Guild Wars 2: The Evolution of Attributes

SBFord

Power, Vitality, Precision and Toughness. These are the attributes that players will have to work with in Guild Wars 2 and it's an impressive sounding list. MMORPG.com Community Manager Mike Bitton has some thoughts about the attribute system as its evolved between Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. Check it out and then leave a thought or two in the comments.

The original Guild Wars didn’t really have a strong attribute system as “Izzy” admits, noting that items were are often sought out for their skins as opposed to their statistics. If you’ve been following my articles for a while now you’d know that I’m fairly vain when it comes to my MMOs and so that sort of approach doesn’t bother me too much, but even I can appreciate picking something up that not only looks cool but improves my character. This is an RPG after all, right?

Read more of Mike Bitton's Guild Wars 2: The Evolution of Attributes.

Methos12

So basically you benefit from all stats no matter what your profession is and opt for ones over the others because of your gameplay style? Good, I still have memories of useless spirit stats on gear in that certain other MMO.

Master10K

A bit late but a great article but the only problem is this line: "If you’ve read the original article, this latest (and assuming final) iteration is a great deal more streamlined..."

 

Unfortunately this is not the final iteration as an article from Ten Ton Hammer states:

"In his blog post about the new approach to Attributes on the official blog last week, Izzy explained that the entire system helps illustrate the iterative approach to design for GW2. While the slimmed down list of attributes - Power, Precision, Vitality, and Toughness - will certainly make them easier for players to understand regardless of their MMOG experience level, their descriptions raised many concerns among fans.

This weekend I also learned that the attribute system is going to be changing again in the very near future. The core list of 4 attributes will remain intact (in other words, they won’t be adding in any new attributes to the current list), but the differences between them will represent a much more meaningful choice for players than the recently described iteration.

Since this is currently being looked at I wasn’t able to get exact details on what the changes to attributes will be, but for those of you concerned that there aren’t enough meaningful choices involved, rest assured that ArenaNet intends to tweak the system until that’s the case."

MikeB

Thanks Master10K, I will see about updating the article.

Solestran

Anything that promotes greater variety of gameplay within your class and weapon choice is great news to me, but then again, I'm not the kind of player that likes lots of restrictions.  I really, really like where ArenaNet's heads are at and will support them even though they are in league with the devil that is NCSoft.

Alot

Originally posted by Solestran

Anything that promotes greater variety of gameplay within your class and weapon choice is great news to me, but then again, I'm not the kind of player that likes lots of restrictions.  I really, really like where ArenaNet's heads are at and will support them even though they are in league with the devil that is NCSoft.

 

Support them in what way, this Alot wonders.

Otakun

Dumbing down the game makes it "deep"? Interesting logic.

Meowhead

Originally posted by Otakun

Dumbing down the game makes it "deep"? Interesting logic.

They went from 6 stats to 4 stats.

All they did was consolidate all the stats that increased attack power (Intelligence, agility, strength), and made them a single stat called power.

Then, they edited the other 3 stats, and made them so they were useful to all classes, which meant that there are 4 viable choices for each class, which means 4 meaningful possibilities.

Effectively, all that means is that instead of finding a 'strength' dagger and being annoyed because your mage can't use it, now you just find a 'power' dagger.

There was no extra complexity in having two extra stats, it just meant it divided the amount of useful weapons by 3, and created extra stats that were literally labeled on the GW2 character sheet 'These attributes are not useful for your character'.

That isn't dumbing down the game, that's just pruning stats that really were creating a lot of excess useless items, and weren't really contributing.

Fake complexity doesn't help.  Would you think the game would be more complex if there were 32 stats, and 4 of them were useful for each class in the game, with the other 28 not useful at all? :T

MumboJumbo

Originally posted by Otakun

Dumbing down the game makes it "deep"? Interesting logic.

Actually isn't the attributes the part that allows deeper customization of gameplay to complement/supplement the fixed skill bar system?

In fact to cut the ball, creating an attribute system that ties in with the skill progression ie a) better stats b) alternative effects probably involves weeding out the cr@p more than anything?

Morcotulcon

And now that they the the 4 Attributes, they will make it even better. They just don't stop improving one thing even after is considered "done". If there's something odd about it, they will try and change it for the best again.

 

@Otakun, I don't see it as "dumbing down the game itself". Instead I see it as "dumbing down the complexicity in order to have much more freedom and less restrictions", that's why it makes it "deep".

