It seems that a lot of players are being interested, in Guild Wars 2, but that they don't understand the priority that ArenaNet are trying to make. I'm not a developer, nor do I have any insider knowledge, but I have read almost every interview of the last couple of years, and after a while of following a game so closely, you begin to see a pattern(the voices in my head, says so)!
The most important thing for ArenaNet with this game, besides obviously making it fun to play, is to make sure there is no griefing or frustration. They are designing this game, so that a player can not harm any other player or do any harm, no matter what.
Can Gold Farmers still do this if everything spawns around the map? And if you can be sidekicked to any level in the world, is there a point to levelling?
Everything is secondary.
What that means is practice is that if you want, you can get power levelled to level 80 by hitting a mob, and having high level friends finishing it off, or just hitting every mob that other people are fighting to also get that XP. ArenaNet does not care. Their philosophy is that if people will want to get to the end game ASAP so be it.
This is why loot stealing is impossible. You can't camp either or afk steal, because the mobs spawn and move across the maps. They intend to kill all sorts of griefing. It means that if you are level 5, you can be sidekicked to level 80 by a level 80 friend. And likewise a level 80 friend can be sidekicked down to level 5.
In PvP everyone gets buffed to be equal in strength. It turns into Call of Duty. But it's to avoid one-shotting.
They intend to kill all frustrations that is possible within the realm of the games. Blizzard would never allow a level 5 to go to Northrend and play with his friends. ArenaNet has choosen that playing with friends and not having people able to be able to annoy you, to take priority over anything else.
Some people will hate it. They absolutely will. But it's clear that ArenaNet are trying to capture those people who also don't like MMORPGs. Those people who get bored or frustrated with WoW/LOTRO before level 10, which is a significant amount as we already know.
It tells us why we can't have World PvP, why the dynamic events work as they do, and the crafting is so "easy" as it is. If your level 335 in armorcrafting skill, you can drop the skill, and instantly become a level 335 chef.
They are killing grind, griefing, and the player barrier. Everyone can heal and revive each other, even casters have a few tanking abillities.
There is not going to be a single quest in Guild Wars 2. Not even one.
TL;DR let me ask you guys - Do you think choosing to design this game, will come at a cost? What could this mean in negative terms? And what about us who have played MMOs for a long time and know the genre. Will we see it as dumped down? Does it annoy you with all this carebear focus or do you think it's a good thing? Are they actually taking responsibility for not wanting to have players to accept "Lesser evils" or are they destroying some of the things that made this genre good to begin with?
Its SIMPLE realy, IF you dont like what your READING or HEARING about the game,, DONT PLAY IT. But pls, do us all a favor and dont try to change the minds of the ones that DO want to play it ..
I think their ideas in PvE are going to lead to a lack of community more than anything. Watching one of the PAX east videos they kept going on and on about how you don't even have to talk to anyone to play with them and that this would somehow form a good community but it really makes no sense to me. If it is a bunch of solo players standing next to each other not talking you don't really have a community, you have a single player RPG with smarter NPCs.
There's a simple solution to it.
Talk to everybody.
The people who respond back, and aren't idiots, add to your friend list. Group with them more often. Problem solved.
It wasn't a very big problem, so I won't charge you, but that's what I do in all games, and it works pretty well for me. If people don't want to talk to you, ever, maybe it's just you then.
You have to remember that Pax East is offering demos. You're not going to stand around all day trying to get a turn, and then use your half hour chatting with someone who you're probably never going to see again.
This was the alienware demo and part of the catch was that they were experienced players showing you more of the reality of gaming and not just demo play. Also I have seen this exact same thing in so many games that it is one of the greater fears I have in general. If players don't have to interact they generally don't interact and if they aren't interacting there is no community. This is part of why games like WoW have such a joke of a community.
We won't know until release how things will work out but in a game that looks pretty solid top to bottom this is one of my more specific fears is that all these 'carebear' development choices are going to hurt the game more than help it. Carebear isn't probably the correct choice in words since it instantly makes people think of PvP but I get what he is saying.
You have to remember that Pax East is offering demos. You're not going to stand around all day trying to get a turn, and then use your half hour chatting with someone who you're probably never going to see again.
This was the alienware demo and part of the catch was that they were experienced players showing you more of the reality of gaming and not just demo play. Also I have seen this exact same thing in so many games that it is one of the greater fears I have in general. If players don't have to interact they generally don't interact and if they aren't interacting there is no community. This is part of why games like WoW have such a joke of a community.
We won't know until release how things will work out but in a game that looks pretty solid top to bottom this is one of my more specific fears is that all these 'carebear' development choices are going to hurt the game more than help it. Carebear isn't probably the correct choice in words since it instantly makes people think of PvP but I get what he is saying.
Nah, you shouldn't worry to much about it. It's similar to champion spawns in UO. Or besieged and campaigns in FFXI.
