Originally posted by Cursedsei Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by Cursedsei
Originally posted by Foomerang Consolidating stats and removing "clutter" didnt really pan out well for WoW. It is way too simple and everybody is the same. Lets hope the same thing doesnt happen to gw2.
Foom, you are thinking about skills, not stats. You can't honestly tell me that their old system, which had 5-10 stats affecting one thing, was really quite so necessary to be "unique". I'm exaggerating, yes, but having played WoW, convoluted doth not equate to deep and meaningful gameplay, it inhibits it. I shouldn't have to number-crunch how much strength affects me compared to agility compared to haste compared to armor penetration compared to crit rate compared to attack power compared to spell power (I played a Ret pally) compared to expertise compared to hit rating and compared to whether or not I'm wearing one sock or two. All that, just for damage. edit: Forgot about Weapon skill too... so wow... really was 10 stats...
But thankfully, we're not talking about giving everyone everyone elses spells and abilities, we're talking about stats, a system that is present between every character to begin with, regardless of class.
good point. 4 stats is manageable. I hope I dont get flamed for this, but when I think of gw2, I think of Phantasy Star Online. Everyone can fit every role, actively dodge incoming attacks, and it had a simple stats system. It was an addicting online game but it really pales in comparison to a full blown mmorpg. Id like to see anet embrace the scale and scope of a legit mmorpg. But there are all these little things that hint at a fun online romp but not enough meat n potatoes to call home so to speak. I look forward to being proven wrong about all of that when GW2 launches because I love the art style, races, animations, and pvp approach. Yeah you may say Im already wrong but none of us truly know that yet. Still its fun to speculate either way. I've played Phantasy, but never had the chance to play online with it. That said though, there isn't anything intrinsincly wrong about saying that. The games, in the end, were fun to play, and in the end that was what mattered, and what should matter with Guild Wars 2. As for content, I think Arena.Net has learned its lessons with GW 1. The game certainly didn't start out with all of the content it has now, but there is a great deal to do in GW 1 now, it would take a good while to start getting through it. I don't see Arena.Net just forgetting to do this with GW 2. well in the end i know im gonna have a good time with all these new themeparks coming out.
I don't get all the complaining about "dumbing stats down." Developers are usually bad at dumbing the stats down. Players on the otherhad are fantastic at it. You know for a fact if the game had 50 different stats, eventually someone would work out the "optimal setup" and you either conform or "fail."
4 stats or 50, players will work out which are the best, then boil them down to a "perfect" build and this will change in flavour each patch etc.
The fact is by taking the focus of stat juggling and balancing you can make PvP and PvE more about player skill and tactics
The idea makes me pause a little. I can't say I am not concerned, but I have to wait and see. It's too early to know for sure, but I think anyone pausing like me has a reason to do so. Do I really need to list the number of games, MMOs and otherwise, that simplify things to the point where depth becomes an issue?
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Bah, get your heads out of lesser MMOs and start thinking like GW2 people! Those inferior games that pigeonhole you into healer/tank/dps almost require themselves to add extra layers of attributes in order to support those roles. Tanks need this, healers need that, dps simply must have this for ranged, that for melee.
This isn't your grandpa's MMO anymore. The illusion of depth doesn't need to be falsely overlaid onto your character to hide the fact that you've lost all depth by being forced into a role. You are an omni-character now, capable of keeping yourself alive (and helping friends), keeping the enemy in a controlled state and yes, smacking the crap out of him, all at the same time! You are ranged, you are melee. You're a medic, a reviver, an inspiration to your allies and death to your enemies. When you add attributes that take away this real depth, you find yourself forced into a feigned depth in order to fulfill a single, shallow role.
Depth is not being lost here. REAL depth is being realized by not forcing you into specific attributes for specific roles. Put away the cookie cutters, they will not be needed here. Accept that you can and will do it all and you'll see the real depth of the game for what it is... your ability to freely think for yourself while doing anything that is required to turn the battle in your favor.
Or, you could go back to a hunter on WoW, stack agility and go 1,1,2,1,1,3,1,1,4,1,1,2,1,1,3...
It was a long time ago since stats really mattered in MMOs, and even in the games they mattered most it was a really watered down version of the P&P games.
Ltes face it: level and gear are the things that matters now, possibly with some speccing or in GW2s case not so much gear but skills instead.
The whole thing is so watered down, in this case they just made it as simple as possible but the attributes in any other games more or less do the same thing, even though TORs skill probably will affect how the NPCs see you.
One one hand streamlining is good. Nobody likes useless stats. Creating a system where any item you find always has the stats your character wants is great.
One the other hand I fear it will lead to much more cookie cutter builds. You effectively have 2 stats. DPS and EHP ( Effective HP. )
Power and Precision boost your DPS. Vitality and Toughness boost your EHP. For anyone with decent math magic it will be quite easy to figure out which combination leads to the highest DPS. If you add in traits like those described that add additional effects with crits then it will be slightly harder but even then after a week of playing there will be guides on the forums detailing the best stats for every class.
With more stats you generally had 5 effective variables instead of 2. DPS, HPS ( Healing Per Second ), Effective HP, Effective Mana and Regeneration.
So I do believe the system has been dumbed down. You've gone from DPS, HPS, EHP, EM and Reg to only DPS and EHP.
Granted, HPS and DPS should probably be consolidated into the same stat but the other stats were interesting choices to make. Now you can only pick between damage and defense.
I think in the end their motivation of streamlining was good, their implementation of removing half the effective statistics of your character was bad.
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I accidentally deleted your whole quote. I'm sure you remember what you wrote though!
Power and Precision aren't the same, because the main focus of crits in GW2 isn't the extra damage, but the traits that chain off of crits to do additional effects. If you were to JUST pick Precision, but not have any matching traits, then you'd be gimping yourself. One is damage oriented (Power), while the other is condition oriented, which leads towards things like extra control and extra support.
Toughness and Vitality actually theoretically function differently as well, though apparently they've decided the difference isn't enough, which is why they're reiterating the style they were using. Still, it reminds me of the difference in most games between dodging attacks or being able to take more hits (Like a Ninja vs. a Paladin in FFXI, or an AGI knight vs. a VIT knight in RO). It also makes a big difference when it comes to how you deal with armor-ignoring abilities. Still, apparently Arenanet agrees that those two are too close together, because they're going to be iterated again.
Also, in this game, mana is almost a purely defensive pool, so mana pool/regen actually affects how much you can dodge roll/heal more than attacks. Raising that mostly appears like it would just be a boost of defense (Like the other two stats that do that)
Two things that are game stats in many MMORPGs (Chance to hit and chance to dodge) have changed from game stats into something actually left in the hands of the player. Still, that's two stats that simply because of the combat engine change, don't really make sense.
There can be arguments made that the GW2 attribute system is simpler than systems from other games(Of course it's true. Just a good look at the system used for Cyberpunk P&P RPG, just off the top of my head...), but it's not any simpler than the previous 6 stat system Arenanet was using. Some people seem to think that by moving from 6 -> 4, they're dumbing down, but they haven't changed their OWN level of complexity, so far as I can tell.
Power and Precision aren't the same, because the main focus of crits in GW2 isn't the extra damage, but the traits that chain off of crits to do additional effects. If you were to JUST pick Precision, but not have any matching traits, then you'd be gimping yourself. One is damage oriented (Power), while the other is condition oriented, which leads towards things like extra control and extra support.
Toughness and Vitality actually theoretically function differently as well, though apparently they've decided the difference isn't enough, which is why they're reiterating the style they were using. Still, it reminds me of the difference in most games between dodging attacks or being able to take more hits (Like a Ninja vs. a Paladin in FFXI, or an AGI knight vs. a VIT knight in RO). It also makes a big difference when it comes to how you deal with armor-ignoring abilities. Still, apparently Arenanet agrees that those two are too close together, because they're going to be iterated again.
Also, in this game, mana is almost a purely defensive pool, so mana pool/regen actually affects how much you can dodge roll/heal more than attacks. Raising that mostly appears like it would just be a boost of defense (Like the other two stats that do that)
Two things that are game stats in many MMORPGs (Chance to hit and chance to dodge) have changed from game stats into something actually left in the hands of the player. Still, that's two stats that simply because of the combat engine change, don't really make sense.
There can be arguments made that the GW2 attribute system is simpler than systems from other games(Of course it's true. Just a good look at the system used for Cyberpunk P&P RPG, just off the top of my head...), but it's not any simpler than the previous 6 stat system Arenanet was using. Some people seem to think that by moving from 6 -> 4, they're dumbing down, but they haven't changed their OWN level of complexity, so far as I can tell.
In that case they've went to 3 stats: DPS, Trait Proc Rate and EHP. That's provided that there's traits out there that have effects that do more then just damage/defense.
The burning example could easily be reduced to DPS. If every attack has an A% chance to do B damage over C seconds and I can use it every D seconds then I can easily calculate wether power or precision adds more DPS. I'd have to do a bit more complex calculation to take into account that a target may already be burning when I set it on fire but the end result is only damage.
Even a healing trait could be reduced to EHP. If it procs for A health every B seconds on average that means in a fight of C seconds I'm getting A*(C/B) EHP extra.