If you want to write a story, you find it harder to have a great story when you have restrictions about what you can write. If you have more freedom, you can write what you want, with different kinds of story and creativity, which can create a deeper story.

just1opinion

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Otakun

Dumbing down the game makes it "deep"? Interesting logic.

They went from 6 stats to 4 stats.

All they did was consolidate all the stats that increased attack power (Intelligence, agility, strength), and made them a single stat called power.

Then, they edited the other 3 stats, and made them so they were useful to all classes, which meant that there are 4 viable choices for each class, which means 4 meaningful possibilities.

Effectively, all that means is that instead of finding a 'strength' dagger and being annoyed because your mage can't use it, now you just find a 'power' dagger.

There was no extra complexity in having two extra stats, it just meant it divided the amount of useful weapons by 3, and created extra stats that were literally labeled on the GW2 character sheet 'These attributes are not useful for your character'.

That isn't dumbing down the game, that's just pruning stats that really were creating a lot of excess useless items, and weren't really contributing.

Fake complexity doesn't help.  Would you think the game would be more complex if there were 32 stats, and 4 of them were useful for each class in the game, with the other 28 not useful at all? :T

 

EXACTLY what I was thinking.  I think the term "dumbing down" is getting to be as ridiculously overused as the term "clone." 

just1opinion

Originally posted by Otakun

{mod edit}

That's because the people responding to your statement do not AGREE that the game is being "dumbed down." I think there is tremendous depth in the system WITHOUT needing 6 or 200 stats. It's a moot issue in my opinion.

holifeet

I'm in two minds here.

 

On one hand, I read that there are now just 4 attributes and my brain jumps in with 'eh, that's not much variety'.

 

On the other hand (and this is undoubtedly the more logical hand) I've been reading a lot about the devs at ArenaNet and, after watching a conference they did at GDC last year, I am really of the impression that they have their heads screwed on correctly and that they know where to take MMOs.

 

I'm not going to judge yet. They've already made one big change to the direction of MMOs by removing the blatant questing mechanic (or at least hiding it), and that conference explored a number of their reasons for doing what they are doing. Where normally some things might sound like excuses to me, the ArenaNet devs gave me a sense of confidence. What they said always made sense. They're being very honest and explaining every choice they make.

 

It'll have to be seen how it works but I'm remaining positive that they know what they're doing, for now.

 

The only thing I am concerned about is a worry that if they're still tinkering with stats then how far away is GW2?

Amana

Okay guys, let's get this thread back on topic. Thanks.

UsulDaNeriak

i am not sure, if reducing the attributes from 6 to 4 means dumbing down automatically.

if i compare e.g. modern MMOs with 100 skills per class and old-games with just 20 skills, the older ones have been far more complex and challenging.

nolic1

I think the plan to change them was not to follow suit with other mmo's and to change from the norm which didnt give much option in where you put your ability points. Look at EQ2 now with the new expansion they made making your character different by using int on a SK to increase you spell dmg to being all str for that class so to me not having the normal STR,STA,DEX, and so on it gives you a easy but with more options type of play. So instead of having to try to figure what stats help your class and what does not you know what they do and add to what you want to make your toon more even or more dedicated depending on your character. Seems smart to me to change it to this format then keep the norm.

BadSpock

Still sounds too restrictiing, in that it still is going to pigeon-hole players into making choices they may not want to make.

The way I see it, with two stats focused on damage output, and two stats focused on mitigating damage, you create a very, very restrictive system of survivability versus damage.

In PvP, I'd imagine balancing the two would be optimal versus being a glass cannon or an immovable object that is incapable of actually killing anything.

In PvE, however, without dedicated healing classes (which I'm all for btw) it seems this 4 stat system is simply removing one of the 3 sides of the Holy Trinity, while keeping the other two in the game.

You'll have your damage soakers (toughness/vitality) and your damage dealers (power/accuracy) and the more difficult the content becomes, the more specialized and role-specific you're going to have to be.

 

The only way I can see this really working is if every piece of gear has its stat allocation split between one of the offensive and one of the defensive stats.

Power + Vitality for raw damage output and "meat shield" type health pool large enough to shrug off damage.

Power + Toughness for raw damage output and damage mitigation to reduce incoming damage.

Accuracy + Vitality for improved combo/burst/effect generation and "meat shield" type health pool.

Accuracy + Toughness for improved combo/burst/effect generation and damage mitigation.