You seem to be taking an experience in WoW and trying to apply it to something totaly different, why I don't know but I will try to explain why it's different.
Massive battles or events like this that do not require you to be part of a group prior to initiating the battle or event help grow the community. Your throwing strangers together in a situation where they must rely on the others around them even if they do not know them from a hole in a wall. Fighting like this encourages people to get to know others outside of there clan/guild/tight knit group of friends/etc.
Your fear that the community will be worse due to the very desings that will help build up a community akin to UO or FFXI and keep it from devolving into those you find in DFO, WoW, etc.. is a bit unfounded.
WoW and most other MMO's really have players focusing on their small group of people they know, they party mainly with these people only, raid with them, PvP with them, farm with them, etc. while a setup like GW2 is something that puts people in a position to get to know others and build bonds.
I think the reason for your view stems from the fact that you are under the impression that players working together durring a dynamic event without having to shout lfg for an hour or so or join a guild/clan means they aren't interacting with each other. If that is the case, again what GW2 has in place actually promotes the opposite. It forces players to interact with others they may normally not interact with. You can't choose to exclude anyone from these dynamic events and no one can exclude you. You don't need to gather together the perfect party setup and such just to take part. You hop in and get in where you fit in. When that random stranger you were fighting side by side with resurects you saving you missed rewards and or a bit of travel you will understand what kind of interaction this type of setup instigates.
Since similar events (Besieged and Campaign for FFXI, Champion spawns and dev and player run events in UO) spawned fairly nice communities in UO and FFXI, I'm not sure why anyone would say well since it's being done better than it has in the past the community will be non existent.
I think the reason for your view stems from the fact that you are under the impression that players working together durring a dynamic event without having to shout lfg for an hour or so or join a guild/clan means they aren't interacting with each other
I think we just disagree. Players that I get forced into a group with for a PQ or a Rift etc are players I forget 5 minutes later. There is no meaningful interaction and no building of community. These choices by the devs hurt community, they don't expand community. I personally think GW2 will be one of the weaker games community wise for PvE that has ever been released, all of their choices are going to hurt community and not help it. On the PvP side they might capture community but I see nothing in the PvE that will promote it. One of the games weaknesses will be lack of community, not one of the strengths.
I think the reason for your view stems from the fact that you are under the impression that players working together durring a dynamic event without having to shout lfg for an hour or so or join a guild/clan means they aren't interacting with each other
I think we just disagree. Players that I get forced into a group with for a PQ or a Rift etc are players I forget 5 minutes later. There is no meaningful interaction and no building of community. These choices by the devs hurt community, they don't expand community. I personally think GW2 will be one of the weaker games community wise for PvE that has ever been released, all of their choices are going to hurt community and not help it. On the PvP side they might capture community but I see nothing in the PvE that will promote it. One of the games weaknesses will be lack of community, not one of the strengths.
The difference between a PQ or Rift and Event is that the events chain. With a Rift, it is a one time thing, you kill it, then you continue on to whatever it is you were planning to do before you stumbled across it. With an event, you spend the 5 minutes with that person, then you spend another 5, then another 5. Then when it's over, what are you both going to do? You're going to look for another event chain, why not continue together if the person seems like they're ok? Or why not have all five or ten people doing the chain continue on.
Going back to your earlier post, I think the reason WoW has a joke of a community, as you say, is because people are just jaded. How many times have you fought your way to a node just to have someone steal it? How many times can you and someone else run up to an escort quest, and you start typing "want to group" and they start it without you, before you finally decide you're going to start being the one screwing people over instead?
I think competition can force interaction like you say, and I think there have been examples where a great server community results. Like those EQ servers where they set up a serverwide rotation list to get everybody their epic weapons. But for every 1 server where something like that happens, I bet there's 10 where it's just might makes right, we're going to do what we want because we're a bigger guild than you. There's people I used to group with every single day in EQ, I can't remember what their toon's names were. But I can certainly remember the name of the first person who ever killstole a mob from me.
You might not be seeing anything on the PVE side that is encouraging community, but what you're also not seeing are all the barriers that prevent community. The soloable quests, the traditional structure with quest chains and not being able to group unless you're on the same stage, the fighting over spawns or ground items, the emphasis on the endgame that makes people want to just get through the content as fast as possible, the not being able to group with someone unless they're the same level as you, the halving of experience, the sharing loot. Take away all these things, and you take away what makes people just want to be left alone.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I think the reason for your view stems from the fact that you are under the impression that players working together durring a dynamic event without having to shout lfg for an hour or so or join a guild/clan means they aren't interacting with each other
I think we just disagree. Players that I get forced into a group with for a PQ or a Rift etc are players I forget 5 minutes later. There is no meaningful interaction and no building of community. These choices by the devs hurt community, they don't expand community. I personally think GW2 will be one of the weaker games community wise for PvE that has ever been released, all of their choices are going to hurt community and not help it. On the PvP side they might capture community but I see nothing in the PvE that will promote it. One of the games weaknesses will be lack of community, not one of the strengths.
