To those that say you never catch up. Go on the EVE Wiki, pick something you want to specialize at (ship, occupation, etc) and download EVEmon. You can queue up all the skills on it to see how long it takes to raise them. Most likely, the skills you need to fly that ship perfect won't take more than 6 months. You've caught up that easy.
I have said this exact same thing in several posts already AlysenMinase. I'm sick of these posts. I want to see EvEMon links. I want to see why a brand spanking new pod pilot can be viable in pvp in a t1 frigate or destroyer or battlecruiser. I want to see tangible results. {mod edit}
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Total time: 10 days, 14 hours, 2 minutes, 8 seconds
Total time is for a newly created minmatar pilot, times for other races may vary.
This is for a decent T2-fit Rifter, viable in pvp. And while one is waiting for the skills to train, one can substitute the t2 with t1 stuff. I've had decent sucess with said fit - especially in small-group pvp - but even in solo pvp it's viable (if you know what you're doing... :P). It's also a fairly cheap skillset (and fitting), so it's pretty good.
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Total time: 10 days, 14 hours, 2 minutes, 8 seconds
Total time is for a newly created minmatar pilot, times for other races may vary.
This is for a decent T2-fit Rifter, viable in pvp. And while one is waiting for the skills to train, one can substitute the t2 with t1 stuff. I've had decent sucess with said fit - especially in small-group pvp - but even in solo pvp it's viable (if you know what you're doing... :P). It's also a fairly cheap skillset (and fitting), so it's pretty good.
This skill plan here puts you at a very significant disadvantage and is very gimped. To level the playing field with the veterans, you need dozens of skills at level 5. As an example, focusing on drones alone which is just one minor minor component of your repetoire:
Drone Durabilty V
Drone Navigation V
Drone Sharpshooting V
Scout Drone Operation V
XXX Drone Specialization V
Drone Interfacing V
Not to mention the dozens of support skills that materially improve your performance, literally dozens of electronics, engineering, and gunnery skills that need to be to 5 in order to match the veterans.
Sure, you can argue any one of these is not that important. Hey it only gives you a 5% advantage in one area right? Well, 1.05^30 is an absolutely huge advantage. And no I can't post an EVEmon skill plan because I don't play EVE anymore and don't have this planning software utility installed.
And sure you can group up to gain advantage in numbers but it doesn't change the facts regarding having all skills, even marginally important ones because it adds up fast, at 5 gives you an advantage.
You can disagree with me, that having more skill points doesn't matter, but just tell the veterans their skill points will be reset to 0 and see if they think it matters then.
I've never once told somebody not to play EVE because of this inherent and permanent disadvantage they will have, but I think they should understand what they are getting into and by all means do the free trial and see if you like it. As many veterans say, you don't have to "win" at EVE to have fun. But you should at least understand how it works and what you are up against.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
. I want to see why a brand spanking new pod pilot can be viable in pvp in a t1 frigate or destroyer or battlecruiser. I want to see tangible results. {mod edit}
hehe, well personally I wouldnt say brand spanking new. I made an alt just for FW years ago and I can get a rifter ready in 4 days
But your right, its very silly to say you can pvp competativly off the bat, and its not really reccomended unless your joining Eve and going straight into a corp full of existing friends.
But to be honest, a large portion of players coming to Eve and stay never pvp, there is a lot more to Eve! You dont need tons of skills to help with mining, crafting or exploration.. you dont need all that many skills to play the market, or freigt goods around to make profit.
Hardly any skills required for planetary interaction and there is plenty of PvE to be getting on with
Total time: 10 days, 14 hours, 2 minutes, 8 seconds
Total time is for a newly created minmatar pilot, times for other races may vary.
This is for a decent T2-fit Rifter, viable in pvp. And while one is waiting for the skills to train, one can substitute the t2 with t1 stuff. I've had decent sucess with said fit - especially in small-group pvp - but even in solo pvp it's viable (if you know what you're doing... :P). It's also a fairly cheap skillset (and fitting), so it's pretty good.
This skill plan here puts you at a very significant disadvantage and is very gimped. To level the playing field with the veterans, you need dozens of skills at level 5. As an example, focusing on drones alone which is just one minor minor component of your repetoire:
Drone Durabilty V
Drone Navigation V
Drone Sharpshooting V
Scout Drone Operation V
XXX Drone Specialization V
Drone Interfacing V
Not to mention the dozens of support skills that materially improve your performance, literally dozens of electronics, engineering, and gunnery skills that need to be to 5 in order to match the veterans.
Sure, you can argue any one of these is not that important. Hey it only gives you a 5% advantage in one area right? Well, 1.05^30 is an absolutely huge advantage. And no I can't post an EVEmon skill plan because I don't play EVE anymore and don't have this planning software utility installed.
And sure you can group up to gain advantage in numbers but it doesn't change the facts regarding having all skills, even marginally important ones because it adds up fast, at 5 gives you an advantage.
You can disagree with me, that having more skill points doesn't matter, but just tell the veterans their skill points will be reset to 0 and see if they think it matters then.
I've never once told somebody not to play EVE because of this inherent and permanent disadvantage they will have, but I think they should understand what they are getting into and by all means do the free trial and see if you like it. As many veterans say, you don't have to "win" at EVE to have fun. But you should at least understand how it works and what you are up against.
You sit on your gate with your Level 5 Drone Boat, and I suddenly warp in at 100+KM and start sniping and your drones are totally useless, they can't reach me. (even with my pathetic level 4 gun skills) And if I manage to land a jam on you, you'll never get in the fight.
Boom, you're dead unless you think to warp to the gate and flee.
You are correct, you certainly are more powerful than I, but it just doesn't really matter.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You are correct, you certainly are more powerful than I, but it just doesn't really matter.
You well know that the situation you described is purly circumstancial and hypothetical.
You would have to know he was there to warp in at 100, which implies pre-determined knowledge, intelligence, you'd have to be at war or just roaming low-sec.., He could be a bait, he could be with a corp on the otherside of the gate, he could have bombers cloaked nearby, damn, he could even have sentry drones.
