. Like I said it just required some thought. Yes I will never forgive SOE for what they did to SWG with the cu/nge and will NEVER play another mmo they have anything to do with.
But thats not the point. THE POINT was I hate pvp BUT i'm not asking for it to be a cut and paste job form wow like some people are with crafting. SO WHY if anet can spend so much time on something as unimportant as pvp why can't they spend a little more time on something a LOT more players would enjoy IE crafting. The discovery system is pointless as 90% or more of the recipes will be on the wiki BEFORE the game even goes live. That is unless they totaly change all the recipes between the end of open beta and the launch of the game. Which would be a lot of work at a time when I'm sure they have much better things to do.
I would'nt want a truely complex crafting system as too many people could'nt handle it. I WOULD like one thats not so simple and where there is room to make your self special. In this one if I make a max axe it will be the same as the one anyone else makes. I want there to be room for me to make a BETTER axe than someone else if I put the time and effort into it
Many of GW1s players love PvP. To not spend a lot of work on it would be letting those players down. The GW1 fans don't even have crafting so any system there is a step forward.
I agree with you that this system is far from optimal, but at least it has little grind. The usual EQ/EQ2/Wow mechanics are not better at all, they just leads to people making loads of vendortrash. This anyways means that all people can craft a lot of the things in the game but there will be rare dropped recipes and a few you get from quests and possibly factions as well.
The thing that upsets me is actually that I can't decide how the item looks.
So my opinion is: Could be worse, could be like Wow.
The GW1 pvp system was very well done and could of just been ported stright to GW2 with very little effort. So WHY waste so much time and effort on something that no more that 25% of the player base at most uses and thats works so well all ready when they could of spent it something that a lot more people like and was'nt so well made IE Crafting. Like i said before they have'nt removed the grind at all they just moved it from the crafting side to the find the recipe side
I'm guessing the Meowhead from GW2guru is the same one on here and this is from his post on there.There are a "COMPLETELY ridiculous total of 18,974,736 possibilities to check. All in a single crafting job." So in "normal" crafting systems you have to make 100's of useless items how ever in THIS one you have to go though 000's or more likely 10,000's of useless perumtations of mats to find ONE recipe. Thats WAY worse that wow. I've never really bothed about how the item looks and I much more intrested in the stats and if those make my toon better. if I had the choice between a silly looking hat that gave me +20 to a stat I use vs a "nice" looking one that gave me +15 I would take the silly one every time
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
I'm guessing the Meowhead from GW2guru is the same one on here and this is from his post on there.There are a "COMPLETELY ridiculous total of 18,974,736 possibilities to check. All in a single crafting job." So in "normal" crafting systems you have to make 100's of useless items how ever in THIS one you have to go though 000's or more likely 10,000's of useless perumtations of mats to find ONE recipe. Thats WAY worse that wow. vbmenu_register("postmenu_608674", true);
Nah, that was me busy doing bad math! Using the same figure of 66 crafting materials (The crafting materials in GW1 + The crafting materials in a single screenshot of the jewelry class), you are just short of 290,000 possibilities. That's way more sane of a number, not in the millions at all!
Actually, if you ONLY go with the crafting materials shown in the screenshot, and magically assume there is also gold jewelry, you end up with a mere 29,000 possibilities for jewelers. Why, that's just a few bored minutes of your time, I'm sure.
It's also worth noting that you automatically learn things like 'axe hilt' and 'axe blade' as you level up your profession. If it takes you 100s of tries to figure out how to make an axe, you should probably just stop playing games now, because you're bad at them.
From the look of the jeweler components (Tin/bronze/copper/silver filigree/chain/band/hook/setting), most of the jewelry should be pretty easy. to make. I'll give you one right here! Copper band + copper setting + emerald.
I bet that'll make something.
All the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components. I wasn't trying to prove that it'll be impossible to craft (It should be fairly easy to get the basic stuff, from the looks of it), I was trying to prove that it would be a daunting task (To say the least) to categorize ALL the possible combinations, and it's going to be some crazy off brand combo (tin setting + bronze hook + feather + ruby ) that ends up being the rare stuff a person could theoretically corner the market on until it makes its eventual way to wiki.
I'm guessing the Meowhead from GW2guru is the same one on here and this is from his post on there.There are a "COMPLETELY ridiculous total of 18,974,736 possibilities to check. All in a single crafting job." So in "normal" crafting systems you have to make 100's of useless items how ever in THIS one you have to go though 000's or more likely 10,000's of useless perumtations of mats to find ONE recipe. Thats WAY worse that wow. vbmenu_register("postmenu_608674", true);
Nah, that was me busy doing bad math! Using the same figure of 66 crafting materials (The crafting materials in GW1 + The crafting materials in a single screenshot of the jewelry class), you are just short of 290,000 possibilities. That's way more sane of a number, not in the millions at all!
Actually, if you ONLY go with the crafting materials shown in the screenshot, and magically assume there is also gold jewelry, you end up with a mere 29,000 possibilities for jewelers. Why, that's just a few bored minutes of your time, I'm sure.
It's also worth noting that you automatically learn things like 'axe hilt' and 'axe blade' as you level up your profession. If it takes you 100s of tries to figure out how to make an axe, you should probably just stop playing games now, because you're bad at them.
From the look of the jeweler components (Tin/bronze/copper/silver filigree/chain/band/hook/setting), most of the jewelry should be pretty easy. to make. I'll give you one right here! Copper band + copper setting + emerald.
I bet that'll make something.
All the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components. I wasn't trying to prove that it'll be impossible to craft (It should be fairly easy to get the basic stuff, from the looks of it), I was trying to prove that it would be a daunting task (To say the least) to categorize ALL the possible combinations, and it's going to be some crazy off brand combo (tin setting + bronze hook + feather + ruby ) that ends up being the rare stuff a person could theoretically corner the market on until it makes its eventual way to wiki.
Where does it say you AUTOMATICLY learn things like axe blade and axe hilt? Because in the article I think you got it from I read you HAVE to discover them. Now admitly if all you need to do is put some metal ingots or wood planks in the crafting pannel to make then thats not going to be hard. And yes if you have an axe handle and a axe head its obvious that if you put the two together that you will get an axe. So simple items are simple to make I never said otherwise. But what happends when you get to the high lvl more complex items, even if its "only" 29,000 combinations thats still going to take a LOT longer to try than to make than the 100 or so items to lvl in other crafting systems. And this is just for ONE recipe.
IF as you say "all the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components" Then it will all be on the wiki before the game even goes live. Unless they change it between end of open beta and when the game goes LIVE which I very much doubt as they will have MUCH more important stuff to do. So why bother with this discovery system at all then. I mean whats the point ?
edited a typo
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
I'm guessing the Meowhead from GW2guru is the same one on here and this is from his post on there.There are a "COMPLETELY ridiculous total of 18,974,736 possibilities to check. All in a single crafting job." So in "normal" crafting systems you have to make 100's of useless items how ever in THIS one you have to go though 000's or more likely 10,000's of useless perumtations of mats to find ONE recipe. Thats WAY worse that wow. vbmenu_register("postmenu_608674", true);
Nah, that was me busy doing bad math! Using the same figure of 66 crafting materials (The crafting materials in GW1 + The crafting materials in a single screenshot of the jewelry class), you are just short of 290,000 possibilities. That's way more sane of a number, not in the millions at all!
Actually, if you ONLY go with the crafting materials shown in the screenshot, and magically assume there is also gold jewelry, you end up with a mere 29,000 possibilities for jewelers. Why, that's just a few bored minutes of your time, I'm sure.
It's also worth noting that you automatically learn things like 'axe hilt' and 'axe blade' as you level up your profession. If it takes you 100s of tries to figure out how to make an axe, you should probably just stop playing games now, because you're bad at them.