The difference between a PQ or Rift and Event is that the events chain. With a Rift, it is a one time thing, you kill it, then you continue on to whatever it is you were planning to do before you stumbled across it. With an event, you spend the 5 minutes with that person, then you spend another 5, then another 5. Then when it's over, what are you both going to do? You're going to look for another event chain, why not continue together if the person seems like they're ok? Or why not have all five or ten people doing the chain continue on.
Going back to your earlier post, I think the reason WoW has a joke of a community, as you say, is because people are just jaded. How many times have you fought your way to a node just to have someone steal it? How many times can you and someone else run up to an escort quest, and you start typing "want to group" and they start it without you, before you finally decide you're going to start being the one screwing people over instead?
I think competition can force interaction like you say, and I think there have been examples where a great server community results. Like those EQ servers where they set up a serverwide rotation list to get everybody their epic weapons. But for every 1 server where something like that happens, I bet there's 10 where it's just might makes right, we're going to do what we want because we're a bigger guild than you. There's people I used to group with every single day in EQ, I can't remember what their toon's names were. But I can certainly remember the name of the first person who ever killstole a mob from me.
You might not be seeing anything on the PVE side that is encouraging community, but what you're also not seeing are all the barriers that prevent community. The soloable quests, the traditional structure with quest chains and not being able to group unless you're on the same stage, the fighting over spawns or ground items, the emphasis on the endgame that makes people want to just get through the content as fast as possible, the not being able to group with someone unless they're the same level as you, the halving of experience, the sharing loot. Take away all these things, and you take away what makes people just want to be left alone.
I think you both bring up interesting points, but I am also inclined to agree with Cali.
GW2 is actually trying something that we really haven't seen in a mmo before. Well we have, but there is a new spin on it. My first MMO was Asheron's Call 1, which was a highly soloable mmo. When I started to play DAoC, the new experience of forced grouping was completely new to me. I remember traveling to places which were excellent hunting grounds for my level, and then looking for a group. I met a lot of nice people and made a ton of friends in that system. However, the limitations set in place also made me feel jaded. As my Nightshade got closer to 50, I had a harder time finding groups that were accepting Nightshades. The general consesus of the community on my server was that Nightshades didn't bring much to a group, so they quit picking them up for grouping. Regardless of whether that was true or not, my enjoyment of the game was more or less dictated by the masses, because they could decide whether to group with me or not. The other half of that was groups competing for spawn camps to grind on, and at times the competition was steep. You really didn't want to see another group in an area where you wanted to hunt. If the game played out like GW2, not only would I have been able to just run around and play my Nightshade, there also wouldn't have been much of a reason for other people to reject me from groups based solely on class choice.
The competition amongst players is something that has been heavily promoted by the design of mmos, especially on the PvE side of the game. If you chose to play on a PvE server, you could also be griefed by others (such as people taking resource nodes that you just spent the past minute or so fighting to get to), and there was basically nothing you could do about it. MMOs over the past decade, I would argue, have become less social and groups tend to become more xenophobic.
ANet is trying desperately to bring back the spirit of cooperation with their systems in GW2. Nearly every part of the game they have described is being designed to foster community relations among those around you. Even the W v W v W pvp system is being designed with server community cooperation in mind. Servers with excellent community leadership that can get various people together will find a ton of success within the Mists. Which is a nice nod to the DAoC pvp endgame of the early days of DAoC.
I feel that once people begin to break from the xenophobic mindset that previous mmos have created, we will see communities flourish. The removal of compeition throughout the majority of the PvE game can only work to create positive community experiences. My only fear is that many people won't be able to change their mindset.
OP: I am so happy to be a care bear! I have no time to waste in my busy life for some 8 year old (or adult equivalent) to PK me, steal my drop, loot my corpse, and brag about having my ear on his belt. If I wanted to have that type of experience I would stop at convenience stores at night in really bad parts of town asking if anyone can change $100 bill. I want fun. I want equivalency. I want to see skilled players playing beside me.
Now as far as what the devs are doing and why, I have posted this link before.
These are businesses, when 88% of any community is, or will become casual, whether through inclination or through burnout, then guess what kind of game the majority will build? Yep, carebear cities. Woohoo for us! You want dark, backstabbing, sandbox PvP? Then good luck finding one. They are not popular, don't make as much money, and are few and far between. I suggest you find one though, because it's probable that this game will not be for you.
I feel that once people begin to break from the xenophobic mindset that previous mmos have created, we will see communities flourish. The removal of compeition throughout the majority of the PvE game can only work to create positive community experiences. My only fear is that many people won't be able to change their mindset.
I think we'll have to just agree to disagree until we see how it all plays out because there isn't really a way to know for sure.
