To all of these MMO veterans that think every modern game has failed, keep in mind that it hasn't failed just because your not playing it.
LOL, and to all these younger MMO players just because you are playing it doesn't mean you're playing a good MMORPG, you just don't realize what you missed.
Cheers
Unfortunately, it's hard to miss what you've never had. How can one imagine a magnificently grilled steak having grown up with a diet of stale hooves and ears. It's not happening
Thats just the thing. People showed up while we were passing around the steak sauce and tried to talk us into eating stale hooves and ears. We told them to gtfo because we weren't eating that shit.
IMO WoW was not a bad game when it first came out niether was the lore. Cataclysm itself however has gone WAY downhill. Almost everyone is done with the content other than raids and they ahve not even put out a content patch for new quests or anything. And all they are putting in the next is level 18-20 quests not max level unless the patch notes have changes within the last week.
All I have ever seen them do outside of dungeons as far as adding content during an expansion is mess with everyone's classes so that everyone freaks out and constantly gripes and complains. That is all you ever hear on that game is the gripes about how they are nerfing my class in the next patch or expansion. Not hey guys lets go do this or go do that or lets just have fun and relax. And yet they keep paying and playing and do nothing but gripe and complain LOL.
These are all of course observations I have made and whether or not enyone wants to go play it is up to them for me my accounts have been shut off for over a month already and I am getting sick and tired about hearing about it in almost every thread on the forum. That is exactly one of the reasons I left. Either go or get off the pot one or the other.......
Wrong. Two new dungeons, and a bunch of new (non-daily) quests are avaiable this week.
Two old dungeons were re-released. I hardly count that as "new" content.
You guys act like all these games you played "back in the day" aren't available anymore. More than half of them are, through private servers or their just still there. Stop calling yourselves historians because you played a few games 10 years ago, it just sound rediculous. These games are still around.
You havn't exprienced anything different than I have. I've played EQ and UO. Compared to the amount of polish and balance that today's MMO's offer, these games fall apart. But that's really no suprise because the budget for most of today's average MMO's is much higher than it was back then. So I'm sorry that you all grew up on "a diet of stale hooves and ears" and are now accustomed to that taste but I think I'll sit back and enjoy my fresh new steak while you all QQ at how bad it tastes.
Cheers =]
A number of "oldschool" MMOs may still be abvailable, but they are only so in name only.
Take for example Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. Today they are absolutely nothing like they were in their original state. In fact, it could be very strongly argued that they are completely different games now, and the only commonality they had from their original state is that they use the same base game engine. The gameplay of these games however, are nothing like what they originally were.
As per playing on 'private servers'. Firstly, this is not legal. Secondly, this still does not offer near the same level of quality, and in most cases they also do not fully 'emulate' all of the content of the original game.
Sure you may have 'experienced' the oldschool MMOs, but your personal opinion is that oldschool MMOs were flawed and inferior to new MMOs is just that, opinion. Just like it's my opinion, and that of others, that new MMOs can have all the polish possible, and it still won't make them decent games at the core of gameplay, because they're designed to only appeal to players on a superficial level.
Unfortunately, it's hard to miss what you've never had. How can one imagine a magnificently grilled steak having grown up with a diet of stale hooves and ears. It's not happening
Thats just the thing. People showed up while we were passing around the steak sauce and tried to talk us into eating stale hooves and ears. We told them to gtfo because we weren't eating that shit.
And the problem is hooves and ears are all that's available anymore- because they are far cheaper to come by and those ignorant regarding steaks and such gladly lap it up until they get bored and move on to more hooves and ears presented in a slightly different fashion.
As with everything in life, there are far more ignorant than knowledgeable.
Or maybe you just thought you were eating steak but all anyone else saw were hooves and ears.
I'm having more fun in newer games than I did in EQ and way more than SWG. They were fun but I think these are better. I have more choice and more options on how I choose to play.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Greatness is acheived through the process of failure.
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
Greatness is acheived through the process of failure.
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
The only research they're doing, is how to make the most money with the smallest amount of investment possible.
If the WoW sparkle pony scenario is any indication, the industry has little hope of 'getting better' anytime soon.
And yet I'm sure they know, as do we, that a good game will make good money and so they make what they believe are good games.
Venge
Which is what the entire problem is.
Good games to them are games that will 'appeal' to the masses and get them opening their wallets. Even if the game itself is complete junk that gets stale after a month, so long as they can turn a profit off original box sales at a decent ROI rate, they're happy.
It's what Cryptic's development philosophy has been, and for their last two releases, it's worked like a charm at making them profit per what they invested in development, even if their games have been declared horrendous flops not long after release.
Yes because in old MMORPG's with that massively large playerbase that didn't exist it was much easier to group and be a part of the community. Everybody knew everybody and they all held hands on their boring rat killing quest adventures, how fun that must have been. Killing things over and over again and pretending that there was a good story behind why you were constantly grinding away.
Today's MMO's can show you how a story is supposed to play out (through phasing and instanced events) rather than tell you what your supposed to think is happening. I'm sorry but to me that's alot more entertaining then killing rats over and over and over again (but with my fellow group members) until I've killed enough to feel like I've somehow made an impact on the world.
