In spite of what everyone says..... This game is NOT World of Warcraft so stop trying to play it like it is and maybe you people will actually begin to enjoy it! I am gonna stop posting crap in these forums now and go play my new all time favorite game. RIFT ROCKS! As soon as you get out of that WoW mindset. Remember, you truly ARE NOT in Azeroth anymore and it is wonderful!
I suggest the OP goes play WOW archeology for 3-4 hours. Then come back and enjoy RIFT. I also suggest he goes lvl a toon from 1-85 with same lockdown talents- smashint the same buttons for the entire time - then come back to rift. I also would like to see the OP go into WOW and find me a dynamic event in world... where players come together to help fight the invasion of the dragon invating Azeroth.
RIFT is not WOW - Rift is what WOW cataclysm should have been. Its diffrent in basics concepts that make it a great propect for long term development. Its not perfect. No game is. Trion needs to show full commitment to the game and improve it with fresh content and good strong work on souls and balancing efforts.
I think TRION got something special. Its not a game where you should burn your RL to death to get to endgame to then realise you dont have a RL. No game should do that. Lets keep those sick ppl in WOW plz.
In spite of what everyone says..... This game is NOT World of Warcraft so stop trying to play it like it is and maybe you people will actually begin to enjoy it! I am gonna stop posting crap in these forums now and go play my new all time favorite game. RIFT ROCKS! As soon as you get out of that WoW mindset. Remember, you truly ARE NOT in Azeroth anymore and it is wonderful!
I'll say that Rift is a fine game in almost every regard, but it isn't so far removed from WoW style gameplay that someone who is completely burned out on that won't quickly end up in the same situation in Rift. Even with all the new bells and whistles at the core Rift feels and plays extremely like wow (or any game of that style).
Berating people are repeating a marketing tagline doesn't really change that.
In spite of what everyone says..... This game is NOT World of Warcraft so stop trying to play it like it is and maybe you people will actually begin to enjoy it! I am gonna stop posting crap in these forums now and go play my new all time favorite game. RIFT ROCKS! As soon as you get out of that WoW mindset. Remember, you truly ARE NOT in Azeroth anymore and it is wonderful!
I'll say that Rift is a fine game in almost every regard, but it isn't so far removed from WoW style gameplay that someone who is completely burned out on that won't quickly end up in the same situation in Rift. Even with all the new bells and whistles at the core Rift feels and plays extremely like wow (or any game of that style).
Berating people are repeating a marketing tagline doesn't really change that.
While what you're saying is true, you have to agree with me that it's saying more about the people who're saying 'WoW clone' or 'Rift is WoW' etc than anything else.
Namely that they've grown so burnt out on typical WoW style/themepark MMO gameplay features that they've grown allergic towards it, any sign of it quickly provoking an exaggerated allergic reaction towards it and triggering that feeling of burnout and tiredness of it.
The interesting question here is, how far does an MMORPG have to be removed from typical WoW style/themepark features to NOT trigger an allergic cq burn out reaction in those people? And when apparently at first the gameplay of an MMORPG feels far enough removed from WoW-style gameplay to be satisfactory, would it prove to be enough or would it just take a little bit longer before the allergic reaction or feelings of MMO burnout kick in again?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If one has to put forth work like effort to be entertained then where is the entertainment? You either are or you are not basically. If you have to go looking for some small caveat within the product to finally be able to get enjoyment then for you, thats not a good product.
I think you just summarised the reason most heavy type sandboxes are not successful and have to incorporate themepark elements to survive.
I don't think it's always the product's fault. For example, some people find mountain climbing entertaining. Others find it an activity that involves too much effort for too little gain. Each their own and they are both right to their preferences.
Well, farther than Rift for sure.
I mean besides world invasions and interchangeable subclasses, what exactly sets Rift apart from WoW + elements from other MMORPGS?
Achievements 100% like in WoW,
Collections 100% like in EQ2,
Crafting 100% like in WoW,
Combat mechanics 90% like in WoW,
world design 80% ilke in EQ2,
warfronts 100% like in WAR,
global events 80% like in WAR (but stages, grouping etc is all the same like PQs),
interface 100% like in WoW,
factions 100% like in WoW,
even the so highly praised subclasses contain complete 100% copies of other MMO classes (e.g. assassin=wow rogue)
Granted, they took all that stuff from other games and successfully implemented them, and they created a fun themepark game.
BUT: It's millions of miles away from any innovative concept. And anyone saying it's largely different from WoW has probably only seen WoW and some other mainstream themepark MMO. Go play EVE online for 6 months and you'll know what _different_ really means. Even a straight edge themepark game like LotRO offers things like housing at least.
This is what seems to happen to me with MMOs lately. I get bored. I was so excited to play this game every day until today. I'm level 40 and I got bored. What the heck.
{mod edit}
There is alternatives take a look at PlanetSide that is about to be majorly overhauled, Darkfall (not great but alot better than an EQ clone), Mortal Online (needs some work but amazing combat), Xsyon (early stages yet, good potential).
While what you're saying is true, you have to agree with me that it's saying more about the people who're saying 'WoW clone' or 'Rift is WoW' etc than anything else.
Namely that they've grown so burnt out on typical WoW style/themepark MMO gameplay features that they've grown allergic towards it, any sign of it quickly provoking an exaggerated allergic reaction towards it and triggering that feeling of burnout and tiredness of it.
The interesting question here is, how far does an MMORPG have to be removed from typical WoW style/themepark features to NOT trigger an allergic cq burn out reaction in those people? And when apparently at first the gameplay of an MMORPG feels far enough removed from WoW-style gameplay to be satisfactory, would it prove to be enough or would it just take a little bit longer before the allergic reaction or feelings of MMO burnout kick in again?
I'm not really sure what you mean in your first sentence. I think I get what you are getting at though, so I think I would agree with you (see below?).
Rift doesn't seem like it was a game designed to give people with wow/eq2/lotro burnout a new home. It seems to shamelessly take features from other games, paste them directly into Rift and offer it as an alternative with a couple new features in a new world.