I think instead of community this is going to create co-gaming, where you work with people because you need them but since the system doesn't require interaction you have no emotional investment thus no community really forming. They literally will feel like the NPCs in GW1 and you won't even bother learning their names.
You'll likely still have small guild sized communities and that is who you will mostly group with but when you need more muscle some random stranger will provide it and people won't even talk to each other in these situations.
None of this will make GW2 a bad game or anything, just something I'm concerned about.
I think we'll have to just agree to disagree until we see how it all plays out because there isn't really a way to know for sure.
I think instead of community this is going to create co-gaming, where you work with people because you need them but since the system doesn't require interaction you have no emotional investment thus no community really forming. They literally will feel like the NPCs in GW1 and you won't even bother learning their names.
You'll likely still have small guild sized communities and that is who you will mostly group with but when you need more muscle some random stranger will provide it and people won't even talk to each other in these situations.
None of this will make GW2 a bad game or anything, just something I'm concerned about.
I'm amused that you're both talking and using words like 'you'. Hopefully you're using that in the generic sense.
Most of the people who are disagreeing with you, it's specifically because we're planning on NOT acting like you're describing. Yes, there will of course be people who are 'co-gaming' as you put it, but I find that these faceless people show up in almost every type of game.
Even when I played AC, AO and DAoC, there were plenty of faceless people. I just didn't bother to get to know them, because they didn't interest me. Maybe you've just forgotten all the faceless people you passed up, since you didn't bother to remember them, and you're only remembering the friends and rivals you've made?
I think we'll have to just agree to disagree until we see how it all plays out because there isn't really a way to know for sure.
I think instead of community this is going to create co-gaming, where you work with people because you need them but since the system doesn't require interaction you have no emotional investment thus no community really forming. They literally will feel like the NPCs in GW1 and you won't even bother learning their names.
You'll likely still have small guild sized communities and that is who you will mostly group with but when you need more muscle some random stranger will provide it and people won't even talk to each other in these situations.
None of this will make GW2 a bad game or anything, just something I'm concerned about.
Well, yeah.
People you see solo in other games will be as you put it "co gaming" instead.
But that is still more social than just soloing your own stuff, here they will at least have some interaction with other people.
A large percentage of all MMO players are soloplayers and do rarely if at all interact with other players. And they have been around for at least 6 years now, I am afraid we just will have to get used to them.
How often do you stop up in any game while doing soloquests and chat up people? Sure, sometimes we do them with out guilds and friends to speed things up but usually are people staying to themselves doing that.
It is in the dungeons you meet and interact with other players, and in the guildhall and at the market. You will still do that in GW2.
Maybe will this co gaming actually learn some solo players to interact with other players so they run some dungeons and get more social? Maybe not but I don't see how this will make things worse.
I think we'll have to just agree to disagree until we see how it all plays out because there isn't really a way to know for sure.
I think instead of community this is going to create co-gaming, where you work with people because you need them but since the system doesn't require interaction you have no emotional investment thus no community really forming. They literally will feel like the NPCs in GW1 and you won't even bother learning their names.
You'll likely still have small guild sized communities and that is who you will mostly group with but when you need more muscle some random stranger will provide it and people won't even talk to each other in these situations.
None of this will make GW2 a bad game or anything, just something I'm concerned about.
First of all, what do you really mean by "emotional investment". I didn't care about most of the people i played with, and it applies not only to battlegrounds/dungeons via pug of any description/dynamic event of any description.
Hell. I didnt really know nor care about half of the people i was with a guild (and trust me, I've been much of a talker)
It was always about (at very least in my case) that i become friends with poeple that i talked to and i found them to my liking.
Pursuing same goal that forces teaming up wouldn't create any emotional investment as such, thats my opinion.
Second of all, there are people like me, who due to real life issues, at the moment can't plan when they start to play and when they would finish. So it's not that Im not grouping because i don't want to, I'm not grouping because i don't know when i would have to stop, which in most cases ruins whole effort of the rest of the group.
So yes, I'm pretty excited about dynamic events and no dedicated roles for classes, because it may help people like me enjoy their time spend on MMO.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation
It seems to me that everyone is arguing over these dynamics events and their utter destruction on the community aspect of the mmo only because we do not have all of the information about all the different areas to play. Really there is no doubt that there will be guilds trying to become the largest, or most elite, or whatever. It's GUILD wars after all, they haven't forgot that. There is going to be alot of aspects that are specific to social grouping. Who cares if the solo players get to have their bit too. When I PvP, I want to be social, but when I PvE I usually just want to get absorbed doing my thing. I really think the dynamic events could be a great PvE aspect, I just wish we knew more about the PvP, GvG, and WvWvW so that we can keep perspective on what this game's roots really are.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
It seems to me that everyone is arguing over these dynamics events and their utter destruction on the community aspect of the mmo only because we do not have all of the information about all the different areas to play. Really there is no doubt that there will be guilds trying to become the largest, or most elite, or whatever. It's GUILD wars after all, they haven't forgot that. There is going to be alot of aspects that are specific to social grouping. Who cares if the solo players get to have their bit too. When I PvP, I want to be social, but when I PvE I usually just want to get absorbed doing my thing. I really think the dynamic events could be a great PvE aspect, I just wish we knew more about the PvP, GvG, and WvWvW so that we can keep perspective on what this game's roots really are.