From the look of the jeweler components (Tin/bronze/copper/silver filigree/chain/band/hook/setting), most of the jewelry should be pretty easy. to make. I'll give you one right here! Copper band + copper setting + emerald.
I bet that'll make something.
All the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components. I wasn't trying to prove that it'll be impossible to craft (It should be fairly easy to get the basic stuff, from the looks of it), I was trying to prove that it would be a daunting task (To say the least) to categorize ALL the possible combinations, and it's going to be some crazy off brand combo (tin setting + bronze hook + feather + ruby ) that ends up being the rare stuff a person could theoretically corner the market on until it makes its eventual way to wiki.
Where does it say you AUTOMATICLY learn things like axe blade and axe hilt? Because in the article I think you got it from I read you HAVE to discover them. Now admitly if all you need to do is put some metal ingots or wood planks in the crafting pannel to make then thats not going to be hard. And yes if you have an axe handle and a axe head its obvious that if you put the two together that you will get an axe. So simple items are simple to make I never said otherwise. But what happends when you get to the high lvl more complex items, even if its "only" 29,000 combinations thats still going to take a LOT longer to try than to make than the 100 or so items to lvl in other crafting systems. And this is just for ONE recipe.
IF as you say "all the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components" Then it will all be on the wiki before the game even goes live. Unless they change it between end of open beta and when the game goes LIVE which I very much doubt as they will have MUCH more important stuff to do. So why bother with this dsicovery system at all then. I mean whats the point ?
Ask and you shall recieve.
"As a character crafts items they will gain crafting experience. As they advance in their profession they will automatically learn new recipes for standard components. The player can then try to combine these standard components into other items to discover new recipes. For example, as a weaponsmith I automatically know the recipes for turning copper and tin ore into bronze ingots and for taking green wood logs and turning them into soft wood planks. If I place copper ingots in the crafting window while at an anvil I can make a copper axehead and similarly if I take the green wood planks to a workbench I can make an axe haft. I don't actually have a recipe for an axe but if I combine those two items then I will create a basic axe and the recipe will be stored in my recipe list. With further experimentation and by adding other ingredients I might be able to make a statistically better or different looking axe. "
We understand that this system of discovery can be circumvented by looking at the wiki but we treat this as we do any other spoiler information. For example the fact that a player could at anytime go spoil the end of their personal story by looking it up does not keep us from trying to create an exciting story that may have some twists in it. If a player wants to go find recipe knowledge then they are free to do so and they can skip over the part of crafting that they might find tedious, such as grinding through recipes to finally get to the one they want to make. For players who really enjoy the discovery style of play and take more time to explore the possibilities of the system then they can do that as well.
I've seen many players reacting to our announced system and lamenting the fact that it is not more complex or innovative. There are many different ways we could have taken this system and we have done what we feel is best to support the rest of our game. For example, some games feature a gathering system that consists of some sort of gathering mini game. We didn't think that was the right way for us to go given the other goals of our game. We want players in the open world to feel like they are cooperating, never resent other players, and be able to respond to the dynamic nature of the world around them. If players needed to stop for 30-40 seconds every time they came across a gathering node then soon the other players that are playing with them who might not be particularly interested in gathering might grow impatient and the overall pacing and flow of their game experience would be interrupted. This tends to be a source of player tension where you might hear statements like “is that guy going to mine again? We need to get over to the garrison!” When designing a feature it is always important for us to consider how that feature impacts every other part of the game and make the choices that enhance the play experience we are trying to foster.
The one thing I know that will inevitebley happen is griefers, running throughout the world shouting the end to personal stories with a macro over and over again, attempting to spoil the game for as many people as possible. I dont hink there is any way to check this type of behavior really.
I have not noticed this in other MMOs where people are trying to spoil the story.
Granted there is very little to destroy since there has ben very little story... with the personal stories and personal instances, I think its going to be quite a bit more elaborate than in past MMOs I think
I'm guessing the Meowhead from GW2guru is the same one on here and this is from his post on there.There are a "COMPLETELY ridiculous total of 18,974,736 possibilities to check. All in a single crafting job." So in "normal" crafting systems you have to make 100's of useless items how ever in THIS one you have to go though 000's or more likely 10,000's of useless perumtations of mats to find ONE recipe. Thats WAY worse that wow. vbmenu_register("postmenu_608674", true);
Nah, that was me busy doing bad math! Using the same figure of 66 crafting materials (The crafting materials in GW1 + The crafting materials in a single screenshot of the jewelry class), you are just short of 290,000 possibilities. That's way more sane of a number, not in the millions at all!
Actually, if you ONLY go with the crafting materials shown in the screenshot, and magically assume there is also gold jewelry, you end up with a mere 29,000 possibilities for jewelers. Why, that's just a few bored minutes of your time, I'm sure.
It's also worth noting that you automatically learn things like 'axe hilt' and 'axe blade' as you level up your profession. If it takes you 100s of tries to figure out how to make an axe, you should probably just stop playing games now, because you're bad at them.
From the look of the jeweler components (Tin/bronze/copper/silver filigree/chain/band/hook/setting), most of the jewelry should be pretty easy. to make. I'll give you one right here! Copper band + copper setting + emerald.
I bet that'll make something.
All the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components. I wasn't trying to prove that it'll be impossible to craft (It should be fairly easy to get the basic stuff, from the looks of it), I was trying to prove that it would be a daunting task (To say the least) to categorize ALL the possible combinations, and it's going to be some crazy off brand combo (tin setting + bronze hook + feather + ruby ) that ends up being the rare stuff a person could theoretically corner the market on until it makes its eventual way to wiki.
Where does it say you AUTOMATICLY learn things like axe blade and axe hilt? Because in the article I think you got it from I read you HAVE to discover them. Now admitly if all you need to do is put some metal ingots or wood planks in the crafting pannel to make then thats not going to be hard. And yes if you have an axe handle and a axe head its obvious that if you put the two together that you will get an axe. So simple items are simple to make I never said otherwise. But what happends when you get to the high lvl more complex items, even if its "only" 29,000 combinations thats still going to take a LOT longer to try than to make than the 100 or so items to lvl in other crafting systems. And this is just for ONE recipe.
IF as you say "all the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components" Then it will all be on the wiki before the game even goes live. Unless they change it between end of open beta and when the game goes LIVE which I very much doubt as they will have MUCH more important stuff to do. So why bother with this dsicovery system at all then. I mean whats the point ?
Ask and you shall recieve.
"As a character crafts items they will gain crafting experience. As they advance in their profession they will automatically learn new recipes for standard components. The player can then try to combine these standard components into other items to discover new recipes. For example, as a weaponsmith I automatically know the recipes for turning copper and tin ore into bronze ingots and for taking green wood logs and turning them into soft wood planks. If I place copper ingots in the crafting window while at an anvil I can make a copper axehead and similarly if I take the green wood planks to a workbench I can make an axe haft. I don't actually have a recipe for an axe but if I combine those two items then I will create a basic axe and the recipe will be stored in my recipe list. With further experimentation and by adding other ingredients I might be able to make a statistically better or different looking axe. "
The last question in the article is about crafting.
Hmmm I read that article how did I miss this. BTW you seen from the guru topic the number of combos if there just 36 resources is 201, 599, 390, 044, 900, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 possible combinations. That will take more than a few mins to try
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
I'm guessing the Meowhead from GW2guru is the same one on here and this is from his post on there.There are a "COMPLETELY ridiculous total of 18,974,736 possibilities to check. All in a single crafting job." So in "normal" crafting systems you have to make 100's of useless items how ever in THIS one you have to go though 000's or more likely 10,000's of useless perumtations of mats to find ONE recipe. Thats WAY worse that wow. vbmenu_register("postmenu_608674", true);
Nah, that was me busy doing bad math! Using the same figure of 66 crafting materials (The crafting materials in GW1 + The crafting materials in a single screenshot of the jewelry class), you are just short of 290,000 possibilities. That's way more sane of a number, not in the millions at all!