 

The moment you create gear that is Power + Accuracy or Toughness + Vitality, you pigeon hole players into being tanks or DPS. Again, Holy Trinity alive and well just without the 3rd component of healing.

They have a very active combat system with dodging, rolling, and very skill based use of abilities for cooperative efforts and such... I'd see this more as a game where you try to avoid taking damage at all costs. Considering no dedicated healing, why even try and include damage mitigation or health pool inflation?

Instead, make the four stats Power, Accuracy, then something like Focus and Willpower.

Power and Accuracy do the same thing, increase your base damage or critical chance, but then make Focus effect the regeneration of your "mana" pool or whatever they are calling it for using abilities, and Willpower a stat that decreases the amount of "mana" that abilities use in the first place.

That way, you have more interesting play style choices.

Slow and Heavy damage - Power + Willpower.

Fast and furious - Power + Focus

Tactical and Heavy (very combo driven) - Accuracy + Willpower

Tactical and consistent - Accuracy + Focus.

That way things are more split between steady, constant damage, bursty high damage, slow to build then powerful combo effects, and tactical, status effect driven buff/debuff aided damage.

Golelorn

Honestly, who needs a bunch of stats? Trim the fat, I say!

Let's cut down the levels, too. Why so many?

Mobs? Let's cut those down. I mean XP is XP, right?

Talents, skills, abilities, etc. Cut 'em down. Too many choices, and too much coding.

 

I'm mostly being facetious.

Xzen

I think eliminating useless attributes is a good move. Now I dont have to worry about picking up an epic Longsword with +20 int and /raging.

just1opinion

Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

i am not sure, if reducing the attributes from 6 to 4 means dumbing down automatically.

if i compare e.g. modern MMOs with 100 skills per class and old-games with just 20 skills, the older ones have been far more complex and challenging.

 

Deleted, because I couldn't remember what I was going to say LOL  OMG...old age SUCKS.

Zeroxin

Originally posted by heerobya

Still sounds too restrictiing, in that it still is going to pigeon-hole players into making choices they may not want to make.

The way I see it, with two stats focused on damage output, and two stats focused on mitigating damage, you create a very, very restrictive system of survivability versus damage.

In PvP, I'd imagine balancing the two would be optimal versus being a glass cannon or an immovable object that is incapable of actually killing anything.

In PvE, however, without dedicated healing classes (which I'm all for btw) it seems this 4 stat system is simply removing one of the 3 sides of the Holy Trinity, while keeping the other two in the game.

You'll have your damage soakers (toughness/vitality) and your damage dealers (power/accuracy) and the more difficult the content becomes, the more specialized and role-specific you're going to have to be.

 

The only way I can see this really working is if every piece of gear has its stat allocation split between one of the offensive and one of the defensive stats.

Power + Vitality for raw damage output and "meat shield" type health pool large enough to shrug off damage.

Power + Toughness for raw damage output and damage mitigation to reduce incoming damage.

Accuracy + Vitality for improved combo/burst/effect generation and "meat shield" type health pool.

Accuracy + Toughness for improved combo/burst/effect generation and damage mitigation.

 

The moment you create gear that is Power + Accuracy or Toughness + Vitality, you pigeon hole players into being tanks or DPS. Again, Holy Trinity alive and well just without the 3rd component of healing.

They have a very active combat system with dodging, rolling, and very skill based use of abilities for cooperative efforts and such... I'd see this more as a game where you try to avoid taking damage at all costs. Considering no dedicated healing, why even try and include damage mitigation or health pool inflation?

Instead, make the four stats Power, Accuracy, then something like Focus and Willpower.

Power and Accuracy do the same thing, increase your base damage or critical chance, but then make Focus effect the regeneration of your "mana" pool or whatever they are calling it for using abilities, and Willpower a stat that decreases the amount of "mana" that abilities use in the first place.

That way, you have more interesting play style choices.

Slow and Heavy damage - Power + Willpower.

Fast and furious - Power + Focus

Tactical and Heavy (very combo driven) - Accuracy + Willpower

Tactical and consistent - Accuracy + Focus.

That way things are more split between steady, constant damage, bursty high damage, slow to build then powerful combo effects, and tactical, status effect driven buff/debuff aided damage.

 

I love good suggestions and this is definitely one of them.

BadSpock

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by heerobya

Still sounds too restrictiing, in that it still is going to pigeon-hole players into making choices they may not want to make.