I am getting the feeling they HAVE forgotten it. The only thing Guild Wars there is, is Guild Vs. Guild.
It seems to me that everyone is arguing over these dynamics events and their utter destruction on the community aspect of the mmo only because we do not have all of the information about all the different areas to play. Really there is no doubt that there will be guilds trying to become the largest, or most elite, or whatever. It's GUILD wars after all, they haven't forgot that. There is going to be alot of aspects that are specific to social grouping. Who cares if the solo players get to have their bit too. When I PvP, I want to be social, but when I PvE I usually just want to get absorbed doing my thing. I really think the dynamic events could be a great PvE aspect, I just wish we knew more about the PvP, GvG, and WvWvW so that we can keep perspective on what this game's roots really are.
I am getting the feeling they HAVE forgotten it. The only thing Guild Wars there is, is Guild Vs. Guild.
PvP will more than likely end up dictated by guilds. I mean who do you think are going to organise the players in thw different servers in WvW, and 5 vs 5 will likely be dominated by specialist guilds.
It seems to me that everyone is arguing over these dynamics events and their utter destruction on the community aspect of the mmo only because we do not have all of the information about all the different areas to play. Really there is no doubt that there will be guilds trying to become the largest, or most elite, or whatever. It's GUILD wars after all, they haven't forgot that. There is going to be alot of aspects that are specific to social grouping. Who cares if the solo players get to have their bit too. When I PvP, I want to be social, but when I PvE I usually just want to get absorbed doing my thing. I really think the dynamic events could be a great PvE aspect, I just wish we knew more about the PvP, GvG, and WvWvW so that we can keep perspective on what this game's roots really are.
I am getting the feeling they HAVE forgotten it. The only thing Guild Wars there is, is Guild Vs. Guild.
PvP will more than likely end up dictated by guilds. I mean who do you think are going to organise the players in thw different servers in WvW, and 5 vs 5 will likely be dominated by specialist guilds.
So the focus is only towards 5 vs 5? WvWvW will be hot joinable, I don't see how guilds will play a role in this.
It seems to me that everyone is arguing over these dynamics events and their utter destruction on the community aspect of the mmo only because we do not have all of the information about all the different areas to play. Really there is no doubt that there will be guilds trying to become the largest, or most elite, or whatever. It's GUILD wars after all, they haven't forgot that. There is going to be alot of aspects that are specific to social grouping. Who cares if the solo players get to have their bit too. When I PvP, I want to be social, but when I PvE I usually just want to get absorbed doing my thing. I really think the dynamic events could be a great PvE aspect, I just wish we knew more about the PvP, GvG, and WvWvW so that we can keep perspective on what this game's roots really are.
I am getting the feeling they HAVE forgotten it. The only thing Guild Wars there is, is Guild Vs. Guild.
PvP will more than likely end up dictated by guilds. I mean who do you think are going to organise the players in thw different servers in WvW, and 5 vs 5 will likely be dominated by specialist guilds.
So the focus is only towards 5 vs 5? WvWvW will be hot joinable, I don't see how guilds will play a role in this.
Here's a hint the more organised server is the most likely to win. Who do you think will be the most likely to organise a large group of players? Large guilds/alliances dominate in such areas largely due to the fact it's hot joinable as organisation is the most effective method to victory. A-Net have also already stated that guilds will own keeps in WvW.
It seems to me that everyone is arguing over these dynamics events and their utter destruction on the community aspect of the mmo only because we do not have all of the information about all the different areas to play. Really there is no doubt that there will be guilds trying to become the largest, or most elite, or whatever. It's GUILD wars after all, they haven't forgot that. There is going to be alot of aspects that are specific to social grouping. Who cares if the solo players get to have their bit too. When I PvP, I want to be social, but when I PvE I usually just want to get absorbed doing my thing. I really think the dynamic events could be a great PvE aspect, I just wish we knew more about the PvP, GvG, and WvWvW so that we can keep perspective on what this game's roots really are.
I am getting the feeling they HAVE forgotten it. The only thing Guild Wars there is, is Guild Vs. Guild.
PvP will more than likely end up dictated by guilds. I mean who do you think are going to organise the players in thw different servers in WvW, and 5 vs 5 will likely be dominated by specialist guilds.
So the focus is only towards 5 vs 5? WvWvW will be hot joinable, I don't see how guilds will play a role in this.