As for effecting mob spawns, creating buildings and crafting, all of those still exist in modern sandboxes.
I can tell from this paragraph, you weren't there, so you don't understand how much fun it really was. In the end, mindlessly killing stuff in video games is boring no matter how its presented and the good times come from the people you interact with.
Which is why a game like EVE is actually more socially entertaining than WOW or its many clones, because the players make the story, and no one makes a better story than the players themselves.
True. Community and friends make for a much more enjoyable experience. However, apparently your still looking for that time when you and your set of friends had fond memories of grouping and questing together. That didn't make the MMO you played "better" than modern MMO's, you just had a better experience because of the people you were with. I have the same sort of great experiences with my friends in today's MMO's.
This a great post for me and my OP in the "What made old MMO's harder thread" tried to get this across. I started playing MMO's in 2007 in WoW and had surprisingly similar experiences to what many of the older vets had "back in the day" but in a game that is touted as easymode, solo ceniric with a bad community. I ran a guild and had great times socialising and playing the game with us helping each other out with all sorts of things. The thing that makes an MMO is its community but communities are much more varied and disparate these days so it takes more effort to find a great guild of like minded players than in the past when all players came from similar backgrounds.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Greatness is acheived through the process of failure.
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
Wolfy, if someone told you that not only you but everyone else in your profession as well was lazy, greedy and had no pride in their work, what would your response be?
I know it's easy to speak ill of EvilCorpCo, as it doesn't have a face and it isn't present in the conversation, and I know you'll probably disagree with the "stupid stuff" I'm about to say, but here it goes:
Of all the people I have spoken with or worked with in this industry, I have yet to meet one that wasn't passionate about his work. Maybe I've been lucky in that regard, but every programmer, every executive, every artist I have met has displayed so much enthusiasm and so much pride regarding what they do that I find it hard to buy into your view of them. I really think you're way off base on your assessment.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Greatness is acheived through the process of failure.
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
Wolfy, if someone told you that not only you but everyone else in your profession as well was lazy, greedy and had no pride in their work, what would your response be?
I know it's easy to speak ill of EvilCorpCo, as it doesn't have a face and it isn't present in the conversation, and I know you'll probably disagree with the "stupid stuff" I'm about to say, but here it goes:
Of all the people I have spoken with or worked with in this industry, I have yet to meet one that wasn't passionate about his work. Maybe I've been lucky in that regard, but every programmer, every executive, every artist I have met has displayed so much enthusiasm and so much pride regarding what they do that I find it hard to buy into your view of them. I really think you're way off base on your assessment.
I'm sure the developers, programmers, etc, are all passionate about making a decent and enjoyable game.
How many of those same people are also in the position of deciding the scope, direction, development timelines, etc, of those same games?
At the end of the day, the people in the position to call the shots are at the beck and call of the company stakeholders, and that means that the number one priority is profit.
Shrug. Such nonsense. Every game company, whether it's small indie company, a big corporation or something inbetween is making their games for profit, it isn't for charity that they're doing it, it's their job, their livelihood.
That doesn't mean that devs and designers can't be passionate about what they do.
That whole argument is camouflage, the heart of the matter is simply that sandbox fans or themepark critics are frustrated because there haven't been many MMO's released of the type that they liked, that's why the hating and bashing on popular MMO's that are of a subgenre that they dislike.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Shrug. Such nonsense. Every game company, whether it's small indie company, a big corporation or something inbetween is making their games for profit, it isn't for charity that they're doing it, it's their job, their livelihood.
That doesn't mean that devs and designers can't be passionate about what they do.
That whole argument is camouflage, the heart of the matter is simply that sandbox fans or themepark critics are frustrated because there haven't been many MMO's released of the type that they liked, that's why the hating and bashing on popular MMO's that are of a subgenre that they dislike.
Of course everyone needs money, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy your job (even if most people don't).
But still, I feel like many companies just try to make more or less exactly the same as older more successful games instead of making a game that is fun in itself. Just stealing what everyone already is doing might work in the music industry but for MMOs people actually need to feel like hey are playing a different game since they have invested a lot of time and work in their characters. People don't change for just prettier graphics.
Sandboxes, themeparks or whatever really isn't the point here, we need fun games that it feels like you havn't already played for years.Good games sell and keep their players, but a MMO need to offer new things to be good.
Shrug. Such nonsense. Every game company, whether it's small indie company, a big corporation or something inbetween is making their games for profit, it isn't for charity that they're doing it, it's their job, their livelihood.
That doesn't mean that devs and designers can't be passionate about what they do.
That whole argument is camouflage, the heart of the matter is simply that sandbox fans or themepark critics are frustrated because there haven't been many MMO's released of the type that they liked, that's why the hating and bashing on popular MMO's that are of a subgenre that they dislike.