Energy and such can however not be simply reduced to DPS/EHP even though it can be used to increase either. Thing is that in a short fight energy is irrelevant. In a longer fight it becomes relevant. So increasing energy over power may increase your long term DPS but decrease your short term burst. So there's interaction between energy and DPS but they're not the same variable.
It may not have simplified the older ANet system but it does simplify the systems most MMOs use. Wether this is good or bad depends on the player, but it is a simplification. There's simply less unique variables.
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Also, in this game, mana is almost a purely defensive pool, so mana pool/regen actually affects how much you can dodge roll/heal more than attacks. Raising that mostly appears like it would just be a boost of defense (Like the other two stats that do that)
So... do you think that means the raising the defense stat will boost your mana pool or what? I can't fathom power (what intelligence got dropped for) increasing it... I never played GW1 so maybe I'm missing something, but it just looks like from the descriptions in the article that this setup would favor melee characters more - where's the "wisdom" stat that increases MP/regen?
So... do you think that means the raising the defense stat will boost your mana pool or what? I can't fathom power (what intelligence got dropped for) increasing it... I never played GW1 so maybe I'm missing something, but it just looks like from the descriptions in the article that this setup would favor melee characters more - where's the "wisdom" stat that increases MP/regen?
Well, there's no mana pool, it's just generic 'energy' that's shared between all classes (Makes more sense that a warrior uses energy, I suppose). Right now, with the new stats, it doesn't look like any of them actually increase the energy pool
Given that, here's an interesting question for you to think about. What's the point to having a bigger energy pool for casters vs. melee? I'm curious what your answer is.
Well, there's no mana pool, it's just generic 'energy' that's shared between all classes...
Given that, here's an interesting question for you to think about. What's the point to having a bigger energy pool for casters vs. melee? I'm curious what your answer is.
I see, that makes more sense and I'm actually excited to play a caster that uses something other than mana.
I just assumed mana would be used because of the "Mage" preconception. As to your question, I think it at least used to be safe to say (before wow raid dps) that casters hit harder. Their spells ignored armor, and they were able to spam aoe's that would tear things apart, but not be able to maintain the onslaught as long as other classes.
Furthermore, if the mage runs out of mana (or in this case, energy), he stops and gets it back somehow via skills or drinking or w/e... if the tank runs out of energy and is no longer able to taunt or keep up threat, the whole group is pretty much screwed.
Also, for a mage, it's energy pool (at least in past games) has been its only way to survive and kill things. Whereas a melee class can still whack things with their sword for base dmg if they run out of energy, a caster is a sitting duck if he/she runs out. This would be one reason to make their pools a tad larger, though, I have no idea what the mechanics of 'energy' are...
If it regens super fast like focus or energy in other games than maybe it's all moot and no one will be able to "spam" abilities without running out right away, which I think would be a shame.
So... do you think that means the raising the defense stat will boost your mana pool or what? I can't fathom power (what intelligence got dropped for) increasing it... I never played GW1 so maybe I'm missing something, but it just looks like from the descriptions in the article that this setup would favor melee characters more - where's the "wisdom" stat that increases MP/regen?
Well, there's no mana pool, it's just generic 'energy' that's shared between all classes (Makes more sense that a warrior uses energy, I suppose). Right now, with the new stats, it doesn't look like any of them actually increase the energy pool
Given that, here's an interesting question for you to think about. What's the point to having a bigger energy pool for casters vs. melee? I'm curious what your answer is.
Dodging seems to take more energy than normal skills, and defensive skills take more energy than offensive skills. So...
For Lyssa's sake, doesn't anyone pay attention? Why is the hell are you considering calculating dps? You're not going to be a dps character! There will pretty much be no 'plant and pew-pew' fights, therefore any dps calculations are invalid. Period. You'll be snaring enemies, changing position often, helping allies, etc.
FORGET DPS.
You all are so ingrained in the archaic trinity system that you're stuck thinking like that even though you know better. Think! Crits, for example, apply conditions. OK, what are you trying to do... add a little extra control? OK, choose to apply cripples on crits. Add a little damage, add burning. Increase your crit over your raw power. Maybe you'd rather go a little more raw power over crit, well so be it. But trying to calculate (or imagine you can) dps in a game with no dps role? Insanity. You can't do it.
Hang on, someone put a firewall up, I'm going to go use a cross-combo and spread a hunk a burnin' love...
You guys look waaaay too deep into stats. Anet made this decision based on THEIR combat system. Tell me.. in what other MMO, that has more attributes, do you change your role (from healer/support to dps if you really need a trinity example) on the fly like in GW2? If any.. how does it work for them?
Read the blog post. Making more attributes does NOT work for GW2 if they want people to do this, because players would be deprived of damage if they had to distribute points into other attributes. Consequently making all characters pigeonholed into either melee or ranged.
Besides, the article says they're still changing the att. system so I got a feeling this whole discussion is going to be for nothing in a few weeks.
There is 4 stats. lets assume that specialization is worth it, and is not ruined by getting to good +ALL stats items.(remember crafting?) and not by having to little overall effeckt.
if you specialise in only 1 stat, your strength and weaknesses is going to be pretty obvius.
But if we look at 2 stats there is 6 combos. And they cater for some very different play styles
thesse are
1) a toughness + vitality combo as pure defense ( this could be the Frontline control/called tank in the old days )
2) a power + precission as outright damage (max damage)
3) power + vitality for take and give big hits (boss fight ? or old school grind)
4)power + toughness for grinding multiple mobs
5)precission+toughness that aims at surviving alot of small hits while controlling or damage (multiple) mobs with special effeckts
6)precission + vitality that aims at surviving big hits long enough to get special effects to shine.
Its up to ArenaNet too ensure that all thesse combos have their place in the game. By making different encounters where the same 1 setup isn't always the best. I trust they will do that.
But beside that there is also the scalling effects
I can imagine so far that the scaling of monsters based on the numbers of players , will influence the choices alot from a min /max viewpoint. When monsters gets more hitpoint, then conditions on them last longer making stacked effeckts geetting there full potential. When they unlock new skills aswell as spawn bigger groups, the desireble defense might change.
Scaling players up and down based on the area lvl could make some choices more desireble than other! (go for choice 1 if you are the weak link in a group! and properly choice 2 if you are 3 lvl above the area and the rest).
I think there is plenty to work with here for min/maxers, (hopefully for a long time!), plenty to play with for explorers, and interesting stuff for PvP'ers, and alot of stuff for socialisers to educate each other in.
and with the bonus that stats does make sense on drops. Whats not to like ?
I don't see a inherrent problem with this system design, but it stand and falls with its implementations. Done well and this might be the first MMO where stats will catch my interest! Done bad and they could have keept GW1 statsystem
The key is to be able to feel the differense between toughness and vitality, and between precission and power , if that is achived then it opens for some interesting setups.
Reading through this I laugh, like several of the other posters who seem to get it, at the rest of you for your short sightedness and tunnel vision. All the lack of depth that having few stats is hog wash. Look at any MMO out there with stats and you will see "cookie cutter" builds in each of them. They are all min/maxed, often to the point that anyone who attempts to be a "jack of all trade" is gimped. Roles become defined by the min/max or vice versa and all depth goes out the window.
GW2 doesn't have "roles"; Every profession is a "jack of all trades". So how would putting a complex stat system help? All it would do is direct people into "roles" thus gimping them selves. It is like the reverse of any MMO you have played.
Professions are geared toward playstyle, not role. It is about the feel of the profession and the means by which they move from role to role. Look at ANets examples, and you can clearly see why they need a simpler system to allow for greater depth of play. They don't want you to limit your self to a specific role because it you do you will fail. Your value goes down as you specialize in this game and that is why they have worked so hard to create systems that give you flexability at any given moment.
Might I also add, you are simply looking at the Attribute System and are failing to take into account the rest of the systems that impact character. Race, Profession, Weapon, Traits. All of these have various options to modify how you play. Race and profession give you multiple options for abilities, more than you can put on your bar, giving a plethra of build options. Each profession has access to a multitude of weapons, each with their own abilities, giving you another choice to make on what abilities to have. Traits modify any of the above abilities, often in ways that are not simply statistical (ie increase direct damage), lending to even more depth. Stats aren't the only thing your character is defined by, if anything it is the least defining thing.
Blah blahblah, dumbing down or not, there is no telling till you tried it. And that goes in line with my thoughts of GW2 - I dont care about the hd graphics and awesome animations, it can be the best game ever and it can also be the worst, the game mechanics will decide it all, and you cant tell till you tried it.
That depends on how threat works, so far it seems there are no skills which generate threat or traits that provide a threat boost. And if I may recall there is an armor/health factor concerning threat that causes players with low armor/health to be targeted more frequently by enemy NPCs than players with high armor/health.
Edit: No armor factor known so far, but i would be surprised if it isn't present in GW2, as it was also present in GW1.
See, again to me that says that it would be completely pointless to focus your stats on Vitality and Toughness then.
If the mobs are going to go for the high Power/Accuracy folks over you, and you've gimped your own damage output by focusing on Vitality and Toughness...
What's the point?
Why even put "tanking" stats in the game if there is no tanking?
Even in a system where the gear "forces" you to pick up some vitality/toughness, what's the point?
If everyone has to take some Vitality and Toughness, why not just bake those stats into the game naturally instead of on gear and make the gear choices more interesting by making stats that not only effect how you do damage, but how often and what other effects it has etc. like my suggestion?
See what I mean?
If everyone at max level has to pick up at least say +50 vitality and +50 toughness, why not just remove vitality and toughness from the game, bake that mitigation + health into the max level stats and give us more interesting stats to work with?
I'll just add my own 2 cents here. I doubt you're dodging shots in PvP, so you can stay as the glass cannon and prepare your asshole, because I'll wager thieves and rangers will rape your ass so hard that your asshole won't need to stretch to poop ever again.
"i have a lvl 26 maplestory warrior lvl 9 asda story archer and a adventure quest mage lvl 15 and my xfire is my bro's"
What I was going to say is that character statistics (str, end/sta/con, int, agi, etc) are a staple in most "deeper" RPGs and MMOs. That explains the more intense discussion here, at least in part. There is far more to the customization, progression, and usefulness of a character, however, and I think ArenaNet is seeing that and making changes to the genre that accomodate the playstyle they are working towards. If GW2 was similar in stats and alternate advancement as a game like, say, EQ, it could not fit the mold of casual gameplay like they've been striving for since GW1. If they did try to implement the old school-style attributes and such, they would have to make their game fit the genre's requirements. As we saw with GW1, they don't seem to be interested in fitting their games into a specific, existing place. That's a good thing - but the qualifier for the success of GW2 is that they make the RPG elements mesh with the gameplay and character development from beginning to end.
I will be reactivating Rift here in a few days as that game is a blast for me, but I am anticipating GW2. They made a solid, balanced, PvP and casual PvE experience on GW1. I hope they can make GW2 the evolution of that.
I read an interview about how the stats are going to be less RNG based, always sucked in other games to for example die because you didn't dodge at the correct moment, in GW2 dodge is 100% if you use the ability so it's always your own fault instead of "bad luck".
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Foom, you are thinking about skills, not stats. You can't honestly tell me that their old system, which had 5-10 stats affecting one thing, was really quite so necessary to be "unique". I'm exaggerating, yes, but having played WoW, convoluted doth not equate to deep and meaningful gameplay, it inhibits it. I shouldn't have to number-crunch how much strength affects me compared to agility compared to haste compared to armor penetration compared to crit rate compared to attack power compared to spell power (I played a Ret pally) compared to expertise compared to hit rating and compared to whether or not I'm wearing one sock or two. All that, just for damage.
edit: Forgot about Weapon skill too... so wow... really was 10 stats...
But thankfully, we're not talking about giving everyone everyone elses spells and abilities, we're talking about stats, a system that is present between every character to begin with, regardless of class.
good point. 4 stats is manageable. I hope I dont get flamed for this, but when I think of gw2, I think of Phantasy Star Online. Everyone can fit every role, actively dodge incoming attacks, and it had a simple stats system. It was an addicting online game but it really pales in comparison to a full blown mmorpg. Id like to see anet embrace the scale and scope of a legit mmorpg. But there are all these little things that hint at a fun online romp but not enough meat n potatoes to call home so to speak.
I look forward to being proven wrong about all of that when GW2 launches because I love the art style, races, animations, and pvp approach. Yeah you may say Im already wrong but none of us truly know that yet. Still its fun to speculate either way.
I've played Phantasy, but never had the chance to play online with it. That said though, there isn't anything intrinsincly wrong about saying that. The games, in the end, were fun to play, and in the end that was what mattered, and what should matter with Guild Wars 2.
As for content, I think Arena.Net has learned its lessons with GW 1. The game certainly didn't start out with all of the content it has now, but there is a great deal to do in GW 1 now, it would take a good while to start getting through it. I don't see Arena.Net just forgetting to do this with GW 2.
well in the end i know im gonna have a good time with all these new themeparks coming out.
I don't get all the complaining about "dumbing stats down." Developers are usually bad at dumbing the stats down. Players on the otherhad are fantastic at it. You know for a fact if the game had 50 different stats, eventually someone would work out the "optimal setup" and you either conform or "fail."
4 stats or 50, players will work out which are the best, then boil them down to a "perfect" build and this will change in flavour each patch etc.
The fact is by taking the focus of stat juggling and balancing you can make PvP and PvE more about player skill and tactics
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The idea makes me pause a little. I can't say I am not concerned, but I have to wait and see. It's too early to know for sure, but I think anyone pausing like me has a reason to do so. Do I really need to list the number of games, MMOs and otherwise, that simplify things to the point where depth becomes an issue?
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Bah, get your heads out of lesser MMOs and start thinking like GW2 people! Those inferior games that pigeonhole you into healer/tank/dps almost require themselves to add extra layers of attributes in order to support those roles. Tanks need this, healers need that, dps simply must have this for ranged, that for melee.
This isn't your grandpa's MMO anymore. The illusion of depth doesn't need to be falsely overlaid onto your character to hide the fact that you've lost all depth by being forced into a role. You are an omni-character now, capable of keeping yourself alive (and helping friends), keeping the enemy in a controlled state and yes, smacking the crap out of him, all at the same time! You are ranged, you are melee. You're a medic, a reviver, an inspiration to your allies and death to your enemies. When you add attributes that take away this real depth, you find yourself forced into a feigned depth in order to fulfill a single, shallow role.
Depth is not being lost here. REAL depth is being realized by not forcing you into specific attributes for specific roles. Put away the cookie cutters, they will not be needed here. Accept that you can and will do it all and you'll see the real depth of the game for what it is... your ability to freely think for yourself while doing anything that is required to turn the battle in your favor.
Or, you could go back to a hunter on WoW, stack agility and go 1,1,2,1,1,3,1,1,4,1,1,2,1,1,3...
Oderint, dum metuant.
It was a long time ago since stats really mattered in MMOs, and even in the games they mattered most it was a really watered down version of the P&P games.
Ltes face it: level and gear are the things that matters now, possibly with some speccing or in GW2s case not so much gear but skills instead.
The whole thing is so watered down, in this case they just made it as simple as possible but the attributes in any other games more or less do the same thing, even though TORs skill probably will affect how the NPCs see you.
Not GW2s strong point but neither any other MMOs.
I'm of mixed feelings.
One one hand streamlining is good. Nobody likes useless stats. Creating a system where any item you find always has the stats your character wants is great.
One the other hand I fear it will lead to much more cookie cutter builds. You effectively have 2 stats. DPS and EHP ( Effective HP. )
Power and Precision boost your DPS. Vitality and Toughness boost your EHP. For anyone with decent math magic it will be quite easy to figure out which combination leads to the highest DPS. If you add in traits like those described that add additional effects with crits then it will be slightly harder but even then after a week of playing there will be guides on the forums detailing the best stats for every class.
With more stats you generally had 5 effective variables instead of 2. DPS, HPS ( Healing Per Second ), Effective HP, Effective Mana and Regeneration.
So I do believe the system has been dumbed down. You've gone from DPS, HPS, EHP, EM and Reg to only DPS and EHP.
Granted, HPS and DPS should probably be consolidated into the same stat but the other stats were interesting choices to make. Now you can only pick between damage and defense.
I think in the end their motivation of streamlining was good, their implementation of removing half the effective statistics of your character was bad.
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Power and Precision aren't the same, because the main focus of crits in GW2 isn't the extra damage, but the traits that chain off of crits to do additional effects. If you were to JUST pick Precision, but not have any matching traits, then you'd be gimping yourself. One is damage oriented (Power), while the other is condition oriented, which leads towards things like extra control and extra support.
Toughness and Vitality actually theoretically function differently as well, though apparently they've decided the difference isn't enough, which is why they're reiterating the style they were using. Still, it reminds me of the difference in most games between dodging attacks or being able to take more hits (Like a Ninja vs. a Paladin in FFXI, or an AGI knight vs. a VIT knight in RO). It also makes a big difference when it comes to how you deal with armor-ignoring abilities. Still, apparently Arenanet agrees that those two are too close together, because they're going to be iterated again.
Also, in this game, mana is almost a purely defensive pool, so mana pool/regen actually affects how much you can dodge roll/heal more than attacks. Raising that mostly appears like it would just be a boost of defense (Like the other two stats that do that)
Two things that are game stats in many MMORPGs (Chance to hit and chance to dodge) have changed from game stats into something actually left in the hands of the player. Still, that's two stats that simply because of the combat engine change, don't really make sense.
There can be arguments made that the GW2 attribute system is simpler than systems from other games(Of course it's true. Just a good look at the system used for Cyberpunk P&P RPG, just off the top of my head...), but it's not any simpler than the previous 6 stat system Arenanet was using. Some people seem to think that by moving from 6 -> 4, they're dumbing down, but they haven't changed their OWN level of complexity, so far as I can tell.
In that case they've went to 3 stats: DPS, Trait Proc Rate and EHP. That's provided that there's traits out there that have effects that do more then just damage/defense.
The burning example could easily be reduced to DPS. If every attack has an A% chance to do B damage over C seconds and I can use it every D seconds then I can easily calculate wether power or precision adds more DPS. I'd have to do a bit more complex calculation to take into account that a target may already be burning when I set it on fire but the end result is only damage.
Even a healing trait could be reduced to EHP. If it procs for A health every B seconds on average that means in a fight of C seconds I'm getting A*(C/B) EHP extra.
Energy and such can however not be simply reduced to DPS/EHP even though it can be used to increase either. Thing is that in a short fight energy is irrelevant. In a longer fight it becomes relevant. So increasing energy over power may increase your long term DPS but decrease your short term burst. So there's interaction between energy and DPS but they're not the same variable.
It may not have simplified the older ANet system but it does simplify the systems most MMOs use. Wether this is good or bad depends on the player, but it is a simplification. There's simply less unique variables.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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So... do you think that means the raising the defense stat will boost your mana pool or what? I can't fathom power (what intelligence got dropped for) increasing it... I never played GW1 so maybe I'm missing something, but it just looks like from the descriptions in the article that this setup would favor melee characters more - where's the "wisdom" stat that increases MP/regen?
Well, there's no mana pool, it's just generic 'energy' that's shared between all classes (Makes more sense that a warrior uses energy, I suppose). Right now, with the new stats, it doesn't look like any of them actually increase the energy pool
Given that, here's an interesting question for you to think about. What's the point to having a bigger energy pool for casters vs. melee? I'm curious what your answer is.
I see, that makes more sense and I'm actually excited to play a caster that uses something other than mana.
I just assumed mana would be used because of the "Mage" preconception. As to your question, I think it at least used to be safe to say (before wow raid dps) that casters hit harder. Their spells ignored armor, and they were able to spam aoe's that would tear things apart, but not be able to maintain the onslaught as long as other classes.
Furthermore, if the mage runs out of mana (or in this case, energy), he stops and gets it back somehow via skills or drinking or w/e... if the tank runs out of energy and is no longer able to taunt or keep up threat, the whole group is pretty much screwed.
Also, for a mage, it's energy pool (at least in past games) has been its only way to survive and kill things. Whereas a melee class can still whack things with their sword for base dmg if they run out of energy, a caster is a sitting duck if he/she runs out. This would be one reason to make their pools a tad larger, though, I have no idea what the mechanics of 'energy' are...
If it regens super fast like focus or energy in other games than maybe it's all moot and no one will be able to "spam" abilities without running out right away, which I think would be a shame.
Dodging seems to take more energy than normal skills, and defensive skills take more energy than offensive skills. So...
For Lyssa's sake, doesn't anyone pay attention? Why is the hell are you considering calculating dps? You're not going to be a dps character! There will pretty much be no 'plant and pew-pew' fights, therefore any dps calculations are invalid. Period. You'll be snaring enemies, changing position often, helping allies, etc.
FORGET DPS.
You all are so ingrained in the archaic trinity system that you're stuck thinking like that even though you know better. Think! Crits, for example, apply conditions. OK, what are you trying to do... add a little extra control? OK, choose to apply cripples on crits. Add a little damage, add burning. Increase your crit over your raw power. Maybe you'd rather go a little more raw power over crit, well so be it. But trying to calculate (or imagine you can) dps in a game with no dps role? Insanity. You can't do it.
Hang on, someone put a firewall up, I'm going to go use a cross-combo and spread a hunk a burnin' love...
Oderint, dum metuant.
You guys look waaaay too deep into stats. Anet made this decision based on THEIR combat system. Tell me.. in what other MMO, that has more attributes, do you change your role (from healer/support to dps if you really need a trinity example) on the fly like in GW2? If any.. how does it work for them?
Read the blog post. Making more attributes does NOT work for GW2 if they want people to do this, because players would be deprived of damage if they had to distribute points into other attributes. Consequently making all characters pigeonholed into either melee or ranged.
Besides, the article says they're still changing the att. system so I got a feeling this whole discussion is going to be for nothing in a few weeks.
Eat me!
And that is trying to compete with SWTOR? Haha how about 1 stat for all the scrubs who cant play.
There is 4 stats. lets assume that specialization is worth it, and is not ruined by getting to good +ALL stats items.(remember crafting?) and not by having to little overall effeckt.
if you specialise in only 1 stat, your strength and weaknesses is going to be pretty obvius.
But if we look at 2 stats there is 6 combos. And they cater for some very different play styles
thesse are
1) a toughness + vitality combo as pure defense ( this could be the Frontline control/called tank in the old days )
2) a power + precission as outright damage (max damage)
3) power + vitality for take and give big hits (boss fight ? or old school grind)
4)power + toughness for grinding multiple mobs
5)precission+toughness that aims at surviving alot of small hits while controlling or damage (multiple) mobs with special effeckts
6)precission + vitality that aims at surviving big hits long enough to get special effects to shine.
Its up to ArenaNet too ensure that all thesse combos have their place in the game. By making different encounters where the same 1 setup isn't always the best. I trust they will do that.
But beside that there is also the scalling effects
I can imagine so far that the scaling of monsters based on the numbers of players , will influence the choices alot from a min /max viewpoint. When monsters gets more hitpoint, then conditions on them last longer making stacked effeckts geetting there full potential. When they unlock new skills aswell as spawn bigger groups, the desireble defense might change.
Scaling players up and down based on the area lvl could make some choices more desireble than other! (go for choice 1 if you are the weak link in a group! and properly choice 2 if you are 3 lvl above the area and the rest).
I think there is plenty to work with here for min/maxers, (hopefully for a long time!), plenty to play with for explorers, and interesting stuff for PvP'ers, and alot of stuff for socialisers to educate each other in.
and with the bonus that stats does make sense on drops. Whats not to like ?
I don't see a inherrent problem with this system design, but it stand and falls with its implementations. Done well and this might be the first MMO where stats will catch my interest! Done bad and they could have keept GW1 statsystem
The key is to be able to feel the differense between toughness and vitality, and between precission and power , if that is achived then it opens for some interesting setups.
Reading through this I laugh, like several of the other posters who seem to get it, at the rest of you for your short sightedness and tunnel vision. All the lack of depth that having few stats is hog wash. Look at any MMO out there with stats and you will see "cookie cutter" builds in each of them. They are all min/maxed, often to the point that anyone who attempts to be a "jack of all trade" is gimped. Roles become defined by the min/max or vice versa and all depth goes out the window.
GW2 doesn't have "roles"; Every profession is a "jack of all trades". So how would putting a complex stat system help? All it would do is direct people into "roles" thus gimping them selves. It is like the reverse of any MMO you have played.
Professions are geared toward playstyle, not role. It is about the feel of the profession and the means by which they move from role to role. Look at ANets examples, and you can clearly see why they need a simpler system to allow for greater depth of play. They don't want you to limit your self to a specific role because it you do you will fail. Your value goes down as you specialize in this game and that is why they have worked so hard to create systems that give you flexability at any given moment.
Might I also add, you are simply looking at the Attribute System and are failing to take into account the rest of the systems that impact character. Race, Profession, Weapon, Traits. All of these have various options to modify how you play. Race and profession give you multiple options for abilities, more than you can put on your bar, giving a plethra of build options. Each profession has access to a multitude of weapons, each with their own abilities, giving you another choice to make on what abilities to have. Traits modify any of the above abilities, often in ways that are not simply statistical (ie increase direct damage), lending to even more depth. Stats aren't the only thing your character is defined by, if anything it is the least defining thing.
SWTOR doesn't need to streamline anything especially when WoW has done it for them hehe.
This is not a game.
Blah blahblah, dumbing down or not, there is no telling till you tried it. And that goes in line with my thoughts of GW2 - I dont care about the hd graphics and awesome animations, it can be the best game ever and it can also be the worst, the game mechanics will decide it all, and you cant tell till you tried it.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
I'll just add my own 2 cents here. I doubt you're dodging shots in PvP, so you can stay as the glass cannon and prepare your asshole, because I'll wager thieves and rangers will rape your ass so hard that your asshole won't need to stretch to poop ever again.
"i have a lvl 26 maplestory warrior lvl 9 asda story archer and a adventure quest mage lvl 15 and my xfire is my bro's"
lol oops, pressed Enter too soon ><.
What I was going to say is that character statistics (str, end/sta/con, int, agi, etc) are a staple in most "deeper" RPGs and MMOs. That explains the more intense discussion here, at least in part. There is far more to the customization, progression, and usefulness of a character, however, and I think ArenaNet is seeing that and making changes to the genre that accomodate the playstyle they are working towards. If GW2 was similar in stats and alternate advancement as a game like, say, EQ, it could not fit the mold of casual gameplay like they've been striving for since GW1. If they did try to implement the old school-style attributes and such, they would have to make their game fit the genre's requirements. As we saw with GW1, they don't seem to be interested in fitting their games into a specific, existing place. That's a good thing - but the qualifier for the success of GW2 is that they make the RPG elements mesh with the gameplay and character development from beginning to end.
I will be reactivating Rift here in a few days as that game is a blast for me, but I am anticipating GW2. They made a solid, balanced, PvP and casual PvE experience on GW1. I hope they can make GW2 the evolution of that.
insanex
I read an interview about how the stats are going to be less RNG based, always sucked in other games to for example die because you didn't dodge at the correct moment, in GW2 dodge is 100% if you use the ability so it's always your own fault instead of "bad luck".
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