I am a huge Star Wars fan in general and I was extremely excited when it was announced Bioware (one of my favourite developers since the balders gate days) would be making an MMO based on their old republic universe (I loved both KOTOR games).
That said as time has gone on and more and more content has been released I have grown less & less interested. Everything we have seen so far I find really underwhelming, space combat is probably hands down the worst thing since its going to end up like an old arcade shooter game as a space flight subgame.....
I dunno, I like what they have visually and I like the sound of the questing but everything else sounds tired and mediocre. So my Enthusiasm for this game is definitely wavering. I finally Quit AoC mid February having played since pre-launch and was thinking maybe a break from MMO's in general might re-ignite my enthusiasm for SWTOR but it has not and I can only put that down to the very underwhelming information we have so far.
Great Intro/trailer but everything appears to go downhill from there.
Well I stated that OTHER than FLUFF their is nothing substantial to separate this game from WOW and how do some of you defend that it does by stating the Fluff and saying that the fluff is not really fluff to validate the WOW clone.
But voiceover, is fluff, the quest system is fluff, graphics are fluff, animations, fluff and so on and so forth. Space combat you say, well honesly TOR has no space combat, it has an instanced rail system which is basically gonna be like a deeprun tram with guns, so its really bad fluff. Truthfully none of you know one single substantial thing that makes the game any differant from WOW other than it Is Star Wars. Your heartfelt responses full of your wrong this and you dont see what I see remarks cant change that. Most of the mmorpg playing world including mostly this very site recognize this game for the obvious wow clone it is. I think expecting anything else is indicative that you have not been on the official forums for very long.
Actually, most everything listed proves it isn't a WoW clone. Clone means, exactly alike, and every system you mentioned is different. Including the combat, which is different. Hiding behind boxes, using the environment to plan an attack on opponents, being able to roll in or out of cover, WoW doesn't have that. Not to mention, NO auto attack. TOR has a much more varied skill system than WoW, allowing you to spec most characters in 3 to 4 directions, all extremely different.
Then you say the voiceovers are fluff, but you completely miss out the reason that the voiceovers are there, which is the entire underlying story driven mechanic for quest progression. It gives you choices on every mission you take, with multiple ways to complete said missions, and multiple responses depending on who is with you. WoW doesn't have that kind of progression, in fact, no MMO coming out in the near future has something to the level of what SWTOR is offering.
I could go on, and continue picking out differences, but it isn't necessary. You can't see past the word "clone" and everything stated just falls by the wayside while you find a new way to spin it so that you somehow don't have to see the truth that every last one of the features are different and improved upon.
When Star Wars came out, episode 4, it revolutionized the movie industry; when TOR will come out, it will be just like WoW with a Star Fox shooter game in it.
It is going to be an "on the rails" game which is more than abundantly clear from all the info and hints we got from the devs.
A few more sentences:
"And why would that be a bad thing?" you might ask. "Some of the best games recently have been on the rails - God of War, Dragon Age..."
Well it wouldn't be a bad thing at all if SWTOR weren't supposed to be a subscription-based mmo. On the rails, concentrated, directed content is great if you are following the console/single player model.. You buy the box, you play the box through several times, get bored and... buy another box! That's how things work in that market. A subscription-based game that is supposed to give you customer satisfaction for months and even years cannot follow that one-off easily discarded model with respect to its design.
The solution for low retention rates of recent mmos is NOT to shovel even more railroaded story in them.. but to build the game on another premise that does not rely on one-off story playthrough. It's like you're trying to put out fire by pouring more gasoline on it - the more interesting and concentrated story is, the more players depend on it for their enjoyment of the game. And what happens when you run out of story and your players have grown to depend it as the sole reason they play the game?
Providing more and more story content just postpones the inevitable at a sharply increasing cost and actually makes the fall even harder when it comes. Which mmos have the longest retention rates? Those that specifically DO NOT rely on story. EVE online for example.. and even WoW where the "endgame" (which is actually "the game" where players spend the vast majority of their time and money) does NOT depend on "story" but non-linear, cyclic content such as PvP and raids.
In short: I think they got their basic concept all wrong. I'm sure that the execution of the game is going to be something marvellous to behold and probably one of the best games EVER... for as long as it lasts. Which makes it even more sad in my eyes.. all those resources and talent will get burned on the altar of "playthrough" gameplay. It's just sad really.
Previously, everyone was saying Star Wars(Win) + Bioware(Win) = Win
Now, it's Star Wars(Win) + Bioware(Fail) = Meh.
Plus the release date pushback killed my enthusiasm a lot.
Of yes of course. Because Dragon Age 2, (development time 2 years) is made by Bioware and was lacklustre, SWTOR, (development time 5 years+), must by default fail as well.
I love the way some of you guys minds work, cracks me up every time.
It is going to be an "on the rails" game which is more than abundantly clear from all the info and hints we got from the devs.
A few more sentences:
"And why would that be a bad thing?" you might ask. "Some of the best games recently have been on the rails - God of War, Dragon Age..."
Well it wouldn't be a bad thing at all if SWTOR weren't supposed to be a subscription-based mmo. On the rails, concentrated, directed content is great if you are following the console/single player model.. You buy the box, you play the box through several times, get bored and... buy another box! That's how things work in that market. A subscription-based game that is supposed to give you customer satisfaction for months and even years cannot follow that one-off easily discarded model with respect to its design.
The solution for low retention rates of recent mmos is NOT to shovel even more railroaded story in them.. but to build the game on another premise that does not rely on one-off story playthrough. It's like you're trying to put out fire by pouring more gasoline on it - the more interesting and concentrated story is, the more players depend on it for their enjoyment of the game. And what happens when you run out of story and your players have grown to depend it as the sole reason they play the game?
Providing more and more story content just postpones the inevitable at a sharply increasing cost and actually makes the fall even harder when it comes. Which mmos have the longest retention rates? Those that specifically DO NOT rely on story. EVE online for example.. and even WoW where the "endgame" (which is actually "the game" where players spend the vast majority of their time and money) does NOT depend on "story" but non-linear, cyclic content such as PvP and raids.
In short: I think they got their basic concept all wrong. I'm sure that the execution of the game is going to be something marvellous to behold and probably one of the best games EVER... for as long as it lasts. Which makes it even more sad in my eyes.. all those resources and talent will get burned on the altar of "playthrough" gameplay. It's just sad really.
You do know that the end game raids in WOW are ALL related to the story and even then your arguement is flawed because SWTOR is going to have both end game raids and PVP.
What change of mood? I still look at SWTOR as a chance to play more KOTOR. But this time also together with my friends. If it turns out to have good mmo features too, its just a nice bonus for me. This is also why the crappy space addition is not much of a problem to me.
What others assume about SWTOR doesnt matter to me. Well, except if it are uninformed retarded remarks, but then I would react regardless of what game the thread is about.
Noooope, Lucas arts wouldn't let them compete with SWG. Contrary to popular beliefs; SWG is still alive! LA doesn't want to step on toes.
SWTOR was announced in 2008. The Austin studio was filled in late 2005, around the same time the project was greenlit. 2006 the Heroengine was licensed.
Both games are in different timeframes within the universe, so even if SOE complained they don't have full control over all permetations of the Star Wars universe. Licenses don't work that way.
Well I stated that OTHER than FLUFF their is nothing substantial to separate this game from WOW and how do some of you defend that it does by stating the Fluff and saying that the fluff is not really fluff to validate the WOW clone.
But voiceover, is fluff, the quest system is fluff, graphics are fluff, animations, fluff and so on and so forth. Space combat you say, well honesly TOR has no space combat, it has an instanced rail system which is basically gonna be like a deeprun tram with guns, so its really bad fluff. Truthfully none of you know one single substantial thing that makes the game any differant from WOW other than it Is Star Wars. Your heartfelt responses full of your wrong this and you dont see what I see remarks cant change that. Most of the mmorpg playing world including mostly this very site recognize this game for the obvious wow clone it is. I think expecting anything else is indicative that you have not been on the official forums for very long.
Since you obviously ignored what I said ......
Based on raiding and gear grinding, Check
Nope. It's a feature, but it's not all about gear grinding.
Uses a WOW talent Tree, check.
WOW isn't the only game that has talent trees. Plus if you had actually done any research on this game you would know that the talent trees in TOR are much more diverse than WOW. The Bounty Hunter class alone leaves you the option of being a tank,dps or healer.
WOW combat system, check.
ZZZTTT! Wrong again. Combat is nothing like WOW. I don't remember being able to take cover or fire from the corner of walls in WOW.
Childike graphics, check.
Nope. Art style isn't photorealistic but you must be blind to think that TOR looks like WOW.
Battlegrounds, check.
And? What's so bad about having battlegrounds?
WOW UI clone, check.
Wow, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if you have to use the UI to justify your point.
Holy Trinity CHECK
Which is a common feature in themepark games. Once again if you had done any actual research on this game you would know that system is different in TOR because not all classes will be alike.
As a matter of fact its easier to show that it is a WOW clone than it is to prove that its not. Honestly anything more than the fact that it is Star Wars, has voiceover and and Fluff it might have is needed here. The only thing it can say it does that wow doesnt is all fluff thats totally meaningless.
So let's run down what you consider fluff ....
- Voiceovers. I don't know about you, but I much prefer getting my missions from a character that actually seems alive rather than a motionless NPC that only displays walls of text. I consider that an improvment.
-Leveling.This renders your whole "WOW clone " argument moot because leveling is completely different in TOR. You can level doing the missions or PVP if you like. If you do the missions your character will have so many options in their interaction with others that few high end characters will be alike. A sith warrior could choose to follow his masters' orders, kill him or go undercover as a light side character. This is not fluff.This is the most important part of the game because a lot of time is spent leveling your character and if that process is boring the game fails.
-Crafting- not even in the same ballpark as WOW. I no longer have to sit there and watch a bar. I can actually have my companions do all that while I'm working on something else. Devs have specifically said that crafted items will be on par with looted. So what were you saying again about the game being gear based?
-Housing- WOW is 6 years old and still has no housing. TOR has housing. Even your SWG cult should appreciate that.
-Space- WOW has no space. TOR does with ships with lots of interiors.
-Worlds- How many worlds does WOW have? Oh that's right, just one. TOR has 17 worlds with most of them being larger than any ever seen in an MMORPG.
I could go on but I think I've made my point. If you still think this is a WOW clone then I suggest you go back to school and learn the definition of clone.
Leveling,crafting,housing,worlds and voiceovers are not just fluff. Maybe they aren't important to you because you want the genre to stay stuck in the past . I don't want it to stay stuck in the past and I refuse to pay for any game that does. Your points have been well refuted by people who have actually followed this game. If you don't want to play this game that's fine. But don't try and paint this game as a WOW clone because you will get busted every time.
By the way, I've been on the official forums for the last two years. The majority there are looking forward to this game. Sorry, but very few want to play in your sandbox.
It is going to be an "on the rails" game which is more than abundantly clear from all the info and hints we got from the devs.
A few more sentences:
"And why would that be a bad thing?" you might ask. "Some of the best games recently have been on the rails - God of War, Dragon Age..."
Well it wouldn't be a bad thing at all if SWTOR weren't supposed to be a subscription-based mmo. On the rails, concentrated, directed content is great if you are following the console/single player model.. You buy the box, you play the box through several times, get bored and... buy another box! That's how things work in that market. A subscription-based game that is supposed to give you customer satisfaction for months and even years cannot follow that one-off easily discarded model with respect to its design.
The solution for low retention rates of recent mmos is NOT to shovel even more railroaded story in them.. but to build the game on another premise that does not rely on one-off story playthrough. It's like you're trying to put out fire by pouring more gasoline on it - the more interesting and concentrated story is, the more players depend on it for their enjoyment of the game. And what happens when you run out of story and your players have grown to depend it as the sole reason they play the game?
Providing more and more story content just postpones the inevitable at a sharply increasing cost and actually makes the fall even harder when it comes. Which mmos have the longest retention rates? Those that specifically DO NOT rely on story. EVE online for example.. and even WoW where the "endgame" (which is actually "the game" where players spend the vast majority of their time and money) does NOT depend on "story" but non-linear, cyclic content such as PvP and raids.
In short: I think they got their basic concept all wrong. I'm sure that the execution of the game is going to be something marvellous to behold and probably one of the best games EVER... for as long as it lasts. Which makes it even more sad in my eyes.. all those resources and talent will get burned on the altar of "playthrough" gameplay. It's just sad really.
You do know that the end game raids in WOW are ALL related to the story and even then your arguement is flawed because SWTOR is going to have both end game raids and PVP.
Maybe, but all I'm hearing from Bioware is STORY. That does not bode well because imo it places a very strong emphasis on something which is, i believe, quite secondary to a mmo's success especially with regards to longevity. I might be wrong but on the other hand I might turn out to be right.
If you were waiting for a new say, all-terrain vehicle and all you hear from the manufacturers is "it goes 0 to 60 in 4 seconds on a highway!!!"... and that manufacturer is a very well known producer of sports racing cars but never made a jeep... wouldn't you feel a bit sceptical and guarded?
Dragon Age 2 was not very good. It did not live up to the expectations laid out by it's predecessor. It's voice acting bordered on cheesy. Finally, it ended on a anti-climatic, ho-hum note. I suppose we can all agree on that?
{mod edit}
Dragon Age II is Bioware's latest opus, the others all earlier titles, yet you think their latest failure isn't at all reflective of the company's current state? Explain. Dragon Age II was produced under EA's watchful eye, the others were produced independently. Perhaps this is just a coincidence, but it is something to mull over. Finally, to the whiners saying "LoL DA2 has nothing to do with SWTOR!" then you might as well say "LoL SWTOR has nothing to do with any other Bioware games" considering Bioware Austin is more a compilation of post-failure MMO teams conglomorated and rebranded with the Bioware logo and sent out to crank up the hype machine.
Again, I state the fact that I have no ill will towards the game. I am a burnt SW fan of yore, and feel Lucas bastardized the saga with his latest installations, so this is just my personal choice to have nothing to do with this game.
Dragon Age 2 was not very good. It did not live up to the expectations laid out by it's predecessor. It's voice acting bordered on cheesy. Finally, it ended on a anti-climatic, ho-hum note. I suppose we can all agree on that?
{mod edit}
Dragon Age II is Bioware's latest opus, the others all earlier titles, yet you think their latest failure isn't at all reflective of the company's current state? Explain. Dragon Age II was produced under EA's watchful eye, the others were produced independently. Perhaps this is just a coincidence, but it is something to mull over. Finally, to the whiners saying "LoL DA2 has nothing to do with SWTOR!" then you might as well say "LoL SWTOR has nothing to do with any other Bioware games" considering Bioware Austin is more a compilation of post-failure MMO teams conglomorated and rebranded with the Bioware logo and sent out to crank up the hype machine.
Again, I state the fact that I have no ill will towards the game. I am a burnt SW fan of yore, and feel Lucas bastardized the saga with his latest installations, so this is just my personal choice to have nothing to do with this game.
{mod edit}
I can't speak to DA2, as I didn't like the first DA, and honestly, I don't think every game BioWare makes is pure gold, but lets be honest, DA2 may have been disappointing, but it wasn't a BAD game. Mechanically, graphically, and functionally it fared pretty well. I did play the demo, and in comparison to DA:O I liked the combat more in some ways, but I just don't like the DA franchise that much.
I do, however, like the SW IP, though I'm no fanatic about it. What we do know however, is that BioWare does know how to make games, and even the worst of their games were pretty well polished and entertaining to an extent. Everyone needs to make up their own mind on what SWTOR will offer, but those that fail to see what is being shown I can't respect them much for that.
People have their own agendas when trying to defame a game, especially when the game isn't released or has no release date. Saying that the game will be great just because its BioWare and Star Wars shouldn't be an automatic *win* for most people, but I'm sure its in the same avenue as SWTOR not being SWG2 being an automatic fail for other people. We do know BioWare created the first KOTOR game and assisted in the creation of KOTOR2, and that the elements presented in those games have a very strong play with whats going on here... add that to the rest of the information known and I don't think every excited follower should be grouped as being hypocritical.
swtor simply doesnt bring enough of that new new. this is why innovating games like GW2 will always be more interesting to people. Arenanet does almost everything in a different, better way.
swtor has that story thing, and the star wars universe going for it. most people are hyped because it's star wars. everything else just stinks of WoW, and it has disappointed many people. for a star wars IP, the expectations are huge. what im wondering is how they could waste such a great opportunity. they have this amazing universe, but the combat (and probably pvp) will be garbage.
I think the three big appeals to this game are that it is starwars, it plays like WoW, and BioWare made it. So fans of one or two of those three things will be interested in the game.
What? I have some hard problem seeing Han and Chewie as healers....
The trinity thing is the thing I like least with TOR, it is against the lore of the Star wars IP. I never seen any combt healing in any of the movies, not even the ones with Jar jar in them.
QFTFT. another +1 goes to GW2 here. i'll be honest, im huge on sci fi backdrops. ME2, Blade Runner, SW, EVE are some of my favourite things. GW2 is a fantasy setting, but it's done so well that i cant help but to love it. lack of the trinity is one of the main reasons. each class is versatile, and the healing class is becoming an outdated concept. as you mentioned, i just cant immerse myself in something when there's a toon standing on the side, filling up green bars.
in addition, there was no such thing in the SW universe. at least not in combat. MAYBE some powerful sith grandmaster could do it. but smuggler? WTF? further, jedi are at peace with death. they'd rather achieve the state of pure energy (Obi Wan), than fight to preserve a body. therefore the sage is utter garbage.
and healing classes have been ruining pvp forever. im a total Arenanet fanboy and i melt every time someone talks about GW2. it was a brilliant idea - take out the healing class, make every OTHER class more fun as a result.
People have their own agendas when trying to defame a game, especially when the game isn't released or has no release date. Saying that the game will be great just because its BioWare and Star Wars shouldn't be an automatic *win* for most people, but I'm sure its in the same avenue as SWTOR not being SWG2 being an automatic fail for other people. We do know BioWare created the first KOTOR game and assisted in the creation of KOTOR2, and that the elements presented in those games have a very strong play with whats going on here... add that to the rest of the information known and I don't think every excited follower should be grouped as being hypocritical.
My kingdom for a fanboy who hasn't said "SWTOR WILL BE GREAT BECAUSE OF BIOWARE, THEY HAVE SO MANY GOOD GAMES" but when confronted with DAII not being a very good game, responding "SWTOR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DAII"
That aside, I agree with you. DAII is not a bad game, but it is also not a good game. Also, it is their LATEST game, so that should weaken the "Bioware is god" argument that so many people seem to be touting, yet it doesn't. And trust me, I do not condone the SWTOR=/=SWG2=BAD either, there is no excuse for that either.
Bioware DID create KOTOR, but KOTOR was a SP RPG, not an MMORPG. SWTOR would work perfectly fine as a SP RPG (KOTOR 3) and that seems to be the big draw of this game is that it is "many different stories". The rub is, you have to pay a monthly subscription fee for these stories, and if that is really the meat and potatoes of this game, MMORPG was a bad choice. My thoughts are that they are just trying to get a piece of that sustainable income driven MMO market by way of their reputation and IP.
I don't know, just doesn't seem like they are doing enough to interest any typical MMORPG player, and they are just playing off the IP and the hype and hoping something arises out of that organically...
Shrug. Somehow I think that if ME3 is a huge success and even will get all kinds of GOTY awards, those people pointing towards DA2 as the sign of doom and decline of BW will still sing the same song, for the very simple reason that they've convinced themselves that they should hate/dislike BW and that it's on the path of destruction.
On a sidenote, BW also made Neverwinter Nights, one of the games if not the game that from all multiplayer games from all the game companies came closest to an MORPG, as everyone who has played on wellknown player created NWN server worlds can agree upon.
Originally posted by sonoggi
swtor has that story thing, and the star wars universe going for it. most people are hyped because it's star wars. everything else just stinks of WoW, and it has disappointed many people. for a star wars IP, the expectations are huge. what im wondering is how they could waste such a great opportunity. they have this amazing universe, but the combat (and probably pvp) will be garbage.
Things that SWTOR has going for it, well, out of the top of my head:
- it's Star Wars
- Bioware made it, they're good with immersion in their games
- SWTOR will be ideal for altoholics, each class provides a fully unique 200 hrs of Class content, next to all the other content
- SWTOR has Class Quest content that is more than a full KOTOR trilogy, 200 hours per class, so you could say that SWTOR is actually KOTOR 3 to 26. And that's besides the World Quest content that is more than the Class Quest content, the World Arcs and the flashpoints.
- SWTOR is huge, massive. It will easily be more than 3 times as large as WoW vanilla and at least 2 times as large as WoW is now with its expansions included, making it the biggest themepark AAA MMORPG around.
- SWTOR will have crafting that differs significantly from the standard crafting in AAA MMO's.
- besides that, all the other usual MMO features aren't missing, like raids, dungeons (flashpoints), guild stuff (eg guild capital ships), auction house, open world pvp, War zones, etc.
As for the combat, I don't know where you draw the conclusion that combat will be garbage, but so far impressions of the players of the several demos of the last few months were mostly positive about the combat .
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Shrug. Somehow I think that if ME3 is a huge success and even will get all kinds of GOTY awards, those people pointing towards DA2 as the sign of doom and decline of BW will still sing the same song, for the very simple reason that they've convinced themselves that they should hate/dislike BW and that it's on the path of destruction.
On a sidenote, BW also made Neverwinter Nights, one of the games if not the game that from all multiplayer games from all the game companies came closest to an MORPG, as everyone who has played on wellknown player created NWN server worlds can agree upon.
Originally posted by sonoggi
swtor has that story thing, and the star wars universe going for it. most people are hyped because it's star wars. everything else just stinks of WoW, and it has disappointed many people. for a star wars IP, the expectations are huge. what im wondering is how they could waste such a great opportunity. they have this amazing universe, but the combat (and probably pvp) will be garbage.
Things that SWTOR has going for it, well, out of the top of my head:
- it's Star Wars
- Bioware made it, they're good with immersion in their games
- SWTOR will be ideal for altoholics, each class provides a fully unique 200 hrs of Class content, next to all the other content
- SWTOR has Class Quest content that is more than a full KOTOR trilogy, 200 hours per class, so you could say that SWTOR is actually KOTOR 3 to 26. And that's besides the World Quest content that is more than the Class Quest content, the World Arcs and the flashpoints.
- SWTOR is huge, massive. It will easily be more than 3 times as large as WoW vanilla and at least 2 times as large as WoW is now with its expansions included, making it the biggest themepark AAA MMORPG around.
- SWTOR will have crafting that differs significantly from the standard crafting in AAA MMO's.
- besides that, all the other usual MMO features aren't missing, like raids, dungeons (flashpoints), guild stuff (eg guild capital ships), auction house, open world pvp, War zones, etc.
As for the combat, I don't know where you draw the conclusion that combat will be garbage, but so far impressions of the players of the several demos of the last few months were mostly positive about the combat .
Can you please show me this crafting? Last time I asked I was shown a video that told me "your companions can do it" which I wouldn't count as a plus on TOR's side. It just seems to be the perfect cop-out to put in a shitty crafting system to me.
- Bioware made it, they're good with immersion in their games
- SWTOR will be ideal for altoholics, each class provides a fully unique 200 hrs of Class content, next to all the other content
- SWTOR has Class Quest content that is more than a full KOTOR trilogy, 200 hours per class, so you could say that SWTOR is actually KOTOR 3 to 26. And that's besides the World Quest content that is more than the Class Quest content, the World Arcs and the flashpoints.
just wondering ,since when tuberunning is considered as a good thing on mmo games?
-and how fun it will be when repeating it ? as an "altholic" ?
Shrug. Somehow I think that if ME3 is a huge success and even will get all kinds of GOTY awards, those people pointing towards DA2 as the sign of doom and decline of BW will still sing the same song, for the very simple reason that they've convinced themselves that they should hate/dislike BW and that it's on the path of destruction.
On a sidenote, BW also made Neverwinter Nights, one of the games if not the game that from all multiplayer games from all the game companies came closest to an MORPG, as everyone who has played on wellknown player created NWN server worlds can agree upon.
Originally posted by sonoggi
swtor has that story thing, and the star wars universe going for it. most people are hyped because it's star wars. everything else just stinks of WoW, and it has disappointed many people. for a star wars IP, the expectations are huge. what im wondering is how they could waste such a great opportunity. they have this amazing universe, but the combat (and probably pvp) will be garbage.
Things that SWTOR has going for it, well, out of the top of my head:
- it's Star Wars
- Bioware made it, they're good with immersion in their games
- SWTOR will be ideal for altoholics, each class provides a fully unique 200 hrs of Class content, next to all the other content
- SWTOR has Class Quest content that is more than a full KOTOR trilogy, 200 hours per class, so you could say that SWTOR is actually KOTOR 3 to 26. And that's besides the World Quest content that is more than the Class Quest content, the World Arcs and the flashpoints.
- SWTOR is huge, massive. It will easily be more than 3 times as large as WoW vanilla and at least 2 times as large as WoW is now with its expansions included, making it the biggest themepark AAA MMORPG around.
- SWTOR will have crafting that differs significantly from the standard crafting in AAA MMO's.
- besides that, all the other usual MMO features aren't missing, like raids, dungeons (flashpoints), guild stuff (eg guild capital ships), auction house, open world pvp, War zones, etc.
As for the combat, I don't know where you draw the conclusion that combat will be garbage, but so far impressions of the players of the several demos of the last few months were mostly positive about the combat .
Can you please show me this crafting? Last time I asked I was shown a video that told me "your companions can do it" which I wouldn't count as a plus on TOR's side. It just seems to be the perfect cop-out to put in a shitty crafting system to me.
Shrug. Somehow I think that if ME3 is a huge success and even will get all kinds of GOTY awards, those people pointing towards DA2 as the sign of doom and decline of BW will still sing the same song, for the very simple reason that they've convinced themselves that they should hate/dislike BW and that it's on the path of destruction.
On a sidenote, BW also made Neverwinter Nights, one of the games if not the game that from all multiplayer games from all the game companies came closest to an MORPG, as everyone who has played on wellknown player created NWN server worlds can agree upon.
Originally posted by sonoggi
swtor has that story thing, and the star wars universe going for it. most people are hyped because it's star wars. everything else just stinks of WoW, and it has disappointed many people. for a star wars IP, the expectations are huge. what im wondering is how they could waste such a great opportunity. they have this amazing universe, but the combat (and probably pvp) will be garbage.
Things that SWTOR has going for it, well, out of the top of my head:
- it's Star Wars
- Bioware made it, they're good with immersion in their games
- SWTOR will be ideal for altoholics, each class provides a fully unique 200 hrs of Class content, next to all the other content
- SWTOR has Class Quest content that is more than a full KOTOR trilogy, 200 hours per class, so you could say that SWTOR is actually KOTOR 3 to 26. And that's besides the World Quest content that is more than the Class Quest content, the World Arcs and the flashpoints.
- SWTOR is huge, massive. It will easily be more than 3 times as large as WoW vanilla and at least 2 times as large as WoW is now with its expansions included, making it the biggest themepark AAA MMORPG around.
- SWTOR will have crafting that differs significantly from the standard crafting in AAA MMO's.
- besides that, all the other usual MMO features aren't missing, like raids, dungeons (flashpoints), guild stuff (eg guild capital ships), auction house, open world pvp, War zones, etc.
As for the combat, I don't know where you draw the conclusion that combat will be garbage, but so far impressions of the players of the several demos of the last few months were mostly positive about the combat .
Can you please show me this crafting? Last time I asked I was shown a video that told me "your companions can do it" which I wouldn't count as a plus on TOR's side. It just seems to be the perfect cop-out to put in a shitty crafting system to me.
Google it.
I did. All I got was the same video that said "your companions can do it".
- maybe, but it's a themepark. there's nothing dynamic going on. basically, an RPG with other people running around the same area. you can argue about all this PVE content, but from what i've seen (and ive watched all PAX videos), it's not fun. the instance they showcased at PAX didnt play ANY differently than any of WoW's instances. there are regular squishy mobs, slightly tougher ones, and a boss that has a trick to beating it. once u learn this trick, there's no point doing it again.
this is because the combat system is outdated. youre essentially spamming the same abilities over and over again, not dodging, not blocking, not aiming. essentially, you can have over 9000 hours of PVE content and the game can still be boring because AI is never better than a human opponent, and youre repeating the same 1,2,2,3,1 keybinds while watching pretty animations
why is combat garbage
- people who played said it was exactly the same as WoW's. you click on an ability and watch an animation. you have 15+ abilities on your action bar. these aren't good things. MMO's are actually moving away from this, but SWTOR and RIFT are just too outdated and rigid because of how long they've been in production
creating alts
- the need to create alts to enjoy the game isnt a good thing. it's simply an indication that the classes arent deep enough and it's harder to stay interested at end game
Bioware made it
- this is a fairly irrational argument. personally, i only enjoyed ME2 from BW, and thats about it.
it's Star Wars
- maybe, but the classes are weird, STIFF and not representative of the SW universe. smuggler healers? trooper tanks? in every star wars movie/comic/book, troopers fall like flies and are simply fodder for the cooler things.
pvp
- there's next to no info on pvp. from what we know, it will be like WoW. instanced, non-dynamic battlegrounds. we already have a general idea of GW2's open world pvp, and it's much further away from release than swtor. BW has released no such information. pvp in swtor will probably be an afterthought because most of their funding went into voiceovers and other static PVE things.
Comments
In a word dissapointment.
I am a huge Star Wars fan in general and I was extremely excited when it was announced Bioware (one of my favourite developers since the balders gate days) would be making an MMO based on their old republic universe (I loved both KOTOR games).
That said as time has gone on and more and more content has been released I have grown less & less interested. Everything we have seen so far I find really underwhelming, space combat is probably hands down the worst thing since its going to end up like an old arcade shooter game as a space flight subgame.....
I dunno, I like what they have visually and I like the sound of the questing but everything else sounds tired and mediocre. So my Enthusiasm for this game is definitely wavering. I finally Quit AoC mid February having played since pre-launch and was thinking maybe a break from MMO's in general might re-ignite my enthusiasm for SWTOR but it has not and I can only put that down to the very underwhelming information we have so far.
Great Intro/trailer but everything appears to go downhill from there.
Actually, most everything listed proves it isn't a WoW clone. Clone means, exactly alike, and every system you mentioned is different. Including the combat, which is different. Hiding behind boxes, using the environment to plan an attack on opponents, being able to roll in or out of cover, WoW doesn't have that. Not to mention, NO auto attack. TOR has a much more varied skill system than WoW, allowing you to spec most characters in 3 to 4 directions, all extremely different.
Then you say the voiceovers are fluff, but you completely miss out the reason that the voiceovers are there, which is the entire underlying story driven mechanic for quest progression. It gives you choices on every mission you take, with multiple ways to complete said missions, and multiple responses depending on who is with you. WoW doesn't have that kind of progression, in fact, no MMO coming out in the near future has something to the level of what SWTOR is offering.
I could go on, and continue picking out differences, but it isn't necessary. You can't see past the word "clone" and everything stated just falls by the wayside while you find a new way to spin it so that you somehow don't have to see the truth that every last one of the features are different and improved upon.
In one sentence:
When Star Wars came out, episode 4, it revolutionized the movie industry; when TOR will come out, it will be just like WoW with a Star Fox shooter game in it.
One sentence:
It is going to be an "on the rails" game which is more than abundantly clear from all the info and hints we got from the devs.
A few more sentences:
"And why would that be a bad thing?" you might ask. "Some of the best games recently have been on the rails - God of War, Dragon Age..."
Well it wouldn't be a bad thing at all if SWTOR weren't supposed to be a subscription-based mmo. On the rails, concentrated, directed content is great if you are following the console/single player model.. You buy the box, you play the box through several times, get bored and... buy another box! That's how things work in that market. A subscription-based game that is supposed to give you customer satisfaction for months and even years cannot follow that one-off easily discarded model with respect to its design.
The solution for low retention rates of recent mmos is NOT to shovel even more railroaded story in them.. but to build the game on another premise that does not rely on one-off story playthrough. It's like you're trying to put out fire by pouring more gasoline on it - the more interesting and concentrated story is, the more players depend on it for their enjoyment of the game. And what happens when you run out of story and your players have grown to depend it as the sole reason they play the game?
Providing more and more story content just postpones the inevitable at a sharply increasing cost and actually makes the fall even harder when it comes. Which mmos have the longest retention rates? Those that specifically DO NOT rely on story. EVE online for example.. and even WoW where the "endgame" (which is actually "the game" where players spend the vast majority of their time and money) does NOT depend on "story" but non-linear, cyclic content such as PvP and raids.
In short: I think they got their basic concept all wrong. I'm sure that the execution of the game is going to be something marvellous to behold and probably one of the best games EVER... for as long as it lasts. Which makes it even more sad in my eyes.. all those resources and talent will get burned on the altar of "playthrough" gameplay. It's just sad really.
Of yes of course. Because Dragon Age 2, (development time 2 years) is made by Bioware and was lacklustre, SWTOR, (development time 5 years+), must by default fail as well.
I love the way some of you guys minds work, cracks me up every time.
Noooope, Lucas arts wouldn't let them compete with SWG. Contrary to popular beliefs; SWG is still alive! LA doesn't want to step on toes.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
You do know that the end game raids in WOW are ALL related to the story and even then your arguement is flawed because SWTOR is going to have both end game raids and PVP.
In Bioware we trust!
What change of mood? I still look at SWTOR as a chance to play more KOTOR. But this time also together with my friends. If it turns out to have good mmo features too, its just a nice bonus for me. This is also why the crappy space addition is not much of a problem to me.
What others assume about SWTOR doesnt matter to me. Well, except if it are uninformed retarded remarks, but then I would react regardless of what game the thread is about.
SWTOR was announced in 2008. The Austin studio was filled in late 2005, around the same time the project was greenlit. 2006 the Heroengine was licensed.
Both games are in different timeframes within the universe, so even if SOE complained they don't have full control over all permetations of the Star Wars universe. Licenses don't work that way.
Since you obviously ignored what I said ......
Based on raiding and gear grinding, Check
Nope. It's a feature, but it's not all about gear grinding.
Uses a WOW talent Tree, check.
WOW isn't the only game that has talent trees. Plus if you had actually done any research on this game you would know that the talent trees in TOR are much more diverse than WOW. The Bounty Hunter class alone leaves you the option of being a tank,dps or healer.