Point is you cant say you would definatly win in your imaginary situatuion, there are countless possabilities! Just assuming that you will be out on your own and randomly encounter someone else on their own is a bit childish and niave
In Eve the battle is over well before it begins, no matter what skills you've trained up or what you happen to be flying in you'll always lose to someone who has superior knowledge.
I'm done arguing. I am tired of getting warned about excessive trolling when I asked for someone to simply load a skillplan that would make a new pilot ready for pvp. If you think you need so many level V skills in all of those skills to be competitive you fall in one of the following:
1. you no longer play eve(by your own admission) and have forgotten.
2. you left EvE b/c of some reason, and now you have a bad taste about the game, thus you are letting new players know your experience by telling them something that you believe.
3. you are looking for a response, which you have gotten.
I choose to ignore these posts on this board about this topic. You are incapable of understanding mine, along with others numerous examples that were given.
Good luck.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
I'm done arguing. I am tired of getting warned about excessive trolling when I asked for someone to simply load a skillplan that would make a new pilot ready for pvp. If you think you need so many level V skills in all of those skills to be competitive you fall in one of the following:
1. you no longer play eve(by your own admission) and have forgotten.
2. you left EvE b/c of some reason, and now you have a bad taste about the game, thus you are letting new players know your experience by telling them something that you believe.
3. you are looking for a response, which you have gotten.
I choose to ignore these posts on this board about this topic. You are incapable of understanding mine, along with others numerous examples that were given.
Good luck.
Let's just agree that new players should do the trial and determine for themselves whether they want to stay or not. That's what a free trial is for, after all, and I think we can at least agree on that.
But I am fairly certain nothing I have posted is incorrect: you WILL be playing against veterans with level V skills in all of those areas and they WILL have an inherent advantage because of this.
And despite your constant accusations that I am trolling or "incapable of understanding" etc I'll once again turn the other cheek and not respond in kind.
But note that I do fully understand your point of view. It basically boils down to: "Just get in a larger group to gain advantage and don't worry about comparisons between individual characters." But the obvious response to that is "What if the veterans are also in a large group?" or alternatively, if you yourself join a group of veterans "What is your role as a noob in that group of veterans?" The answer to both of those questions is, well, having more skill points gives the veterans the advantage once again.
It really isn't that complicated and it makes me chuckle a bit when I hear somebody say with a straight face that having more and better skills doesn't give you an advantage. Any way you break it down, you will find that having a multi-year edge in skill point accumulation gives you an advantage in any apples-to-apples scenario you can concoct.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I'm done arguing. I am tired of getting warned about excessive trolling when I asked for someone to simply load a skillplan that would make a new pilot ready for pvp. If you think you need so many level V skills in all of those skills to be competitive you fall in one of the following:
1. you no longer play eve(by your own admission) and have forgotten.
2. you left EvE b/c of some reason, and now you have a bad taste about the game, thus you are letting new players know your experience by telling them something that you believe.
3. you are looking for a response, which you have gotten.
I po(a)sted a skillplan! Without many lv5 skills, even! (There was what? One lv5 skill? Of course, I did leave out a number of support skills, which I probably shouldn't have, but meh! They won't take THAT long to train, maybe another 10 days)
But meh. Look at GS, they've been successive with having new players in pvp. Even if the new player was <10 days old. (Which, no matter what one might think of them otherwise, is admirable)
But I can follow the three points you mention, and think it's a problem with a lot of "vets" in eve. Especially the ones who've never left highsec, and are doing lv4 mission ad nauseam.
I know a few people who've basically just started the game, and they're doing (insert repetitive, mindnumbing task here) while they wait for a shitton of skills to get to lv5 before they even want to consider doing something else ("something else" not even being pvp). Why are they doing this? They've been told by vets ("friends" or corpmates) that they have to do so.
But you (and others posting in the samme manner) are right. These kinds of posts should enrage any vet worth their salt. Especially since there'll be a lot of trolls [read people who aren't vets] that will fill people with garbage.
That's why people like you and I should keep up the fight. Otherwise we'll see the amount of new players decline, because they think the learning curve isn't really a curve, but more of a straight, vertical, line.
There are a few relatively respectable Eve Online people on the MMORPG.com forums. I pray they keep up the fight.
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I'm done arguing. I am tired of getting warned about excessive trolling when I asked for someone to simply load a skillplan that would make a new pilot ready for pvp. If you think you need so many level V skills in all of those skills to be competitive you fall in one of the following:
1. you no longer play eve(by your own admission) and have forgotten.
2. you left EvE b/c of some reason, and now you have a bad taste about the game, thus you are letting new players know your experience by telling them something that you believe.
3. you are looking for a response, which you have gotten.
I choose to ignore these posts on this board about this topic. You are incapable of understanding mine, along with others numerous examples that were given.
Good luck.
Let's just agree that new players should do the trial and determine for themselves whether they want to stay or not. That's what a free trial is for, after all, and I think we can at least agree on that.
But I am fairly certain nothing I have posted is incorrect: you WILL be playing against veterans with level V skills in all of those areas and they WILL have an inherent advantage because of this.
And despite your constant accusations that I am trolling or "incapable of understanding" etc I'll once again turn the other cheek and not respond in kind.
But note that I do fully understand your point of view. It basically boils down to: "Just get in a larger group to gain advantage and don't worry about comparisons between individual characters." But the obvious response to that is "What if the veterans are also in a large group?" or alternatively, if you yourself join a group of veterans "What is your role as a noob in that group of veterans?" The answer to both of those questions is, well, having more skill points gives the veterans the advantage once again.
It really isn't that complicated and it makes me chuckle a bit when I hear somebody say with a straight face that having more and better skills doesn't give you an advantage. Any way you break it down, you will find that having a multi-year edge in skill point accumulation gives you an advantage in any apples-to-apples scenario you can concoct.
I've been following this thread, and I'm just so confused on your logic at some points. Why do you insist new players should be able to win against everything versus vets? Isn't that the idea? Someone who has played more has the upper hand in knowledge, as well as more advancement?
Sure the noobs will eventually catch up to the vets in specilization, but honestly, why should a noob 1 v 1 a vet and always have a fair fight against them? Vets should know better, there are no fair fights in eve, unless they were in good fun.