Here's a hint the more organised server is the most likely to win. Who do you think will be the most likely to organise a large group of players? Large guilds/alliances dominate in such areas largely due to the fact it's hot joinable as organisation is the most effective method to victory. A-Net have also already stated that guilds will own keeps in WvW.
I see your point. So 5v5 and WvW. Still I would think more content for Guild should be provided.
As for the PvP viability of this game, I actually expect it to be my E-sport solution. On top of that, my casual gankers/war based paradise in WvW combat.
I don't see the issue about having a separate PvE world. Why does anyone else?
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
As for the PvP viability of this game, I actually expect it to be my E-sport solution. On top of that, my casual gankers/war based paradise in WvW combat.
I don't see the issue about having a separate PvE world. Why does anyone else?
As for the PvP viability of this game, I actually expect it to be my E-sport solution. On top of that, my casual gankers/war based paradise in WvW combat.
I don't see the issue about having a separate PvE world. Why does anyone else?
What's an E-sport?
Basically the kind of PvP that is used in official tournaments.
As for the PvP viability of this game, I actually expect it to be my E-sport solution. On top of that, my casual gankers/war based paradise in WvW combat.
I don't see the issue about having a separate PvE world. Why does anyone else?
What's an E-sport?
Basically the kind of PvP that is used in official tournaments.
As for the PvP viability of this game, I actually expect it to be my E-sport solution. On top of that, my casual gankers/war based paradise in WvW combat.
I don't see the issue about having a separate PvE world. Why does anyone else?
Basically a form of competitive gameplay that is not only balanced, but fun to watch and examine. It is the geek form of a "jock". Now of course, some people will immediately lend this to a "oh so you mean jerks are going to play?"
I say no, it means that structured PvP will have a large degree of watchabiltiy and competitiveness... exactly what a structured and team based PvP game should be. The exact opposite to the "Care Bear" PvE world that I still plan on being an achievement hunter in, enjoying the constant struggle against the NPC hordes with my fellow GW2 players.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
Comments
Its SIMPLE realy, IF you dont like what your READING or HEARING about the game,, DONT PLAY IT. But pls, do us all a favor and dont try to change the minds of the ones that DO want to play it ..
There's a simple solution to it.
Talk to everybody.
The people who respond back, and aren't idiots, add to your friend list. Group with them more often. Problem solved.
It wasn't a very big problem, so I won't charge you, but that's what I do in all games, and it works pretty well for me. If people don't want to talk to you, ever, maybe it's just you then.
I love pretty much everything GW2 is doing, if other people dont like the changes to things then they are free to keep playing other MMO's.
i say it sounds very interesting, and a novel concept..
Cant wait
This was the alienware demo and part of the catch was that they were experienced players showing you more of the reality of gaming and not just demo play. Also I have seen this exact same thing in so many games that it is one of the greater fears I have in general. If players don't have to interact they generally don't interact and if they aren't interacting there is no community. This is part of why games like WoW have such a joke of a community.
We won't know until release how things will work out but in a game that looks pretty solid top to bottom this is one of my more specific fears is that all these 'carebear' development choices are going to hurt the game more than help it. Carebear isn't probably the correct choice in words since it instantly makes people think of PvP but I get what he is saying.
Nah, you shouldn't worry to much about it. It's similar to champion spawns in UO. Or besieged and campaigns in FFXI.
You seem to be taking an experience in WoW and trying to apply it to something totaly different, why I don't know but I will try to explain why it's different.
Massive battles or events like this that do not require you to be part of a group prior to initiating the battle or event help grow the community. Your throwing strangers together in a situation where they must rely on the others around them even if they do not know them from a hole in a wall. Fighting like this encourages people to get to know others outside of there clan/guild/tight knit group of friends/etc.
Your fear that the community will be worse due to the very desings that will help build up a community akin to UO or FFXI and keep it from devolving into those you find in DFO, WoW, etc.. is a bit unfounded.
WoW and most other MMO's really have players focusing on their small group of people they know, they party mainly with these people only, raid with them, PvP with them, farm with them, etc. while a setup like GW2 is something that puts people in a position to get to know others and build bonds.
I think the reason for your view stems from the fact that you are under the impression that players working together durring a dynamic event without having to shout lfg for an hour or so or join a guild/clan means they aren't interacting with each other. If that is the case, again what GW2 has in place actually promotes the opposite. It forces players to interact with others they may normally not interact with. You can't choose to exclude anyone from these dynamic events and no one can exclude you. You don't need to gather together the perfect party setup and such just to take part. You hop in and get in where you fit in. When that random stranger you were fighting side by side with resurects you saving you missed rewards and or a bit of travel you will understand what kind of interaction this type of setup instigates.
Since similar events (Besieged and Campaign for FFXI, Champion spawns and dev and player run events in UO) spawned fairly nice communities in UO and FFXI, I'm not sure why anyone would say well since it's being done better than it has in the past the community will be non existent.