The way I see it, with two stats focused on damage output, and two stats focused on mitigating damage, you create a very, very restrictive system of survivability versus damage.

In PvP, I'd imagine balancing the two would be optimal versus being a glass cannon or an immovable object that is incapable of actually killing anything.

In PvE, however, without dedicated healing classes (which I'm all for btw) it seems this 4 stat system is simply removing one of the 3 sides of the Holy Trinity, while keeping the other two in the game.

You'll have your damage soakers (toughness/vitality) and your damage dealers (power/accuracy) and the more difficult the content becomes, the more specialized and role-specific you're going to have to be.

 

The only way I can see this really working is if every piece of gear has its stat allocation split between one of the offensive and one of the defensive stats.

Power + Vitality for raw damage output and "meat shield" type health pool large enough to shrug off damage.

Power + Toughness for raw damage output and damage mitigation to reduce incoming damage.

Accuracy + Vitality for improved combo/burst/effect generation and "meat shield" type health pool.

Accuracy + Toughness for improved combo/burst/effect generation and damage mitigation.

 

The moment you create gear that is Power + Accuracy or Toughness + Vitality, you pigeon hole players into being tanks or DPS. Again, Holy Trinity alive and well just without the 3rd component of healing.

They have a very active combat system with dodging, rolling, and very skill based use of abilities for cooperative efforts and such... I'd see this more as a game where you try to avoid taking damage at all costs. Considering no dedicated healing, why even try and include damage mitigation or health pool inflation?

Instead, make the four stats Power, Accuracy, then something like Focus and Willpower.

Power and Accuracy do the same thing, increase your base damage or critical chance, but then make Focus effect the regeneration of your "mana" pool or whatever they are calling it for using abilities, and Willpower a stat that decreases the amount of "mana" that abilities use in the first place.

That way, you have more interesting play style choices.

Slow and Heavy damage - Power + Willpower.

Fast and furious - Power + Focus

Tactical and Heavy (very combo driven) - Accuracy + Willpower

Tactical and consistent - Accuracy + Focus.

That way things are more split between steady, constant damage, bursty high damage, slow to build then powerful combo effects, and tactical, status effect driven buff/debuff aided damage.

 

I love good suggestions and this is definitely one of them.

Thank you, and honestly after reading that article I was extremely dissapointed. I always try and figure out things logically, look beyond the hype and spin and figure out how things are actually going to work out in game, on a practical level...

And their system as is shows me nothing but a Holy Trinity system without the 3rd pillar of healing.  

Alot

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by heerobya

Still sounds too restrictiing, in that it still is going to pigeon-hole players into making choices they may not want to make.

The way I see it, with two stats focused on damage output, and two stats focused on mitigating damage, you create a very, very restrictive system of survivability versus damage.

In PvP, I'd imagine balancing the two would be optimal versus being a glass cannon or an immovable object that is incapable of actually killing anything.

In PvE, however, without dedicated healing classes (which I'm all for btw) it seems this 4 stat system is simply removing one of the 3 sides of the Holy Trinity, while keeping the other two in the game.

You'll have your damage soakers (toughness/vitality) and your damage dealers (power/accuracy) and the more difficult the content becomes, the more specialized and role-specific you're going to have to be.

 

The only way I can see this really working is if every piece of gear has its stat allocation split between one of the offensive and one of the defensive stats.

Power + Vitality for raw damage output and "meat shield" type health pool large enough to shrug off damage.

Power + Toughness for raw damage output and damage mitigation to reduce incoming damage.

Accuracy + Vitality for improved combo/burst/effect generation and "meat shield" type health pool.

Accuracy + Toughness for improved combo/burst/effect generation and damage mitigation.

 

The moment you create gear that is Power + Accuracy or Toughness + Vitality, you pigeon hole players into being tanks or DPS. Again, Holy Trinity alive and well just without the 3rd component of healing.

They have a very active combat system with dodging, rolling, and very skill based use of abilities for cooperative efforts and such... I'd see this more as a game where you try to avoid taking damage at all costs. Considering no dedicated healing, why even try and include damage mitigation or health pool inflation?

Instead, make the four stats Power, Accuracy, then something like Focus and Willpower.

Power and Accuracy do the same thing, increase your base damage or critical chance, but then make Focus effect the regeneration of your "mana" pool or whatever they are calling it for using abilities, and Willpower a stat that decreases the amount of "mana" that abilities use in the first place.

That way, you have more interesting play style choices.