That I believe is way off base. Not everyone here has only played sandbox or themepark games. I believe the profit thing is more viable in the fact that at the end of the day you look at who is actually in control of these games it is not even the original makers and they are having to do what the guy with all of the shares in their company has says to do whether or not they as the original game makers like t or not due to contracts, mergers, and everything else that has gone on.
The way the original game maker failed was by allowing one company to have too much power in theirs and thus lose control over options of what to put into the game because the big guys are saying this is what is going to make profits and infact the decline in subscriptions on some of these games speak for themselves. I do believe that speaks for who should actually be making the decisions on what to put in their own game.
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick Shrug. Such nonsense. Every game company, whether it's small indie company, a big corporation or something inbetween is making their games for profit, it isn't for charity that they're doing it, it's their job, their livelihood. That doesn't mean that devs and designers can't be passionate about what they do.
Of course it doesn't. The point is that if the people who are make the final decision on the direction of the game's development are beholden to the need to make money. As such, even if the designers, developer, programmers, and everyone else in between actually developing the game are passionate about it, it's tarnished by the pursuit of profit corrupting the development direction and goals set by those at the top. This has become more of an issue in recent years since the world has seen just how successful an MMO can be, and now countless stakeholders want it replicated to have their own cash cow.
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick That whole argument is camouflage, the heart of the matter is simply that sandbox fans or themepark critics are frustrated because there haven't been many MMO's released of the type that they liked, that's why the hating and bashing on popular MMO's that are of a subgenre that they dislike.
Honestly, I don't care of themeparks exist. I'd just like publishers to wake up and realize that the freak success of WoW cannot be cloned. Instead, they should be aiming to find niche markets to develop MMOs for, and working to cater to them well, just like CCP has done with Eve. Sure it's not a cash cow, but CCP is steadily growing it's subscriber base with a decent profit over the years.
But that seems to the be the sad trend of business these days. Making a quick buck with the smallest amount of effort possible. Apparently the concept of creating respectable products and services as a means of generating profit has been replaced with using bait and switch marketing to lure people into throwing money at shoddily made products.
Sandboxes, themeparks or whatever really isn't the point here, we need fun games that it feels like you havn't already played for years.Good games sell and keep their players, but a MMO need to offer new things to be good.
It isn't the newness what it's about, but amount of content and variety in content. If people really craved new things that much, then most of the MMO gamers would jump onto every new MMO that came around to sate their hunger for something new and different.
FFXIV is different, DCUO is, as well as Xsyon, Perpetuum, heck, APB, CO, STO and MO were different enough from what most people were playing. Still, people didn't jump en masse to these MMO's even if they were different and offered new things that their current MMO's didn't offer like that.
If MMO gamers really were that hungry for new things, then the majority of them wouldn't stick around for years with their current MMO. Clearly familiarity > new things
As said, it's the amount of entertaining content and the variety in it that's more important to most MMO gamers: have enough content and variety, even in the endgame content, to keep players entertained and they'll stick around.
Originally posted by Akaronia
That I believe is way off base. Not everyone here has only played sandbox or themepark games. I believe the profit thing is more viable in the fact that at the end of the day you look at who is actually in control of these games it is not even the original makers and they are having to do what the guy with all of the shares in their company has says to do whether or not they as the original game makers like t or not due to contracts, mergers, and everything else that has gone on.
So, you're saying that only indie game companies make good games because those are truest to the vision of its makers?
Originally posted by Ceridith
Honestly, I don't care of themeparks exist. I'd just like publishers to wake up and realize that the freak success of WoW cannot be cloned. Instead, they should be aiming to find niche markets to develop MMOs for, and working to cater to them well, just like CCP has done with Eve. Sure it's not a cash cow, but CCP is steadily growing it's subscriber base with a decent profit over the years.
What WoW showed, is that its gameplay design is one that is liked by a lot more MMO gamers than former design formats did, even if WoW might turn out to be a perfect storm.
Besides, who says that EVE isn't a freak success that cannot be cloned? I have my doubts that if a sortlike game as EVE would be launched now, in the same low content and unpolished state as EVE launched, that it'd really be able to duplicate the success that EVE had.
The MMO playerbase has changed, they're far more impatient with MMO's and far less willing to give a game a second chance, unless the word of mouth is good.
And that's what it's really about. Have enough to offer in content and entertainment in an MMORPG, no matter what features they are, to keep a lot of the players happy for a long time, and they'll stick around and keep talking positive about the game. That's how WoW kept growing, people kept talking positively about their gameplay experiences in it, and a lot of players kept being entertained and having fun for a longer period of time than just 2-3 months.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
yea games were built by gamers during the pong era. Great. Games are still built by gamers but since the production value of those games aren't very high those (indie) games usually end up sucking.
Please are you really blaming games being industrialized on WoW? You act as if all these business men wouldn't have hopped on the huge gaming profit bandwagon anyway.. don't give me that.
Don't accept the point being made at your peril....... They are good ones and more valid than this poor OP:
The genre as was is near dead barring maybe 3 MMOs which still actually have some game content.
Dumbed down for the masses; Pay as yo win; The genre is suicidally short of gaming content very very poor and nothing barring a U change in the way the genre has gone will fix it.