Around mmorpg.com that isn't going to sit well with most players, because this site is the skid row of mmo burnouts. Beyond that rift should give people who still enjoy that style of game more of the same plus some.
To answer your interesting question (and it is intersting), I think a game needs to evolve what is already being offered if it isn't going to innovate. Instead of taking the elements that made wow (or some other game) and changing the skin they need to evolve it into something that is different, but still similar in nature.
Take quest hub grinding for an example. Instead of offering tons of linear quest chains that must be slogged through in order to gain levels just for the sake of gaining levels, they could reduce that to something more meaningful. Perhaps the quest chain is long with many different arching branches that give players choices. Perhaps the quests change as the players affect the world and have dynamic elements. Perhaps quests are very few in nature, but very significant. Maybe, please god please, quests can be tuned into something that people actually group together to achieve and maybe they are not chains that force people into different timeframes of the quest preventing them from playing together.
Im not saying game is not good first of all, it is unique in many ways accually. But quests are BORING! No one can say otherwise. Its just sending me same spot for 4th time!? Sorry but pvp is same as WoW, nothing new to me in that area. Only thing to do is chasing rifts but It cant be possible when there is no one around x_x Its still a good game but I got bored after 40.
Ok dude, first, learn how to quest and grab all the quests for the same area at once. Run them all, then go back. It's easier and takes less time.
Secondly, grinding the same damn skill over and over again is as dull as it gets. You think quests suck, try a sandbox and learn.
Third, PvP for experience until you get bored with it, then quest, then PvP again. It works for me, but it should be noted I don't play more than 2-3 hours at a time on average.
Fourth, if you play for 8+ hours a day, stop. Get a hobby, a friend, go work out, whatever, just get a life. If you don't play like this, then ignore this line.
And last but not least, take a break. Go away for a week or longer and see if you're still bored. Odds are, given enough time away from MMOs in general, you won't be.
I hate questing, if i have to do boring grinding, id much rather be able to camp somewhere and kill mobs. For me, fighting is more fun than running around.
I couldnt care less about the level grind, its practically painless in Rift. Leveling up in Rift isnt too bad at all, there are always different things to do, warfronts, quests, mobs.
Its the end-game that is incredibly boring. Do daily quests, wtf im leveled up and i still need to do quests? They added one new WF, so now you get to grind the same 4 warfronts over and over. If you arent bored of doing rifts by the time you are 50 then you have a very high tolerence for repetition. Then there are the expert dungeons, which are almost identical, except for the addition of a boss, to the dungeons you did leveling up, only now you get to do them on Expert mode.
I kinda like the grind if there is something to work for. In daoc in the old days before the frontiers was a seperate zone, you could be pve side and see spam from people fighting in the frontier, and get excited, knowing that all this work you were putting in was going to be worth it.
In rift you grind some gear so you can...grind more gear. Yuck. Its this mechanic more than anything that made me want to quit.
I played the beta up to lvl 15, and that was more than enough. They 're already talking about "empty" servers on Rift forums.
I bet nobody will be playing rift a year from now. The only reason rift made alot of noise is becasue there is nothing else to *new* to play. Rift filled that "spot" for now.
I mean besides world invasions and interchangeable subclasses, what exactly sets Rift apart from WoW + elements from other MMORPGS?
Oh how about the world itself, the art direction, the atmosphere? Rift has its own unique world and it's an extremely grim world. In fact, it's one of the grimmest MMOs I've ever played. The way the story is conveyed is different from WoW by a lot. Again, as I've mentioned before, you can only really get the full one by talking to the NPCs (not just quest givers), finding books, examining statues, etc. In that sense, I guess one could say Rift is more like EQ2, but then EQ2 got this imo very good idea of how to tell a story in single player RPGs.
Achievements 100% like in WoW,
And EQ2, LotRO, WAR, etc. WoW wasn't the first game to do this either... achievements have been around for a long time in games (like console ones).
Collections 100% like in EQ2,
This is more again like in single player RPGs that did this before. I think it's a good thing to have, so I'm glad Rift did them.
Crafting 100% like in WoW,
With LotRO elements thrown in so it's not 100% like WoW. One thing you fail to mention are the crafting quests which WoW does not have.
Combat mechanics 90% like in WoW,
Tabbing to target mobs, pressing 1-10 to engage abilities, etc. was all in place in MMOs pre-WoW. This is not a WoW-exclusive feature. The only element that I can say is taken from WoW is the global cooldown timer.
world design 80% ilke in EQ2,
What part of world design? What part of EQ2? Many players acknowledge that EQ2's overall zone design has changed over the years, but this is based on many elements. Comparing world design between games is extremely complex and I think this statement of yours is bogus at best.
warfronts 100% like in WAR,
global events 80% like in WAR (but stages, grouping etc is all the same like PQs),
Huh?? As far as I know, the WAR world events have always been PvP-based. This one is PvE-based. The WAR events I've been in have not been like this one.
interface 100% like in WoW,
Which is almost 100% like in DAoC. Let's face it, WoW did not invent this UI (neither did DAoC but it's the closest pre-WoW incarnation of that UI).
factions 100% like in WoW,
Except that the factions are radically different from those in WoW. The only similarity between Rift's and WoW's factions is that there are two.
even the so highly praised subclasses contain complete 100% copies of other MMO classes (e.g. assassin=wow rogue)
Again, a rather bogus way of supporting your argument. The mage/warrior/priest thing has been in fantasy games for a long time. Does that mean every single fantasy game is a D&D clone? Also, I do not find that the souls copy 100% any game's classes.
BUT: It's millions of miles away from any innovative concept. And anyone saying it's largely different from WoW has probably only seen WoW and some other mainstream themepark MMO. Go play EVE online for 6 months and you'll know what _different_ really means. Even a straight edge themepark game like LotRO offers things like housing at least.