Saying a noob will have an uphill battle against vets while fighting is one thing, saying they can never reach the same combat level is just stupid.
They can train up the same skills the vet have, and only so many skills can effect one specific situation. Sure there are lots of secondary skills, but once those are trained, what else is there? You're flying a HAC with all the support skills for the ships and modules maxed out, anyone else with those skills will be on a even playing ground sp wise. It doesn't matter how many skill points you have in frigates, or other weapons. Those will not effect the current situation of that fight, only so many skills are used at a time.
I'm done arguing. I am tired of getting warned about excessive trolling when I asked for someone to simply load a skillplan that would make a new pilot ready for pvp. If you think you need so many level V skills in all of those skills to be competitive you fall in one of the following:
1. you no longer play eve(by your own admission) and have forgotten.
2. you left EvE b/c of some reason, and now you have a bad taste about the game, thus you are letting new players know your experience by telling them something that you believe.
3. you are looking for a response, which you have gotten.
I choose to ignore these posts on this board about this topic. You are incapable of understanding mine, along with others numerous examples that were given.
Good luck.
Let's just agree that new players should do the trial and determine for themselves whether they want to stay or not. That's what a free trial is for, after all, and I think we can at least agree on that.
But I am fairly certain nothing I have posted is incorrect: you WILL be playing against veterans with level V skills in all of those areas and they WILL have an inherent advantage because of this.
And despite your constant accusations that I am trolling or "incapable of understanding" etc I'll once again turn the other cheek and not respond in kind.
But note that I do fully understand your point of view. It basically boils down to: "Just get in a larger group to gain advantage and don't worry about comparisons between individual characters." But the obvious response to that is "What if the veterans are also in a large group?" or alternatively, if you yourself join a group of veterans "What is your role as a noob in that group of veterans?" The answer to both of those questions is, well, having more skill points gives the veterans the advantage once again.
It really isn't that complicated and it makes me chuckle a bit when I hear somebody say with a straight face that having more and better skills doesn't give you an advantage. Any way you break it down, you will find that having a multi-year edge in skill point accumulation gives you an advantage in any apples-to-apples scenario you can concoct.
I've been following this thread, and I'm just so confused on your logic at some points. Why do you insist new players should be able to win against everything versus vets? Isn't that the idea? Someone who has played more has the upper hand in knowledge, as well as more advancement?
Sure the noobs will eventually catch up to the vets in specilization, but honestly, why should a noob 1 v 1 a vet and always have a fair fight against them? Vets should know better, there are no fair fights in eve, unless they were in good fun.
Saying a noob will have an uphill battle against vets while fighting is one thing, saying they can never reach the same combat level is just stupid.
They can train up the same skills the vet have, and only so many skills can effect one specific situation. Sure there are lots of secondary skills, but once those are trained, what else is there? You're flying a HAC with all the support skills for the ships and modules maxed out, anyone else with those skills will be on a even playing ground sp wise. It doesn't matter how many skill points you have in frigates, or other weapons. Those will not effect the current situation of that fight, only so many skills are used at a time.
It is a matter of time frames. A brand spanking new noob of course will be trounced in any MMO. But in pretty much any other MMO out there, a noob can even the playing field probably within 6 months. And if they actually dedicate more time to playing, they can speed it up more which is intuitively how it should work (in my opinion)
In EVE a noob cannot start to even the playing field until after maybe 18 months, and dedicating more time can not speed this up at all (which is just an odd concept to me, which is why I propose buying skillpoints with ISK). And by even playing field I mean just that, NO inherent disadvantages: ALL releveant skills at 5 and flying the BEST ships. And you are downplaying exactly how many skills there are that impact survivability/combat, and how long it will take you to get them all to 5.
And sure some say being at an even playing field within 6 months is "impatient" and "instant gratifications" etc. But 6 months is a long time, especially with the number of other games out there many might also be interested in, and the limited budgets some people may have. I think people just need to be aware of this rather than find out 6 months into the game that they still have a long way to go. Maybe that concept even appeals to some people, and I'm not telling anybody not to play: Quite the contrary actually, I encourage everybody to try it.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Originally posted by gainesvilleg In EVE a noob cannot start to even the playing field until after maybe 18 months, and dedicating more time can not speed this up at all (which is just an odd concept to me, which is why I propose buying skillpoints with ISK). And by even playing field I mean just that, NO inherent disadvantages: ALL releveant skills at 5 and flying the BEST ships. And you are downplaying exactly how many skills there are that impact survivability/combat, and how long it will take you to get them all to 5.
This claim was rectified countless times already but why bother with reality and facts when you can do your theorycrafting...
I just hope that anyone new to the game will realize how off your claims are.
In EVE a noob cannot start to even the playing field until after maybe 18 months, and dedicating more time can not speed this up at all (which is just an odd concept to me, which is why I propose buying skillpoints with ISK). And by even playing field I mean just that, NO inherent disadvantages: ALL releveant skills at 5 and flying the BEST ships. And you are downplaying exactly how many skills there are that impact survivability/combat, and how long it will take you to get them all to 5.
This claim was rectified countless times already but why bother with reality and facts when you can do your theorycrafting...
I just hope that anyone new to the game will realize how off your claims are.
"This claim was rectified"? What, because some people saying they disagree? Nobody has demonstrated a skill plan that gets you to flying the best heavy assault cruiser and/or battleship with all relevant primary and support skills at 5. Just lots of Rifter examples that I've read, which all the noobs like to fly. Or lots of examples that show you can turn the key in the ignition in one of the premier ships, rather than showing you can fly them with all relevant skills at 5 like the veterans will have.
Why should new players only hear from cheerleaders of the game? Look, I personally loved my time in EVE, but that doesn't change the facts about the extreme advantage the multi-year vets will have over any new player. People who don't know how the skill system in EVE works shouldn't be kept in the dark about this.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Originally posted by gainesvilleg "This claim was rectified"? What, because some people saying they disagree? Nobody has demonstrated a skill plan that gets you to flying the best heavy assault cruiser and/or battleship with all relevant primary and support skills at 5.
You got it messed up.