Key areas that need to be removed:
Auction Houses
Auto Mail
Insta Craft
Insta Travel
Reintroduction of death penalties
Reintroduction of Mobs that can actually kill you
Removal of auto quests ; whack a mole gameplay.
However bad the original MMOs were they had gameplay and longevity and some decent worlds. Not any more.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Greatness is acheived through the process of failure.
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
Wolfy, if someone told you that not only you but everyone else in your profession as well was lazy, greedy and had no pride in their work, what would your response be?
I know it's easy to speak ill of EvilCorpCo, as it doesn't have a face and it isn't present in the conversation, and I know you'll probably disagree with the "stupid stuff" I'm about to say, but here it goes:
Of all the people I have spoken with or worked with in this industry, I have yet to meet one that wasn't passionate about his work. Maybe I've been lucky in that regard, but every programmer, every executive, every artist I have met has displayed so much enthusiasm and so much pride regarding what they do that I find it hard to buy into your view of them. I really think you're way off base on your assessment.
Artists, programmers and in some level designers dont have true power over what they do???
Artiists are told what to do
Programmers are told what to do
Designers are forced to add horrible mechanics because the publisher wants the gamee streamlined to crap to either reduce cost and improve sales. Many designers are simply forced to change some good mechanics or arent allowed to create truly good games due to less profit reasons.
Even writters have to usually follow a structure in order to make players to want to see what happens next
Phychology is also a dangerous knowledge if it is on the hands of horrible game designers like zygna...nuff said.
There are also many kidz brainorz developers who are only interesting in making "coolzorz" games and not really good games with a beautiful design. Cool games sell though to the masses but truly beautiful design artifacts dont
Some studios try to create good games but how can you do it without budget or with a huge budget that is only given if you are forced to follow the way of the publisher(example EA)
Ppl can take pride based on their standards
Artists should take pride in their art/models
Writters should take pride in their stories(how many horrible stories have you seen??the writer could take pride on that)
Programmers can take pride in ehm??? maybe the smoothness of the actions. A programmer is only working on a code and doesnt really do anything creative.
Designers should take pride on their game as an artifact but only what they created, that means the design, the mechanics. I am sure there are designers that take pride in lets say simple button masho hack and slasho combat games like god of war. The design there is pretty empty, yes there could be some psychology, and there could be some mechanics but the game is more about story so i can forgive it.
A kid can take pride in solving his first 1+1=2 math problem...
Tell that to a master mathematician.
And if you truly want to be good you should compare yourself and your design to the best. Being mediocore is pointless
P.S. i game can be fun even if you allow the players to have overpowered weapons and win others easily because Fun in psychology simply come down to a win to a "i feel better about myself"
Greatness is acheived through the process of failure.
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
Wolfy, if someone told you that not only you but everyone else in your profession as well was lazy, greedy and had no pride in their work, what would your response be?
I know it's easy to speak ill of EvilCorpCo, as it doesn't have a face and it isn't present in the conversation, and I know you'll probably disagree with the "stupid stuff" I'm about to say, but here it goes:
Of all the people I have spoken with or worked with in this industry, I have yet to meet one that wasn't passionate about his work. Maybe I've been lucky in that regard, but every programmer, every executive, every artist I have met has displayed so much enthusiasm and so much pride regarding what they do that I find it hard to buy into your view of them. I really think you're way off base on your assessment.
Artists, programmers and in some level designers dont have true power over what they do???
Artiists are told what to do
Programmers are told what to do
Designers are forced to add horrible mechanics because the publisher wants the gamee streamlined to crap to either reduce cost and improve sales. Many designers are simply forced to change some good mechanics or arent allowed to create truly good games due to less profit reasons.
Even writters have to usually follow a structure in order to make players to want to see what happens next
Phychology is also a dangerous knowledge if it is on the hands of horrible game designers like zygna...nuff said.
There are also many kidz brainorz developers who are only interesting in making "coolzorz" games and not really good games with a beautiful design. Cool games sell though to the masses but truly beautiful design artifacts dont
Some studios try to create good games but how can you do it without budget or with a huge budget that is only given if you are forced to follow the way of the publisher(example EA)
Ppl can take pride based on their standards
Artists should take pride in their art/models
Writters should take pride in their stories(how many horrible stories have you seen??the writer could take pride on that)
Programmers can take pride in ehm??? maybe the smoothness of the actions. A programmer is only working on a code and doesnt really do anything creative.
Designers should take pride on their game as an artifact but only what they created, that means the design, the mechanics. I am sure there are designers that take pride in lets say simple button masho hack and slasho combat games like god of war. The design there is pretty empty, yes there could be some psychology, and there could be some mechanics but the game is more about story so i can forgive it.
A kid can take pride in solving his first 1+1=2 math problem...
Tell that to a master mathematician.
And if you truly want to be good you should compare yourself and your design to the best. Being mediocore is pointless
P.S. i game can be fun even if you allow the players to have overpowered weapons and win others easily because Fun in psychology simply come down to a win to a "i feel better about myself"
I'm really not sure what you were trying to say there, but from what I could decipher it seems like you still feel that game developers don't care about games at all. I'll just chalk it up to us having different experiences in the industry and leave it at that. Cheers!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Greatness is acheived through the process of failure.