Actually, if you ONLY go with the crafting materials shown in the screenshot, and magically assume there is also gold jewelry, you end up with a mere 29,000 possibilities for jewelers. Why, that's just a few bored minutes of your time, I'm sure.
It's also worth noting that you automatically learn things like 'axe hilt' and 'axe blade' as you level up your profession. If it takes you 100s of tries to figure out how to make an axe, you should probably just stop playing games now, because you're bad at them.
From the look of the jeweler components (Tin/bronze/copper/silver filigree/chain/band/hook/setting), most of the jewelry should be pretty easy. to make. I'll give you one right here! Copper band + copper setting + emerald.
I bet that'll make something.
All the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components. I wasn't trying to prove that it'll be impossible to craft (It should be fairly easy to get the basic stuff, from the looks of it), I was trying to prove that it would be a daunting task (To say the least) to categorize ALL the possible combinations, and it's going to be some crazy off brand combo (tin setting + bronze hook + feather + ruby ) that ends up being the rare stuff a person could theoretically corner the market on until it makes its eventual way to wiki.
Where does it say you AUTOMATICLY learn things like axe blade and axe hilt? Because in the article I think you got it from I read you HAVE to discover them. Now admitly if all you need to do is put some metal ingots or wood planks in the crafting pannel to make then thats not going to be hard. And yes if you have an axe handle and a axe head its obvious that if you put the two together that you will get an axe. So simple items are simple to make I never said otherwise. But what happends when you get to the high lvl more complex items, even if its "only" 29,000 combinations thats still going to take a LOT longer to try than to make than the 100 or so items to lvl in other crafting systems. And this is just for ONE recipe.
IF as you say "all the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components" Then it will all be on the wiki before the game even goes live. Unless they change it between end of open beta and when the game goes LIVE which I very much doubt as they will have MUCH more important stuff to do. So why bother with this dsicovery system at all then. I mean whats the point ?
Ask and you shall recieve.
"As a character crafts items they will gain crafting experience. As they advance in their profession they will automatically learn new recipes for standard components. The player can then try to combine these standard components into other items to discover new recipes. For example, as a weaponsmith I automatically know the recipes for turning copper and tin ore into bronze ingots and for taking green wood logs and turning them into soft wood planks. If I place copper ingots in the crafting window while at an anvil I can make a copper axehead and similarly if I take the green wood planks to a workbench I can make an axe haft. I don't actually have a recipe for an axe but if I combine those two items then I will create a basic axe and the recipe will be stored in my recipe list. With further experimentation and by adding other ingredients I might be able to make a statistically better or different looking axe. "
The last question in the article is about crafting.
Hmmm I read that article how did I miss this. BTW you seen from the guru topic the number of combos if there just 36 resources is 201, 599, 390, 044, 900, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 possible combinations. That will take more than a few mins to try
I believe that is what is supposed to be fun, although I really doubt there is that many combinations. Those numbers are probably taking into account the numbers of every crafting profession and putting them together. You won't be mixing bronze filigree with a sword hilt.
I'm guessing the Meowhead from GW2guru is the same one on here and this is from his post on there.There are a "COMPLETELY ridiculous total of 18,974,736 possibilities to check. All in a single crafting job." So in "normal" crafting systems you have to make 100's of useless items how ever in THIS one you have to go though 000's or more likely 10,000's of useless perumtations of mats to find ONE recipe. Thats WAY worse that wow. vbmenu_register("postmenu_608674", true);
Nah, that was me busy doing bad math! Using the same figure of 66 crafting materials (The crafting materials in GW1 + The crafting materials in a single screenshot of the jewelry class), you are just short of 290,000 possibilities. That's way more sane of a number, not in the millions at all!
Actually, if you ONLY go with the crafting materials shown in the screenshot, and magically assume there is also gold jewelry, you end up with a mere 29,000 possibilities for jewelers. Why, that's just a few bored minutes of your time, I'm sure.
It's also worth noting that you automatically learn things like 'axe hilt' and 'axe blade' as you level up your profession. If it takes you 100s of tries to figure out how to make an axe, you should probably just stop playing games now, because you're bad at them.
From the look of the jeweler components (Tin/bronze/copper/silver filigree/chain/band/hook/setting), most of the jewelry should be pretty easy. to make. I'll give you one right here! Copper band + copper setting + emerald.
I bet that'll make something.
All the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components. I wasn't trying to prove that it'll be impossible to craft (It should be fairly easy to get the basic stuff, from the looks of it), I was trying to prove that it would be a daunting task (To say the least) to categorize ALL the possible combinations, and it's going to be some crazy off brand combo (tin setting + bronze hook + feather + ruby ) that ends up being the rare stuff a person could theoretically corner the market on until it makes its eventual way to wiki.
Where does it say you AUTOMATICLY learn things like axe blade and axe hilt? Because in the article I think you got it from I read you HAVE to discover them. Now admitly if all you need to do is put some metal ingots or wood planks in the crafting pannel to make then thats not going to be hard. And yes if you have an axe handle and a axe head its obvious that if you put the two together that you will get an axe. So simple items are simple to make I never said otherwise. But what happends when you get to the high lvl more complex items, even if its "only" 29,000 combinations thats still going to take a LOT longer to try than to make than the 100 or so items to lvl in other crafting systems. And this is just for ONE recipe.
IF as you say "all the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components" Then it will all be on the wiki before the game even goes live. Unless they change it between end of open beta and when the game goes LIVE which I very much doubt as they will have MUCH more important stuff to do. So why bother with this dsicovery system at all then. I mean whats the point ?
Ask and you shall recieve.
"As a character crafts items they will gain crafting experience. As they advance in their profession they will automatically learn new recipes for standard components. The player can then try to combine these standard components into other items to discover new recipes. For example, as a weaponsmith I automatically know the recipes for turning copper and tin ore into bronze ingots and for taking green wood logs and turning them into soft wood planks. If I place copper ingots in the crafting window while at an anvil I can make a copper axehead and similarly if I take the green wood planks to a workbench I can make an axe haft. I don't actually have a recipe for an axe but if I combine those two items then I will create a basic axe and the recipe will be stored in my recipe list. With further experimentation and by adding other ingredients I might be able to make a statistically better or different looking axe. "
The last question in the article is about crafting.
Hmmm I read that article how did I miss this. BTW you seen from the guru topic the number of combos if there just 36 resources is 201, 599, 390, 044, 900, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 possible combinations. That will take more than a few mins to try
I believe that is what is supposed to be fun, although I really doubt there is that many combinations. Those numbers are probably taking into account the numbers of every crafting profession and putting them together. You won't be mixing bronze filigree with a sword hilt.
thats just the resources it does'nt include the components or it would be even higher. Even if thier out by a factor of several trillion thats still a MASSIVE amount of combos.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
thats just the resources it does'nt include the components or it would be even higher. Even if thier out by a factor of several trillion thats still a MASSIVE amount of combos.
Yeah but you can probably take of a lot of them by default. For one thing is a glass vial or ink (rare GW1 components, might be back in GW2) is not very likely to be used in a axe head. It will still be a lot of course.
thats just the resources it does'nt include the components or it would be even higher. Even if thier out by a factor of several trillion thats still a MASSIVE amount of combos.
Yeah but you can probably take of a lot of them by default. For one thing is a glass vial or ink (rare GW1 components, might be back in GW2) is not very likely to be used in a axe head. It will still be a lot of course.
Don't you guys ever clean out old quotes BTW?