The only person here is you claiming that you need "the best heavy assault cruiser and/or battleship with all relevant primary and support skills at 5" and it is you failing to provide any arguments to your claims that you truly need it.
There are no cheerleaders, there are people who knows and can back up their claims and those who don't know and can't back up anything they say.
"This claim was rectified"? What, because some people saying they disagree? Nobody has demonstrated a skill plan that gets you to flying the best heavy assault cruiser and/or battleship with all relevant primary and support skills at 5.
You got it messed up.
The only person here is you claiming that you need "the best heavy assault cruiser and/or battleship with all relevant primary and support skills at 5" and it is you failing to provide any arguments to your claims that you truly need it.
There are no cheerleaders, there are people who knows and can back up their claims and those who don't know and can't back up anything they say.
There is a difference between "truly needing it" and what I'm saying. All those who argue against what I am saying change the conversation away from "equality" to simply "being able to play."
I'm talking about an even playing field. I'm not talking about just being able to compete and get some kills. I'm talking about parity and equality. Why should new players never be able to reach equality? You can play chess without a rook and still win, but why should you have to play without the rook that all the veterans will have?
Lets make it even more simple. Which is better, a 20% damage bonus to your turrets or a 25% damage bonus to your turrets??? I really can't wait to hear your answer.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Originally posted by gainesvilleg Which is better, a 20% damage bonus to your turrets or a 25% damage bonus to your turrets??? I really can't wait to hear your answer.
A bonus is better in hands that can utilize it better.
Originally posted by gainesvilleg Optimization of skill paths and fittings was very fun for me. Getting max stats out of fixed CPU/power/slot types oh my god it was great.
Running the numbers isn't the same as actually taking your ship into an engagement. A factor you are not counting in in your theorycrafting.
Once you actually do that, you will find out that lvl 5 skills do not matter as much and the numbers give you only very general and limited hint how the ship will perform.
Which is better, a 20% damage bonus to your turrets or a 25% damage bonus to your turrets??? I really can't wait to hear your answer.
A bonus is better in hands that can utilize it better.
Thank you, because I think this very clearly summarizes the debate we are having. New players can now judge which is the truer statement in their world view:
1) A 25% damage bonus to turrets is better than a 20% damage bonus to turrets
or
2) It doesn't matter, it only matters who is the better player
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Originally posted by gainesvilleg Thank you, because I think this very clearly summarizes the debate we are having. New players can now judge which is the truer statement in their world view: 1) A 25% damage bonus to turrets is better than a 20% damage bonus to turrets or 2) It doesn't matter, it only matters who is the better player
Good piloting and fitting make way more difference than 5% dmg bonus...
EDIT: Meh, not worthy and pointless discussing with someone whose supposed knowledge consisting of sheer assumptions with no real experience...
Thank you, because I think this very clearly summarizes the debate we are having. New players can now judge which is the truer statement in their world view:
1) A 25% damage bonus to turrets is better than a 20% damage bonus to turrets
or
2) It doesn't matter, it only matters who is the better player
Good piloting and fitting make way more difference than 5% dmg bonus...
EDIT:
Meh, not worthy and pointless discussing with someone whose supposed knowledge consisting of sheer assumptions with no real experience...
First of all, 5% damage bonus will just be one of the possibly dozens of skills the veterans will have an advantage on. The advantage adds up very quick. Think 1.05^N quick. And as for your fitting, that is also skill dependent.
And I actually have plenty of experience. Recent experience no, but I don't believe things have changed all that much since I played. And I have kept up with some of the recent changes since I am currently MMOless and am looking for something to pass the time until some of the releases later this year.
But I think the debate is clear now, we just will never see eye to eye and that is fine. All perspectives are valuable to somebody trying to learn about the game...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I'm done arguing. I am tired of getting warned about excessive trolling when I asked for someone to simply load a skillplan that would make a new pilot ready for pvp. If you think you need so many level V skills in all of those skills to be competitive you fall in one of the following:
1. you no longer play eve(by your own admission) and have forgotten.
2. you left EvE b/c of some reason, and now you have a bad taste about the game, thus you are letting new players know your experience by telling them something that you believe.
3. you are looking for a response, which you have gotten.
I choose to ignore these posts on this board about this topic. You are incapable of understanding mine, along with others numerous examples that were given.
Good luck.
Let's just agree that new players should do the trial and determine for themselves whether they want to stay or not. That's what a free trial is for, after all, and I think we can at least agree on that.
But I am fairly certain nothing I have posted is incorrect: you WILL be playing against veterans with level V skills in all of those areas and they WILL have an inherent advantage because of this.
And despite your constant accusations that I am trolling or "incapable of understanding" etc I'll once again turn the other cheek and not respond in kind.
But note that I do fully understand your point of view. It basically boils down to: "Just get in a larger group to gain advantage and don't worry about comparisons between individual characters." But the obvious response to that is "What if the veterans are also in a large group?" or alternatively, if you yourself join a group of veterans "What is your role as a noob in that group of veterans?" The answer to both of those questions is, well, having more skill points gives the veterans the advantage once again.
It really isn't that complicated and it makes me chuckle a bit when I hear somebody say with a straight face that having more and better skills doesn't give you an advantage. Any way you break it down, you will find that having a multi-year edge in skill point accumulation gives you an advantage in any apples-to-apples scenario you can concoct.
I've been following this thread, and I'm just so confused on your logic at some points. Why do you insist new players should be able to win against everything versus vets? Isn't that the idea? Someone who has played more has the upper hand in knowledge, as well as more advancement?
Sure the noobs will eventually catch up to the vets in specilization, but honestly, why should a noob 1 v 1 a vet and always have a fair fight against them? Vets should know better, there are no fair fights in eve, unless they were in good fun.
Saying a noob will have an uphill battle against vets while fighting is one thing, saying they can never reach the same combat level is just stupid.
They can train up the same skills the vet have, and only so many skills can effect one specific situation. Sure there are lots of secondary skills, but once those are trained, what else is there? You're flying a HAC with all the support skills for the ships and modules maxed out, anyone else with those skills will be on a even playing ground sp wise. It doesn't matter how many skill points you have in frigates, or other weapons. Those will not effect the current situation of that fight, only so many skills are used at a time.