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
Wolfy, if someone told you that not only you but everyone else in your profession as well was lazy, greedy and had no pride in their work, what would your response be?
I know it's easy to speak ill of EvilCorpCo, as it doesn't have a face and it isn't present in the conversation, and I know you'll probably disagree with the "stupid stuff" I'm about to say, but here it goes:
Of all the people I have spoken with or worked with in this industry, I have yet to meet one that wasn't passionate about his work. Maybe I've been lucky in that regard, but every programmer, every executive, every artist I have met has displayed so much enthusiasm and so much pride regarding what they do that I find it hard to buy into your view of them. I really think you're way off base on your assessment.
Artists, programmers and in some level designers dont have true power over what they do???
Artiists are told what to do
Programmers are told what to do
Designers are forced to add horrible mechanics because the publisher wants the gamee streamlined to crap to either reduce cost and improve sales. Many designers are simply forced to change some good mechanics or arent allowed to create truly good games due to less profit reasons.
Even writters have to usually follow a structure in order to make players to want to see what happens next
Phychology is also a dangerous knowledge if it is on the hands of horrible game designers like zygna...nuff said.
There are also many kidz brainorz developers who are only interesting in making "coolzorz" games and not really good games with a beautiful design. Cool games sell though to the masses but truly beautiful design artifacts dont
Some studios try to create good games but how can you do it without budget or with a huge budget that is only given if you are forced to follow the way of the publisher(example EA)
Ppl can take pride based on their standards
Artists should take pride in their art/models
Writters should take pride in their stories(how many horrible stories have you seen??the writer could take pride on that)
Programmers can take pride in ehm??? maybe the smoothness of the actions. A programmer is only working on a code and doesnt really do anything creative.
Designers should take pride on their game as an artifact but only what they created, that means the design, the mechanics. I am sure there are designers that take pride in lets say simple button masho hack and slasho combat games like god of war. The design there is pretty empty, yes there could be some psychology, and there could be some mechanics but the game is more about story so i can forgive it.
A kid can take pride in solving his first 1+1=2 math problem...
Tell that to a master mathematician.
And if you truly want to be good you should compare yourself and your design to the best. Being mediocore is pointless
P.S. i game can be fun even if you allow the players to have overpowered weapons and win others easily because Fun in psychology simply come down to a win to a "i feel better about myself"
I'm really not sure what you were trying to say there, but from what I could decipher it seems like you still feel that game developers don't care about games at all. I'll just chalk it up to us having different experiences in the industry and leave it at that. Cheers!
No, maybe i worded it wrong, but i said that developers do care about their game, the publisher who controls them doesnt. I also said that stupid developers can have pride in horribly simplistic games.
Greatness is acheived through the process of failure.
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
Wolfy, if someone told you that not only you but everyone else in your profession as well was lazy, greedy and had no pride in their work, what would your response be?
I know it's easy to speak ill of EvilCorpCo, as it doesn't have a face and it isn't present in the conversation, and I know you'll probably disagree with the "stupid stuff" I'm about to say, but here it goes:
Of all the people I have spoken with or worked with in this industry, I have yet to meet one that wasn't passionate about his work. Maybe I've been lucky in that regard, but every programmer, every executive, every artist I have met has displayed so much enthusiasm and so much pride regarding what they do that I find it hard to buy into your view of them. I really think you're way off base on your assessment.
I'm sure the developers, programmers, etc, are all passionate about making a decent and enjoyable game.
How many of those same people are also in the position of deciding the scope, direction, development timelines, etc, of those same games?
At the end of the day, the people in the position to call the shots are at the beck and call of the company stakeholders, and that means that the number one priority is profit.
I get the impression that you (and from his last post, Wolfy) feel that developer studios are shackled to some Boss Hogg lookin' dude who couldn't care less about the quality or entertainment value of the games the company is making. That the impression you've been given is that everyone below the publishing house and the executive board has the decision-making power of the oarmen on a viking longboat.
That's simply not the case. I've met Castoro, Steefel, Anderson, Pétursson, Koster, Hanna, Tim Tan and plenty of other decision makers at multiple game studios. These guys love their games as much as anyone else on the team, and they are not evil overlords who stifle the feedback and suggestions of the team. While I don't deny that the caricature of a greedy fat cat that you portray may exist, I haven't seen much to indicate that was the norm.
Instead of trying to sway you away from your beliefs, though, I'll just offer what may be some consoling bits of information - the influence of the publisher isn't what it used to be. As games move to mobile platforms and digital distribution, there's less and less need for someone to back the cost of getting boxes on shelves. There's less or even zero need to turn to a company that can pull the strings necessary to get multiple SKUs onto a shelf or get that sweet endcap at SuperShopMart.
The likelihood of some coldhearted capitalist monster who has some mystical formula for getting good profit without creating a good product/service being at the helm is getting lower and lower.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Greatness is acheived through the process of failure.