Ture you are not going to be useing a glass vial in a axe head but then you can use the same metal in more than one thing as well I would think. Do you really think that with 8 crafting skills there are only going to be 36 resources as that means only about 4 resources per skill. I think its more likey that there are probley double that number. Which means the number of combos is even more silly.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
My post has nothing to do with PvP and isn't specific to GW2, it is a trend in all new MMOs. The heavy instancing, shared XP for mobs when not grouped, no competition in the PQ/DE, cross server dungeons etc. This is a trend in all MMOs. Competition between players forces interaction in a way that helps build a stronger community. Playing a game like WoW you ignore 99% of the player base unless you are specifically grouped with them because the entire system is built so players never come in conflict. Games like EQ and UO had 10 times the community of these new MMOs.
As for PvP, your post shows you really don't understand what makes people enjoy world PvP so that wouldn't be worth discussing with you. You couldn't pay me to play Rift though, that is a soul-less rehash of WoW.
Oh yes because we all know that competition is the only way to have fun; that is why all of the Co-Op games that have ever been made have failed. Halo, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, Serious Sam, Borderlands, Gears of War, and Left 4 Dead were all boring and not fun because they featured Co-OP right? And oh My God some have Co-OP mixed with competition just like GW2 oh the horror, they are destroying gaming. What are we to do, MMO developers are learning people have fun in many ways and they are adapting. We are doomed, doomed I say. How can we have fun if the game is not 100% based on competition, MMOs will fail just like all the other games I have listed. After all who wants to play Left 4 dead with a friend, when they can be tea bagging some corpses on the internet? We are all doomed!
Also with the above let’s forget the fact that people are most happy when they are trying to achieve a goal. Now it is all about competition, there is no other form of happiness if you not beating someone else and calling them a loser, then you are not happy! /sarcasm off
Originally posted by Unicornicus
Originally posted by nomss
Originally posted by Unicornicus
The one thing I know that will inevitebley happen is griefers, running throughout the world shouting the end to personal stories with a macro over and over again, attempting to spoil the game for as many people as possible. I dont hink there is any way to check this type of behavior really.
I have not noticed this in other MMOs where people are trying to spoil the story.
Granted there is very little to destroy since there has ben very little story... with the personal stories and personal instances, I think its going to be quite a bit more elaborate than in past MMOs I think
I have not seen anyone running around LOTRO telling everyone how the next book ends. And since the books in LOTRO are equal to the personal story in GW2, and no one is doing it. Why do you just assume people will do this? If you can point to one instance where someone was doing this in LOTRO then I might believe you that it will be a problem in GW2. I have been playing LOTRO since launch and I have never witnessed this! So do you have any evidence that griefers will do this, after all they should be doing it in LOTRO if they are going to be doing it all the time in GW2.
Originally posted by ircaddicts
Ture you are not going to be useing a glass vial in a axe head but then you can use the same metal in more than one thing as well I would think. Do you really think that with 8 crafting skills there are only going to be 36 resources as that means only about 4 resources per skill. I think its more likey that there are probley double that number. Which means the number of combos is even more silly.
I got a question for you, you complain that the discovery system has too many options for people that enjoy crafting and want to discover the items and not look at the internet. And you also complain that the people looking at the net makes it so the people that enjoy crafting will not enjoy it. I have to ask why that will affect my game. I am going to craft and not look at the net while other people are going to use it to find recipes, how are they that going to ruin my fun of playing with the crafting system? What because I cannot create uber loot that everyone will want and envy before they do? Not all games have to be about loot; in fact GW1 was very much not about loot. And while they are adding more to GW2, it still is not going to be a loot centric game (in fact in a recent article, they have said you will not be able to craft better items then what you can get from other parts of the game). So why does it matter, when all the loot is going to be equal. If you have fun crafting then craft, if you do not then do not use it. This game will never be about loot, so why try to make it like every other MMO on the market, and make the game about loot, so you can craft the uber sword of awesomeness. Can’t there be one MMO out there, where loot is just part of the game and not the main focus?
Oh yes because we all know that competition is the only way to have fun;
Did my post say this in any way? A healthy mix of co-operative and competitive play is better for a game than absolutely no competition ever and I'm talking the PvE side of things here. I'm not suggesting the game have no co-operative side so what was the point of this comment? Conflict helps build community because it forces you to actually communicate with other players instead of just playing next to them.
Ture you are not going to be useing a glass vial in a axe head but then you can use the same metal in more than one thing as well I would think. Do you really think that with 8 crafting skills there are only going to be 36 resources as that means only about 4 resources per skill. I think its more likey that there are probley double that number. Which means the number of combos is even more silly.
I got a question for you, you complain that the discovery system has too many options for people that enjoy crafting and want to discover the items and not look at the internet. And you also complain that the people looking at the net makes it so the people that enjoy crafting will not enjoy it. I have to ask why that will affect my game. I am going to craft and not look at the net while other people are going to use it to find recipes, how are they that going to ruin my fun of playing with the crafting system? What because I cannot create uber loot that everyone will want and envy before they do? Not all games have to be about loot; in fact GW1 was very much not about loot. And while they are adding more to GW2, it still is not going to be a loot centric game (in fact in a recent article, they have said you will not be able to craft better items then what you can get from other parts of the game). So why does it matter, when all the loot is going to be equal. If you have fun crafting then craft, if you do not then do not use it. This game will never be about loot, so why try to make it like every other MMO on the market, and make the game about loot, so you can craft the uber sword of awesomeness. Can’t there be one MMO out there, where loot is just part of the game and not the main focus?
My problem with this discovery system is that it does NOT remove the grind as either the number of combos you have to try to find ONE recipe FAR FAR exceeds the number of items you need to make in other mmo's crafting system in order get to max lvl or thats it so simple it becomes pointless as all recipes will be known before the game even goes live. I like crafting to MAKE things for my self, my friends and my guild mates. Not to try upteen trillion different combos to find ONE recipe. I'm not asking for this to be a loot centric game or have any of the dreaded wow loot grind. IN FACT One of the MANY things I loved about GW was that there was NO loot grind. if I wanted a max weapon I could get one dead easy. I used a blue collectors wand for years on my ele as there was nothing better I could find.
I just want a FUN and worthwhile crafting system. I like the fact that there are many ways to get the best loot as there should be. The more ways the better as it keeps more people happy.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Oh yes because we all know that competition is the only way to have fun;
Did my post say this in any way? A healthy mix of co-operative and competitive play is better for a game than absolutely no competition ever and I'm talking the PvE side of things here. I'm not suggesting the game have no co-operative side so what was the point of this comment? Conflict helps build community because it forces you to actually communicate with other players instead of just playing next to them.
No actually it DOES NOT. Look at eve it has the WORST player community of all MMO's and thats all BECAUSE of conflict between the players. Anet have seen this and very wisely decided to have NO conflict between the players in PVE AT ALL. if you want to fight other players then go pvp or play eve.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Oh yes because we all know that competition is the only way to have fun;
Did my post say this in any way? A healthy mix of co-operative and competitive play is better for a game than absolutely no competition ever and I'm talking the PvE side of things here. I'm not suggesting the game have no co-operative side so what was the point of this comment? Conflict helps build community because it forces you to actually communicate with other players instead of just playing next to them.
OK then what is your point, GW2 is going to have both the Co-Op and the competitive. Dynamic Events and personal story are Co-Op; WvWvW and the 5 on 5 matches are competitive. So GW2 has both of them, just like all the single player Co-Op games I listed. In Gears of War you have the story which you can play Co-Op and the PVP which is competitive. In Halo you have the story which is Co-Op and then you have the PVP which is competitive. I think you get the idea or do I need to go on. All the games I listed are fun games that have both sides of the coin, just like GW2. So again I ask what’s the point of your post? Is it that the Co-Op and competitive are not mixed together, and you think that is bad? Well all of these games I have listed are not mixed together, and they are considered great games by millions.
