Ok first let me just say I'm still quite new to the game. I started Feb 10 and have around 4 mil skill points (yes I bought and sold a couple plex to fund implants and ships to get started quickly).
And yes, it IS possible for a brand new player to be effective in PvP. As effective as a vet? Of course not. But it's definitely possible to have one vet form a frigate fleet with a bunch of brand new players (as in on their first or second day) and get something done in low-sec.
I know this because I had the good fortune to get invited to just such a fleet a couple times in my first week by an awesome chap who enjoys putting together and running such fleets. He flies a Jag himself, and builds frigates that total about 1 mil each for the newbies, and has a couple skill books for them to train (all together the skills needed take maybe 30 min to train) just in case. He usually tries to get about 10-20 newbies. His reason for doing this? He says it's because this way he can have more fun for a lot less money than if he just built one good ship and flew solo. And I believe him. The first time out, we found no action but the second time we had at least 8-10 kills if I remember correctly. And he gets to build and command a fleet, and embarass vets by taking out their ships with a fleet of true newbies.
Also for those who whine about not being able to "catch up".. yeah, you're not going to be flying cap ships any time soon. But then, far and away most Eve PvP does not involve cap ships. Most of your typical low-sec PvP doesn't involve anything bigger than a battlecruiser, which you can be flying in a matter of a couple weeks yourself if you choose.
However, I think there's a bit of wishful thinking going on in both sides of the debate.
Yes, in theory it's absolutely possible for a newbie to have the same relevant skillset as a vet for a given ship and associated combat skills in an "honour duel" situation.
But 1v1 "honour duels" are pretty rare in EVE, it's just not that type of PvP. EVE PvP is about teamwork, who has more friends, and who has a deeper knowledge of the rock/paper/scissors mechanics of the game.
The real superiority vets have is that they know how to pick their fights - even 1v1, they know that if they're "paper" they can beat "rock" but be beaten by "scissors". And they also know that they can easily dock up and take out their "rock" to beat the "scissors" guy they just avoided in their "paper" ship.
But of course such deep knowledge does come from having put a lot of time into the game, because what counts as "rock", "paper" and "scissors" are the result of fairly complex balances of forces that you can only really understand with experience.
However, I think there's a bit of wishful thinking going on in both sides of the debate.
Yes, in theory it's absolutely possible for a newbie to have the same relevant skillset as a vet for a given ship and associated combat skills in an "honour duel" situation.
But 1v1 "honour duels" are pretty rare in EVE, it's just not that type of PvP. EVE PvP is about teamwork, who has more friends, and who has a deeper knowledge of the rock/paper/scissors mechanics of the game.
The real superiority vets have is that they know how to pick their fights - even 1v1, they know that if they're "paper" they can beat "rock" but be beaten by "scissors". And they also know that they can easily dock up and take out their "rock" to beat the "scissors" guy they just avoided in their "paper" ship.
But of course such deep knowledge does come from having put a lot of time into the game, because what counts as "rock", "paper" and "scissors" are the result of fairly complex balances of forces that you can only really understand with experience.
However, I think there's a bit of wishful thinking going on in both sides of the debate.
Yes, in theory it's absolutely possible for a newbie to have the same relevant skillset as a vet for a given ship and associated combat skills in an "honour duel" situation.
But 1v1 "honour duels" are pretty rare in EVE, it's just not that type of PvP. EVE PvP is about teamwork, who has more friends, and who has a deeper knowledge of the rock/paper/scissors mechanics of the game.
The real superiority vets have is that they know how to pick their fights - even 1v1, they know that if they're "paper" they can beat "rock" but be beaten by "scissors". And they also know that they can easily dock up and take out their "rock" to beat the "scissors" guy they just avoided in their "paper" ship.
But of course such deep knowledge does come from having put a lot of time into the game, because what counts as "rock", "paper" and "scissors" are the result of fairly complex balances of forces that you can only really understand with experience.
QFT. Very much QFT.
plus we already have many friends in game. Plus, I FC alot, so I can spot say, a minmatar ship using lasers or a gall ship fitted with arty. Knowing this, I can more effectively lead my team to a kill...or know that we should disengage and look for a new target. Half of EFFECTIVE pvp'ing is knowing when to gtfo and picking your fights...as you already stated. SP advantages are easily sidestepped and if you are playing EvE the way CCP intended to be played...in a GROUP..you won't have too much trouble.
If you choose not to learn how to pvp, play solo only, not realize that hi sec is only there to provide you with an easy money until you can get back to low sec or 0.0....your experience might be terrible OR it might be like playing any other quest driven nonsense. There has been much gnashing off teeth over Level 4 agents in hisec and moving them to lo sec. Lots of crying about it.
Personally, I could care less. Play the way you want, but know that CCP has created a game so you don't have to play a themepark type game. I can't imagine playing EvE by running missions non stop in hi sec with 139 people in local that I have no idea who they are...and not caring.
Playing EvE that way is anathema to me.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
However, I think there's a bit of wishful thinking going on in both sides of the debate.
Yes, in theory it's absolutely possible for a newbie to have the same relevant skillset as a vet for a given ship and associated combat skills in an "honour duel" situation.
But 1v1 "honour duels" are pretty rare in EVE, it's just not that type of PvP. EVE PvP is about teamwork, who has more friends, and who has a deeper knowledge of the rock/paper/scissors mechanics of the game.
The real superiority vets have is that they know how to pick their fights - even 1v1, they know that if they're "paper" they can beat "rock" but be beaten by "scissors". And they also know that they can easily dock up and take out their "rock" to beat the "scissors" guy they just avoided in their "paper" ship.
But of course such deep knowledge does come from having put a lot of time into the game, because what counts as "rock", "paper" and "scissors" are the result of fairly complex balances of forces that you can only really understand with experience.
QFT. Very much QFT.
plus we already have many friends in game. Plus, I FC alot, so I can spot say, a minmatar ship using lasers or a gall ship fitted with arty. Knowing this, I can more effectively lead my team to a kill...or know that we should disengage and look for a new target. Half of EFFECTIVE pvp'ing is knowing when to gtfo and picking your fights...as you already stated. SP advantages are easily sidestepped and if you are playing EvE the way CCP intended to be played...in a GROUP..you won't have too much trouble.
If you choose not to learn how to pvp, play solo only, not realize that hi sec is only there to provide you with an easy money until you can get back to low sec or 0.0....your experience might be terrible OR it might be like playing any other quest driven nonsense. There has been much gnashing off teeth over Level 4 agents in hisec and moving them to lo sec. Lots of crying about it.
Personally, I could care less. Play the way you want, but know that CCP has created a game so you don't have to play a themepark type game. I can't imagine playing EvE by running missions non stop in hi sec with 139 people in local that I have no idea who they are...and not caring.
Playing EvE that way is anathema to me.
Just to add that, even though I understand something of the group mechanics of EVE, I myself play pretty much solo PvE, and either potter about exporing or playing cat and mouse with piwates, running L4s in low sec.
This is because I just don't have the time to commit to EVE to play it the way most people play it - i.e. with big groups of people. Plus also, I've found (both from personal experience and hearsay) that in many big corps and alliances you're just a "grunt", cannon fodder for some other nerd's dreams of dominance, and I'd rather just spend my limited play time goofing off pretending I'm a heroic space pilot fighting NPCs, with the general background hum of aliveness you can only get from an MMO.
Best social fun for me in EVE has been playing in a small, dedicated corp with experienced, friendly people - but again, because my time is intermittent, it's not really fair on others, and it gets embarrassing to be making close friends then being out of the game for a few months, and having missed out on shared adventures in the interim.
So I solo PvE. And while I agree that the main focus of the game is on grouping, and that's how it should be in a game like this, for anybody out there who's used to soloing, CCP haven't totally neglected us (how could they, as casual soloers still form a huge number of subs in MMOs? ). We have NPC corps (corps you are automatically put in if you haven't joined a player corp), the chat of which is usually fun enough to satisfy the social side to some extent, while being casual enough so that it doesn't matter if you drop in and out of the game. Plus, no drama, no being a slave to someone else's dream, etc.
Plus now there are Incursions, which are a bit like CCP's equivalent of PUG-ing in other MMOs.
So PvE soloers - don't avoid the game because you hear about it being corp-focussed. It is, but it's still possible to enjoy the game on your own, CCP have made enough provision for that.
In response to GuruGroege's comments about the running in Corps vs. running solo, I have to agree with him, I am currently in a player run corp, every Friday evening they run lvl 4 missions. If you can make it great, if not then you can't. The nice thing that I like about this specific corp is that the tax rate is lower than most of the NPC corps (5% vs the average of 11%). Also, there are a few members that are in the corp that can make items and sell them to fellow corp members at a dicsounted rate.
Does it suck at times? Yeah it does, but depending on the corp that you are able to get in with you can have a good time with anything that is going on around you. I have only been playing now for about 2 months and I have really enjoyed the game as well as the players that are in the game as well.
Are there a few players that I wouldn't mind taking a 2x4 to them and smacking some sense into them??? Of course, but you have those type of players in just about every game that is out there now. Just go with the flow of things.
If you are still on the fence about coming back to the game, then make your decision on the fact that if you are showing this much interest then you are looking at playing, otherwise find something else to spend your money on.
Sorry if I punchured any feelings of any and all that have posted to this thread and the OP, but if you are going to play then play the game. Otherwise, find another game to spend your time and money on (there are a few out there to choose from).
Comments
Let's avoid baiting each other guys, thanks!
Ok first let me just say I'm still quite new to the game. I started Feb 10 and have around 4 mil skill points (yes I bought and sold a couple plex to fund implants and ships to get started quickly).
And yes, it IS possible for a brand new player to be effective in PvP. As effective as a vet? Of course not. But it's definitely possible to have one vet form a frigate fleet with a bunch of brand new players (as in on their first or second day) and get something done in low-sec.
I know this because I had the good fortune to get invited to just such a fleet a couple times in my first week by an awesome chap who enjoys putting together and running such fleets. He flies a Jag himself, and builds frigates that total about 1 mil each for the newbies, and has a couple skill books for them to train (all together the skills needed take maybe 30 min to train) just in case. He usually tries to get about 10-20 newbies. His reason for doing this? He says it's because this way he can have more fun for a lot less money than if he just built one good ship and flew solo. And I believe him. The first time out, we found no action but the second time we had at least 8-10 kills if I remember correctly. And he gets to build and command a fleet, and embarass vets by taking out their ships with a fleet of true newbies.
Also for those who whine about not being able to "catch up".. yeah, you're not going to be flying cap ships any time soon. But then, far and away most Eve PvP does not involve cap ships. Most of your typical low-sec PvP doesn't involve anything bigger than a battlecruiser, which you can be flying in a matter of a couple weeks yourself if you choose.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I just resubbed 2 days ago and I blame all of you who posted! No, seriously, I was fine until reading these threads.
This thread is making me want to re-sub to EVE.
However, I think there's a bit of wishful thinking going on in both sides of the debate.
Yes, in theory it's absolutely possible for a newbie to have the same relevant skillset as a vet for a given ship and associated combat skills in an "honour duel" situation.
But 1v1 "honour duels" are pretty rare in EVE, it's just not that type of PvP. EVE PvP is about teamwork, who has more friends, and who has a deeper knowledge of the rock/paper/scissors mechanics of the game.
The real superiority vets have is that they know how to pick their fights - even 1v1, they know that if they're "paper" they can beat "rock" but be beaten by "scissors". And they also know that they can easily dock up and take out their "rock" to beat the "scissors" guy they just avoided in their "paper" ship.