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
Wolfy, if someone told you that not only you but everyone else in your profession as well was lazy, greedy and had no pride in their work, what would your response be?
I know it's easy to speak ill of EvilCorpCo, as it doesn't have a face and it isn't present in the conversation, and I know you'll probably disagree with the "stupid stuff" I'm about to say, but here it goes:
Of all the people I have spoken with or worked with in this industry, I have yet to meet one that wasn't passionate about his work. Maybe I've been lucky in that regard, but every programmer, every executive, every artist I have met has displayed so much enthusiasm and so much pride regarding what they do that I find it hard to buy into your view of them. I really think you're way off base on your assessment.
I'm sure the developers, programmers, etc, are all passionate about making a decent and enjoyable game.
How many of those same people are also in the position of deciding the scope, direction, development timelines, etc, of those same games?
At the end of the day, the people in the position to call the shots are at the beck and call of the company stakeholders, and that means that the number one priority is profit.
I get the impression that you (and from his last post, Wolfy) feel that developer studios are shackled to some Boss Hogg lookin' dude who couldn't care less about the quality or entertainment value of the games the company is making. That the impression you've been given is that everyone below the publishing house and the executive board has the decision-making power of the oarmen on a viking longboat.
That's simply not the case. I've met Castoro, Steefel, Anderson, Pétursson, Koster, Hanna, Tim Tan and plenty of other decision makers at multiple game studios. These guys love their games as much as anyone else on the team, and they are not evil overlords who stifle the feedback and suggestions of the team. While I don't deny that the caricature of a greedy fat cat that you portray may exist, I haven't seen much to indicate that was the norm.
Instead of trying to sway you away from your beliefs, though, I'll just offer what may be some consoling bits of information - the influence of the publisher isn't what it used to be. As games move to mobile platforms and digital distribution, there's less and less need for someone to back the cost of getting boxes on shelves. There's less or even zero need to turn to a company that can pull the strings necessary to get multiple SKUs onto a shelf or get that sweet endcap at SuperShopMart.
The likelihood of some coldhearted capitalist monster who has some mystical formula for getting good profit without creating a good product/service being at the helm is getting lower and lower.
Ye i think this is mostly since the designers already know what they need to do and has become pretty much standard to have a few things in games....
I dont mean that designers have low control over their game but if the publisher doesnt approve of something or believes it needs more they can do it anytime. Theres no way a publisher will allow a developer to spend 150 million in a game that is only going to sell few copies
Comments
Thats just the thing. People showed up while we were passing around the steak sauce and tried to talk us into eating stale hooves and ears. We told them to gtfo because we weren't eating that shit.
Two old dungeons were re-released. I hardly count that as "new" content.
A number of "oldschool" MMOs may still be abvailable, but they are only so in name only.
Take for example Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. Today they are absolutely nothing like they were in their original state. In fact, it could be very strongly argued that they are completely different games now, and the only commonality they had from their original state is that they use the same base game engine. The gameplay of these games however, are nothing like what they originally were.
As per playing on 'private servers'. Firstly, this is not legal. Secondly, this still does not offer near the same level of quality, and in most cases they also do not fully 'emulate' all of the content of the original game.
Sure you may have 'experienced' the oldschool MMOs, but your personal opinion is that oldschool MMOs were flawed and inferior to new MMOs is just that, opinion. Just like it's my opinion, and that of others, that new MMOs can have all the polish possible, and it still won't make them decent games at the core of gameplay, because they're designed to only appeal to players on a superficial level.
And the problem is hooves and ears are all that's available anymore- because they are far cheaper to come by and those ignorant regarding steaks and such gladly lap it up until they get bored and move on to more hooves and ears presented in a slightly different fashion.
As with everything in life, there are far more ignorant than knowledgeable.
Or maybe you just thought you were eating steak but all anyone else saw were hooves and ears.
I'm having more fun in newer games than I did in EQ and way more than SWG. They were fun but I think these are better. I have more choice and more options on how I choose to play.
Venge
Yes but this isnt what games were trying to do, games want money not GOOD GAMES...
Your are completely wrong if you believe they are doing research...
The only think i can definitely say through that "research" is that they found out how to sell crap for gold, they dont care about games at all. So dont say stupid stuff plz they only want to find a profitable recipe, not good game mechanics through testing
The only research they're doing, is how to make the most money with the smallest amount of investment possible.
If the WoW sparkle pony scenario is any indication, the industry has little hope of 'getting better' anytime soon.
And yet I'm sure they know, as do we, that a good game will make good money and so they make what they believe are good games.
Venge
Which is what the entire problem is.
Good games to them are games that will 'appeal' to the masses and get them opening their wallets. Even if the game itself is complete junk that gets stale after a month, so long as they can turn a profit off original box sales at a decent ROI rate, they're happy.
It's what Cryptic's development philosophy has been, and for their last two releases, it's worked like a charm at making them profit per what they invested in development, even if their games have been declared horrendous flops not long after release.
This a great post for me and my OP in the "What made old MMO's harder thread" tried to get this across. I started playing MMO's in 2007 in WoW and had surprisingly similar experiences to what many of the older vets had "back in the day" but in a game that is touted as easymode, solo ceniric with a bad community. I ran a guild and had great times socialising and playing the game with us helping each other out with all sorts of things. The thing that makes an MMO is its community but communities are much more varied and disparate these days so it takes more effort to find a great guild of like minded players than in the past when all players came from similar backgrounds.
Cal.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Wolfy, if someone told you that not only you but everyone else in your profession as well was lazy, greedy and had no pride in their work, what would your response be?
I know it's easy to speak ill of EvilCorpCo, as it doesn't have a face and it isn't present in the conversation, and I know you'll probably disagree with the "stupid stuff" I'm about to say, but here it goes:
Of all the people I have spoken with or worked with in this industry, I have yet to meet one that wasn't passionate about his work. Maybe I've been lucky in that regard, but every programmer, every executive, every artist I have met has displayed so much enthusiasm and so much pride regarding what they do that I find it hard to buy into your view of them. I really think you're way off base on your assessment.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm sure the developers, programmers, etc, are all passionate about making a decent and enjoyable game.
How many of those same people are also in the position of deciding the scope, direction, development timelines, etc, of those same games?
At the end of the day, the people in the position to call the shots are at the beck and call of the company stakeholders, and that means that the number one priority is profit.
Shrug. Such nonsense. Every game company, whether it's small indie company, a big corporation or something inbetween is making their games for profit, it isn't for charity that they're doing it, it's their job, their livelihood.
That doesn't mean that devs and designers can't be passionate about what they do.
That whole argument is camouflage, the heart of the matter is simply that sandbox fans or themepark critics are frustrated because there haven't been many MMO's released of the type that they liked, that's why the hating and bashing on popular MMO's that are of a subgenre that they dislike.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Of course everyone needs money, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy your job (even if most people don't).
But still, I feel like many companies just try to make more or less exactly the same as older more successful games instead of making a game that is fun in itself. Just stealing what everyone already is doing might work in the music industry but for MMOs people actually need to feel like hey are playing a different game since they have invested a lot of time and work in their characters. People don't change for just prettier graphics.
Sandboxes, themeparks or whatever really isn't the point here, we need fun games that it feels like you havn't already played for years.Good games sell and keep their players, but a MMO need to offer new things to be good.
That I believe is way off base. Not everyone here has only played sandbox or themepark games. I believe the profit thing is more viable in the fact that at the end of the day you look at who is actually in control of these games it is not even the original makers and they are having to do what the guy with all of the shares in their company has says to do whether or not they as the original game makers like t or not due to contracts, mergers, and everything else that has gone on.
The way the original game maker failed was by allowing one company to have too much power in theirs and thus lose control over options of what to put into the game because the big guys are saying this is what is going to make profits and infact the decline in subscriptions on some of these games speak for themselves. I do believe that speaks for who should actually be making the decisions on what to put in their own game.
Of course it doesn't. The point is that if the people who are make the final decision on the direction of the game's development are beholden to the need to make money. As such, even if the designers, developer, programmers, and everyone else in between actually developing the game are passionate about it, it's tarnished by the pursuit of profit corrupting the development direction and goals set by those at the top. This has become more of an issue in recent years since the world has seen just how successful an MMO can be, and now countless stakeholders want it replicated to have their own cash cow.
Honestly, I don't care of themeparks exist. I'd just like publishers to wake up and realize that the freak success of WoW cannot be cloned. Instead, they should be aiming to find niche markets to develop MMOs for, and working to cater to them well, just like CCP has done with Eve. Sure it's not a cash cow, but CCP is steadily growing it's subscriber base with a decent profit over the years.
But that seems to the be the sad trend of business these days. Making a quick buck with the smallest amount of effort possible. Apparently the concept of creating respectable products and services as a means of generating profit has been replaced with using bait and switch marketing to lure people into throwing money at shoddily made products.
It isn't the newness what it's about, but amount of content and variety in content. If people really craved new things that much, then most of the MMO gamers would jump onto every new MMO that came around to sate their hunger for something new and different.
FFXIV is different, DCUO is, as well as Xsyon, Perpetuum, heck, APB, CO, STO and MO were different enough from what most people were playing. Still, people didn't jump en masse to these MMO's even if they were different and offered new things that their current MMO's didn't offer like that.
If MMO gamers really were that hungry for new things, then the majority of them wouldn't stick around for years with their current MMO. Clearly familiarity > new things
As said, it's the amount of entertaining content and the variety in it that's more important to most MMO gamers: have enough content and variety, even in the endgame content, to keep players entertained and they'll stick around.
So, you're saying that only indie game companies make good games because those are truest to the vision of its makers?
What WoW showed, is that its gameplay design is one that is liked by a lot more MMO gamers than former design formats did, even if WoW might turn out to be a perfect storm.
Besides, who says that EVE isn't a freak success that cannot be cloned? I have my doubts that if a sortlike game as EVE would be launched now, in the same low content and unpolished state as EVE launched, that it'd really be able to duplicate the success that EVE had.