I think we just disagree. Players that I get forced into a group with for a PQ or a Rift etc are players I forget 5 minutes later. There is no meaningful interaction and no building of community. These choices by the devs hurt community, they don't expand community. I personally think GW2 will be one of the weaker games community wise for PvE that has ever been released, all of their choices are going to hurt community and not help it. On the PvP side they might capture community but I see nothing in the PvE that will promote it. One of the games weaknesses will be lack of community, not one of the strengths.
The difference between a PQ or Rift and Event is that the events chain. With a Rift, it is a one time thing, you kill it, then you continue on to whatever it is you were planning to do before you stumbled across it. With an event, you spend the 5 minutes with that person, then you spend another 5, then another 5. Then when it's over, what are you both going to do? You're going to look for another event chain, why not continue together if the person seems like they're ok? Or why not have all five or ten people doing the chain continue on.
Going back to your earlier post, I think the reason WoW has a joke of a community, as you say, is because people are just jaded. How many times have you fought your way to a node just to have someone steal it? How many times can you and someone else run up to an escort quest, and you start typing "want to group" and they start it without you, before you finally decide you're going to start being the one screwing people over instead?
I think competition can force interaction like you say, and I think there have been examples where a great server community results. Like those EQ servers where they set up a serverwide rotation list to get everybody their epic weapons. But for every 1 server where something like that happens, I bet there's 10 where it's just might makes right, we're going to do what we want because we're a bigger guild than you. There's people I used to group with every single day in EQ, I can't remember what their toon's names were. But I can certainly remember the name of the first person who ever killstole a mob from me.
You might not be seeing anything on the PVE side that is encouraging community, but what you're also not seeing are all the barriers that prevent community. The soloable quests, the traditional structure with quest chains and not being able to group unless you're on the same stage, the fighting over spawns or ground items, the emphasis on the endgame that makes people want to just get through the content as fast as possible, the not being able to group with someone unless they're the same level as you, the halving of experience, the sharing loot. Take away all these things, and you take away what makes people just want to be left alone.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I think you both bring up interesting points, but I am also inclined to agree with Cali.
GW2 is actually trying something that we really haven't seen in a mmo before. Well we have, but there is a new spin on it. My first MMO was Asheron's Call 1, which was a highly soloable mmo. When I started to play DAoC, the new experience of forced grouping was completely new to me. I remember traveling to places which were excellent hunting grounds for my level, and then looking for a group. I met a lot of nice people and made a ton of friends in that system. However, the limitations set in place also made me feel jaded. As my Nightshade got closer to 50, I had a harder time finding groups that were accepting Nightshades. The general consesus of the community on my server was that Nightshades didn't bring much to a group, so they quit picking them up for grouping. Regardless of whether that was true or not, my enjoyment of the game was more or less dictated by the masses, because they could decide whether to group with me or not. The other half of that was groups competing for spawn camps to grind on, and at times the competition was steep. You really didn't want to see another group in an area where you wanted to hunt. If the game played out like GW2, not only would I have been able to just run around and play my Nightshade, there also wouldn't have been much of a reason for other people to reject me from groups based solely on class choice.
The competition amongst players is something that has been heavily promoted by the design of mmos, especially on the PvE side of the game. If you chose to play on a PvE server, you could also be griefed by others (such as people taking resource nodes that you just spent the past minute or so fighting to get to), and there was basically nothing you could do about it. MMOs over the past decade, I would argue, have become less social and groups tend to become more xenophobic.
ANet is trying desperately to bring back the spirit of cooperation with their systems in GW2. Nearly every part of the game they have described is being designed to foster community relations among those around you. Even the W v W v W pvp system is being designed with server community cooperation in mind. Servers with excellent community leadership that can get various people together will find a ton of success within the Mists. Which is a nice nod to the DAoC pvp endgame of the early days of DAoC.
I feel that once people begin to break from the xenophobic mindset that previous mmos have created, we will see communities flourish. The removal of compeition throughout the majority of the PvE game can only work to create positive community experiences. My only fear is that many people won't be able to change their mindset.
OP: I am so happy to be a care bear! I have no time to waste in my busy life for some 8 year old (or adult equivalent) to PK me, steal my drop, loot my corpse, and brag about having my ear on his belt. If I wanted to have that type of experience I would stop at convenience stores at night in really bad parts of town asking if anyone can change $100 bill. I want fun. I want equivalency. I want to see skilled players playing beside me.
Now as far as what the devs are doing and why, I have posted this link before.
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001646.php
These are businesses, when 88% of any community is, or will become casual, whether through inclination or through burnout, then guess what kind of game the majority will build? Yep, carebear cities. Woohoo for us! You want dark, backstabbing, sandbox PvP? Then good luck finding one. They are not popular, don't make as much money, and are few and far between. I suggest you find one though, because it's probable that this game will not be for you.
I think we'll have to just agree to disagree until we see how it all plays out because there isn't really a way to know for sure.
I think instead of community this is going to create co-gaming, where you work with people because you need them but since the system doesn't require interaction you have no emotional investment thus no community really forming. They literally will feel like the NPCs in GW1 and you won't even bother learning their names.
You'll likely still have small guild sized communities and that is who you will mostly group with but when you need more muscle some random stranger will provide it and people won't even talk to each other in these situations.
None of this will make GW2 a bad game or anything, just something I'm concerned about.
I'm amused that you're both talking and using words like 'you'. Hopefully you're using that in the generic sense.
Most of the people who are disagreeing with you, it's specifically because we're planning on NOT acting like you're describing. Yes, there will of course be people who are 'co-gaming' as you put it, but I find that these faceless people show up in almost every type of game.
Even when I played AC, AO and DAoC, there were plenty of faceless people. I just didn't bother to get to know them, because they didn't interest me. Maybe you've just forgotten all the faceless people you passed up, since you didn't bother to remember them, and you're only remembering the friends and rivals you've made?
Well, yeah.
People you see solo in other games will be as you put it "co gaming" instead.
But that is still more social than just soloing your own stuff, here they will at least have some interaction with other people.
A large percentage of all MMO players are soloplayers and do rarely if at all interact with other players. And they have been around for at least 6 years now, I am afraid we just will have to get used to them.
How often do you stop up in any game while doing soloquests and chat up people? Sure, sometimes we do them with out guilds and friends to speed things up but usually are people staying to themselves doing that.
It is in the dungeons you meet and interact with other players, and in the guildhall and at the market. You will still do that in GW2.
Maybe will this co gaming actually learn some solo players to interact with other players so they run some dungeons and get more social? Maybe not but I don't see how this will make things worse.
First of all, what do you really mean by "emotional investment". I didn't care about most of the people i played with, and it applies not only to battlegrounds/dungeons via pug of any description/dynamic event of any description.
Hell. I didnt really know nor care about half of the people i was with a guild (and trust me, I've been much of a talker)
It was always about (at very least in my case) that i become friends with poeple that i talked to and i found them to my liking.
Pursuing same goal that forces teaming up wouldn't create any emotional investment as such, thats my opinion.
Second of all, there are people like me, who due to real life issues, at the moment can't plan when they start to play and when they would finish. So it's not that Im not grouping because i don't want to, I'm not grouping because i don't know when i would have to stop, which in most cases ruins whole effort of the rest of the group.
So yes, I'm pretty excited about dynamic events and no dedicated roles for classes, because it may help people like me enjoy their time spend on MMO.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation
It seems to me that everyone is arguing over these dynamics events and their utter destruction on the community aspect of the mmo only because we do not have all of the information about all the different areas to play. Really there is no doubt that there will be guilds trying to become the largest, or most elite, or whatever. It's GUILD wars after all, they haven't forgot that. There is going to be alot of aspects that are specific to social grouping. Who cares if the solo players get to have their bit too. When I PvP, I want to be social, but when I PvE I usually just want to get absorbed doing my thing. I really think the dynamic events could be a great PvE aspect, I just wish we knew more about the PvP, GvG, and WvWvW so that we can keep perspective on what this game's roots really are.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
I am getting the feeling they HAVE forgotten it. The only thing Guild Wars there is, is Guild Vs. Guild.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
PvP will more than likely end up dictated by guilds. I mean who do you think are going to organise the players in thw different servers in WvW, and 5 vs 5 will likely be dominated by specialist guilds.
So the focus is only towards 5 vs 5? WvWvW will be hot joinable, I don't see how guilds will play a role in this.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Here's a hint the more organised server is the most likely to win. Who do you think will be the most likely to organise a large group of players? Large guilds/alliances dominate in such areas largely due to the fact it's hot joinable as organisation is the most effective method to victory. A-Net have also already stated that guilds will own keeps in WvW.
I see your point. So 5v5 and WvW. Still I would think more content for Guild should be provided.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
As for the PvP viability of this game, I actually expect it to be my E-sport solution. On top of that, my casual gankers/war based paradise in WvW combat.
I don't see the issue about having a separate PvE world. Why does anyone else?
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
What's an E-sport?
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Basically the kind of PvP that is used in official tournaments.
Don't get it ><
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_sports
Basically a form of competitive gameplay that is not only balanced, but fun to watch and examine. It is the geek form of a "jock". Now of course, some people will immediately lend this to a "oh so you mean jerks are going to play?"
I say no, it means that structured PvP will have a large degree of watchabiltiy and competitiveness... exactly what a structured and team based PvP game should be. The exact opposite to the "Care Bear" PvE world that I still plan on being an achievement hunter in, enjoying the constant struggle against the NPC hordes with my fellow GW2 players.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan