In remember that in the 10-20 Defiant zone there is a "secret" hub next to the entrance of Iron Tombs. It involves some group quests that give quite the cheer amount of exp.
And on the other things, I agree and I am happy that MMORPG.com finally acknowledges flaws in a highly hyped game.
The OP is not "MMORPG.com' He is a writer on their forums, but he does not represent "their" viewpoint, as they have no official viewpoint.
The article is clearly "one man's opinion" which you may or may not share.
I did see mention in the replies about these "secret" quests, and while I've run across a few of them, I will confess I did not realize how prevalent they might be.
I'll blame the Rift Devs for this though, with the crappy dehorsing mechanincs and a landscape that is just thick with hostile, easily aggro'd mobs everywhere the game does discourage you from exploring unless you are sure there's an objective worth slogging your way through to explore an area.
Add in the fact that the quest hubs along the path of least resistance more than give you enough experience to properly level and its not surprising that folks are missing these sidebar items. I myself will start looking for them a bit more I know.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In remember that in the 10-20 Defiant zone there is a "secret" hub next to the entrance of Iron Tombs. It involves some group quests that give quite the cheer amount of exp.
And on the other things, I agree and I am happy that MMORPG.com finally acknowledges flaws in a highly hyped game.
The OP is not "MMORPG.com' He is a writer on their forums, but he does not represent "their" viewpoint, as they have no official viewpoint.
The article is clearly "one man's opinion" which you may or may not share.
I did see mention in the replies about these "secret" quests, and while I've run across a few of them, I will confess I did not realize how prevalent they might be.
I'll blame the Rift Devs for this though, with the crappy dehorsing mechanincs and a landscape that is just thick with hostile, easily aggro'd mobs everywhere the game does discourage you from exploring unless you are sure there's an objective worth slogging your way through to explore an area.
Add in the fact that the quest hubs along the path of least resistance more than give you enough experience to properly level and its not surprising that folks are missing these sidebar items. I myself will start looking for them a bit more I know.
I know that Bill is not MMORPG.com, but mostly the posters that post for MMORPG.com aren't critical about games.
okay first off, solo play on any game is boring. I play WoW which did have cinematics and phasing and still it's boring, STO boring, and Lotro a little less boring because the end game solo content for any purpose is Skirmishes (solo dungeons). EVERY game is boring solo so this isn't a reflection on RIFT whomever wrote this needs a wake-up call.
Second, if you don't like crafting and you aren't a crafter by nature then how the heck can you be justified in making commentary on a mechanic you never use??? Rift was nice in the gathering dept because you could get extra parts from armor weapons and creatures for gathering purposes. Something most games dont even do. STO does everything via a stagnant minigame when gathering data LOTRO doesn't even have gathering professions accept for ORE and that is mundane. But seriously if you don't use something in a game don't write about it, you just lose credibility when you do crap like that.
The questing is not that bad. I think its an improvment over WoW system. A lot of there quest sprgression feels more like a guided experence then always get quests here and go over there and kill things to return back to same place to hand them in. Often the quests you pick up have to deal with the area you picked up the quests.
I love the crafting system. Sure its much like crafting in WoW but they did take it to the next level and add some nice twists. Also I have yet to make an item that was usless. I have gotten some really nice drop items and when I do a crafting sesion my player made items are always better.
As for balance, do you want options or do you want cookie cutter classes. The more cookie cutter the classes become the easyer it is to balance. I love the uniqueness of the soul system. Just means you need to be a smart player and buy a build just for PvP and think about what you want your PvP build to be. This system is not for the weak of heart. It takes skill and thought to make a PvP char.
It's an improvement over vanilla WoW maybe, but not Cata WoW. Though there are some nice exceptions like a couple of the university quests, Rift has the same stuff you saw in vanilla, except you return to the same areas more often.
Cata WoW has alot more variance regarding what it takes to complete quests, and what happens after you do. You rebuild a flying machine through a number of quests, then take that machine to complete another objective, for example.
Still others don't ever require you to return. In some cases you can't, because something "catacalysmic" has occurred and your quest giver is gone.
A lot of it is personal preference though.
I know that I and many others found Cataclysms quests to be too linear to the extreme, in that zones were huge quest chains where you couldn't pick and choose at all short of skipping the zone. Additionally the amount of phasing and custscenes were very intrusive to gameplay and causes feelings of being detatched from the game world and put on rails.
Rift doesn't suffer from these issues, which quite honestly I much prefer less "fancy" quest mechanics in favor of not having questing feel overtly rigid.
The questing is not that bad. I think its an improvment over WoW system. A lot of there quest sprgression feels more like a guided experence then always get quests here and go over there and kill things to return back to same place to hand them in. Often the quests you pick up have to deal with the area you picked up the quests.
I love the crafting system. Sure its much like crafting in WoW but they did take it to the next level and add some nice twists. Also I have yet to make an item that was usless. I have gotten some really nice drop items and when I do a crafting sesion my player made items are always better.
As for balance, do you want options or do you want cookie cutter classes. The more cookie cutter the classes become the easyer it is to balance. I love the uniqueness of the soul system. Just means you need to be a smart player and buy a build just for PvP and think about what you want your PvP build to be. This system is not for the weak of heart. It takes skill and thought to make a PvP char.
It's an improvement over vanilla WoW maybe, but not Cata WoW. Though there are some nice exceptions like a couple of the university quests, Rift has the same stuff you saw in vanilla, except you return to the same areas more often.
Cata WoW has alot more variance regarding what it takes to complete quests, and what happens after you do. You rebuild a flying machine through a number of quests, then take that machine to complete another objective, for example.
Still others don't ever require you to return. In some cases you can't, because something "catacalysmic" has occurred and your quest giver is gone.
A lot of it is personal preference though.
I know that I and many others found Cataclysms quests to be too linear to the extreme, in that zones were huge quest chains where you couldn't pick and choose at all short of skipping the zone. Additionally the amount of phasing and custscenes were very intrusive to gameplay and causes feelings of being detatched from the game world and put on rails.
Rift doesn't suffer from these issues, which quite honestly I much prefer less "fancy" quest mechanics in favor of not having questing feel overtly rigid.
I quit WoW because of Cat. Was way to guided. Theme park city. Then WoW went to far with locking talent trees and taking away more freedom. So far I find Rifts 100 time better then Cat. Sure there are some new game problems but the core of whats there is stellar. Thinking back to WoW and what they released with compaired to what Rifts has given at ground level. Rifts wins hands down vrs most MMOs.
the 2 levelling pathways is something that might hurt rift .Once you have levelled 2 characters on the 2 factions you will lose the zeal to do it again since you are going to do it exactly the same way.
They will have to pump in loads of content to keep maxed chars from quitting since rolling an alt more then once= boredom.
In remember that in the 10-20 Defiant zone there is a "secret" hub next to the entrance of Iron Tombs. It involves some group quests that give quite the cheer amount of exp.
And on the other things, I agree and I am happy that MMORPG.com finally acknowledges flaws in a highly hyped game.
The OP is not "MMORPG.com' He is a writer on their forums, but he does not represent "their" viewpoint, as they have no official viewpoint.
The article is clearly "one man's opinion" which you may or may not share.
I did see mention in the replies about these "secret" quests, and while I've run across a few of them, I will confess I did not realize how prevalent they might be.
I'll blame the Rift Devs for this though, with the crappy dehorsing mechanincs and a landscape that is just thick with hostile, easily aggro'd mobs everywhere the game does discourage you from exploring unless you are sure there's an objective worth slogging your way through to explore an area.
Add in the fact that the quest hubs along the path of least resistance more than give you enough experience to properly level and its not surprising that folks are missing these sidebar items. I myself will start looking for them a bit more I know.
I know that Bill is not MMORPG.com, but mostly the posters that post for MMORPG.com aren't critical about games.
Maybe the writers for MMORPG.com enjoy playing the games they write about? (for the most part).
It's possible to spend more time trying to "find the fun" in a new title than looking for ways that you hate it. It's an approach I've taken up recently and I'm happier for it.
I'm still looking for my DAOC2 or new, well made sandbox, but until the day comes that I find such a title I'll enjoy what I can from the titles that are out there. There's fun to be found in all of them if you just look.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lifeless questing: please, write down EXACTLY how should questing look to make you happy. Exactly ... do not bother why they did wrong so you do not like. Do not blame them, give solutions.
I get so sick of this argument.
As soon as I invest millions or tens of millions into a game promising next-gen, I'll consider myself responsible for improving questing.
For now, I'll expect companies to live up to their hype.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Right something good about something people don't care
Write something bad about somthing it opens to door to 'hating for the sake of hating'.
This is what these sites/forums are for: For wild hate and nothing else, when people actally start caring about whats actally said with EVERY side the equalition not just 'I WANT YOU TO HATE THIS WITH ME SO I FEEL IMPORTANT' then people would probly treat everyone with so degree of repect
Right something good about something people don't care
Write something bad about somthing it opens to door to 'hating for the sake of hating'.
This is what these sites/forums are for: For wild hate and nothing else, when people actally start caring about whats actally said with EVERY side the equalition not just 'I WANT YOU TO HATE THIS WITH ME SO I FEEL IMPORTANT' then people would probly treat everyone with so degree of repect
I don't know how well you follow RIFT's reviews or RIFT's forums but the game is wildly popular (for reasons I personally don't understand). Most of MMORPG's reviews of this game aren't just postive, they're good. None may be the official opinion of MMORPG.com but it's clear that the overwhelming (unanimous? Has anyone had a negative overall opinion from the staff?) opinion of the staff finds the game to be a great game.
This same writer's last post was praising 5 things Rift did right.
The dissenters in the forum community, like myself, just can't see what makes the game stand out from the crowd other than better graphics than WoW and good implementation of PQs til the grind gets old (but not the best graphics of recent years' mmo's).
And before you ask, I spend my time talking about a game I don't like because I've nothing else to do. MMOs are disappointing me at the moment. Maybe I am just burned out hard.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Lifeless questing: please, write down EXACTLY how should questing look to make you happy. Exactly ... do not bother why they did wrong so you do not like. Do not blame them, give solutions.
I get so sick of this argument.
As soon as I invest millions or tens of millions into a game promising next-gen, I'll consider myself responsible for improving questing.
For now, I'll expect companies to live up to their hype.
Why?
It's a valid point. There's constant criticism of how "bad" everything is, yet none of the people complaining have a single constructive suggestion as to how it could have been done better.
As for not living up to the hype... you've only yourself to blame for getting sucked into the hype. Trion delivered exactly what it promised, which is a solid MMO that improves on it's predecessors. Personally I enjoy it for what it is, in part because I never expected it to be "perfect", like apparently so many people expect new MMOs to be these days.
It's a valid point. There's constant criticism of how "bad" everything is, yet none of the people complaining have a single constructive suggestion as to how it could have been done better.
As for not living up to the hype... you've only yourself to blame for getting sucked into the hype. Trion delivered exactly what it promised, which is a solid MMO that improves on it's predecessors. Personally I enjoy it for what it is, in part because I never expected it to be "perfect", like apparently so many people expect new MMOs to be these days.
I thought I covered "Why" but once again.. because I really don't know how to express it any other way..
I'm not paid to build games, to develop lore, to live up to someone's marketing. My income has nothing to do with making games. It's the responsibility of those that are paid for this to come up with new and interesting ways to do this when the overwhelming opinion across the genre is "kill 10" is getting old.
It is my fault for believing the hype. A lesson learned. I just haven't been disappointed by an mmo before because my experience list is short but years-long. It includes wow and Final Fantasy XI. I got years of enjoyment out of both before hitting a burnout point in both.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
You can't be serious with that what you said talking of "a defcom" to defend Wow. You must have not red one single post in this Thread, otherwise you would have not said so. I'm sorry for you but this is not being constructive.
Can't believe how People these days have such a huge Loss of Reality when still talking of "defening a Game" and "you only compare to Wow". Either this or just being too young to put 1and1 together. But that's nothing to blame for.
That is life, that you compare with the best. I don't even play Wow for over 4 Years now but still my cognitive abilties are fully working and so I notice that ..uhm.. Wow.. uhm.. is still top nodge.. uhm uhm..
Can someone give me the term how People are called in English who do not want to face Reality and won't accept a (mostly) bigger authority (in this case, the authority is a Big company which produced a MMO loved by Millions of People)? Thanks, English ain't my mother tongue ;-)
/offtopic
Yeah this whole Post was offtopic. But I might be allowed to throw an OT once a Week, am I :-))
This is just sad, that this sites blind support for World of Warcraft puts them into defcom QQ level 5 when a game like RIFT actually starts taking subs away from WOW. Tell you what do a heartfelt essay on the things wrong with Cataclysm compared to the things wrong with RIFT, I guarantee you RIFT will win out on that argument. The game has barely been out, gets more than positive reviews from the people who play it, and guilds that left wow to play it and this site predictably goes on the attack.
My own evaluation of the problems with Wrath, touching on the problems with Cataclysm.
It's a valid point. There's constant criticism of how "bad" everything is, yet none of the people complaining have a single constructive suggestion as to how it could have been done better.
As for not living up to the hype... you've only yourself to blame for getting sucked into the hype. Trion delivered exactly what it promised, which is a solid MMO that improves on it's predecessors. Personally I enjoy it for what it is, in part because I never expected it to be "perfect", like apparently so many people expect new MMOs to be these days.
I thought I covered "Why" but once again.. because I really don't know how to express it any other way..
I'm not paid to build games, to develop lore, to live up to someone's marketing. My income has nothing to do with making games. It's the responsibility of those that are paid for this to come up with new and interesting ways to do this when the overwhelming opinion across the genre is "kill 10" is getting old.
It is my fault for believing the hype. A lesson learned. I just haven't been disappointed by an mmo before because my experience list is short but years-long. It includes wow and Final Fantasy XI. I got years of enjoyment out of both before hitting a burnout point in both.
Well see, that's the difference between constructive criticism, and just plain whining.
It's not your job to design games, but then again if you can't be bothered to offer constructive criticism, why bother saying anything at all?
[Mod Edit]
If you're tired of quest based MMOs, stop playing them, simple as that. There's plenty of other people who are content with Rift the way it is. It's not a 'failure' simply because it doesn't appeal to your personal taste.
Well see, that's the difference between constructive criticism, and just plain whining.
It's not your job to design games, but then again if you can't be bothered to offer constructive criticism, why bother saying anything at all?
[Mod Edit]
If you're tired of quest based MMOs, stop playing them, simple as that. There's plenty of other people who are content with Rift the way it is. It's not a 'failure' simply because it doesn't appeal to your personal taste.
Actually, it doesn't annoy everyone else, it annoys people like you that are fine with the state of things. If you look at this thread, it doesn't annoy the majority of the people posting here. In all fairness, it might annoy the people posting in 5 things right. I'm not hating on RIFT specifically for the lack in improvement of quests. The fault is common among "next gen" games.
The quotes have been provided before where RIFT said it would be next-gen. I expect these people who have used millions of dollars to pay some people to do nothing but think of new ways to change things up, and as we all know, RIFT didn't change things up. Questing is primarily a solo activity but perhaps some games could involve npc teams. Like escort, but escorts are often very helpless, just with high hp pools so they don't die in case you can't taunt all the mobs at once.
You want ideas? Ok.
- Assist quests like the type of escort quests I decribed above, perhaps making you a participant on an NPC team. Every quest shouldn't be like this. Half of them shouldn't, but 5%? Might not be bad. The advantage to this is with decent NPC AI (something games lack in), you could learn something about team play before embarrassing yourself in an unfamiliar game.
- More creative vehicle quests. Some vehicle quests are tedious because of poor vehicle control. I'm glad not every quest in every game is a vehicle quest (I didn't encounter any vehicle quests in RIFT beta but that stopped at 42 and hey, questing is bland, I might have just forgot).
- Make a zone where the questing is like an RTS. The quests are to take down an insurgent faction that is striving to enter the foray. Obviously WoW could and should have done this any time in the last few years since they have the RTS themselves, they don't need to worry about copyright or copyright fees.
- License or pull from the old library some of these companies have access to. Again not every quest, not most quests, and again hopefully in an optional zone so for the people who want to query hoofless zebras, may and still progress correctly.
Licensing the old titles, if it was necessary, and using their elements would do a lot to break up for the repetitiveness.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
I appreciate all the thought going into these posts but the bottom line here is that making questing so interesting that it ISN'T a downside has really yet to happen aside from hybrid MMOFPSs such as Global Agenda. Crafting (In the games I have played: WoW, EVE, Vanguard, Lineage I and II, Mabinogi, Vindictus, Maplestory, Runescape, DC Universe, City of Heroes/Villians/Rogue, Age of Conan, GhostX, Shadowbane, Ace Online, Uncharted Waters, EQ 1/2, WAR and of course RIFT) with the exception of EVE has been stupid item grinding until you DO hit the level cap for your profession. However, I am leveling a character on RIFT (2nd one) while going weaponsmith and armorsmith; it might just because I take my time to soak in the zone but I find myself actually using some of the things I craft from time to time. Don't get me wrong, it's far from perfect with crafting but most games can't say much different.
This is for you veterans out there: I have been slaving over an epic quest chain that has tested my very limits of patience and submission to this game. It's just one insane objective after another and it really is EPIC. Some of you might remember the quests leading up to Thunderfury in WoW or Atiesh's staff... During that time (before burning crusade) the game had things in it that were only in reach of those who were insane enough to try, but these days everything is in reach; pugging the lich king, really? Where is the real sense of achievement? The sort of achievement that shows dedication not obsession - I can strut around in my full BiS [Best in slot] set all I want but sure enough I see several other people doing the same damn thing and it really kills my sense of accomplishment.
I'm ranting and raving - yes; I promise there is a point to all this though... I am more of a PvP person than PvE. I still enjoy PvE very much but when it gets down to the nitty gritty I just prefer being able to test my metal against someone else who hasn't been programmed. All the games I have ever played that include PvP suffer from some sort of imbalance. Having said that is it really fair to smack a game down all that hard when it's doing the best it can? We wanted customization and RIFT freaking delievered it! But then reality began to sink in and the imbalance became more obvious as a concequence of that customization (as the OP said).
T.L.D.R - Questing is hard to make interesting: get over it. Crafting has grinding and probably always will have that factor: live with it. PvP will remain imbalanced in any game that has PvP: try to understand that above all else.
Having gotten that out of my system.. Cheers,
Rassy
umm shadowbane didnt have any quests.. it was a pure and simple grind your guy to top level by killing mobs and then PVP. thats it. and all those games you mentioned pretty much were all released after WOW. you mentioned NONE before WOW. So again... there were MMOs before WOW. you should be more enlightened.
You're kidding right? Let me fill you in
WoW: November 23, 2004
Shadowbane: March 25, 2003
EVE: May 6, 2003
EQ: March 16, 1999
EQ2: November 8, 2004
Runescape: January 4, 2001
Lineage: September 3, 1998
Lineage 2: October 1, 2003 in Korea and April 27, 2004 in USA
In remember that in the 10-20 Defiant zone there is a "secret" hub next to the entrance of Iron Tombs. It involves some group quests that give quite the cheer amount of exp.
And on the other things, I agree and I am happy that MMORPG.com finally acknowledges flaws in a highly hyped game.
The OP is not "MMORPG.com' He is a writer on their forums, but he does not represent "their" viewpoint, as they have no official viewpoint.
The article is clearly "one man's opinion" which you may or may not share.
I did see mention in the replies about these "secret" quests, and while I've run across a few of them, I will confess I did not realize how prevalent they might be.
I'll blame the Rift Devs for this though, with the crappy dehorsing mechanincs and a landscape that is just thick with hostile, easily aggro'd mobs everywhere the game does discourage you from exploring unless you are sure there's an objective worth slogging your way through to explore an area.
Add in the fact that the quest hubs along the path of least resistance more than give you enough experience to properly level and its not surprising that folks are missing these sidebar items. I myself will start looking for them a bit more I know.
I know that Bill is not MMORPG.com, but mostly the posters that post for MMORPG.com aren't critical about games.
That depends on the game. There have been several that have been rather critical. Even big names like SE's FF IVX have seen quite critial reviews(in fact it was hammered by just about every major site I've seen). Over all MikeB and his group have been fairly even handed. But ANY review is simply that persons OPINION. Way too many people seem to forget that.
It's a valid point. There's constant criticism of how "bad" everything is, yet none of the people complaining have a single constructive suggestion as to how it could have been done better.
As for not living up to the hype... you've only yourself to blame for getting sucked into the hype. Trion delivered exactly what it promised, which is a solid MMO that improves on it's predecessors. Personally I enjoy it for what it is, in part because I never expected it to be "perfect", like apparently so many people expect new MMOs to be these days.
I thought I covered "Why" but once again.. because I really don't know how to express it any other way..
I'm not paid to build games, to develop lore, to live up to someone's marketing. My income has nothing to do with making games. It's the responsibility of those that are paid for this to come up with new and interesting ways to do this when the overwhelming opinion across the genre is "kill 10" is getting old.
It is my fault for believing the hype. A lesson learned. I just haven't been disappointed by an mmo before because my experience list is short but years-long. It includes wow and Final Fantasy XI. I got years of enjoyment out of both before hitting a burnout point in both.
NO GAME will EVER live up to the projections, and wild expectations and imaginations that individual gamers bring to it. Its simply not possible. Thats why I call this the One True Game(tm) syndrome. Its easy to sit back and play arm chair Dev, when one isn't aware(or doesn't care) about the complexities and realities involved. MMO client/server suites are some of the most complex apps in existence. The time/talent and experience it takes to just get them to work is mind numbing.
Its much more of an art, than a science at this point. The design process is a LONG sequence of trade offs in terms of time and talent. It can be easy to imagine a new approach, but VERY difficult to craft that. There is also the realities of the market to be considered in this. People go on(and on...) about creating a "better" questing system. Sure, some of that could be done(up to a point, some of the suggestions have been more than a little off the wall). But then we start running into the TLDR(too long didn't read) syndrome.
In many of these cases, WoW and others aren't doing things this way for some random reason. Its because from their experience(data mining, over years) that the overwhelming majority of people WANT things done the way they are. There is also the reality of the more complex things get, the more difficult they are to test(MANY more failure modes). Why go that route(that chews up time and talent) when most people do not want them in the first place?
One of the main things I like about Rift is that its so familiar, That adds to my enjoyment. Its also well polished(which it would be difficult to do with the more odd ball methods advocated by some). Over all to me, its a good game, and thats all I'm looking for.
NO GAME will EVER live up to the projections, and wild expectations and imaginations that individual gamers bring to it. Its simply not possible. Thats why I call this the One True Game(tm) syndrome. Its easy to sit back and play arm chair Dev, when one isn't aware(or doesn't care) about the complexities and realities involved. MMO client/server suites are some of the most complex apps in existence. The time/talent and experience it takes to just get them to work is mind numbing.
Its much more of an art, than a science at this point. The design process is a LONG sequence of trade offs in terms of time and talent. It can be easy to imagine a new approach, but VERY difficult to craft that. There is also the realities of the market to be considered in this. People go on(and on...) about creating a "better" questing system. Sure, some of that could be done(up to a point, some of the suggestions have been more than a little off the wall). But then we start running into the TLDR(too long didn't read) syndrome.
In many of these cases, WoW and others aren't doing things this way for some random reason. Its because from their experience(data mining, over years) that the overwhelming majority of people WANT things done the way they are. There is also the reality of the more complex things get, the more difficult they are to test(MANY more failure modes). Why go that route(that chews up time and talent) when most people do not want them in the first place?
One of the main things I like about Rift is that its so familiar, That adds to my enjoyment. Its also well polished(which it would be difficult to do with the more odd ball methods advocated by some). Over all to me, its a good game, and thats all I'm looking for.
So, you're not looking for the One True Game(tm)?
Something tells me many of the people that frequent these forums might already be aware of that. Repetition for emphasis, eh
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
NO GAME will EVER live up to the projections, and wild expectations and imaginations that individual gamers bring to it. Its simply not possible. Thats why I call this the One True Game(tm) syndrome. Its easy to sit back and play arm chair Dev, when one isn't aware(or doesn't care) about the complexities and realities involved. MMO client/server suites are some of the most complex apps in existence. The time/talent and experience it takes to just get them to work is mind numbing.