The MMO playerbase has changed, they're far more impatient with MMO's and far less willing to give a game a second chance, unless the word of mouth is good.
And that's what it's really about. Have enough to offer in content and entertainment in an MMORPG, no matter what features they are, to keep a lot of the players happy for a long time, and they'll stick around and keep talking positive about the game. That's how WoW kept growing, people kept talking positively about their gameplay experiences in it, and a lot of players kept being entertained and having fun for a longer period of time than just 2-3 months.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Don't accept the point being made at your peril....... They are good ones and more valid than this poor OP:
The genre as was is near dead barring maybe 3 MMOs which still actually have some game content.
Dumbed down for the masses; Pay as yo win; The genre is suicidally short of gaming content very very poor and nothing barring a U change in the way the genre has gone will fix it.
Key areas that need to be removed:
Auction Houses
Auto Mail
Insta Craft
Insta Travel
Reintroduction of death penalties
Reintroduction of Mobs that can actually kill you
Removal of auto quests ; whack a mole gameplay.
However bad the original MMOs were they had gameplay and longevity and some decent worlds. Not any more.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
The formula for a sucessful MMO is quite easy, yet somehow incredible difficult, but can be stated quite easily in the following:
"A successful MMO gives the majority of its players an entertaining experience on a longterm basis"
Well, that sums up the core of how you bring along a sucessful MMO. Most MMO fails are related to the lack of entertainment and the longterm.
Yep, sums it up perfectly.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Artists, programmers and in some level designers dont have true power over what they do???
Artiists are told what to do
Programmers are told what to do
Designers are forced to add horrible mechanics because the publisher wants the gamee streamlined to crap to either reduce cost and improve sales. Many designers are simply forced to change some good mechanics or arent allowed to create truly good games due to less profit reasons.
Even writters have to usually follow a structure in order to make players to want to see what happens next
Phychology is also a dangerous knowledge if it is on the hands of horrible game designers like zygna...nuff said.
There are also many kidz brainorz developers who are only interesting in making "coolzorz" games and not really good games with a beautiful design. Cool games sell though to the masses but truly beautiful design artifacts dont
Some studios try to create good games but how can you do it without budget or with a huge budget that is only given if you are forced to follow the way of the publisher(example EA)
Ppl can take pride based on their standards
Artists should take pride in their art/models
Writters should take pride in their stories(how many horrible stories have you seen??the writer could take pride on that)
Programmers can take pride in ehm??? maybe the smoothness of the actions. A programmer is only working on a code and doesnt really do anything creative.
Designers should take pride on their game as an artifact but only what they created, that means the design, the mechanics. I am sure there are designers that take pride in lets say simple button masho hack and slasho combat games like god of war. The design there is pretty empty, yes there could be some psychology, and there could be some mechanics but the game is more about story so i can forgive it.
A kid can take pride in solving his first 1+1=2 math problem...
Tell that to a master mathematician.
And if you truly want to be good you should compare yourself and your design to the best. Being mediocore is pointless
P.S. i game can be fun even if you allow the players to have overpowered weapons and win others easily because Fun in psychology simply come down to a win to a "i feel better about myself"
I'm really not sure what you were trying to say there, but from what I could decipher it seems like you still feel that game developers don't care about games at all. I'll just chalk it up to us having different experiences in the industry and leave it at that. Cheers!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No, maybe i worded it wrong, but i said that developers do care about their game, the publisher who controls them doesnt. I also said that stupid developers can have pride in horribly simplistic games.
I get the impression that you (and from his last post, Wolfy) feel that developer studios are shackled to some Boss Hogg lookin' dude who couldn't care less about the quality or entertainment value of the games the company is making. That the impression you've been given is that everyone below the publishing house and the executive board has the decision-making power of the oarmen on a viking longboat.
That's simply not the case. I've met Castoro, Steefel, Anderson, Pétursson, Koster, Hanna, Tim Tan and plenty of other decision makers at multiple game studios. These guys love their games as much as anyone else on the team, and they are not evil overlords who stifle the feedback and suggestions of the team. While I don't deny that the caricature of a greedy fat cat that you portray may exist, I haven't seen much to indicate that was the norm.
Instead of trying to sway you away from your beliefs, though, I'll just offer what may be some consoling bits of information - the influence of the publisher isn't what it used to be. As games move to mobile platforms and digital distribution, there's less and less need for someone to back the cost of getting boxes on shelves. There's less or even zero need to turn to a company that can pull the strings necessary to get multiple SKUs onto a shelf or get that sweet endcap at SuperShopMart.
The likelihood of some coldhearted capitalist monster who has some mystical formula for getting good profit without creating a good product/service being at the helm is getting lower and lower.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ye i think this is mostly since the designers already know what they need to do and has become pretty much standard to have a few things in games....
I dont mean that designers have low control over their game but if the publisher doesnt approve of something or believes it needs more they can do it anytime. Theres no way a publisher will allow a developer to spend 150 million in a game that is only going to sell few copies