Oh and here is another novel idea, if people want to talk to each other they will no matter what type of game they are playing. Weather it is Co-Op or competitive! I have played online with people in GRAW in Co-Op and we talked. I have also played online in PVP and we did not talk at all. So the saying that competitive play forces people to talk is completely and utterly false.
Originally posted by ircaddicts
My problem with this discovery system is that it does NOT remove the grind as either the number of combos you have to try to find ONE recipe FAR FAR exceeds the number of items you need to make in other mmo's crafting system in order get to max lvl or thats it so simple it becomes pointless as all recipes will be known before the game even goes live. I like crafting to MAKE things for my self, my friends and my guild mates. Not to try upteen trillion different combos to find ONE recipe. I'm not asking for this to be a loot centric game or have any of the dreaded wow loot grind. IN FACT One of the MANY things I loved about GW was that there was NO loot grind. if I wanted a max weapon I could get one dead easy. I used a blue collectors wand for years on my ele as there was nothing better I could find.
I just want a FUN and worthwhile crafting system. I like the fact that there are many ways to get the best loot as there should be. The more ways the better as it keeps more people happy.
I guess the problem I have with everything you said is it is just a theory. We do not know how the crafting is going to play out; you might be just creating problems that will never exist in the game. The fact is none of us know how the crafting is going to play out. I have hopes that the only really hard recipes are going to be the very unique looking items that you craft, kind of like the dungeon sets. Which makes sense, it should take some time to experiment to find those very unique sets, since it is going to cost time to get all of the armor from the dungeons? Otherwise the rest of the crafting items that you are going to use for leveling, are the equal to items you get from Karma vendor and loot drop. They should not take much time and thought to figure out. This to me would be fine; I am happy if the cooler things to make take people weeks to figure out and then they are put on the wiki. But neither one of us knows exactly how this going to play out.
Also how do you know that that info will be out before the game releases, so far Anet has not said how they are doing their betas? From how it sounds, it is going to be a very small group that will get to play this game before open beta. I have heard the developers say many times, that they want most people’s first view of the game to be after it launches and is completely polished. So like I said earlier you might just be creating problems that will never exist. We do not know how it is going to play out; having a discussion about the failings of a system we know nothing about is pointless. Yes we can discuss what we would like in a crafting system, and our likes and dislikes. But this discussion is not that, it is a discussion on what people view to be problems on a system they have not seen. That is like 2 blind men arguing over whether a statue is blue or not, in the end it does not matter neither one can see it. So until we see the crafting in action and people get to play it at conventions. Let’s stop creating problems that we do not even know exists yet!
Did my post say this in any way? A healthy mix of co-operative and competitive play is better for a game than absolutely no competition ever and I'm talking the PvE side of things here. I'm not suggesting the game have no co-operative side so what was the point of this comment? Conflict helps build community because it forces you to actually communicate with other players instead of just playing next to them.
Communication is good yes. But frankly is there rather little communication in the open world in other games, even when we do group there. It is often in many games I been invited to a group while out and questing and I have of course started to chat. In some cases do people answer something really short, in others they don't even bother to answer.
The most talk is usually during dungeons and GW2 will have those in groups anyways. So there will be co operative play. In fact most games today have very little group content at all in the open world, GW2 will at least have people with common goals.
As for conflict between people on the same side that usually means kill stealing or ninja looting and that usually just leads to people calling someone jackass in the OCC.
Modern MMOs have over the last few years gotten worse and worse communities. Something do need to be done to make the communities better again and this is at least worth a shot. If it doesn't work then fine, it was a mistake but it deserves to be given a chance.
Don't tell me about Wows great community because of how the game creates conflicts between the players.
We understand that this system of discovery can be circumvented by looking at the wiki but we treat this as we do any other spoiler information. For example the fact that a player could at anytime go spoil the end of their personal story by looking it up does not keep us from trying to create an exciting story that may have some twists in it. If a player wants to go find recipe knowledge then they are free to do so and they can skip over the part of crafting that they might find tedious, such as grinding through recipes to finally get to the one they want to make. For players who really enjoy the discovery style of play and take more time to explore the possibilities of the system then they can do that as well.
I've seen many players reacting to our announced system and lamenting the fact that it is not more complex or innovative. There are many different ways we could have taken this system and we have done what we feel is best to support the rest of our game. For example, some games feature a gathering system that consists of some sort of gathering mini game. We didn't think that was the right way for us to go given the other goals of our game. We want players in the open world to feel like they are cooperating, never resent other players, and be able to respond to the dynamic nature of the world around them. If players needed to stop for 30-40 seconds every time they came across a gathering node then soon the other players that are playing with them who might not be particularly interested in gathering might grow impatient and the overall pacing and flow of their game experience would be interrupted. This tends to be a source of player tension where you might hear statements like “is that guy going to mine again? We need to get over to the garrison!” When designing a feature it is always important for us to consider how that feature impacts every other part of the game and make the choices that enhance the play experience we are trying to foster.
The one thing I know that will inevitebley happen is griefers, running throughout the world shouting the end to personal stories with a macro over and over again, attempting to spoil the game for as many people as possible. I dont hink there is any way to check this type of behavior really.
I have not noticed this in other MMOs where people are trying to spoil the story.
What other MMOs have you played that had a totally separate personal story for every race/class/combination of personality choices/whatever ? I haven't heard of any other MMOs that shared this feature, so perhaps that's why you haven't seen people trying to ruin it?
My problem with this discovery system is that it does NOT remove the grind as either the number of combos you have to try to find ONE recipe FAR FAR exceeds the number of items you need to make in other mmo's crafting system in order get to max lvl or thats it so simple it becomes pointless as all recipes will be known before the game even goes live. I like crafting to MAKE things for my self, my friends and my guild mates. Not to try upteen trillion different combos to find ONE recipe. I'm not asking for this to be a loot centric game or have any of the dreaded wow loot grind. IN FACT One of the MANY things I loved about GW was that there was NO loot grind. if I wanted a max weapon I could get one dead easy. I used a blue collectors wand for years on my ele as there was nothing better I could find.
I just want a FUN and worthwhile crafting system. I like the fact that there are many ways to get the best loot as there should be. The more ways the better as it keeps more people happy.
I guess the problem I have with everything you said is it is just a theory. We do not know how the crafting is going to play out; you might be just creating problems that will never exist in the game. The fact is none of us know how the crafting is going to play out. I have hopes that the only really hard recipes are going to be the very unique looking items that you craft, kind of like the dungeon sets. Which makes sense, it should take some time to experiment to find those very unique sets, since it is going to cost time to get all of the armor from the dungeons? Otherwise the rest of the crafting items that you are going to use for leveling, are the equal to items you get from Karma vendor and loot drop. They should not take much time and thought to figure out. This to me would be fine; I am happy if the cooler things to make take people weeks to figure out and then they are put on the wiki. But neither one of us knows exactly how this going to play out.
Also how do you know that that info will be out before the game releases, so far Anet has not said how they are doing their betas? From how it sounds, it is going to be a very small group that will get to play this game before open beta. I have heard the developers say many times, that they want most people’s first view of the game to be after it launches and is completely polished. So like I said earlier you might just be creating problems that will never exist. We do not know how it is going to play out; having a discussion about the failings of a system we know nothing about is pointless. Yes we can discuss what we would like in a crafting system, and our likes and dislikes. But this discussion is not that, it is a discussion on what people view to be problems on a system they have not seen. That is like 2 blind men arguing over whether a statue is blue or not, in the end it does not matter neither one can see it. So until we see the crafting in action and people get to play it at conventions. Let’s stop creating problems that we do not even know exists yet!
I know it just a theory as we don't have all the info yet, and yes the problems I'm talking about may not exist in the final game . I hope they don't. BUT and its a BIG one HOW will they avoid them given the system they have in place? As given that system one of the possabilites I posted HAS to happen. It will either have so many combos it takes a LONG time to find anything or it so simple that in just the open beta people will find all but the most rare recipes.