But of course such deep knowledge does come from having put a lot of time into the game, because what counts as "rock", "paper" and "scissors" are the result of fairly complex balances of forces that you can only really understand with experience.
QFT. Very much QFT.
plus we already have many friends in game. Plus, I FC alot, so I can spot say, a minmatar ship using lasers or a gall ship fitted with arty. Knowing this, I can more effectively lead my team to a kill...or know that we should disengage and look for a new target. Half of EFFECTIVE pvp'ing is knowing when to gtfo and picking your fights...as you already stated. SP advantages are easily sidestepped and if you are playing EvE the way CCP intended to be played...in a GROUP..you won't have too much trouble.
If you choose not to learn how to pvp, play solo only, not realize that hi sec is only there to provide you with an easy money until you can get back to low sec or 0.0....your experience might be terrible OR it might be like playing any other quest driven nonsense. There has been much gnashing off teeth over Level 4 agents in hisec and moving them to lo sec. Lots of crying about it.
Personally, I could care less. Play the way you want, but know that CCP has created a game so you don't have to play a themepark type game. I can't imagine playing EvE by running missions non stop in hi sec with 139 people in local that I have no idea who they are...and not caring.
Playing EvE that way is anathema to me.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Just to add that, even though I understand something of the group mechanics of EVE, I myself play pretty much solo PvE, and either potter about exporing or playing cat and mouse with piwates, running L4s in low sec.
This is because I just don't have the time to commit to EVE to play it the way most people play it - i.e. with big groups of people. Plus also, I've found (both from personal experience and hearsay) that in many big corps and alliances you're just a "grunt", cannon fodder for some other nerd's dreams of dominance, and I'd rather just spend my limited play time goofing off pretending I'm a heroic space pilot fighting NPCs, with the general background hum of aliveness you can only get from an MMO.
Best social fun for me in EVE has been playing in a small, dedicated corp with experienced, friendly people - but again, because my time is intermittent, it's not really fair on others, and it gets embarrassing to be making close friends then being out of the game for a few months, and having missed out on shared adventures in the interim.
So I solo PvE. And while I agree that the main focus of the game is on grouping, and that's how it should be in a game like this, for anybody out there who's used to soloing, CCP haven't totally neglected us (how could they, as casual soloers still form a huge number of subs in MMOs?
). We have NPC corps (corps you are automatically put in if you haven't joined a player corp), the chat of which is usually fun enough to satisfy the social side to some extent, while being casual enough so that it doesn't matter if you drop in and out of the game. Plus, no drama, no being a slave to someone else's dream, etc.
Plus now there are Incursions, which are a bit like CCP's equivalent of PUG-ing in other MMOs.
So PvE soloers - don't avoid the game because you hear about it being corp-focussed. It is, but it's still possible to enjoy the game on your own, CCP have made enough provision for that.
In response to GuruGroege's comments about the running in Corps vs. running solo, I have to agree with him, I am currently in a player run corp, every Friday evening they run lvl 4 missions. If you can make it great, if not then you can't. The nice thing that I like about this specific corp is that the tax rate is lower than most of the NPC corps (5% vs the average of 11%). Also, there are a few members that are in the corp that can make items and sell them to fellow corp members at a dicsounted rate.
Does it suck at times? Yeah it does, but depending on the corp that you are able to get in with you can have a good time with anything that is going on around you. I have only been playing now for about 2 months and I have really enjoyed the game as well as the players that are in the game as well.
Are there a few players that I wouldn't mind taking a 2x4 to them and smacking some sense into them??? Of course, but you have those type of players in just about every game that is out there now. Just go with the flow of things.
If you are still on the fence about coming back to the game, then make your decision on the fact that if you are showing this much interest then you are looking at playing, otherwise find something else to spend your money on.
Sorry if I punchured any feelings of any and all that have posted to this thread and the OP, but if you are going to play then play the game. Otherwise, find another game to spend your time and money on (there are a few out there to choose from).
Hope to see you in game!
-Slider7
Looking for that next MMO