The problem is, games are not living up to the projects, and wild expectations and imaginations that developers and marketers endorse and enforce. Most of us are not stupid, we know what hype is but in the games you like, you believe there is reasonable basis for the hype. FFXI wasn't a perfect fit for me but I got my fun out of it, same for WoW and I truly would have gotten the fun out of RIFT if I'd never played Warcraft or any game just like it.
You're right, the talent it takes to make an MMO happen, the millions of lines of code, the gorgeous texutures, is amazing. Stretching the limits of an engine. Planning it so that it will accept later adaptation. It's even more amazing when you strike out and do something unique. You have to make a gameplan from the beginning and make sure that your team of developers and designers stick with it enough that it works in the end.
Its much more of an art, than a science at this point. The design process is a LONG sequence of trade offs in terms of time and talent. It can be easy to imagine a new approach, but VERY difficult to craft that. There is also the realities of the market to be considered in this. People go on(and on...) about creating a "better" questing system. Sure, some of that could be done(up to a point, some of the suggestions have been more than a little off the wall). But then we start running into the TLDR(too long didn't read) syndrome.
Yep, some developers, the creators of a unique experience, are artists. Those behinds clones are as much artists as you or I following a paint by number.
In many of these cases, WoW and others aren't doing things this way for some random reason. Its because from their experience(data mining, over years) that the overwhelming majority of people WANT things done the way they are. There is also the reality of the more complex things get, the more difficult they are to test(MANY more failure modes). Why go that route(that chews up time and talent) when most people do not want them in the first place?
One of the main things I like about Rift is that its so familiar,
And this is why we disagree. This is exactly why I don't like RIFT.. As I said earlier, If I'd never played WoW. I'd love RIFT. I know I would. If I never saw a piece of art before, a copy would be amazing if it was my style of art. Once you've seen the original, the copy just doesn't have the same "ooo factor". (lol I almost said "wow factor", fitting though it may be).
That adds to my enjoyment. Its also well polished(which it would be difficult to do with the more odd ball methods advocated by some). Over all to me, its a good game, and thats all I'm looking for.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
NO GAME will EVER live up to the projections, and wild expectations and imaginations that individual gamers bring to it. Its simply not possible. Thats why I call this the One True Game(tm) syndrome. Its easy to sit back and play arm chair Dev, when one isn't aware(or doesn't care) about the complexities and realities involved. MMO client/server suites are some of the most complex apps in existence. The time/talent and experience it takes to just get them to work is mind numbing.
Its much more of an art, than a science at this point. The design process is a LONG sequence of trade offs in terms of time and talent. It can be easy to imagine a new approach, but VERY difficult to craft that. There is also the realities of the market to be considered in this. People go on(and on...) about creating a "better" questing system. Sure, some of that could be done(up to a point, some of the suggestions have been more than a little off the wall). But then we start running into the TLDR(too long didn't read) syndrome.
In many of these cases, WoW and others aren't doing things this way for some random reason. Its because from their experience(data mining, over years) that the overwhelming majority of people WANT things done the way they are. There is also the reality of the more complex things get, the more difficult they are to test(MANY more failure modes). Why go that route(that chews up time and talent) when most people do not want them in the first place?
One of the main things I like about Rift is that its so familiar, That adds to my enjoyment. Its also well polished(which it would be difficult to do with the more odd ball methods advocated by some). Over all to me, its a good game, and thats all I'm looking for.
So, you're not looking for the One True Game(tm)?
Something tells me many of the people that frequent these forums might already be aware of that. Repetition for emphasis, eh
Its not just history that repeats itself... ^^
The One True Game(tm) is typical of human belief and perception systems. Its a pattern that one can find in many other areas as well.
Comments
The OP is not "MMORPG.com' He is a writer on their forums, but he does not represent "their" viewpoint, as they have no official viewpoint.
The article is clearly "one man's opinion" which you may or may not share.
I did see mention in the replies about these "secret" quests, and while I've run across a few of them, I will confess I did not realize how prevalent they might be.
I'll blame the Rift Devs for this though, with the crappy dehorsing mechanincs and a landscape that is just thick with hostile, easily aggro'd mobs everywhere the game does discourage you from exploring unless you are sure there's an objective worth slogging your way through to explore an area.
Add in the fact that the quest hubs along the path of least resistance more than give you enough experience to properly level and its not surprising that folks are missing these sidebar items. I myself will start looking for them a bit more I know.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What is ROTF?
I know that Bill is not MMORPG.com, but mostly the posters that post for MMORPG.com aren't critical about games.
okay first off, solo play on any game is boring. I play WoW which did have cinematics and phasing and still it's boring, STO boring, and Lotro a little less boring because the end game solo content for any purpose is Skirmishes (solo dungeons). EVERY game is boring solo so this isn't a reflection on RIFT whomever wrote this needs a wake-up call.