Anet said there WILL be an open beta but it will be closer to release. I would imange it would start about a month or 2 before release and last 2 or 3 weeks. I'm sure that Anet's idea of beta and everyone elses is very different. As thier saying they have'nt even done an alpha yet. I've been playing and testing games for a LONG time and have yet to see a game look THIS good LIVE let alone in supposedly pre alpha.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Don't tell me about Wows great community because of how the game creates conflicts between the players.
WoW is an example of my point. You don't compete with players in WoW outside of arena and now rated battlegrounds but PvP is really a different topic complete. In PvE you never ever come into competition with another player in WoW, there is no reason to ever talk with anyone unless you are guilded with them or you happen to join a dungeon queue with them. This is the problem more than the rule.
In EQ you would be forced to work with other guilds to build a raid schedule, you would be forced to talk to other guilds groups to split up dungeon spawns etc. When you were in a dungeon and your group broke up you might invite people from that group you talked to to join you so you could keep camping mobs etc.
You actually got a reputation based on how good a job you did instead of joining some auto queue and just quitting and joining a new one if all your group mates sucked.
Things like instancing completely destroy communities, as long as they exist there is no hope for community to be strong. I have a picture of the future of MMO and it is a bunch of solo players playing side by side and never talking together because the game never forces them to interact. This is the same thing that is happening with auto groups in Rift for their PQs, it is the same thing that will happen to GW2 when you get shared XP/Karma for DE etc. It is a server of 2000 players each playing a solo game and rarely grouping up with anyone not in their own little 50 player guild.
WoW is an example of my point. You don't compete with players in WoW outside of arena and now rated battlegrounds but PvP is really a different topic complete. In PvE you never ever come into competition with another player in WoW, there is no reason to ever talk with anyone unless you are guilded with them or you happen to join a dungeon queue with them. This is the problem more than the rule.
In EQ you would be forced to work with other guilds to build a raid schedule, you would be forced to talk to other guilds groups to split up dungeon spawns etc. When you were in a dungeon and your group broke up you might invite people from that group you talked to to join you so you could keep camping mobs etc.
You actually got a reputation based on how good a job you did instead of joining some auto queue and just quitting and joining a new one if all your group mates sucked.
Things like instancing completely destroy communities, as long as they exist there is no hope for community to be strong. I have a picture of the future of MMO and it is a bunch of solo players playing side by side and never talking together because the game never forces them to interact. This is the same thing that is happening with auto groups in Rift for their PQs, it is the same thing that will happen to GW2 when you get shared XP/Karma for DE etc. It is a server of 2000 players each playing a solo game and rarely grouping up with anyone not in their own little 50 player guild.
Yawn~
Pops I think you're kind of lost here and accidentally made your way to the Guild Wars 2 forum and accidentally begun troll posting. So would you kindly click this link here and gtfo.
Nobody wants to hear about the good ol' days of the floppy disk & how fun it was to spend hours planning dungeon & raid schedules rather than tactics. We're all here looking forward to a game where we don't have to spend hours of grinding & pre-planning to have some fun. I wanna play a game where me and my friend can log in and start having fun right away and if we want to do a dungeon we'll do one with a PUG, without having to form and assemble 15 people to be able to do a 5-man dungeon safely.
WoW is an example of my point. You don't compete with players in WoW outside of arena and now rated battlegrounds but PvP is really a different topic complete. In PvE you never ever come into competition with another player in WoW, there is no reason to ever talk with anyone unless you are guilded with them or you happen to join a dungeon queue with them. This is the problem more than the rule.
In EQ you would be forced to work with other guilds to build a raid schedule, you would be forced to talk to other guilds groups to split up dungeon spawns etc. When you were in a dungeon and your group broke up you might invite people from that group you talked to to join you so you could keep camping mobs etc.
You actually got a reputation based on how good a job you did instead of joining some auto queue and just quitting and joining a new one if all your group mates sucked.
Things like instancing completely destroy communities, as long as they exist there is no hope for community to be strong. I have a picture of the future of MMO and it is a bunch of solo players playing side by side and never talking together because the game never forces them to interact. This is the same thing that is happening with auto groups in Rift for their PQs, it is the same thing that will happen to GW2 when you get shared XP/Karma for DE etc. It is a server of 2000 players each playing a solo game and rarely grouping up with anyone not in their own little 50 player guild.
OK, GW2 do have some instanced dungeons but a lot of the combat is actually in a open world and the events will be best played with several players, and communications always helps. A lot of the focus of GW2 is BTW Guild Vs Guild PvP, that is why it is called Guildwars and not dynamic worlds.
So while sologuilds will exists most of the guilds will be PvP focused and you don't solo PvP.
I agree that overuse of instances are bad for the community but ANET is actually going from a completely instanced game to a mostly open with instanced dungeons. If that isn't a step in the right direction I don't know what is.
And you also seems too think the entire game will be very easy, but this is Arenanet, most of my friends from other MMOs that tried the original GW quit after a few weeks when they reach the part slightly harder than really easy. It gets a lot harder later. Skills will matter to get groups and guilds later in the game, particularly for any PvP guild.
Some soloplayers that mind their own business and have a small casual guild is not something we will be rid off in any game now, and while Im not is sure how it was in EQ I do know that they existed already in Meridian 59 1996, 3 years before EQ. They also existed in Linegae (2001? or was it 2002?). It is nothing new, just ignore them. At least here they might be somewhat useful.
Oh yes because we all know that competition is the only way to have fun;
Did my post say this in any way? A healthy mix of co-operative and competitive play is better for a game than absolutely no competition ever and I'm talking the PvE side of things here. I'm not suggesting the game have no co-operative side so what was the point of this comment? Conflict helps build community because it forces you to actually communicate with other players instead of just playing next to them.
Competing against other players belongs in PVP only. A portion of the game I will avoid steadfastly.
The only communicating that would go on between players if players would be allowed to grief each other in PVE would be a long the lines of "you @#$%^&;*!!!"
Comments
My thoughts exactly..
The problem with complex and ambitious sub-systems is that they kinda impose themselves on the whole. It's like that proverbial gun on the wall that has to be fired at least once before the end of the play.
I guess there could concievably be a very complex in-depth crafting system within GW2 as it is but... if you make it too powerful in effect you basically force everyone to use it whether they like it or not. On the other hand if the results are too weak then so small a portion of players are going to utilize it that it would hardly merit the development cost and effort.
A good example of this type of game-design pitfall is the droids in SWTOR.. They are so crucial to the game that I'm 100% sure that EVERYONE will have a droid.. thus negating their uniqueness and a sense of being special and ultimately rendering them not only useless (everyone has one) but actively detrimental to the game (OH NO! EVERYBODY HAS ONE!)
My post has nothing to do with PvP and isn't specific to GW2, it is a trend in all new MMOs. The heavy instancing, shared XP for mobs when not grouped, no competition in the PQ/DE, cross server dungeons etc. This is a trend in all MMOs. Competition between players forces interaction in a way that helps build a stronger community. Playing a game like WoW you ignore 99% of the player base unless you are specifically grouped with them because the entire system is built so players never come in conflict. Games like EQ and UO had 10 times the community of these new MMOs.
As for PvP, your post shows you really don't understand what makes people enjoy world PvP so that wouldn't be worth discussing with you. You couldn't pay me to play Rift though, that is a soul-less rehash of WoW.
The GW1 pvp system was very well done and could of just been ported stright to GW2 with very little effort. So WHY waste so much time and effort on something that no more that 25% of the player base at most uses and thats works so well all ready when they could of spent it something that a lot more people like and was'nt so well made IE Crafting. Like i said before they have'nt removed the grind at all they just moved it from the crafting side to the find the recipe side
I'm guessing the Meowhead from GW2guru is the same one on here and this is from his post on there.There are a "COMPLETELY ridiculous total of 18,974,736 possibilities to check. All in a single crafting job." So in "normal" crafting systems you have to make 100's of useless items how ever in THIS one you have to go though 000's or more likely 10,000's of useless perumtations of mats to find ONE recipe. Thats WAY worse that wow. I've never really bothed about how the item looks and I much more intrested in the stats and if those make my toon better. if I had the choice between a silly looking hat that gave me +20 to a stat I use vs a "nice" looking one that gave me +15 I would take the silly one every time
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Nah, that was me busy doing bad math! Using the same figure of 66 crafting materials (The crafting materials in GW1 + The crafting materials in a single screenshot of the jewelry class), you are just short of 290,000 possibilities. That's way more sane of a number, not in the millions at all!
Actually, if you ONLY go with the crafting materials shown in the screenshot, and magically assume there is also gold jewelry, you end up with a mere 29,000 possibilities for jewelers. Why, that's just a few bored minutes of your time, I'm sure.
It's also worth noting that you automatically learn things like 'axe hilt' and 'axe blade' as you level up your profession. If it takes you 100s of tries to figure out how to make an axe, you should probably just stop playing games now, because you're bad at them.
From the look of the jeweler components (Tin/bronze/copper/silver filigree/chain/band/hook/setting), most of the jewelry should be pretty easy. to make. I'll give you one right here! Copper band + copper setting + emerald.
I bet that'll make something.
All the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components. I wasn't trying to prove that it'll be impossible to craft (It should be fairly easy to get the basic stuff, from the looks of it), I was trying to prove that it would be a daunting task (To say the least) to categorize ALL the possible combinations, and it's going to be some crazy off brand combo (tin setting + bronze hook + feather + ruby ) that ends up being the rare stuff a person could theoretically corner the market on until it makes its eventual way to wiki.
Where does it say you AUTOMATICLY learn things like axe blade and axe hilt? Because in the article I think you got it from I read you HAVE to discover them. Now admitly if all you need to do is put some metal ingots or wood planks in the crafting pannel to make then thats not going to be hard. And yes if you have an axe handle and a axe head its obvious that if you put the two together that you will get an axe. So simple items are simple to make I never said otherwise. But what happends when you get to the high lvl more complex items, even if its "only" 29,000 combinations thats still going to take a LOT longer to try than to make than the 100 or so items to lvl in other crafting systems. And this is just for ONE recipe.
IF as you say "all the obvious, useful, normal stuff will be... well, obvious and easy to craft using the components" Then it will all be on the wiki before the game even goes live. Unless they change it between end of open beta and when the game goes LIVE which I very much doubt as they will have MUCH more important stuff to do. So why bother with this discovery system at all then. I mean whats the point ?
edited a typo
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Ask and you shall recieve.
"As a character crafts items they will gain crafting experience. As they advance in their profession they will automatically learn new recipes for standard components. The player can then try to combine these standard components into other items to discover new recipes. For example, as a weaponsmith I automatically know the recipes for turning copper and tin ore into bronze ingots and for taking green wood logs and turning them into soft wood planks. If I place copper ingots in the crafting window while at an anvil I can make a copper axehead and similarly if I take the green wood planks to a workbench I can make an axe haft. I don't actually have a recipe for an axe but if I combine those two items then I will create a basic axe and the recipe will be stored in my recipe list. With further experimentation and by adding other ingredients I might be able to make a statistically better or different looking axe. "
http://games.on.net/article/11863/Exclusive_Eric_Flannum_On_GW2_-_Thieves_Crafting_and_a_new_Video
The last question in the article is about crafting.
Granted there is very little to destroy since there has ben very little story... with the personal stories and personal instances, I think its going to be quite a bit more elaborate than in past MMOs I think
Hmmm I read that article how did I miss this. BTW you seen from the guru topic the number of combos if there just 36 resources is 201, 599, 390, 044, 900, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 possible combinations. That will take more than a few mins to try
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
I believe that is what is supposed to be fun, although I really doubt there is that many combinations. Those numbers are probably taking into account the numbers of every crafting profession and putting them together. You won't be mixing bronze filigree with a sword hilt.
thats just the resources it does'nt include the components or it would be even higher. Even if thier out by a factor of several trillion thats still a MASSIVE amount of combos.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Yeah but you can probably take of a lot of them by default. For one thing is a glass vial or ink (rare GW1 components, might be back in GW2) is not very likely to be used in a axe head. It will still be a lot of course.
Don't you guys ever clean out old quotes BTW?
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Ture you are not going to be useing a glass vial in a axe head but then you can use the same metal in more than one thing as well I would think. Do you really think that with 8 crafting skills there are only going to be 36 resources as that means only about 4 resources per skill. I think its more likey that there are probley double that number. Which means the number of combos is even more silly.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
Oh yes because we all know that competition is the only way to have fun; that is why all of the Co-Op games that have ever been made have failed. Halo, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, Serious Sam, Borderlands, Gears of War, and Left 4 Dead were all boring and not fun because they featured Co-OP right? And oh My God some have Co-OP mixed with competition just like GW2 oh the horror, they are destroying gaming. What are we to do, MMO developers are learning people have fun in many ways and they are adapting. We are doomed, doomed I say. How can we have fun if the game is not 100% based on competition, MMOs will fail just like all the other games I have listed. After all who wants to play Left 4 dead with a friend, when they can be tea bagging some corpses on the internet? We are all doomed!
Also with the above let’s forget the fact that people are most happy when they are trying to achieve a goal. Now it is all about competition, there is no other form of happiness if you not beating someone else and calling them a loser, then you are not happy!
I have not seen anyone running around LOTRO telling everyone how the next book ends. And since the books in LOTRO are equal to the personal story in GW2, and no one is doing it. Why do you just assume people will do this? If you can point to one instance where someone was doing this in LOTRO then I might believe you that it will be a problem in GW2. I have been playing LOTRO since launch and I have never witnessed this! So do you have any evidence that griefers will do this, after all they should be doing it in LOTRO if they are going to be doing it all the time in GW2.
I got a question for you, you complain that the discovery system has too many options for people that enjoy crafting and want to discover the items and not look at the internet. And you also complain that the people looking at the net makes it so the people that enjoy crafting will not enjoy it. I have to ask why that will affect my game. I am going to craft and not look at the net while other people are going to use it to find recipes, how are they that going to ruin my fun of playing with the crafting system? What because I cannot create uber loot that everyone will want and envy before they do? Not all games have to be about loot; in fact GW1 was very much not about loot. And while they are adding more to GW2, it still is not going to be a loot centric game (in fact in a recent article, they have said you will not be able to craft better items then what you can get from other parts of the game). So why does it matter, when all the loot is going to be equal. If you have fun crafting then craft, if you do not then do not use it. This game will never be about loot, so why try to make it like every other MMO on the market, and make the game about loot, so you can craft the uber sword of awesomeness. Can’t there be one MMO out there, where loot is just part of the game and not the main focus?
Did my post say this in any way? A healthy mix of co-operative and competitive play is better for a game than absolutely no competition ever and I'm talking the PvE side of things here. I'm not suggesting the game have no co-operative side so what was the point of this comment? Conflict helps build community because it forces you to actually communicate with other players instead of just playing next to them.
My problem with this discovery system is that it does NOT remove the grind as either the number of combos you have to try to find ONE recipe FAR FAR exceeds the number of items you need to make in other mmo's crafting system in order get to max lvl or thats it so simple it becomes pointless as all recipes will be known before the game even goes live. I like crafting to MAKE things for my self, my friends and my guild mates. Not to try upteen trillion different combos to find ONE recipe. I'm not asking for this to be a loot centric game or have any of the dreaded wow loot grind. IN FACT One of the MANY things I loved about GW was that there was NO loot grind. if I wanted a max weapon I could get one dead easy. I used a blue collectors wand for years on my ele as there was nothing better I could find.
I just want a FUN and worthwhile crafting system. I like the fact that there are many ways to get the best loot as there should be. The more ways the better as it keeps more people happy.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
No actually it DOES NOT. Look at eve it has the WORST player community of all MMO's and thats all BECAUSE of conflict between the players. Anet have seen this and very wisely decided to have NO conflict between the players in PVE AT ALL. if you want to fight other players then go pvp or play eve.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
OK then what is your point, GW2 is going to have both the Co-Op and the competitive. Dynamic Events and personal story are Co-Op; WvWvW and the 5 on 5 matches are competitive. So GW2 has both of them, just like all the single player Co-Op games I listed. In Gears of War you have the story which you can play Co-Op and the PVP which is competitive. In Halo you have the story which is Co-Op and then you have the PVP which is competitive. I think you get the idea or do I need to go on. All the games I listed are fun games that have both sides of the coin, just like GW2. So again I ask what’s the point of your post? Is it that the Co-Op and competitive are not mixed together, and you think that is bad? Well all of these games I have listed are not mixed together, and they are considered great games by millions.
Oh and here is another novel idea, if people want to talk to each other they will no matter what type of game they are playing. Weather it is Co-Op or competitive! I have played online with people in GRAW in Co-Op and we talked. I have also played online in PVP and we did not talk at all. So the saying that competitive play forces people to talk is completely and utterly false.
I guess the problem I have with everything you said is it is just a theory. We do not know how the crafting is going to play out; you might be just creating problems that will never exist in the game. The fact is none of us know how the crafting is going to play out. I have hopes that the only really hard recipes are going to be the very unique looking items that you craft, kind of like the dungeon sets. Which makes sense, it should take some time to experiment to find those very unique sets, since it is going to cost time to get all of the armor from the dungeons? Otherwise the rest of the crafting items that you are going to use for leveling, are the equal to items you get from Karma vendor and loot drop. They should not take much time and thought to figure out. This to me would be fine; I am happy if the cooler things to make take people weeks to figure out and then they are put on the wiki. But neither one of us knows exactly how this going to play out.
Also how do you know that that info will be out before the game releases, so far Anet has not said how they are doing their betas? From how it sounds, it is going to be a very small group that will get to play this game before open beta. I have heard the developers say many times, that they want most people’s first view of the game to be after it launches and is completely polished. So like I said earlier you might just be creating problems that will never exist. We do not know how it is going to play out; having a discussion about the failings of a system we know nothing about is pointless. Yes we can discuss what we would like in a crafting system, and our likes and dislikes. But this discussion is not that, it is a discussion on what people view to be problems on a system they have not seen. That is like 2 blind men arguing over whether a statue is blue or not, in the end it does not matter neither one can see it. So until we see the crafting in action and people get to play it at conventions. Let’s stop creating problems that we do not even know exists yet!
Communication is good yes. But frankly is there rather little communication in the open world in other games, even when we do group there. It is often in many games I been invited to a group while out and questing and I have of course started to chat. In some cases do people answer something really short, in others they don't even bother to answer.
The most talk is usually during dungeons and GW2 will have those in groups anyways. So there will be co operative play. In fact most games today have very little group content at all in the open world, GW2 will at least have people with common goals.
As for conflict between people on the same side that usually means kill stealing or ninja looting and that usually just leads to people calling someone jackass in the OCC.
Modern MMOs have over the last few years gotten worse and worse communities. Something do need to be done to make the communities better again and this is at least worth a shot. If it doesn't work then fine, it was a mistake but it deserves to be given a chance.
Don't tell me about Wows great community because of how the game creates conflicts between the players.
What other MMOs have you played that had a totally separate personal story for every race/class/combination of personality choices/whatever ? I haven't heard of any other MMOs that shared this feature, so perhaps that's why you haven't seen people trying to ruin it?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I know it just a theory as we don't have all the info yet, and yes the problems I'm talking about may not exist in the final game . I hope they don't. BUT and its a BIG one HOW will they avoid them given the system they have in place? As given that system one of the possabilites I posted HAS to happen. It will either have so many combos it takes a LONG time to find anything or it so simple that in just the open beta people will find all but the most rare recipes.
Anet said there WILL be an open beta but it will be closer to release. I would imange it would start about a month or 2 before release and last 2 or 3 weeks. I'm sure that Anet's idea of beta and everyone elses is very different. As thier saying they have'nt even done an alpha yet. I've been playing and testing games for a LONG time and have yet to see a game look THIS good LIVE let alone in supposedly pre alpha.
Top 3 MMO's PRE-CU SWG GW1 GW2
Worst 2 wow and Lotro Under standing stones it went woke
WoW is an example of my point. You don't compete with players in WoW outside of arena and now rated battlegrounds but PvP is really a different topic complete. In PvE you never ever come into competition with another player in WoW, there is no reason to ever talk with anyone unless you are guilded with them or you happen to join a dungeon queue with them. This is the problem more than the rule.
In EQ you would be forced to work with other guilds to build a raid schedule, you would be forced to talk to other guilds groups to split up dungeon spawns etc. When you were in a dungeon and your group broke up you might invite people from that group you talked to to join you so you could keep camping mobs etc.
You actually got a reputation based on how good a job you did instead of joining some auto queue and just quitting and joining a new one if all your group mates sucked.
Things like instancing completely destroy communities, as long as they exist there is no hope for community to be strong. I have a picture of the future of MMO and it is a bunch of solo players playing side by side and never talking together because the game never forces them to interact. This is the same thing that is happening with auto groups in Rift for their PQs, it is the same thing that will happen to GW2 when you get shared XP/Karma for DE etc. It is a server of 2000 players each playing a solo game and rarely grouping up with anyone not in their own little 50 player guild.
Yawn~
Pops I think you're kind of lost here and accidentally made your way to the Guild Wars 2 forum and accidentally begun troll posting. So would you kindly click this link here and gtfo.
Nobody wants to hear about the good ol' days of the floppy disk & how fun it was to spend hours planning dungeon & raid schedules rather than tactics. We're all here looking forward to a game where we don't have to spend hours of grinding & pre-planning to have some fun. I wanna play a game where me and my friend can log in and start having fun right away and if we want to do a dungeon we'll do one with a PUG, without having to form and assemble 15 people to be able to do a 5-man dungeon safely.
OK, GW2 do have some instanced dungeons but a lot of the combat is actually in a open world and the events will be best played with several players, and communications always helps. A lot of the focus of GW2 is BTW Guild Vs Guild PvP, that is why it is called Guildwars and not dynamic worlds.
So while sologuilds will exists most of the guilds will be PvP focused and you don't solo PvP.
I agree that overuse of instances are bad for the community but ANET is actually going from a completely instanced game to a mostly open with instanced dungeons. If that isn't a step in the right direction I don't know what is.
And you also seems too think the entire game will be very easy, but this is Arenanet, most of my friends from other MMOs that tried the original GW quit after a few weeks when they reach the part slightly harder than really easy. It gets a lot harder later. Skills will matter to get groups and guilds later in the game, particularly for any PvP guild.
Some soloplayers that mind their own business and have a small casual guild is not something we will be rid off in any game now, and while Im not is sure how it was in EQ I do know that they existed already in Meridian 59 1996, 3 years before EQ. They also existed in Linegae (2001? or was it 2002?). It is nothing new, just ignore them. At least here they might be somewhat useful.
Competing against other players belongs in PVP only. A portion of the game I will avoid steadfastly.
The only communicating that would go on between players if players would be allowed to grief each other in PVE would be a long the lines of "you @#$%^&;*!!!"