WOW combat system, check.
ZZZTTT! Wrong again. Combat is nothing like WOW. I don't remember being able to take cover or fire from the corner of walls in WOW.
Childike graphics, check.
Nope. Art style isn't photorealistic but you must be blind to think that TOR looks like WOW.
Battlegrounds, check.
And? What's so bad about having battlegrounds?
WOW UI clone, check.
Wow, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if you have to use the UI to justify your point.
Holy Trinity CHECK
Which is a common feature in themepark games. Once again if you had done any actual research on this game you would know that system is different in TOR because not all classes will be alike.
As a matter of fact its easier to show that it is a WOW clone than it is to prove that its not. Honestly anything more than the fact that it is Star Wars, has voiceover and and Fluff it might have is needed here. The only thing it can say it does that wow doesnt is all fluff thats totally meaningless.
So let's run down what you consider fluff ....
- Voiceovers. I don't know about you, but I much prefer getting my missions from a character that actually seems alive rather than a motionless NPC that only displays walls of text. I consider that an improvment.
-Leveling.This renders your whole "WOW clone " argument moot because leveling is completely different in TOR. You can level doing the missions or PVP if you like. If you do the missions your character will have so many options in their interaction with others that few high end characters will be alike. A sith warrior could choose to follow his masters' orders, kill him or go undercover as a light side character. This is not fluff.This is the most important part of the game because a lot of time is spent leveling your character and if that process is boring the game fails.
-Crafting- not even in the same ballpark as WOW. I no longer have to sit there and watch a bar. I can actually have my companions do all that while I'm working on something else. Devs have specifically said that crafted items will be on par with looted. So what were you saying again about the game being gear based?
-Housing- WOW is 6 years old and still has no housing. TOR has housing. Even your SWG cult should appreciate that.
-Space- WOW has no space. TOR does with ships with lots of interiors.
-Worlds- How many worlds does WOW have? Oh that's right, just one. TOR has 17 worlds with most of them being larger than any ever seen in an MMORPG.
I could go on but I think I've made my point. If you still think this is a WOW clone then I suggest you go back to school and learn the definition of clone.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leveling,crafting,housing,worlds and voiceovers are not just fluff. Maybe they aren't important to you because you want the genre to stay stuck in the past . I don't want it to stay stuck in the past and I refuse to pay for any game that does. Your points have been well refuted by people who have actually followed this game. If you don't want to play this game that's fine. But don't try and paint this game as a WOW clone because you will get busted every time.
By the way, I've been on the official forums for the last two years. The majority there are looking forward to this game. Sorry, but very few want to play in your sandbox.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
EA and space combat on rails but everything else seems ok.
Maybe, but all I'm hearing from Bioware is STORY. That does not bode well because imo it places a very strong emphasis on something which is, i believe, quite secondary to a mmo's success especially with regards to longevity. I might be wrong but on the other hand I might turn out to be right.
If you were waiting for a new say, all-terrain vehicle and all you hear from the manufacturers is "it goes 0 to 60 in 4 seconds on a highway!!!"... and that manufacturer is a very well known producer of sports racing cars but never made a jeep... wouldn't you feel a bit sceptical and guarded?
{mod edit}
Dragon Age 2 was not very good. It did not live up to the expectations laid out by it's predecessor. It's voice acting bordered on cheesy. Finally, it ended on a anti-climatic, ho-hum note. I suppose we can all agree on that?
{mod edit}
Dragon Age II is Bioware's latest opus, the others all earlier titles, yet you think their latest failure isn't at all reflective of the company's current state? Explain. Dragon Age II was produced under EA's watchful eye, the others were produced independently. Perhaps this is just a coincidence, but it is something to mull over. Finally, to the whiners saying "LoL DA2 has nothing to do with SWTOR!" then you might as well say "LoL SWTOR has nothing to do with any other Bioware games" considering Bioware Austin is more a compilation of post-failure MMO teams conglomorated and rebranded with the Bioware logo and sent out to crank up the hype machine.
Again, I state the fact that I have no ill will towards the game. I am a burnt SW fan of yore, and feel Lucas bastardized the saga with his latest installations, so this is just my personal choice to have nothing to do with this game.
{mod edit}
I can't speak to DA2, as I didn't like the first DA, and honestly, I don't think every game BioWare makes is pure gold, but lets be honest, DA2 may have been disappointing, but it wasn't a BAD game. Mechanically, graphically, and functionally it fared pretty well. I did play the demo, and in comparison to DA:O I liked the combat more in some ways, but I just don't like the DA franchise that much.
I do, however, like the SW IP, though I'm no fanatic about it. What we do know however, is that BioWare does know how to make games, and even the worst of their games were pretty well polished and entertaining to an extent. Everyone needs to make up their own mind on what SWTOR will offer, but those that fail to see what is being shown I can't respect them much for that.
People have their own agendas when trying to defame a game, especially when the game isn't released or has no release date. Saying that the game will be great just because its BioWare and Star Wars shouldn't be an automatic *win* for most people, but I'm sure its in the same avenue as SWTOR not being SWG2 being an automatic fail for other people. We do know BioWare created the first KOTOR game and assisted in the creation of KOTOR2, and that the elements presented in those games have a very strong play with whats going on here... add that to the rest of the information known and I don't think every excited follower should be grouped as being hypocritical.
swtor simply doesnt bring enough of that new new. this is why innovating games like GW2 will always be more interesting to people. Arenanet does almost everything in a different, better way.
swtor has that story thing, and the star wars universe going for it. most people are hyped because it's star wars. everything else just stinks of WoW, and it has disappointed many people. for a star wars IP, the expectations are huge. what im wondering is how they could waste such a great opportunity. they have this amazing universe, but the combat (and probably pvp) will be garbage.
I think the three big appeals to this game are that it is starwars, it plays like WoW, and BioWare made it. So fans of one or two of those three things will be interested in the game.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
It just depends on what you consider still alive to mean.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
QFTFT. another +1 goes to GW2 here. i'll be honest, im huge on sci fi backdrops. ME2, Blade Runner, SW, EVE are some of my favourite things. GW2 is a fantasy setting, but it's done so well that i cant help but to love it. lack of the trinity is one of the main reasons. each class is versatile, and the healing class is becoming an outdated concept. as you mentioned, i just cant immerse myself in something when there's a toon standing on the side, filling up green bars.
in addition, there was no such thing in the SW universe. at least not in combat. MAYBE some powerful sith grandmaster could do it. but smuggler? WTF? further, jedi are at peace with death. they'd rather achieve the state of pure energy (Obi Wan), than fight to preserve a body. therefore the sage is utter garbage.
and healing classes have been ruining pvp forever. im a total Arenanet fanboy and i melt every time someone talks about GW2. it was a brilliant idea - take out the healing class, make every OTHER class more fun as a result.
My kingdom for a fanboy who hasn't said "SWTOR WILL BE GREAT BECAUSE OF BIOWARE, THEY HAVE SO MANY GOOD GAMES" but when confronted with DAII not being a very good game, responding "SWTOR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DAII"
That aside, I agree with you. DAII is not a bad game, but it is also not a good game. Also, it is their LATEST game, so that should weaken the "Bioware is god" argument that so many people seem to be touting, yet it doesn't. And trust me, I do not condone the SWTOR=/=SWG2=BAD either, there is no excuse for that either.
Bioware DID create KOTOR, but KOTOR was a SP RPG, not an MMORPG. SWTOR would work perfectly fine as a SP RPG (KOTOR 3) and that seems to be the big draw of this game is that it is "many different stories". The rub is, you have to pay a monthly subscription fee for these stories, and if that is really the meat and potatoes of this game, MMORPG was a bad choice. My thoughts are that they are just trying to get a piece of that sustainable income driven MMO market by way of their reputation and IP.
I don't know, just doesn't seem like they are doing enough to interest any typical MMORPG player, and they are just playing off the IP and the hype and hoping something arises out of that organically...
Shrug. Somehow I think that if ME3 is a huge success and even will get all kinds of GOTY awards, those people pointing towards DA2 as the sign of doom and decline of BW will still sing the same song, for the very simple reason that they've convinced themselves that they should hate/dislike BW and that it's on the path of destruction.
On a sidenote, BW also made Neverwinter Nights, one of the games if not the game that from all multiplayer games from all the game companies came closest to an MORPG, as everyone who has played on wellknown player created NWN server worlds can agree upon.
Things that SWTOR has going for it, well, out of the top of my head:
- it's Star Wars
- Bioware made it, they're good with immersion in their games
- SWTOR will be ideal for altoholics, each class provides a fully unique 200 hrs of Class content, next to all the other content
- SWTOR has Class Quest content that is more than a full KOTOR trilogy, 200 hours per class, so you could say that SWTOR is actually KOTOR 3 to 26. And that's besides the World Quest content that is more than the Class Quest content, the World Arcs and the flashpoints.
- SWTOR is huge, massive. It will easily be more than 3 times as large as WoW vanilla and at least 2 times as large as WoW is now with its expansions included, making it the biggest themepark AAA MMORPG around.
- SWTOR will have crafting that differs significantly from the standard crafting in AAA MMO's.
- besides that, all the other usual MMO features aren't missing, like raids, dungeons (flashpoints), guild stuff (eg guild capital ships), auction house, open world pvp, War zones, etc.
As for the combat, I don't know where you draw the conclusion that combat will be garbage, but so far impressions of the players of the several demos of the last few months were mostly positive about the combat .
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Can you please show me this crafting? Last time I asked I was shown a video that told me "your companions can do it" which I wouldn't count as a plus on TOR's side. It just seems to be the perfect cop-out to put in a shitty crafting system to me.
just wondering ,since when tuberunning is considered as a good thing on mmo games?
-and how fun it will be when repeating it ? as an "altholic" ?
Generation P
Google it.
I did. All I got was the same video that said "your companions can do it".
world is huge
- maybe, but it's a themepark. there's nothing dynamic going on. basically, an RPG with other people running around the same area. you can argue about all this PVE content, but from what i've seen (and ive watched all PAX videos), it's not fun. the instance they showcased at PAX didnt play ANY differently than any of WoW's instances. there are regular squishy mobs, slightly tougher ones, and a boss that has a trick to beating it. once u learn this trick, there's no point doing it again.
this is because the combat system is outdated. youre essentially spamming the same abilities over and over again, not dodging, not blocking, not aiming. essentially, you can have over 9000 hours of PVE content and the game can still be boring because AI is never better than a human opponent, and youre repeating the same 1,2,2,3,1 keybinds while watching pretty animations
why is combat garbage
- people who played said it was exactly the same as WoW's. you click on an ability and watch an animation. you have 15+ abilities on your action bar. these aren't good things. MMO's are actually moving away from this, but SWTOR and RIFT are just too outdated and rigid because of how long they've been in production
creating alts
- the need to create alts to enjoy the game isnt a good thing. it's simply an indication that the classes arent deep enough and it's harder to stay interested at end game
Bioware made it
- this is a fairly irrational argument. personally, i only enjoyed ME2 from BW, and thats about it.
it's Star Wars
- maybe, but the classes are weird, STIFF and not representative of the SW universe. smuggler healers? trooper tanks? in every star wars movie/comic/book, troopers fall like flies and are simply fodder for the cooler things.
pvp
- there's next to no info on pvp. from what we know, it will be like WoW. instanced, non-dynamic battlegrounds. we already have a general idea of GW2's open world pvp, and it's much further away from release than swtor. BW has released no such information. pvp in swtor will probably be an afterthought because most of their funding went into voiceovers and other static PVE things.