Slow and Heavy damage - Power + Willpower.

Fast and furious - Power + Focus

Tactical and Heavy (very combo driven) - Accuracy + Willpower

Tactical and consistent - Accuracy + Focus.

That way things are more split between steady, constant damage, bursty high damage, slow to build then powerful combo effects, and tactical, status effect driven buff/debuff aided damage.

 

I love good suggestions and this is definitely one of them.

Thank you, and honestly after reading that article I was extremely dissapointed. I always try and figure out things logically, look beyond the hype and spin and figure out how things are actually going to work out in game, on a practical level...

And their system as is shows me nothing but a Holy Trinity system without the 3rd pillar of healing.  

That depends on how threat works, so far it seems there are no skills which generate threat or traits that provide a threat boost. And if I may recall there is an armor/health factor concerning threat that causes players with low armor/health to be targeted more frequently by enemy NPCs than players with high armor/health.

Edit: No armor factor known so far, but i would be surprised if it isn't present in GW2, as it was also present in GW1.

BadSpock

Originally posted by Alot

That depends on how threat works, so far it seems there are no skills which generate threat or traits that provide a threat boost. And if I may recall there is an armor/health factor concerning threat that causes players with low armor/health to be targeted more frequently by enemy NPCs than players with high armor/health.

Edit: No armor factor known so far, but i would be surprised if it isn't present in GW2, as it was also present in GW1.

See, again to me that says that it would be completely pointless to focus your stats on Vitality and Toughness then.

If the mobs are going to go for the high Power/Accuracy folks over you, and you've gimped your own damage output by focusing on Vitality and Toughness...

What's the point? 

Why even put "tanking" stats in the game if there is no tanking? 

Even in a system where the gear "forces" you to pick up some vitality/toughness, what's the point?

If everyone has to take some Vitality and Toughness, why not just bake those stats into the game naturally instead of on gear and make the gear choices more interesting by making stats that not only effect how you do damage, but how often and what other effects it has etc. like my suggestion?

See what I mean?

If everyone at max level has to pick up at least say +50 vitality and +50 toughness, why not just remove vitality and toughness from the game, bake that mitigation + health into the max level stats and give us more interesting stats to work with?

Alot

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by Alot

That depends on how threat works, so far it seems there are no skills which generate threat or traits that provide a threat boost. And if I may recall there is an armor/health factor concerning threat that causes players with low armor/health to be targeted more frequently by enemy NPCs than players with high armor/health.

Edit: No armor factor known so far, but i would be surprised if it isn't present in GW2, as it was also present in GW1.

See, again to me that says that it would be completely pointless to focus your stats on Vitality and Toughness then.

If the mobs are going to go for the high Power/Accuracy folks over you, and you've gimped your own damage output by focusing on Vitality and Toughness...

What's the point? 

Why even put "tanking" stats in the game if there is no tanking? 

Naughty boy, you know tanking is now called control. Those high Power/Accuracy folks may regret their love for being glass cannons and may choose to invest some more points in the defensive attributes. And the armor factor may not even be included, and right now, position is the most important factor according to the developers in the IRC chat some time ago.

BadSpock

Originally posted by Alot

Naughty boy, you know tanking is now called control. Those high Power/Accuracy folks may regret their love for being glass cannons and may choose to invest some more points in the defensive attributes. And the armor factor may not even be included, and right now, position is the most important factor according to the developers in the IRC chat some time ago.

So if positioning and control are the most important factors to not getting your butt kicked by mobs, are these kinds of abilities tied into the Power and Accuracy stats or the Vitality and Toughness?

I mean if the player who want to be the best at positioning and control then focus on Vitality and Toughness over Power and Accuracy, thus allowing them to alter the conditions of the battle in their favor and negate a need for higher damage output through status modifying effects etc. then I could see this system working.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea that the high damage dealers are considered the biggest threat by the mobs and as such the enemies naturally go for the biggest threat.

But I've spent quite a bit of time being "that guy" in PvP and PvE that was annoying as sh!t in terms of harrassing, controlling, stunning, silencing, etc. while the other players actually beat stuff up.

It's fun for a while but you are completely useless alone without support.

In any game where you have to kill things to level up and get stronger, being able to kill faster will always always always be more profitable in the long run. 

No MMORPG I have ever played has gotten the system just right where the people who kill slower have enough of a decrease in downtime or increase in survivability etc. to justify NOT going the "dps spec" for leveling up.