It is a matter of time frames. A brand spanking new noob of course will be trounced in any MMO. But in pretty much any other MMO out there, a noob can even the playing field probably within 6 months. And if they actually dedicate more time to playing, they can speed it up more which is intuitively how it should work (in my opinion)
In EVE a noob cannot start to even the playing field until after maybe 18 months, and dedicating more time can not speed this up at all (which is just an odd concept to me, which is why I propose buying skillpoints with ISK). And by even playing field I mean just that, NO inherent disadvantages: ALL releveant skills at 5 and flying the BEST ships. And you are downplaying exactly how many skills there are that impact survivability/combat, and how long it will take you to get them all to 5.
And sure some say being at an even playing field within 6 months is "impatient" and "instant gratifications" etc. But 6 months is a long time, especially with the number of other games out there many might also be interested in, and the limited budgets some people may have. I think people just need to be aware of this rather than find out 6 months into the game that they still have a long way to go. Maybe that concept even appeals to some people, and I'm not telling anybody not to play: Quite the contrary actually, I encourage everybody to try it.
Not being able to do something to speed up skill training bothered me, but not enough to never play it. Some people can't stand it, those don't play. =/
It's not like there are only vets out there. There are still noobs without every skill to V, the game keeps you subscribed for a long time. It might not be the best method, but it works for CCP. They took my money for ~3 years, and I'm considering giving them more lol.
I didn't intend to downplay how many support skills impact gameplay. I was just trying to state the fact that not every skill effects every situation, and you will eventually cap out on those.
The problem with your statement at first makes it seem like you are saying, "If you're not at an even playing field, don't play because you'll get stomped." When in reality, you don't need to be even to compete. Sure, number crunchers can make all the spreadsheets they want on how to make the best build with the best skills, but there are really never any fair fights in Eve. In War or low/null sec anyways.
I understand your point, but your context in the argument make it seem like you're telling people they can't even compete without being on an even playing field until the end of your arguments, and you stick in what the game is really about.
my final comment one this is as follows. If you are encouraging a new player to purchase a high sp toon off of the bazaar to be "equal" to vets....you are leading them down a path of "former" EvE player. I don't care to argue anymore. I will give a full fitted T2 HAC/Force Recon to any new player with a freshly bought character....and I GUARANTEE I will take them out in a lesser ship.
I don't know how to make that plainer. Please meet me in Rancer at planet 1 tomorrow at 2300 EvE time and I promise not to pod you. I am sick of these claims. Encouraging someone to take advantage of the character bazaar for the sole purpse of "catching up" is worse than telling newbs that low sec doesn't mean anything.
You are blantantly leading any potential new player down the road of destruction. I would rather a vet lie to me and tell me that it's okay to jump into a .4 system than have me spend RL money to purchase a character that I have no idea how to use.
Your continued claims that the sp advantage that vets enjoy is well known. As I and others continue to tell you and anyone for that matter that these are EASILY bypassed with the methods that have been detailed....we have to agree to disagree.
To be honest, I wouldn't let a single forum user dissuade me from trying a game, if many veterans of that game continually made intelligent counter points and were still active.
If a new player can't handle some adversity, he won't last in EvE very long anyway.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Not being able to do something to speed up skill training bothered me, but not enough to never play it. Some people can't stand it, those don't play. =/
It's not like there are only vets out there. There are still noobs without every skill to V, the game keeps you subscribed for a long time. It might not be the best method, but it works for CCP. They took my money for ~3 years, and I'm considering giving them more lol.
I didn't intend to downplay how many support skills impact gameplay. I was just trying to state the fact that not every skill effects every situation, and you will eventually cap out on those.
The problem with your statement at first makes it seem like you are saying, "If you're not at an even playing field, don't play because you'll get stomped." When in reality, you don't need to be even to compete. Sure, number crunchers can make all the spreadsheets they want on how to make the best build with the best skills, but there are really never any fair fights in Eve. In War or low/null sec anyways.
I understand your point, but your context in the argument make it seem like you're telling people they can't even compete without being on an even playing field until the end of your arguments, and you stick in what the game is really about.
Hey I actually 100% agree with everything you just said. Great post. And maybe I should start my posts with the statement I usually end it with if that will clear the confusion (I never say you will always get stomped or won't have fun).
Some people like myself are PVP purists, who feel that at some point PVP should be purely about skill and effort and brains, without any residual advantages due to paying more money (e.g., subscribing for the most months or spending in a cash store).
And I am not even the most rabid of the PVP purists out there, as there are those that think the inherent inbalances of MMOs are poor PVP platforms under any circumstance, and insist that there should be no advantages period, like in the FPS genre or RTS genre which is pure skill/brain based: no amount of money or grinding can give you and advantage in an FPS or RTS (unless you cheat, which is highly looked down upon in the esport genres)
I personally think effort/grinding is an ok advantage which is why I also enjoy MMO PVP, as at least it represents work. Kind of like the kid on the soccer team who isn't as good as some of the others but works harder to gain an advantage. But I draw the line when it comes to money giving you an advantage...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Originally posted by gainesvilleg And maybe I should start my posts with the statement I usually end it with if that will clear the confusion (I never say you will always get stomped or won't have fun).
There is not need to drag new players into the confusion you're spreading.
Originally posted by gainesvillegJoining EVE now in my opinion would be pointless, unless you want to spend at least 1 full year just skilling up and running mind-numbingly boring missions while you wait. And even after a full year you still will be a bitty role player in any meaningful PVP. Don't listen to the veterans who claim skills don't matter. Your piddly weakling ships will get smashed by the ships of the veterans.
my final comment one this is as follows. If you are encouraging a new player to purchase a high sp toon off of the bazaar to be "equal" to vets....you are leading them down a path of "former" EvE player. I don't care to argue anymore. I will give a full fitted T2 HAC/Force Recon to any new player with a freshly bought character....and I GUARANTEE I will take them out in a lesser ship.
Nothing prevents the newly purchased character from practicing for a few weeks in the lesser ships to get used to the game mechanics before meeting you in the battlefield. I never recommended you buy a character and then immediately roll out into 0.0 in a T2 ship with a chip on your shoulder. To be honest I hate the concept of buying characters in general, but I think it is necessary in EVE unfortunately. It is also sanctioned by the developer, which is unusual for an MMO and tells you something there I think.
EVE of course has a strong element of player skill, and I agree a relatively high element of player skill at least compared to other MMOs. But you can get good at the game much much faster than your skill points acrue. It is not the first 3 months that I think are unfair to the noob.
And look I respect your opinion. We will just have to agree to disagree. I have inside me a very inherent and strong sense of fair play that probably goes beyond many MMO gamers. Most people like me stay in the esport genres, but I also like RPG's and MMOs so I tend to stray into genres where my esport roots sometimes bump heads with game design choices. EVE more than any other MMO which is unfortunate because in many ways it is the best MMO out there.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
And maybe I should start my posts with the statement I usually end it with if that will clear the confusion (I never say you will always get stomped or won't have fun).
There is not need to drag new players into the confusion you're spreading.
Originally posted by gainesvilleg
Joining EVE now in my opinion would be pointless, unless you want to spend at least 1 full year just skilling up and running mind-numbingly boring missions while you wait. And even after a full year you still will be a bitty role player in any meaningful PVP. Don't listen to the veterans who claim skills don't matter. Your piddly weakling ships will get smashed by the ships of the veterans.
Yes, and I have greatly softened my posts since that one out of respect for the thread and being a bit more retrospective about my experiences in EVE. It is easy to isolate the written word to overstate your emotion on a topic: I think we can all relate to that. And even in that post, which is only like 4 pages back in this thread I indicated I personally had fun playing EVE.
I do have deep feelings about PVP and game mechanics. EVE is one of the best PVP games in many ways, but one of the worst in some others, particularly regarding some of the esport concepts. The new player has to determine where he stands. What their perspective on PVP is and if they fall closer to the esport ethos, which is where my root are.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Comments
I have said this exact same thing in several posts already AlysenMinase. I'm sick of these posts. I want to see EvEMon links. I want to see why a brand spanking new pod pilot can be viable in pvp in a t1 frigate or destroyer or battlecruiser. I want to see tangible results. {mod edit}
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Minmatar Frigate III
Hull Upgrades I
Hull Upgrades II
Hull Upgrades III
Hull Upgrades IV
Shield Upgrades I
Shield Upgrades II
Shield Upgrades III
Afterburner I
Afterburner II
Afterburner III
Afterburner IV
Propulsion Jamming I
Propulsion Jamming II
Small Projectile Turret IV
Motion Prediction I
Motion Prediction II
Motion Prediction III
Small Projectile Turret V
Small Autocannon Specialization I
Mechanic III
Jury Rigging I
Jury Rigging II
Jury Rigging III
Projectile Weapon Rigging I
Total time: 10 days, 14 hours, 2 minutes, 8 seconds
Total time is for a newly created minmatar pilot, times for other races may vary.
This is for a decent T2-fit Rifter, viable in pvp. And while one is waiting for the skills to train, one can substitute the t2 with t1 stuff. I've had decent sucess with said fit - especially in small-group pvp - but even in solo pvp it's viable (if you know what you're doing... :P). It's also a fairly cheap skillset (and fitting), so it's pretty good.
Follow my tweet (:
This skill plan here puts you at a very significant disadvantage and is very gimped. To level the playing field with the veterans, you need dozens of skills at level 5. As an example, focusing on drones alone which is just one minor minor component of your repetoire:
Drone Durabilty V
Drone Navigation V
Drone Sharpshooting V
Scout Drone Operation V
XXX Drone Specialization V
Drone Interfacing V
Not to mention the dozens of support skills that materially improve your performance, literally dozens of electronics, engineering, and gunnery skills that need to be to 5 in order to match the veterans.
Sure, you can argue any one of these is not that important. Hey it only gives you a 5% advantage in one area right? Well, 1.05^30 is an absolutely huge advantage. And no I can't post an EVEmon skill plan because I don't play EVE anymore and don't have this planning software utility installed.
And sure you can group up to gain advantage in numbers but it doesn't change the facts regarding having all skills, even marginally important ones because it adds up fast, at 5 gives you an advantage.
You can disagree with me, that having more skill points doesn't matter, but just tell the veterans their skill points will be reset to 0 and see if they think it matters then.
I've never once told somebody not to play EVE because of this inherent and permanent disadvantage they will have, but I think they should understand what they are getting into and by all means do the free trial and see if you like it. As many veterans say, you don't have to "win" at EVE to have fun. But you should at least understand how it works and what you are up against.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
hehe, well personally I wouldnt say brand spanking new. I made an alt just for FW years ago and I can get a rifter ready in 4 days
But your right, its very silly to say you can pvp competativly off the bat, and its not really reccomended unless your joining Eve and going straight into a corp full of existing friends.
But to be honest, a large portion of players coming to Eve and stay never pvp, there is a lot more to Eve! You dont need tons of skills to help with mining, crafting or exploration.. you dont need all that many skills to play the market, or freigt goods around to make profit.
Hardly any skills required for planetary interaction and there is plenty of PvE to be getting on with
You sit on your gate with your Level 5 Drone Boat, and I suddenly warp in at 100+KM and start sniping and your drones are totally useless, they can't reach me. (even with my pathetic level 4 gun skills) And if I manage to land a jam on you, you'll never get in the fight.
Boom, you're dead unless you think to warp to the gate and flee.
You are correct, you certainly are more powerful than I, but it just doesn't really matter.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You well know that the situation you described is purly circumstancial and hypothetical.
You would have to know he was there to warp in at 100, which implies pre-determined knowledge, intelligence, you'd have to be at war or just roaming low-sec.., He could be a bait, he could be with a corp on the otherside of the gate, he could have bombers cloaked nearby, damn, he could even have sentry drones.
Point is you cant say you would definatly win in your imaginary situatuion, there are countless possabilities! Just assuming that you will be out on your own and randomly encounter someone else on their own is a bit childish and niave
In Eve the battle is over well before it begins, no matter what skills you've trained up or what you happen to be flying in you'll always lose to someone who has superior knowledge.
I'm done arguing. I am tired of getting warned about excessive trolling when I asked for someone to simply load a skillplan that would make a new pilot ready for pvp. If you think you need so many level V skills in all of those skills to be competitive you fall in one of the following:
1. you no longer play eve(by your own admission) and have forgotten.
2. you left EvE b/c of some reason, and now you have a bad taste about the game, thus you are letting new players know your experience by telling them something that you believe.
3. you are looking for a response, which you have gotten.
I choose to ignore these posts on this board about this topic. You are incapable of understanding mine, along with others numerous examples that were given.
Good luck.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Let's just agree that new players should do the trial and determine for themselves whether they want to stay or not. That's what a free trial is for, after all, and I think we can at least agree on that.
But I am fairly certain nothing I have posted is incorrect: you WILL be playing against veterans with level V skills in all of those areas and they WILL have an inherent advantage because of this.
And despite your constant accusations that I am trolling or "incapable of understanding" etc I'll once again turn the other cheek and not respond in kind.
But note that I do fully understand your point of view. It basically boils down to: "Just get in a larger group to gain advantage and don't worry about comparisons between individual characters." But the obvious response to that is "What if the veterans are also in a large group?" or alternatively, if you yourself join a group of veterans "What is your role as a noob in that group of veterans?" The answer to both of those questions is, well, having more skill points gives the veterans the advantage once again.
It really isn't that complicated and it makes me chuckle a bit when I hear somebody say with a straight face that having more and better skills doesn't give you an advantage. Any way you break it down, you will find that having a multi-year edge in skill point accumulation gives you an advantage in any apples-to-apples scenario you can concoct.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I po(a)sted a skillplan! Without many lv5 skills, even! (There was what? One lv5 skill? Of course, I did leave out a number of support skills, which I probably shouldn't have, but meh! They won't take THAT long to train, maybe another 10 days)
But meh. Look at GS, they've been successive with having new players in pvp. Even if the new player was <10 days old. (Which, no matter what one might think of them otherwise, is admirable)
But I can follow the three points you mention, and think it's a problem with a lot of "vets" in eve. Especially the ones who've never left highsec, and are doing lv4 mission ad nauseam.
I know a few people who've basically just started the game, and they're doing (insert repetitive, mindnumbing task here) while they wait for a shitton of skills to get to lv5 before they even want to consider doing something else ("something else" not even being pvp). Why are they doing this? They've been told by vets ("friends" or corpmates) that they have to do so.
But you (and others posting in the samme manner) are right. These kinds of posts should enrage any vet worth their salt. Especially since there'll be a lot of trolls [read people who aren't vets] that will fill people with garbage.
That's why people like you and I should keep up the fight. Otherwise we'll see the amount of new players decline, because they think the learning curve isn't really a curve, but more of a straight, vertical, line.
There are a few relatively respectable Eve Online people on the MMORPG.com forums. I pray they keep up the fight.
Follow my tweet (:
I've been following this thread, and I'm just so confused on your logic at some points. Why do you insist new players should be able to win against everything versus vets? Isn't that the idea? Someone who has played more has the upper hand in knowledge, as well as more advancement?
Sure the noobs will eventually catch up to the vets in specilization, but honestly, why should a noob 1 v 1 a vet and always have a fair fight against them? Vets should know better, there are no fair fights in eve, unless they were in good fun.
Saying a noob will have an uphill battle against vets while fighting is one thing, saying they can never reach the same combat level is just stupid.
They can train up the same skills the vet have, and only so many skills can effect one specific situation. Sure there are lots of secondary skills, but once those are trained, what else is there? You're flying a HAC with all the support skills for the ships and modules maxed out, anyone else with those skills will be on a even playing ground sp wise. It doesn't matter how many skill points you have in frigates, or other weapons. Those will not effect the current situation of that fight, only so many skills are used at a time.
It is a matter of time frames. A brand spanking new noob of course will be trounced in any MMO. But in pretty much any other MMO out there, a noob can even the playing field probably within 6 months. And if they actually dedicate more time to playing, they can speed it up more which is intuitively how it should work (in my opinion)
In EVE a noob cannot start to even the playing field until after maybe 18 months, and dedicating more time can not speed this up at all (which is just an odd concept to me, which is why I propose buying skillpoints with ISK). And by even playing field I mean just that, NO inherent disadvantages: ALL releveant skills at 5 and flying the BEST ships. And you are downplaying exactly how many skills there are that impact survivability/combat, and how long it will take you to get them all to 5.
And sure some say being at an even playing field within 6 months is "impatient" and "instant gratifications" etc. But 6 months is a long time, especially with the number of other games out there many might also be interested in, and the limited budgets some people may have. I think people just need to be aware of this rather than find out 6 months into the game that they still have a long way to go. Maybe that concept even appeals to some people, and I'm not telling anybody not to play: Quite the contrary actually, I encourage everybody to try it.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
This claim was rectified countless times already but why bother with reality and facts when you can do your theorycrafting...
I just hope that anyone new to the game will realize how off your claims are.
"This claim was rectified"? What, because some people saying they disagree? Nobody has demonstrated a skill plan that gets you to flying the best heavy assault cruiser and/or battleship with all relevant primary and support skills at 5. Just lots of Rifter examples that I've read, which all the noobs like to fly. Or lots of examples that show you can turn the key in the ignition in one of the premier ships, rather than showing you can fly them with all relevant skills at 5 like the veterans will have.
Why should new players only hear from cheerleaders of the game? Look, I personally loved my time in EVE, but that doesn't change the facts about the extreme advantage the multi-year vets will have over any new player. People who don't know how the skill system in EVE works shouldn't be kept in the dark about this.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
You got it messed up.
The only person here is you claiming that you need "the best heavy assault cruiser and/or battleship with all relevant primary and support skills at 5" and it is you failing to provide any arguments to your claims that you truly need it.
There are no cheerleaders, there are people who knows and can back up their claims and those who don't know and can't back up anything they say.
There is a difference between "truly needing it" and what I'm saying. All those who argue against what I am saying change the conversation away from "equality" to simply "being able to play."
I'm talking about an even playing field. I'm not talking about just being able to compete and get some kills. I'm talking about parity and equality. Why should new players never be able to reach equality? You can play chess without a rook and still win, but why should you have to play without the rook that all the veterans will have?