EVE even has a variant of the mage/warrior/priest in it: mage = sniper boats, warrior = any of the tanking ships, priest = armor/shield reppers. EVE in that sense is not as different as you might think. Sure, the combat mechanics and UI are different, but what I'm trying to get at here is that there are core elements to these games that seem to be unavoidable.
Rift isn't worlds apart from WoW no, but it's not a clone. Rift advertizes itself as a 'themepark' and fantasy game and it is just that. So if you don't like this style of game, why even bother picking it up? If you're happier in EVE, then by all means just stay in EVE.
It's sad really how in 2011 people still think WoW invented everything they know about an MMO...
I for one, although having played wow as my first MMO, made some research and tested many other games to know the origins of the genre, I dont live under the ilusion that wow invented it all... try to do the same before writing
I played the beta up to lvl 15, and that was more than enough. They 're already talking about "empty" servers on Rift forums.
I bet nobody will be playing rift a year from now. The only reason rift made alot of noise is becasue there is nothing else to *new* to play. Rift filled that "spot" for now.
Says the guy who has bought a game long dead for 10 bucks...
Really mate, get your facts straight, theres not a single empty server and besides the recommended all of them get on Mid to High capacity on a daily basis... want some links for the server stats or you can check them yourself?
If you arent bored of doing rifts by the time you are 50 then you have a very high tolerence for repetition.
You are talking about a genre that still have people playing Wow since 2004 and EQ since '99. Even a few UO 97 and possibly some M59 since 96.
And while those games have added new features since release it still tells you how easily bored MMO players are.... Not very.
The 10 million dollar question is how you make a MMO on a normal budget that can really fun borth the first month and for many years. You can't add unlimited things to do since you don't have unlimited resources.
In the old day did the studios solve this by letting the game take very long to play, leveling were a full time work and people spent a lot of time grinding for XP.
Today they instead moved the focus on the so called "endgame", meaning that people run a number of instances (raids and dungeons) and some daily quests for gear.
Both ways include a lot of repetition. The only way to avoid it is by using player created content or random dungeons and both of those things have problems as well. There are of course the possibility to make a sandbox game where every single creature is a player...
Making a game that is fun for years is almost impossible, particularly for all players.
even the so highly praised subclasses contain complete 100% copies of other MMO classes (e.g. assassin=wow rogue)
Again, a rather bogus way of supporting your argument. The mage/warrior/priest thing has been in fantasy games for a long time. Does that mean every single fantasy game is a D&D clone? Also, I do not find that the souls copy 100% any game's classes.
Actually, yes it kinda does. Almost all MMOs are kinda D&D copies/clones.
There are many pen and paper RPG games out there even if D&D are the most famous. Almost all MMOs use a modified version of it's mechanics.
Classes, attributs, hitpoints, levels... All invented in D&D. Now doesn't all MMOs have all these features but almost all have them.
And it is kinda sad since this is the first basic RPG system but many better have been invented later. Just too bad that the original Warhammer MMO was cancelled and Mythic got the license, the original game was made on the Warhammer RPG mechanics, they are very different.
I wouldn't say that Rift is better or worse in this aspect.
This is the time for a GOOD sandbox game to come out. The MMO comunity is finally ready for the change.
But are the investors ready? Given the current economic situation, its going to be VERY difficult to convince investors of the ROI of anything but theme park games. Not to mention, that sand box means difffernt things to different people. When I hear sand box, a FFA full loot gankfest comes to mind. Which I suspect is what quite a number of other people think of as well. There is a rather limited market for those in the western markets.
I play SC2 mostly because everything else I find boring. Although I am gonna go back to ME2 for the arrival pack and probably buy Shogun 2. I hear lots of good stuff about it
Repitition! There is one simple fact. Companies can't create content faster than users can consume it. Because of this they put in item grinds to keep you repeating the same content over and over and over again. MMOs take longer than single player games but this is due to some convuluted mechanics like long leveling. When you reach the end game, you have done about 95% of the content in the game. Now you have a few extra areas in which you can play and repeat and repeat.
Content simply doesn't come out fast enough. This is because it is not possible with the current resources and capabilities.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Kind of off topic but if I could get afew friends back into UO then I'd stick with that. They got an enhanced client or something which gives it a more modern interface and hotkeys etc. Kind of not like the good old days or macros and it's become more about items these days so it might be hard to get old players back agian because of that. But hey, there still isn't anything better out there. The graphics are outdated but even new people or anyone into mmorpgs would think UO was pretty cool.
This is what seems to happen to me with MMOs lately. I get bored. I was so excited to play this game every day until today. I'm level 40 and I got bored. What the heck.
It's just rehash of WoW and Warhammer, just polished unlike other MMORPGs.
Rift is nothing new, nothing innovative, bland, generic and boring. Played beta and to be honest it's just the same old "been there done that" type of game.
As someone who plays mmos since '99 and wrote master's thesis about mmo market I don't find anything interesting in Rift. Everything that's in it has already been done at some point by someone else. I am fed up with the same old "WoW" game just made by some other developer and with little things changed.
The only game on horizon that may bring fresh air and can be deemed innovative is Guild Wars 2. I am not a fanboy but I can tell "borderline next-gen or next-gen" from "WoW clone with different skin".
At this point I must question the objectivity of reviewers. 9/10 ? 85/100 ? This game is extremely polished but it doesn't bring anything new. It doesn't deserve more then 6,5/10 - at least in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to bash this game. It's degree of polish is very high and satisfying but on the other hand brings nothing new to the table.
I respect opinions of others who may like the game tho.
It's just rehash of WoW and Warhammer, just polished unlike other MMORPGs. Rift is nothing new, nothing innovative, bland, generic and boring. Played beta and to be honest it's just the same old "been there done that" type of game. As someone who plays mmos since '99 and wrote master's thesis about mmo market I don't find anything interesting in Rift. Everything that's in it has already been done at some point by someone else. I am fed up with the same old "WoW" game just made by some other developer and with little things changed. The only game on horizon that may bring fresh air and can be deemed innovative is Guild Wars 2. I am not a fanboy but I can tell "borderline next-gen or next-gen" from "WoW clone with different skin". At this point I must question the objectivity of reviewers. 9/10 ? 85/100 ? This game is extremely polished but it doesn't bring anything new. It doesn't deserve more then 6,5/10 - at least in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to bash this game. It's degree of polish is very high and satisfying but on the other hand brings nothing new to the table. I respect opinions of others who may like the game tho.
This pretty much says it all. This is a bland recycled version of what is out there. This would be fine if it actually improved on what it recycled but in most cases it is a step back from what is already out there. The one thing it has going for it is the Rifts but those got bland really fast since they aren't really dynamic and they aren't diverse enough. If you haven't played a lot of MMO it is probably a fine game for you but anyone who got used to other current MMO will probably just find this lacking.
I mean besides world invasions and interchangeable subclasses, what exactly sets Rift apart from WoW + elements from other MMORPGS?
Oh how about the world itself, the art direction, the atmosphere? Rift has its own unique world and it's an extremely grim world. In fact, it's one of the grimmest MMOs I've ever played. The way the story is conveyed is different from WoW by a lot. Again, as I've mentioned before, you can only really get the full one by talking to the NPCs (not just quest givers), finding books, examining statues, etc. In that sense, I guess one could say Rift is more like EQ2, but then EQ2 got this imo very good idea of how to tell a story in single player RPGs.
Achievements 100% like in WoW,
And EQ2, LotRO, WAR, etc. WoW wasn't the first game to do this either... achievements have been around for a long time in games (like console ones).
Collections 100% like in EQ2,
This is more again like in single player RPGs that did this before. I think it's a good thing to have, so I'm glad Rift did them.
Crafting 100% like in WoW,
With LotRO elements thrown in so it's not 100% like WoW. One thing you fail to mention are the crafting quests which WoW does not have.
Combat mechanics 90% like in WoW,
Tabbing to target mobs, pressing 1-10 to engage abilities, etc. was all in place in MMOs pre-WoW. This is not a WoW-exclusive feature. The only element that I can say is taken from WoW is the global cooldown timer.
world design 80% ilke in EQ2,
What part of world design? What part of EQ2? Many players acknowledge that EQ2's overall zone design has changed over the years, but this is based on many elements. Comparing world design between games is extremely complex and I think this statement of yours is bogus at best.
warfronts 100% like in WAR,
global events 80% like in WAR (but stages, grouping etc is all the same like PQs),
Huh?? As far as I know, the WAR world events have always been PvP-based. This one is PvE-based. The WAR events I've been in have not been like this one.
interface 100% like in WoW,
Which is almost 100% like in DAoC. Let's face it, WoW did not invent this UI (neither did DAoC but it's the closest pre-WoW incarnation of that UI).
factions 100% like in WoW,
Except that the factions are radically different from those in WoW. The only similarity between Rift's and WoW's factions is that there are two.
even the so highly praised subclasses contain complete 100% copies of other MMO classes (e.g. assassin=wow rogue)
Again, a rather bogus way of supporting your argument. The mage/warrior/priest thing has been in fantasy games for a long time. Does that mean every single fantasy game is a D&D clone? Also, I do not find that the souls copy 100% any game's classes.
BUT: It's millions of miles away from any innovative concept. And anyone saying it's largely different from WoW has probably only seen WoW and some other mainstream themepark MMO. Go play EVE online for 6 months and you'll know what _different_ really means. Even a straight edge themepark game like LotRO offers things like housing at least.
EVE even has a variant of the mage/warrior/priest in it: mage = sniper boats, warrior = any of the tanking ships, priest = armor/shield reppers. EVE in that sense is not as different as you might think. Sure, the combat mechanics and UI are different, but what I'm trying to get at here is that there are core elements to these games that seem to be unavoidable.
Rift isn't worlds apart from WoW no, but it's not a clone. Rift advertizes itself as a 'themepark' and fantasy game and it is just that. So if you don't like this style of game, why even bother picking it up? If you're happier in EVE, then by all means just stay in EVE.
I nevr said it was a clone; I said it is very, very close and adding some of the more popular features of other games.
Concerning the similarity to WAR i was talking about Public QUests, with the stages and a boss at the end, the whole experience is practically the same. Join an open group, run through various stages, zerg down a boss, get loot.
And by factions I was talking about the reputation grind like *+250 Eldritch seekers* on completing a quest.
Just to get these straight.
I also disagree on 'grim world', when comparing to Age of Conan, The Witcher etc. this game has no discrimination, no slavery, no actual crime, no draconian punishment, no sexual content, nobody gets terminally ill, nobody has lost limbs whatsoever; Which IS _ NOT _ NECESSARILY _ A _ BAD _ THING!!! Just not particularly grim or dark, a world in peril is by no means anything special, it's everyday business, hunting down a child slaver ring and finding out that the cleric who helped you for 10 quests is the actual cruel sadist, now _THAT's_ what gets a 'ding' on my 'grim atmosphere' counter. Going to a party and murdering everyone with various methods just for the fame in your dark brotherhood (TES: Oblivion), that's a 'ding'; Dragged into the decision of letting an innocent woman be hanged at the gallow or leaving an imprisoned friend alone forever (Planescape), those are grim situations.
Argueing that every game since ever yada yada has done it this way I wholeheartedly agree, and WoW refined the fun elements just like Rift did, another similarity. And the game _is_ fun; But a rolleyes-another-wowacoaster-ride for me.
I take it you are an EVE player so you do know what can effectively be very different, like real terrain control, user-created content, self-sustained economy
Again, it's not that I don't _like_ rift, I enjoy it, but it's another breathtaking fireworks AAA themepark without giving me any opportunity to actually create anything, aimed at the typical 19-year-old achiever that races through the levels, raids through the gear and poses in front of the auctioneer with his uber geer and how he is teh main playa of teh shard!
M
PS: Oh and back when I played WoW regularely, before TBC that is, there actually were crafting quests, much similar to the ones in Rift.
This is the time for a GOOD sandbox game to come out. The MMO comunity is finally ready for the change.
What a load of tosh; The old MMO community can cope with longevity community and persistance.
The current new breed of MMO gamers can cope with;
A month to max level or it's a grind
Everything must be automated and if i have to travel for more than 2 minutes then im not playing
PvP is a must and it's all about combat
Real gameplay where you have to travel ;explore; craft they need
Auction Houses
Auto Mail
Auto Travel
Nah all the element that used to create gameplay and lead to immersion have been removed it's all about Epeens and guilds now not large expansive worlds which are challenging and that you can have fun in.
If you want a decent game with lots of fun ; their are quite a few MUDS text based that are better than all but three of the current MMOs for depth and gameplay ; hey they don't have graphics.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I mean besides world invasions and interchangeable subclasses, what exactly sets Rift apart from WoW + elements from other MMORPGS?
Oh how about the world itself, the art direction, the atmosphere? Rift has its own unique world and it's an extremely grim world. In fact, it's one of the grimmest MMOs I've ever played. The way the story is conveyed is different from WoW by a lot. Again, as I've mentioned before, you can only really get the full one by talking to the NPCs (not just quest givers), finding books, examining statues, etc. In that sense, I guess one could say Rift is more like EQ2, but then EQ2 got this imo very good idea of how to tell a story in single player RPGs.
Achievements 100% like in WoW,
And EQ2, LotRO, WAR, etc. WoW wasn't the first game to do this either... achievements have been around for a long time in games (like console ones).
Collections 100% like in EQ2,
This is more again like in single player RPGs that did this before. I think it's a good thing to have, so I'm glad Rift did them.
Crafting 100% like in WoW,
With LotRO elements thrown in so it's not 100% like WoW. One thing you fail to mention are the crafting quests which WoW does not have.
Combat mechanics 90% like in WoW,
Tabbing to target mobs, pressing 1-10 to engage abilities, etc. was all in place in MMOs pre-WoW. This is not a WoW-exclusive feature. The only element that I can say is taken from WoW is the global cooldown timer.
world design 80% ilke in EQ2,
What part of world design? What part of EQ2? Many players acknowledge that EQ2's overall zone design has changed over the years, but this is based on many elements. Comparing world design between games is extremely complex and I think this statement of yours is bogus at best.
warfronts 100% like in WAR,
global events 80% like in WAR (but stages, grouping etc is all the same like PQs),
Huh?? As far as I know, the WAR world events have always been PvP-based. This one is PvE-based. The WAR events I've been in have not been like this one.
interface 100% like in WoW,
Which is almost 100% like in DAoC. Let's face it, WoW did not invent this UI (neither did DAoC but it's the closest pre-WoW incarnation of that UI).
factions 100% like in WoW,
Except that the factions are radically different from those in WoW. The only similarity between Rift's and WoW's factions is that there are two.
even the so highly praised subclasses contain complete 100% copies of other MMO classes (e.g. assassin=wow rogue)
Again, a rather bogus way of supporting your argument. The mage/warrior/priest thing has been in fantasy games for a long time. Does that mean every single fantasy game is a D&D clone? Also, I do not find that the souls copy 100% any game's classes.
BUT: It's millions of miles away from any innovative concept. And anyone saying it's largely different from WoW has probably only seen WoW and some other mainstream themepark MMO. Go play EVE online for 6 months and you'll know what _different_ really means. Even a straight edge themepark game like LotRO offers things like housing at least.
EVE even has a variant of the mage/warrior/priest in it: mage = sniper boats, warrior = any of the tanking ships, priest = armor/shield reppers. EVE in that sense is not as different as you might think. Sure, the combat mechanics and UI are different, but what I'm trying to get at here is that there are core elements to these games that seem to be unavoidable.
Rift isn't worlds apart from WoW no, but it's not a clone. Rift advertizes itself as a 'themepark' and fantasy game and it is just that. So if you don't like this style of game, why even bother picking it up? If you're happier in EVE, then by all means just stay in EVE.
I nevr said it was a clone; I said it is very, very close and adding some of the more popular features of other games.
Concerning the similarity to WAR i was talking about Public QUests, with the stages and a boss at the end, the whole experience is practically the same. Join an open group, run through various stages, zerg down a boss, get loot.
And by factions I was talking about the reputation grind like *+250 Eldritch seekers* on completing a quest.
Just to get these straight.
I also disagree on 'grim world', when comparing to Age of Conan, The Witcher etc. this game has no discrimination, no slavery, no actual crime, no draconian punishment, no sexual content, nobody gets terminally ill, nobody has lost limbs whatsoever; Which IS _ NOT _ NECESSARILY _ A _ BAD _ THING!!! Just not particularly grim or dark, a world in peril is by no means anything special, it's everyday business, hunting down a child slaver ring and finding out that the cleric who helped you for 10 quests is the actual cruel sadist, now _THAT's_ what gets a 'ding' on my 'grim atmosphere' counter.
Argueing that every game since ever yada yada has done it this way I wholeheartedly agree, and WoW refined the fun elements just like Rift did, another similarity. And the game _is_ fun; But a rolleyes-another-wowacoaster-ride for me.
I take it you are an EVE player so you do know what can effectively be very different, like real terrain control, user-created content, self-sustained economy
Again, it's not that I don't _like_ rift, I enjoy it, but it's another breathtaking fireworks AAA themepark without giving me any opportunity to actually create anything, aimed at the typical 19-year-old achiever that races through the levels, raids through the gear and poses in front of the auctioneer with his uber geer and how he is teh main playa of teh shard!
M
PS: Oh and back when I played WoW regularely, before TBC that is, there actually were crafting quests, much similar to the ones in Rift.
Actually the newer Rifts have lot more elements than just dps down the boss, for example one tells a story of family being turned into undeads etc, for the other one you need to solve some puzzle etc. As for grim elements there is not dark elements like slavery but there discrimintion especially on defiant side, Kelari aren't liked by Eth or Bahmi but are allied with them for time being.
I nevr said it was a clone; I said it is very, very close and adding some of the more popular features of other games.
Concerning the similarity to WAR i was talking about Public QUests, with the stages and a boss at the end, the whole experience is practically the same. Join an open group, run through various stages, zerg down a boss, get loot.
And by factions I was talking about the reputation grind like *+250 Eldritch seekers* on completing a quest.
Just to get these straight.
I also disagree on 'grim world', when comparing to Age of Conan, The Witcher etc. this game has no discrimination, no slavery, no actual crime, no draconian punishment, no sexual content, nobody gets terminally ill, nobody has lost limbs whatsoever; Which IS _ NOT _ NECESSARILY _ A _ BAD _ THING!!! Just not particularly grim or dark, a world in peril is by no means anything special, it's everyday business, hunting down a child slaver ring and finding out that the cleric who helped you for 10 quests is the actual cruel sadist, now _THAT's_ what gets a 'ding' on my 'grim atmosphere' counter.
Argueing that every game since ever yada yada has done it this way I wholeheartedly agree, and WoW refined the fun elements just like Rift did, another similarity. And the game _is_ fun; But a rolleyes-another-wowacoaster-ride for me.
I take it you are an EVE player so you do know what can effectively be very different, like real terrain control, user-created content, self-sustained economy
Again, it's not that I don't _like_ rift, I enjoy it, but it's another breathtaking fireworks AAA themepark without giving me any opportunity to actually create anything, aimed at the typical 19-year-old achiever that races through the levels, raids through the gear and poses in front of the auctioneer with his uber geer and how he is teh main playa of teh shard!
M
PS: Oh and back when I played WoW regularely, before TBC that is, there actually were crafting quests, much similar to the ones in Rift.
Actually the newer Rifts have lot more elements than just dps down the boss, for example one tells a story of family being turned into undeads etc, for the other one you need to solve some puzzle etc. As for grim elements there is not dark elements like slavery but there discrimintion especially on defiant side, Kelari aren't liked by Eth or Bahmi but are allied with them for time being.
That's what you call 'discrimination'? In the WItcher elves are fighting a guerilla war against humans, living in ghettos and disappearing at night while self-proclaimed 'superior' templers hunt them down and supress their culture by the right of their 'god'...
I'm talking about 'Ivory coast'-grim, not about Parkland avenue citizens don't like Highstreet people because their picket fences are red. Geez, I could go on there forever, seen any dirt in Meridian, a beggar, anyone poor there, anyone really rich, any nobles there that spit on peasants, any servants working hard for near to no money? Seen a prison? A gallow? A hospital? This game is PEGI 13 for a reason, it's cleared of anything dark and gritty. Sure, it's not WoW, but it's worlds apart from really grim games...
Honestly, I am completely sure RIFT is going to end up just like Aion (the western edition I mean). Massive sales at lauch, huge server queues, good reviews, people praising it etc. then followed by drop in subscriber numbers, server merges and in 6 or so moths, only like 10 servers left with a small (yet dedicated) playerbase.
Comments
In spite of what everyone says..... This game is NOT World of Warcraft so stop trying to play it like it is and maybe you people will actually begin to enjoy it! I am gonna stop posting crap in these forums now and go play my new all time favorite game. RIFT ROCKS! As soon as you get out of that WoW mindset. Remember, you truly ARE NOT in Azeroth anymore and it is wonderful!
I suggest the OP goes play WOW archeology for 3-4 hours. Then come back and enjoy RIFT. I also suggest he goes lvl a toon from 1-85 with same lockdown talents- smashint the same buttons for the entire time - then come back to rift. I also would like to see the OP go into WOW and find me a dynamic event in world... where players come together to help fight the invasion of the dragon invating Azeroth.
RIFT is not WOW - Rift is what WOW cataclysm should have been. Its diffrent in basics concepts that make it a great propect for long term development. Its not perfect. No game is. Trion needs to show full commitment to the game and improve it with fresh content and good strong work on souls and balancing efforts.
I think TRION got something special. Its not a game where you should burn your RL to death to get to endgame to then realise you dont have a RL. No game should do that. Lets keep those sick ppl in WOW plz.
I'll say that Rift is a fine game in almost every regard, but it isn't so far removed from WoW style gameplay that someone who is completely burned out on that won't quickly end up in the same situation in Rift. Even with all the new bells and whistles at the core Rift feels and plays extremely like wow (or any game of that style).
Berating people are repeating a marketing tagline doesn't really change that.
While what you're saying is true, you have to agree with me that it's saying more about the people who're saying 'WoW clone' or 'Rift is WoW' etc than anything else.
Namely that they've grown so burnt out on typical WoW style/themepark MMO gameplay features that they've grown allergic towards it, any sign of it quickly provoking an exaggerated allergic reaction towards it and triggering that feeling of burnout and tiredness of it.
The interesting question here is, how far does an MMORPG have to be removed from typical WoW style/themepark features to NOT trigger an allergic cq burn out reaction in those people? And when apparently at first the gameplay of an MMORPG feels far enough removed from WoW-style gameplay to be satisfactory, would it prove to be enough or would it just take a little bit longer before the allergic reaction or feelings of MMO burnout kick in again?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well, farther than Rift for sure.
I mean besides world invasions and interchangeable subclasses, what exactly sets Rift apart from WoW + elements from other MMORPGS?
Achievements 100% like in WoW,
Collections 100% like in EQ2,
Crafting 100% like in WoW,
Combat mechanics 90% like in WoW,
world design 80% ilke in EQ2,
warfronts 100% like in WAR,
global events 80% like in WAR (but stages, grouping etc is all the same like PQs),
interface 100% like in WoW,
factions 100% like in WoW,
even the so highly praised subclasses contain complete 100% copies of other MMO classes (e.g. assassin=wow rogue)
Granted, they took all that stuff from other games and successfully implemented them, and they created a fun themepark game.
BUT: It's millions of miles away from any innovative concept. And anyone saying it's largely different from WoW has probably only seen WoW and some other mainstream themepark MMO. Go play EVE online for 6 months and you'll know what _different_ really means. Even a straight edge themepark game like LotRO offers things like housing at least.
M
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There is alternatives take a look at PlanetSide that is about to be majorly overhauled, Darkfall (not great but alot better than an EQ clone), Mortal Online (needs some work but amazing combat), Xsyon (early stages yet, good potential).
{mod edit}
I'm not really sure what you mean in your first sentence. I think I get what you are getting at though, so I think I would agree with you (see below?).
Rift doesn't seem like it was a game designed to give people with wow/eq2/lotro burnout a new home. It seems to shamelessly take features from other games, paste them directly into Rift and offer it as an alternative with a couple new features in a new world.
Around mmorpg.com that isn't going to sit well with most players, because this site is the skid row of mmo burnouts. Beyond that rift should give people who still enjoy that style of game more of the same plus some.
To answer your interesting question (and it is intersting), I think a game needs to evolve what is already being offered if it isn't going to innovate. Instead of taking the elements that made wow (or some other game) and changing the skin they need to evolve it into something that is different, but still similar in nature.
Take quest hub grinding for an example. Instead of offering tons of linear quest chains that must be slogged through in order to gain levels just for the sake of gaining levels, they could reduce that to something more meaningful. Perhaps the quest chain is long with many different arching branches that give players choices. Perhaps the quests change as the players affect the world and have dynamic elements. Perhaps quests are very few in nature, but very significant. Maybe, please god please, quests can be tuned into something that people actually group together to achieve and maybe they are not chains that force people into different timeframes of the quest preventing them from playing together.
Ok dude, first, learn how to quest and grab all the quests for the same area at once. Run them all, then go back. It's easier and takes less time.
Secondly, grinding the same damn skill over and over again is as dull as it gets. You think quests suck, try a sandbox and learn.
Third, PvP for experience until you get bored with it, then quest, then PvP again. It works for me, but it should be noted I don't play more than 2-3 hours at a time on average.
Fourth, if you play for 8+ hours a day, stop. Get a hobby, a friend, go work out, whatever, just get a life. If you don't play like this, then ignore this line.
And last but not least, take a break. Go away for a week or longer and see if you're still bored. Odds are, given enough time away from MMOs in general, you won't be.
I hate questing, if i have to do boring grinding, id much rather be able to camp somewhere and kill mobs. For me, fighting is more fun than running around.
I couldnt care less about the level grind, its practically painless in Rift. Leveling up in Rift isnt too bad at all, there are always different things to do, warfronts, quests, mobs.
Its the end-game that is incredibly boring. Do daily quests, wtf im leveled up and i still need to do quests? They added one new WF, so now you get to grind the same 4 warfronts over and over. If you arent bored of doing rifts by the time you are 50 then you have a very high tolerence for repetition. Then there are the expert dungeons, which are almost identical, except for the addition of a boss, to the dungeons you did leveling up, only now you get to do them on Expert mode.
I kinda like the grind if there is something to work for. In daoc in the old days before the frontiers was a seperate zone, you could be pve side and see spam from people fighting in the frontier, and get excited, knowing that all this work you were putting in was going to be worth it.
In rift you grind some gear so you can...grind more gear. Yuck. Its this mechanic more than anything that made me want to quit.
I played the beta up to lvl 15, and that was more than enough. They 're already talking about "empty" servers on Rift forums.
I bet nobody will be playing rift a year from now. The only reason rift made alot of noise is becasue there is nothing else to *new* to play. Rift filled that "spot" for now.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
It's sad really how in 2011 people still think WoW invented everything they know about an MMO...
I for one, although having played wow as my first MMO, made some research and tested many other games to know the origins of the genre, I dont live under the ilusion that wow invented it all... try to do the same before writing
Says the guy who has bought a game long dead for 10 bucks...
Really mate, get your facts straight, theres not a single empty server and besides the recommended all of them get on Mid to High capacity on a daily basis... want some links for the server stats or you can check them yourself?
You are talking about a genre that still have people playing Wow since 2004 and EQ since '99. Even a few UO 97 and possibly some M59 since 96.
And while those games have added new features since release it still tells you how easily bored MMO players are.... Not very.
The 10 million dollar question is how you make a MMO on a normal budget that can really fun borth the first month and for many years. You can't add unlimited things to do since you don't have unlimited resources.
In the old day did the studios solve this by letting the game take very long to play, leveling were a full time work and people spent a lot of time grinding for XP.
Today they instead moved the focus on the so called "endgame", meaning that people run a number of instances (raids and dungeons) and some daily quests for gear.
Both ways include a lot of repetition. The only way to avoid it is by using player created content or random dungeons and both of those things have problems as well. There are of course the possibility to make a sandbox game where every single creature is a player...
Making a game that is fun for years is almost impossible, particularly for all players.
Actually, yes it kinda does. Almost all MMOs are kinda D&D copies/clones.
There are many pen and paper RPG games out there even if D&D are the most famous. Almost all MMOs use a modified version of it's mechanics.
Classes, attributs, hitpoints, levels... All invented in D&D. Now doesn't all MMOs have all these features but almost all have them.
And it is kinda sad since this is the first basic RPG system but many better have been invented later. Just too bad that the original Warhammer MMO was cancelled and Mythic got the license, the original game was made on the Warhammer RPG mechanics, they are very different.
I wouldn't say that Rift is better or worse in this aspect.
But are the investors ready? Given the current economic situation, its going to be VERY difficult to convince investors of the ROI of anything but theme park games. Not to mention, that sand box means difffernt things to different people. When I hear sand box, a FFA full loot gankfest comes to mind. Which I suspect is what quite a number of other people think of as well. There is a rather limited market for those in the western markets.
I play SC2 mostly because everything else I find boring. Although I am gonna go back to ME2 for the arrival pack and probably buy Shogun 2. I hear lots of good stuff about it
Repitition! There is one simple fact. Companies can't create content faster than users can consume it. Because of this they put in item grinds to keep you repeating the same content over and over and over again. MMOs take longer than single player games but this is due to some convuluted mechanics like long leveling. When you reach the end game, you have done about 95% of the content in the game. Now you have a few extra areas in which you can play and repeat and repeat.
Content simply doesn't come out fast enough. This is because it is not possible with the current resources and capabilities.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Kind of off topic but if I could get afew friends back into UO then I'd stick with that. They got an enhanced client or something which gives it a more modern interface and hotkeys etc. Kind of not like the good old days or macros and it's become more about items these days so it might be hard to get old players back agian because of that. But hey, there still isn't anything better out there. The graphics are outdated but even new people or anyone into mmorpgs would think UO was pretty cool.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
It's just rehash of WoW and Warhammer, just polished unlike other MMORPGs.
Rift is nothing new, nothing innovative, bland, generic and boring. Played beta and to be honest it's just the same old "been there done that" type of game.
As someone who plays mmos since '99 and wrote master's thesis about mmo market I don't find anything interesting in Rift. Everything that's in it has already been done at some point by someone else. I am fed up with the same old "WoW" game just made by some other developer and with little things changed.
The only game on horizon that may bring fresh air and can be deemed innovative is Guild Wars 2. I am not a fanboy but I can tell "borderline next-gen or next-gen" from "WoW clone with different skin".
At this point I must question the objectivity of reviewers. 9/10 ? 85/100 ? This game is extremely polished but it doesn't bring anything new. It doesn't deserve more then 6,5/10 - at least in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to bash this game. It's degree of polish is very high and satisfying but on the other hand brings nothing new to the table.
I respect opinions of others who may like the game tho.
This pretty much says it all. This is a bland recycled version of what is out there. This would be fine if it actually improved on what it recycled but in most cases it is a step back from what is already out there. The one thing it has going for it is the Rifts but those got bland really fast since they aren't really dynamic and they aren't diverse enough. If you haven't played a lot of MMO it is probably a fine game for you but anyone who got used to other current MMO will probably just find this lacking.
I nevr said it was a clone; I said it is very, very close and adding some of the more popular features of other games.
Concerning the similarity to WAR i was talking about Public QUests, with the stages and a boss at the end, the whole experience is practically the same. Join an open group, run through various stages, zerg down a boss, get loot.
And by factions I was talking about the reputation grind like *+250 Eldritch seekers* on completing a quest.
Just to get these straight.
I also disagree on 'grim world', when comparing to Age of Conan, The Witcher etc. this game has no discrimination, no slavery, no actual crime, no draconian punishment, no sexual content, nobody gets terminally ill, nobody has lost limbs whatsoever; Which IS _ NOT _ NECESSARILY _ A _ BAD _ THING!!! Just not particularly grim or dark, a world in peril is by no means anything special, it's everyday business, hunting down a child slaver ring and finding out that the cleric who helped you for 10 quests is the actual cruel sadist, now _THAT's_ what gets a 'ding' on my 'grim atmosphere' counter. Going to a party and murdering everyone with various methods just for the fame in your dark brotherhood (TES: Oblivion), that's a 'ding'; Dragged into the decision of letting an innocent woman be hanged at the gallow or leaving an imprisoned friend alone forever (Planescape), those are grim situations.
Argueing that every game since ever yada yada has done it this way I wholeheartedly agree, and WoW refined the fun elements just like Rift did, another similarity. And the game _is_ fun; But a rolleyes-another-wowacoaster-ride for me.
I take it you are an EVE player so you do know what can effectively be very different, like real terrain control, user-created content, self-sustained economy
Again, it's not that I don't _like_ rift, I enjoy it, but it's another breathtaking fireworks AAA themepark without giving me any opportunity to actually create anything, aimed at the typical 19-year-old achiever that races through the levels, raids through the gear and poses in front of the auctioneer with his uber geer and how he is teh main playa of teh shard!
M
PS: Oh and back when I played WoW regularely, before TBC that is, there actually were crafting quests, much similar to the ones in Rift.
What a load of tosh; The old MMO community can cope with longevity community and persistance.
The current new breed of MMO gamers can cope with;
A month to max level or it's a grind
Everything must be automated and if i have to travel for more than 2 minutes then im not playing
PvP is a must and it's all about combat
Real gameplay where you have to travel ;explore; craft they need
Auction Houses
Auto Mail
Auto Travel
Nah all the element that used to create gameplay and lead to immersion have been removed it's all about Epeens and guilds now not large expansive worlds which are challenging and that you can have fun in.
If you want a decent game with lots of fun ; their are quite a few MUDS text based that are better than all but three of the current MMOs for depth and gameplay ; hey they don't have graphics.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Actually the newer Rifts have lot more elements than just dps down the boss, for example one tells a story of family being turned into undeads etc, for the other one you need to solve some puzzle etc. As for grim elements there is not dark elements like slavery but there discrimintion especially on defiant side, Kelari aren't liked by Eth or Bahmi but are allied with them for time being.
That's what you call 'discrimination'? In the WItcher elves are fighting a guerilla war against humans, living in ghettos and disappearing at night while self-proclaimed 'superior' templers hunt them down and supress their culture by the right of their 'god'...
I'm talking about 'Ivory coast'-grim, not about Parkland avenue citizens don't like Highstreet people because their picket fences are red. Geez, I could go on there forever, seen any dirt in Meridian, a beggar, anyone poor there, anyone really rich, any nobles there that spit on peasants, any servants working hard for near to no money? Seen a prison? A gallow? A hospital? This game is PEGI 13 for a reason, it's cleared of anything dark and gritty. Sure, it's not WoW, but it's worlds apart from really grim games...
Honestly, I am completely sure RIFT is going to end up just like Aion (the western edition I mean). Massive sales at lauch, huge server queues, good reviews, people praising it etc. then followed by drop in subscriber numbers, server merges and in 6 or so moths, only like 10 servers left with a small (yet dedicated) playerbase.