Second, if you don't like crafting and you aren't a crafter by nature then how the heck can you be justified in making commentary on a mechanic you never use??? Rift was nice in the gathering dept because you could get extra parts from armor weapons and creatures for gathering purposes. Something most games dont even do. STO does everything via a stagnant minigame when gathering data LOTRO doesn't even have gathering professions accept for ORE and that is mundane. But seriously if you don't use something in a game don't write about it, you just lose credibility when you do crap like that.
A lot of it is personal preference though.
I know that I and many others found Cataclysms quests to be too linear to the extreme, in that zones were huge quest chains where you couldn't pick and choose at all short of skipping the zone. Additionally the amount of phasing and custscenes were very intrusive to gameplay and causes feelings of being detatched from the game world and put on rails.
Rift doesn't suffer from these issues, which quite honestly I much prefer less "fancy" quest mechanics in favor of not having questing feel overtly rigid.
I quit WoW because of Cat. Was way to guided. Theme park city. Then WoW went to far with locking talent trees and taking away more freedom. So far I find Rifts 100 time better then Cat. Sure there are some new game problems but the core of whats there is stellar. Thinking back to WoW and what they released with compaired to what Rifts has given at ground level. Rifts wins hands down vrs most MMOs.
the 2 levelling pathways is something that might hurt rift .Once you have levelled 2 characters on the 2 factions you will lose the zeal to do it again since you are going to do it exactly the same way.
They will have to pump in loads of content to keep maxed chars from quitting since rolling an alt more then once= boredom.
Maybe the writers for MMORPG.com enjoy playing the games they write about? (for the most part).
It's possible to spend more time trying to "find the fun" in a new title than looking for ways that you hate it. It's an approach I've taken up recently and I'm happier for it.
I'm still looking for my DAOC2 or new, well made sandbox, but until the day comes that I find such a title I'll enjoy what I can from the titles that are out there. There's fun to be found in all of them if you just look.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Excuse me, but what ELSE is there to do wrong in a MMORPG? Rift does EVERYTHING wrong apparently.
I get so sick of this argument.
As soon as I invest millions or tens of millions into a game promising next-gen, I'll consider myself responsible for improving questing.
For now, I'll expect companies to live up to their hype.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Right something good about something people don't care
Write something bad about somthing it opens to door to 'hating for the sake of hating'.
This is what these sites/forums are for: For wild hate and nothing else, when people actally start caring about whats actally said with EVERY side the equalition not just 'I WANT YOU TO HATE THIS WITH ME SO I FEEL IMPORTANT' then people would probly treat everyone with so degree of repect
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
I don't know how well you follow RIFT's reviews or RIFT's forums but the game is wildly popular (for reasons I personally don't understand). Most of MMORPG's reviews of this game aren't just postive, they're good. None may be the official opinion of MMORPG.com but it's clear that the overwhelming (unanimous? Has anyone had a negative overall opinion from the staff?) opinion of the staff finds the game to be a great game.
This same writer's last post was praising 5 things Rift did right.
The dissenters in the forum community, like myself, just can't see what makes the game stand out from the crowd other than better graphics than WoW and good implementation of PQs til the grind gets old (but not the best graphics of recent years' mmo's).
And before you ask, I spend my time talking about a game I don't like because I've nothing else to do. MMOs are disappointing me at the moment. Maybe I am just burned out hard.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Why?
It's a valid point. There's constant criticism of how "bad" everything is, yet none of the people complaining have a single constructive suggestion as to how it could have been done better.
As for not living up to the hype... you've only yourself to blame for getting sucked into the hype. Trion delivered exactly what it promised, which is a solid MMO that improves on it's predecessors. Personally I enjoy it for what it is, in part because I never expected it to be "perfect", like apparently so many people expect new MMOs to be these days.
I thought I covered "Why" but once again.. because I really don't know how to express it any other way..
I'm not paid to build games, to develop lore, to live up to someone's marketing. My income has nothing to do with making games. It's the responsibility of those that are paid for this to come up with new and interesting ways to do this when the overwhelming opinion across the genre is "kill 10" is getting old.
It is my fault for believing the hype. A lesson learned. I just haven't been disappointed by an mmo before because my experience list is short but years-long. It includes wow and Final Fantasy XI. I got years of enjoyment out of both before hitting a burnout point in both.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
You can't be serious with that what you said talking of "a defcom" to defend Wow. You must have not red one single post in this Thread, otherwise you would have not said so. I'm sorry for you but this is not being constructive.
Can't believe how People these days have such a huge Loss of Reality when still talking of "defening a Game" and "you only compare to Wow". Either this or just being too young to put 1and1 together. But that's nothing to blame for.
That is life, that you compare with the best. I don't even play Wow for over 4 Years now but still my cognitive abilties are fully working and so I notice that ..uhm.. Wow.. uhm.. is still top nodge.. uhm uhm..
Can someone give me the term how People are called in English who do not want to face Reality and won't accept a (mostly) bigger authority (in this case, the authority is a Big company which produced a MMO loved by Millions of People)? Thanks, English ain't my mother tongue ;-)
/offtopic
Yeah this whole Post was offtopic. But I might be allowed to throw an OT once a Week, am I :-))
My own evaluation of the problems with Wrath, touching on the problems with Cataclysm.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4157634#4157634
MMORPG hardly blindly supports wow
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/431/view/features - all of the many things they've written on rift. Even with cataclysm's release, Rift is more often in the articles list than Warcraft.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
{mod edit}
Bytheway: Am I the only one who found that "We are not in Azeroth anymore" was abit too contra-productive?
They are forcing a comparison and fail miserably
And my 2nd Point here from several Experiences in Life which went well: Don't ever copy something and want to make it look better.
The only thing which really kicks something from the Throne is making it completely different.
Well see, that's the difference between constructive criticism, and just plain whining.
It's not your job to design games, but then again if you can't be bothered to offer constructive criticism, why bother saying anything at all?
[Mod Edit]
If you're tired of quest based MMOs, stop playing them, simple as that. There's plenty of other people who are content with Rift the way it is. It's not a 'failure' simply because it doesn't appeal to your personal taste.
Actually, it doesn't annoy everyone else, it annoys people like you that are fine with the state of things. If you look at this thread, it doesn't annoy the majority of the people posting here. In all fairness, it might annoy the people posting in 5 things right. I'm not hating on RIFT specifically for the lack in improvement of quests. The fault is common among "next gen" games.
The quotes have been provided before where RIFT said it would be next-gen. I expect these people who have used millions of dollars to pay some people to do nothing but think of new ways to change things up, and as we all know, RIFT didn't change things up. Questing is primarily a solo activity but perhaps some games could involve npc teams. Like escort, but escorts are often very helpless, just with high hp pools so they don't die in case you can't taunt all the mobs at once.
You want ideas? Ok.
- Assist quests like the type of escort quests I decribed above, perhaps making you a participant on an NPC team. Every quest shouldn't be like this. Half of them shouldn't, but 5%? Might not be bad. The advantage to this is with decent NPC AI (something games lack in), you could learn something about team play before embarrassing yourself in an unfamiliar game.
- More creative vehicle quests. Some vehicle quests are tedious because of poor vehicle control. I'm glad not every quest in every game is a vehicle quest (I didn't encounter any vehicle quests in RIFT beta but that stopped at 42 and hey, questing is bland, I might have just forgot).
- Make a zone where the questing is like an RTS. The quests are to take down an insurgent faction that is striving to enter the foray. Obviously WoW could and should have done this any time in the last few years since they have the RTS themselves, they don't need to worry about copyright or copyright fees.
- License or pull from the old library some of these companies have access to. Again not every quest, not most quests, and again hopefully in an optional zone so for the people who want to query hoofless zebras, may and still progress correctly.
Licensing the old titles, if it was necessary, and using their elements would do a lot to break up for the repetitiveness.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
You're kidding right? Let me fill you in
WoW: November 23, 2004
Shadowbane: March 25, 2003
EVE: May 6, 2003
EQ: March 16, 1999
EQ2: November 8, 2004
Runescape: January 4, 2001
Lineage: September 3, 1998
Lineage 2: October 1, 2003 in Korea and April 27, 2004 in USA
Do your research before you point fingers, Buddy
Cheers,
Rassy
That depends on the game. There have been several that have been rather critical. Even big names like SE's FF IVX have seen quite critial reviews(in fact it was hammered by just about every major site I've seen). Over all MikeB and his group have been fairly even handed. But ANY review is simply that persons OPINION. Way too many people seem to forget that.
NO GAME will EVER live up to the projections, and wild expectations and imaginations that individual gamers bring to it. Its simply not possible. Thats why I call this the One True Game(tm) syndrome. Its easy to sit back and play arm chair Dev, when one isn't aware(or doesn't care) about the complexities and realities involved. MMO client/server suites are some of the most complex apps in existence. The time/talent and experience it takes to just get them to work is mind numbing.
Its much more of an art, than a science at this point. The design process is a LONG sequence of trade offs in terms of time and talent. It can be easy to imagine a new approach, but VERY difficult to craft that. There is also the realities of the market to be considered in this. People go on(and on...) about creating a "better" questing system. Sure, some of that could be done(up to a point, some of the suggestions have been more than a little off the wall). But then we start running into the TLDR(too long didn't read) syndrome.
In many of these cases, WoW and others aren't doing things this way for some random reason. Its because from their experience(data mining, over years) that the overwhelming majority of people WANT things done the way they are. There is also the reality of the more complex things get, the more difficult they are to test(MANY more failure modes). Why go that route(that chews up time and talent) when most people do not want them in the first place?
One of the main things I like about Rift is that its so familiar, That adds to my enjoyment. Its also well polished(which it would be difficult to do with the more odd ball methods advocated by some). Over all to me, its a good game, and thats all I'm looking for.
So, you're not looking for the One True Game(tm)?
Something tells me many of the people that frequent these forums might already be aware of that. Repetition for emphasis, eh
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Its not just history that repeats itself... ^^
The One True Game(tm) is typical of human belief and perception systems. Its a pattern that one can find in many other areas as well.