Lets make it even more simple. Which is better, a 20% damage bonus to your turrets or a 25% damage bonus to your turrets??? I really can't wait to hear your answer.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
A bonus is better in hands that can utilize it better.
Running the numbers isn't the same as actually taking your ship into an engagement. A factor you are not counting in in your theorycrafting.
Once you actually do that, you will find out that lvl 5 skills do not matter as much and the numbers give you only very general and limited hint how the ship will perform.
Thank you, because I think this very clearly summarizes the debate we are having. New players can now judge which is the truer statement in their world view:
1) A 25% damage bonus to turrets is better than a 20% damage bonus to turrets
or
2) It doesn't matter, it only matters who is the better player
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Good piloting and fitting make way more difference than 5% dmg bonus...
EDIT:
Meh, not worthy and pointless discussing with someone whose supposed knowledge consisting of sheer assumptions with no real experience...
First of all, 5% damage bonus will just be one of the possibly dozens of skills the veterans will have an advantage on. The advantage adds up very quick. Think 1.05^N quick. And as for your fitting, that is also skill dependent.
And I actually have plenty of experience. Recent experience no, but I don't believe things have changed all that much since I played. And I have kept up with some of the recent changes since I am currently MMOless and am looking for something to pass the time until some of the releases later this year.
But I think the debate is clear now, we just will never see eye to eye and that is fine. All perspectives are valuable to somebody trying to learn about the game...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Not being able to do something to speed up skill training bothered me, but not enough to never play it. Some people can't stand it, those don't play. =/
It's not like there are only vets out there. There are still noobs without every skill to V, the game keeps you subscribed for a long time. It might not be the best method, but it works for CCP. They took my money for ~3 years, and I'm considering giving them more lol.
I didn't intend to downplay how many support skills impact gameplay. I was just trying to state the fact that not every skill effects every situation, and you will eventually cap out on those.
The problem with your statement at first makes it seem like you are saying, "If you're not at an even playing field, don't play because you'll get stomped." When in reality, you don't need to be even to compete. Sure, number crunchers can make all the spreadsheets they want on how to make the best build with the best skills, but there are really never any fair fights in Eve. In War or low/null sec anyways.
I understand your point, but your context in the argument make it seem like you're telling people they can't even compete without being on an even playing field until the end of your arguments, and you stick in what the game is really about.
my final comment one this is as follows. If you are encouraging a new player to purchase a high sp toon off of the bazaar to be "equal" to vets....you are leading them down a path of "former" EvE player. I don't care to argue anymore. I will give a full fitted T2 HAC/Force Recon to any new player with a freshly bought character....and I GUARANTEE I will take them out in a lesser ship.
I don't know how to make that plainer. Please meet me in Rancer at planet 1 tomorrow at 2300 EvE time and I promise not to pod you. I am sick of these claims. Encouraging someone to take advantage of the character bazaar for the sole purpse of "catching up" is worse than telling newbs that low sec doesn't mean anything.
You are blantantly leading any potential new player down the road of destruction. I would rather a vet lie to me and tell me that it's okay to jump into a .4 system than have me spend RL money to purchase a character that I have no idea how to use.
Your continued claims that the sp advantage that vets enjoy is well known. As I and others continue to tell you and anyone for that matter that these are EASILY bypassed with the methods that have been detailed....we have to agree to disagree.
To be honest, I wouldn't let a single forum user dissuade me from trying a game, if many veterans of that game continually made intelligent counter points and were still active.
If a new player can't handle some adversity, he won't last in EvE very long anyway.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Hey I actually 100% agree with everything you just said. Great post. And maybe I should start my posts with the statement I usually end it with if that will clear the confusion (I never say you will always get stomped or won't have fun).
Some people like myself are PVP purists, who feel that at some point PVP should be purely about skill and effort and brains, without any residual advantages due to paying more money (e.g., subscribing for the most months or spending in a cash store).
And I am not even the most rabid of the PVP purists out there, as there are those that think the inherent inbalances of MMOs are poor PVP platforms under any circumstance, and insist that there should be no advantages period, like in the FPS genre or RTS genre which is pure skill/brain based: no amount of money or grinding can give you and advantage in an FPS or RTS (unless you cheat, which is highly looked down upon in the esport genres)
I personally think effort/grinding is an ok advantage which is why I also enjoy MMO PVP, as at least it represents work. Kind of like the kid on the soccer team who isn't as good as some of the others but works harder to gain an advantage. But I draw the line when it comes to money giving you an advantage...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
There is not need to drag new players into the confusion you're spreading.
Nothing prevents the newly purchased character from practicing for a few weeks in the lesser ships to get used to the game mechanics before meeting you in the battlefield. I never recommended you buy a character and then immediately roll out into 0.0 in a T2 ship with a chip on your shoulder. To be honest I hate the concept of buying characters in general, but I think it is necessary in EVE unfortunately. It is also sanctioned by the developer, which is unusual for an MMO and tells you something there I think.
EVE of course has a strong element of player skill, and I agree a relatively high element of player skill at least compared to other MMOs. But you can get good at the game much much faster than your skill points acrue. It is not the first 3 months that I think are unfair to the noob.
And look I respect your opinion. We will just have to agree to disagree. I have inside me a very inherent and strong sense of fair play that probably goes beyond many MMO gamers. Most people like me stay in the esport genres, but I also like RPG's and MMOs so I tend to stray into genres where my esport roots sometimes bump heads with game design choices. EVE more than any other MMO which is unfortunate because in many ways it is the best MMO out there.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Yes, and I have greatly softened my posts since that one out of respect for the thread and being a bit more retrospective about my experiences in EVE. It is easy to isolate the written word to overstate your emotion on a topic: I think we can all relate to that. And even in that post, which is only like 4 pages back in this thread I indicated I personally had fun playing EVE.
I do have deep feelings about PVP and game mechanics. EVE is one of the best PVP games in many ways, but one of the worst in some others, particularly regarding some of the esport concepts. The new player has to determine where he stands. What their perspective on PVP is and if they fall closer to the esport ethos, which is where my root are.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements