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Why Guild Wars 2 Will be a Revolutionary Game: UPDATED
blueflame8
Member Posts: 11
in Guild Wars 2
I just wrote an article: about my top 5 features of Guild Wars 2 and why it shall reinvent the genre : http://gameolosophy.com/games/rpg/guild-wars/why-guild-wars-2-will-be-a-revolutionary-game-updated/
Does anyone agree/disagree? What are your opinions? I personally can't wait!
Comments
Wouldn't say the combat is innovative. It has been done before.
The game will be great, no doubt about it but it isn't going to be revolutionary either.
"Revolutionary" might be taking it a bit far, but it is trying some new and innovative ideas, such as the full banishment of the trinity by having no dedicated healer. I also dig the "downed" system, allowing you to fight when on taken down, and to be revived by anyone when downed.
If Guild Wars 2 is as MMO as it looks, then that will make it pretty revolutionary in and of itself, in my books. A truly free to play MMORPG with strictly cosmetic micro transactions?
.. But in a good way.
Txs OP: Enjoyed reading that. Here's my CC's (constructive criticisms):
1. Dynamic Events:
i) Mobs < Mob Hubs < Quests < Public Quest... Rifts < v) Dynamic Events
So it's more an evolution than a revolution because it's incremental improvement. If it was i) - v) that would be revolution. Now that's just one angle, another angle (more speculative): Will DEs really FEEL different experience and will they BE systematically different from Quests? If so then we can say they are revolutionary, indeed. However considering there has been insubstantial experience on them (imo) they could actually be closer to PQs ie you are still quest-like things: kill ten of these skin-headed guys etc... but now they are more mobile and each quest chains to another smoothly...
Conclusion: Premature to say it's revo > evo.
2. Combat: A lot of similarities can be found in other MMOs, I heard said by other forumites who did the dirty on these games (so I did not have to) and reported back. It's still very class-like instead of true open combat based on skill-tree combinations. However my view is that combat in GW2 could and I mean could serious kick some ass GW2's Thief vs (i dunno) WAR's Flame Wizard is going to chop him into confetti. ^_^
3. Philophy/Overall: This is where I fully agree with your post: ArenaNet are making quote-unquote: "8 games within 1 game" where each game is going to be more polished (aimed at) than the equivalent game it is naturally compared to:
eg profession skills: Animations, de facto archetype, actiony, potency
eg lore/story: VO-work, PS branches
eg graphics and art: Combined style pervades everything from UI to cutscenes to the game-world
eg DEs...
... so much more but it takes forever to achieve this : (
4. Summary: It's HYPERBOLE to state any given thing makes/will make GW2 revolutionary partly because that is a retrospective conclusion and NOTHING has been TESTED so far (and hubris is terrible to those who deal in it)... but: "the boy sure done gud, although he could still flunk the final"
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
It won't matter if it's revolutianary or not as long as people continue to play any new game like they are used to playing WoW they ain't gonna be satisfied with it or any other new game for that matter. This WoW mindset that Blizzard has instilled in people has got to stop!
@MumboJumbo - Yes I would yes it is more then simple "reskin" of kill 10 this or that. For instance lets say a group of evil mobs attacks the village. This event got dynamically spawned when I entered the area. I don't feel like or don't have time to deal with it so I leave. The mob will attack the village, they will burn it down, and they will capture the friendly NPC including the vendors. Later on a group of players come by and they will need to rescue the villagers, put out the fires, and drive out the enemy mobs, now they can sell there junk loot.
Also some other cool things is lets say you are running along and see dead NPC on the ground. You rez them (all classes can rez) and turns out this NPC is a reputation vendor. Now you can buy some buffs. Throughout the world there are little things scattered around that spawn links to other things. See an interesting statue of a bird? Click on it and receive a little riddle. Answer enough riddles and gain reputation points. Then head back to the guy you rezzed earlier and turn it in for buffs.
Combat itself may not be revolutionary in the actual mechanics but from limited time I had playing it, probably one of the smoothest combat mechanics I have ever played. Being able to cast on the move was great, allows you to really examine your surroundings use it to your advantage.
EDIT: They were not actually called reputation points. Unfortunately I don't remember what they were called and I don't even remember them being mentioned so I can't even look it up.
I would have agreed with you until I saw the thief vids. That class flirts wit FPS combat in a otherwise semi turnbased MMO, the way you constantly have to jump in, attack, dodge, jump out and so on is something at least I never seen.
I dunno if I would call it revolutionary but innovative is the right word. No tanking is fun but not really something new, self heals withno dedicated healer is new and it will be interesting to see how it works in dungeons, but the thief class is really a total makeover of a class that have been bad in MMOs so far.
Thanks zaran: It's g8 that you have played (so lucky -_-). You have a REAL IMPRESSION on dynamic events as well as "some" considered info on the mechanics/systems they use to BE different also. Both are important to discuss whether they are revo v evo.
Now if more ppl pile in with similar conclusions on DEs the evidence is pointing to the OPs motion (!). If that occurs we increase the stress test and need to ask if this impression on players is only a passing impression or a lasting impression or whether DEs really maintain the illusion of a dynamic/changin world where there was once quests... "quests?...what are you talking about?!"
I compiled a list of quotes that describe DEs but until I have the luxury/privelege to try them I remain firmly in the skepticals camp on these. Here's a link but along with your impression we need:
1/ REPEATABLE (4th,8th attempt & so on it is different each time or fresh each time for you),
2/ REPLICABLE (many other ppl experience this) &
3/ LASTING (the overall effect and variety of DEs not just a few all add up)
...differences from the quest system. Put that wasy, there much evidence needed still. Here's that link of quotes on Dynamic Events.
edit: Karme pts?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I had the same feeling going into it about DE getting stale or doing the same 5 over and over again. I think the biggest changer is the scaling as well as what players happen to be there. Since there is no need to group you will end up playing along side other people. If there is an elementist who is dropping firewalls the tatics used by everyone will drastically change then lets say a guardian dropping shields. Also how well the players play TOGETHER. The NPC will work together and if the players can't they will get wiped out. So if the same exact event might even change throught the same fight. Also depending on how the event itself is happening there will be multiple layers happening. Best way to describe this:
I am running along and see a group of friendly NPC. They are gathering together and are talking about pushing back a group of enemy NPC. After standing there listening to them I get a "quest" in my tracker to push back the enemy. I rush in there and there are a bunch of seige towers. I get a second "quest" in my tracker to destroy the seige towers. So now I am trying to do both. Meanwhile another player runs by and decides to join in on the action, and they get both "quests". Well the NPC scale up and spawn more, faster, and different types. They also start using group tactics on us. We doing ok trying to help each other but not that great. I manage to get down one of the towers and suddenly I get a third "quest" to stop the engineers from rebuilding the towers. Meanwhile another person shows up and everything scales up again. Unfortunately everything turned into complete chaos, the enemies have us seperated and one by one we are dying. Of course we are blindly zerging back in to the fight just to get there in time to watch the others die and have the enemy focus their attacks on you.
I never got to see how it ended because on one of my trips back I ran into an NPC trapper who was talking about some mother lizard or something and suddenly I had a new entry in my tracker and some really large evil aggressive lizard chasing me. So what is a Norn Elementalist to do. Thats right freeze it, then circle kite while blasting it with fireballs and using self heals the second it came off cool downs. Kinda funny cause I drew a few Areana Net guys around me for this fight. They couldn't believe I solo'd it and said that were going to reroll some elementalist and do the same tactics.
Lol! Those ArenaNet guys have their work cut out getting the scaling challenge just right without some lone, scouthero riding in town messing things up for them! : D That's damn interesting: Key impression is sense of playing with others is the big factor ie it's truly "MASSIVELY"? :cool: May have to book my gamescon ticket after reading about the combat you describe. ^ ^
Anyway it's a big undertaking to get all these DEs running smoothly, but the scaling and changeable experiences seem on the right tracks. The variety that they can bring is perhaps the biggest factor ie Some talk of Rifts is that they are random occurence but they are essentially the same things? (not up to speed on Rift tbh). This is what I hope DEs avoids.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Thanks everyone for the insightful posts. I'll take your opinions on board! I've also just read it through and am a bit embarassed about the amount of spelling/grammatical mistakes I made - so i've edited it.
Please do not create Multiple versions of the same thread in different forums. Moving to the GW2 forum.
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
The combat is a small upgrade from the combat in Asheron's Call. It's definantly not as advanced as the combat in darkfall. Darkfalls combat is even more skill based than this. So if anything its a step back for the genre. Also No dedicated healers is pretty much a staple in all sandbox mmo's since the begging of time so thats not really new either. There arn't golden arrows marking quest in really any sandbox mmo, although this questing system is more advanced than any I have seen before. The world creation is definantly a few step backs from Asheron's Call which I feel is the best mmo gameworld ever made and is completely seamless and wonderful. I can't stand instances at all for any circumstance. Theres no penalty for dieing in pvp and no reason to pvp. Just more mini game stuff that doesn't really get the blood pumping like a game with real pvp, (UO, AC, EVE, Darkfall, MOrtal online etc.) Just look at DCUO supose to have good combat but pvp is completely pointless as theres no risk or reward for pvping just mindless mini games. I don't even consider WoW type games like Guild wars or rift to even have pvp in them. I know there is player vs player combat but it's pointless and not an important part of the game at all. I am biased towards sandbox's obviously but It baffles me that people think that fps type combat is something new or no dedicated healers.
To address your last point first: Sandboxes are a whole nother can of worms; what GW2 is doing is relatively new and generally unheard of for a THEMEPARK game, which is what it is. If it were common among themeparks, there would not be so much wailing and gnashing of teeth about the absence of the holy trinity that can be seen on these forums.
As for your second to last point point about GW not having PvP in it: hilarious, considering that half the people who inquire about the game consider it to be a pvp-only endeavor. When you can pvp from the first instance of the game without partaking in any pve whatsoever, and win up to $100,000 doing so, PvP is most definitely a viable game mechanic, even if it's not done the way you would like it.
You can't be serious.... AC?
And the pure fact you're biased towards sandbox games makes your post completely irrelevant. But hey, I like soccer but I can't stand basketball, therefore the world of sport took a few steps backwards, the same moment, when someone picked up a ball with their hands. Right?
Eat me!
Fail.
Just one note i want to make.
Gameolosophy is a badly coined word. I suppose it comes from the word Philosophy. But "Philosophy" comes from two ancient greek words: filèin (love) + sofia (wisdom) = filosofia, meaning love for wisdom. Thus, "lo" part in gameolosophy is redundant. The correct term would be Gameosophy (Wisdom of games/gaming).
Yeah, i like to nitpick. :P
Revolutionary, NO! Guild Wars 2 wont reinvent the way of making games(MMORPGs), but EVOLUTIONARY, it does take a few steps forward taking broken features and trying to make it better but othe features are just the same with a new face.
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
"PvP is most definitely a viable game mechanic, even if it's not done the way you would like it."
PvP is just a mindless mini game with no penalties. Ask any pvper what games currently provide a pvp experience. They will say ASheron's Call , EvE, mortal online and darkfall or they are playing mount and blade. If theres no penalty for dieing, the game has too much safe zone, and the world can't be shaped by pvp than you shouldn't consider it a pvp game or a pvp server. It's just a side thought that has no impact on the game or world and all servers should be considered pve servers. Nobody will be playing this game for the pvp.
Now you're on the verge of trolling. What part of sandbox =/= themepark don't you understand? If you intend to devote a part of your life grinding gear to become competitive and then go PK some newbies to strip them down, be my guest. But that's YOUR definition of PvP, with which the majority of players will disagree with. So it's obvious that GW2 is just not going to be a game for you. Get over it.
Also, is Counter Strike a mindless minigame too? It has no DP, yet millions of players play it. So I'm sorry to disappoint you - people like different things..
Eat me!
I'd like to invite you out to lunch, but I see you're already there.
PvP isn't about penalties, it's about pitting your skills against opponents who aren't confined by the rules of artificial intelligence. That's all it is. People play it because they like the challenge of facing off against other people who are unpredictable and use non-linear strategy. Then there's also the social aspect which, in the best cases, promotes goodnatured competitiveness among the participants.
As an example, sitting down to play chess against another person is rewarding enough on its own for the vast majority of people who do so. No one needs to die at the end of it for it to have been considered worthwhile. The reward for the winner is being able to walk away from the board knowing they were the superior player. That's PvP in it's purest form and millions of people around the world who engage in it don't need the artificial penalties to enjoy it, that you seem to be hung up on.
By the way, all servers in GW2 *are* considered to be PvE servers. Which doesn't preclude areas of it being made available for players to go toe-to-toe against one another. Apparently that's not enough. So really, why don't you drop the charade and say outright that your beef is that the game isn't a FFA open-world PvP gankathon? At least then you can quickly and easily be dismissed.
Not always. LONG LIVE SHADOWBANE!!!
Guildwars still have hundreds of thousands PvP only players. I bet they still consider themselves PvP players and GW more or less only have arenas and Guild Vs Guild.
Add the mists which is a huge open area and GW2 will have enough to attract a lot of PvP players. The mists actually do have impact on the gameworld (you will get buffs and access to certain places if your side is doing well in the mists) even though it isn't as much as in sandbox games.
Some people prefer this kind of PvP other prefer UOs type of PvP, the problem here is that you consider the type you prefer as "real PvP"and that is just wrong.
I been playing both types and frankly don't care which method they use as long as the game is fun, fast paced and well done. And GW2 seems in some ways similar to DaoC, the only real good PvP game out there in my book.
I will still not really make up my mind about the game until I try it of course.
Sorry but I can't agree with you trying to strip down DE's into smaller components like that. What DE has is "cause and effect". Through Dynamic events the player is given the capability to make pseudo-permanent changes to his/her world. On paper this is indeed revolutionary (IMO), but like you, I have to play it in order to be fully convinced. I'm still reserving some skeptiscism for myself.
Do people really think this is new?
As someone already said, a sandbox is almost entirely different in genre to a typical MMO, I'm sure the purpose of this thread is comparing it to the typical MMO flavor, which is themebox. When sandboxes become mainstream, then maybe they'll get included in the comparisons, but for now it's probably better to just assume no one's talking about sandbox games when threads like this are brought up. Redundant as they are.
Guild Wars is also well-known for its PvP, hosting global tournaments the likes of which most 'pvp sandbox' MMOs only wish they could. You know very little about what you're talking about, so it's best you do a bit of research before typing.
As for this thread, I'm a huge fan of GW2, but even I feel this is a bit like troll baiting. There are already a lot of threads about why this will be revolutionary, and no new information is given. It's just more kinder for the flame. Relax and let the game speak for itself.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."