There are more companies succeeding? Where? The only semi-successful MMO of the last 6 years I can think of is Aion in asia, and Darkfall. LotRO lost hundreds of thousands of its beta subscribers when it switched from MEO to the LotRO model, and never became a runaway success (so much so that it had to go FTP). AoC crashed so hard most of its partners went backrupt. WAR failed so hard Mythic got disolved. Tabula Rasa failed so hard it got shut down. Star Trek Online failed so hard that hardly anyone even remembers it. What big MMO has come out in the last 7 years that was a runaway success? None. In the past? What MMOs in the past became big successes after launch? Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, SWG (despite the rocky start), City of Heroes.. .
Nonsense. Most AAA MMO's post-WoW have had sub numbers equal to or more than as good as all of the pre-WoW MMO's you mentioned. Even if that were true (which it isn't, for most of the games listed) That.s a bad thing. When there's supposedly a lot more people playing MMOs nowadays, the sub number sshouuld be higher. Especially when you consider that old MMOs took about 30 devs a few years to make, getting 350k subscribers was a great success. Nowadays, an MMO that takes 100-200 people to make, with millions of dollars in marketing budget alone, having 350k subs is a collosal failure. That's nostalgia and a craving for the past coloring your perception. The only reason that people stuck longer with an MMO because there was hardly any choice there was plenty of choice, a lot more choice than there is now. There were at least 7-8 solid successful and growing MMORPGs at the time, nowadays there's 2, just like how larger parts of the viewing population in the '50s and '60s tuned in on the same shows because there was only a few tv channels.
Aion still have populations in the millions yet crashed and burned in America .
Only hillbillie elitists thinks that there exists no world outside of America, or that Asian gamers don't exist or count. The sheer arrogance...
The old games I liked are gone. There are few if any new games that interest me. This is my favorite genre, why should I leave just because you tell me to? I'm going to fight for a genre that isn't terrible. Maybe one day we can get back a semblance of the quality that saturated this genre before the dark ages hit after WoW .
Yes, the past is gone. People could pine for the optimistic '50s or the roaring '60s, but the past is the past, things will never be the same like that again. Same with everything in life, same with MMO's. However, I think there's enough to enjoy for all kinds of gamers in the next few years, even for those that hate themepark styled MMO's from the bottom of their hearts.
There's no reason for the past to be gone. We just need some companies to start making original games again.
The industry is doing very well. More money, more people, more games, more companies, more growth on every area, and now more ideas. On every objective level the industry is doing better.
It's time you either left the genre or just started playing the game old or new that interests you.
Venge
Creativity, depth, complexity, longetivity and building on the virtual world concept which initially spawned the genre I assume is not objective levels for you.
The MMORPG genre is like the fast food industry. It makes more money, more people are eating it, more fast food stores are being opened, there is growth in every area. But is it good, healthy and nutritous food? Many experts say no.
None of those things are objective enough.
WOW has no complexity? Then how do you explain you need youtube movies to teach fights because the majority of people that play simple games are simple themselves, and their raids are so broken that the only way they can feign difficulty is to make them scripted "one way to win" affairs?
Always the response of the one with no argument, "everyone that doesn't like what I like is simple."
Sheesh
Venge
Way to ignore everything I said about your wall of text that I debunked.
There's no reason for the past to be gone. We just need some companies to start making original games again.
Read what you said carefully. It is totally illogical. If it is original, it will not be from the past. I think TOR has it right. Innovate by putting single player thinking (i.e. story) into MMOs.
There's no reason for the past to be gone. We just need some companies to start making original games again.
Read what you said carefully. It is totally illogical. If it is original, it will not be from the past. I think TOR has it right. Innovate by putting single player thinking (i.e. story) into MMOs.
Wow. Way to throw in the monkey wrench of logic, Nariusseldon.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
In what way?
WoW has more active subs than ever. More MMO titles are being released than ever before, and MMO budgets rival that of blockbuster movies.
"One great game and 10 crappy ones" applies to the entire gaming industry. Do you know how many failed FPS games there are? Thousands, I'm sure. Stop citing this. FPS games are doing great, and only about 5% of them are games that people actually play longer than a week.. The industry is fine, if not better than ever.
Most of you have just outgrown these games and are afraid to admit it. They no longer do it for you - failing to consider there is an entire generation playing these games for the first time and LOVING them.
People said the same exact this about the music industry when rap became popular. All the older people listening to classic rock stations swore music was ruined forever. Well, it wasn't.
The McDonald's arguement in posts above makes no sense either. Wether the content they provide is good or not, the industry is still booming whether you like it or not.
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
In what way?
WoW has more active subs than ever. More MMO titles are being released than ever before, and MMO budgets rival that of blockbuster movies.
Are you seriously trying to say that nothing has change and that we've merely outgrown games? Oh boy..read the rest of the thread, your quoted question has been answered a million times. I think you'd have to be braindead to pose a question like that.
WoW has more active subs than ever. More MMO titles are being released than ever before, and MMO budgets rival that of blockbuster movies.
Are you seriously trying to say that nothing has change and that we've merely outgrown games? Oh boy..read the rest of the thread, your quoted question has been answered a million times. I think you'd have to be braindead to pose a question like that.
He was being rhetorical, if you didn't see it.
It's obvious that he doesn't agree with any decline, and he's providing the answer himself as to why he doesn't believe it.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think the next big change in MMO's will be price structure. There will be more buy to play and F2P with microtransaction games doing well over the newxt two years I think. This will gradually errode players from the subscription model adopted by the bigger MMO's at the current time and eventually may well force a reduction in subscription fees with a distinct possibility that all new MMO's will have a Free to play option.
Companies that fail to forsee this are likely to fail to adapt quickly enough and as a result crash and burn. For the MMO producers this is probably the beginning of the end for the golden age of subscription fees.
What does this have to do with the WoW Vs Every new MMO out there ? quite a lot actually. with the erosion of players to an ever widening plethora of F2P options WoW's playerbase will get smaller & I think with less people hooked into the financial comittment of X hundred hours played and x$ spent on subscriptions it means more people will change MMO more often.
For every great game there are 10 games of crap that come before it. Greatness is acheived through the process of failure. So of course there are going to be games that are complete crap and watered down clones of other games that were even more crap. It's always been this way, there's nothing new about this. So why are all these gamer's suddenly acting like the MMO industry is going to hell in a hand basket when it's doing exactly what it has been doing for the past decade.
Last year was bad for MMO's, it happens. This year is looking great for MMO's, with games like GW2, ArcheAge, Secret World and countless F2P's that look like they'll actually compete with sub games. Games take time to evolve and become what us gamers want. So stop acting like MMO's were "ruined by WoW" and will never recover from this non-existent tragic state that your putting them in.
Keep in mind that MMORPG's have become ten times more popular than they ever have been. Yet there's all these veteran old time gamer's on this site that complain about how watered down and simple todays games are. Well here's the problem, things just aren't as simple as they used to be. Back in the day PvP could get away with being embalanced, death penalties could be harsh, grouping was much easier, and a good community was alot easier to maintain especially when your playerbase was less than half of what it is in today's average MMORPG. Developers didn't have to worry about pleasing millions of gamers because MMO's simply weren't as popular then. Thing's aren't so simple and many MMO's are actually doing alot better than this sites "veteran" community gives them credit for.
MMORPGs are more mainstream because video games are more mainstream. It doesn't speak anything for the quality of games released. This year was bad for MMOs? Try the last seven years. You say failure needs to happen for great games to come about... well the ratio to great games to failure seemed pretty good pre WoW. Asheron's Call 2, failure. Dark Age of cameot, amazing evolution. Now you just have... failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure.
MMOs WERE ruined by WoW. There is absolutely no arguing that. The ONLY defense people have against that is "but look at all the people playing MMOs now". No, wake up. Look at all the people playing WoW. That does NOT equal the people playing MMOs, just like all the people with Wiis are suddenly going to start playing Oblivion or Gears of War.
You say games are better than we give them credit for? How? By being so shallow and outdated that games from the 90s make them look like a high school project? People don't expect MORE from games these days, they expect MUCH MUCH less. If a game has a gimmicky feature (Rifts) it'll be hailed as amazing, even if that feature has been seen in about 6 previous MMOs. It can be identical in every way to WoW, but one little difference and its all ok.
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
For every great game there are 10 games of crap that come before it. Greatness is acheived through the process of failure. So of course there are going to be games that are complete crap and watered down clones of other games that were even more crap. It's always been this way, there's nothing new about this. So why are all these gamer's suddenly acting like the MMO industry is going to hell in a hand basket when it's doing exactly what it has been doing for the past decade.
Last year was bad for MMO's, it happens. This year is looking great for MMO's, with games like GW2, ArcheAge, Secret World and countless F2P's that look like they'll actually compete with sub games. Games take time to evolve and become what us gamers want. So stop acting like MMO's were "ruined by WoW" and will never recover from this non-existent tragic state that your putting them in.
Keep in mind that MMORPG's have become ten times more popular than they ever have been. Yet there's all these veteran old time gamer's on this site that complain about how watered down and simple todays games are. Well here's the problem, things just aren't as simple as they used to be. Back in the day PvP could get away with being embalanced, death penalties could be harsh, grouping was much easier, and a good community was alot easier to maintain especially when your playerbase was less than half of what it is in today's average MMORPG. Developers didn't have to worry about pleasing millions of gamers because MMO's simply weren't as popular then. Thing's aren't so simple and many MMO's are actually doing alot better than this sites "veteran" community gives them credit for.
MMORPGs are more mainstream because video games are more mainstream. It doesn't speak anything for the quality of games released. This year was bad for MMOs? Try the last seven years. You say failure needs to happen for great games to come about... well the ratio to great games to failure seemed pretty good pre WoW. Asheron's Call 2, failure. Dark Age of cameot, amazing evolution. Now you just have... failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure.
MMOs WERE ruined by WoW. There is absolutely no arguing that. The ONLY defense people have against that is "but look at all the people playing MMOs now". No, wake up. Look at all the people playing WoW. That does NOT equal the people playing MMOs, just like all the people with Wiis are suddenly going to start playing Oblivion or Gears of War.
You say games are better than we give them credit for? How? By being so shallow and outdated that games from the 90s make them look like a high school project? People don't expect MORE from games these days, they expect MUCH MUCH less. If a game has a gimmicky feature (Rifts) it'll be hailed as amazing, even if that feature has been seen in about 6 previous MMOs. It can be identical in every way to WoW, but one little difference and its all ok.
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
Yeah, tell that to Funcom. Or Fallen Earth. Or WAR. Or Vanguard. I'm sure they'd love some of this endless profits and success you're talking about. (And before you say those were all successes, then why are all four of those companies that made those MMOs either now nonexistant or 1/8th their original size?)
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
He meant 'the genre is in a horrible place for him', it's just opinion, nothing more weight to it than that.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What makes this thread interesting is the amount of vitriol each side is levelling against the other. And for what?
Firing the first salvo are these "new skool pundits" like i00x00i and MMO.Maverick. They say that the MMO business is doing fine, the future is going to be even better than today, and that the "old skool vets" should just leave and not expect anything for them in the future, because they are irrelevant.
Now if you want to look at the number of people playing online games, I have to say the "new skool pundits" have a point. There are many, many more people playing online games today compared with ten years ago. The majority of these people are not what we would call "old skool vets" in terms of what they want from games.
I don't think the "old skool vets" will dispute that.
What I think they do dispute is this notion that "the future will be better." On what basis? On the basis of the hype and budgets of the new MMOs that are coming out? We've heard all that hype before. I remember the hype around Vanguard, AoC, Darkfall, WAR, Aion, Global Agenda, Final Fantasy MCCLLVII (I hope you get my humor), Champions, DC, FreeRealms, STO, and many more too numerous to mention. All of them had features that we claimed would revolutionize online gaming. Some have been, and a few continue to be, moderately successful; but we can't think of these past several years as "banner years." Both the "new skool pundits" and the "old skool vets" agree on that.
What confuses me about these "new skool pundits" is their belief that this year is going to be "special," a new renaissance or something. That SWTOR, Perfect World, Rift, GW2, and all these new games are going to take MMO gaming to the next level.
Which brings me to my first question: what makes these new games so "special?" What is the thing or the things that they will do to create this new renaissance? Because everything I've seen over the past several years seems to indicate that features don't attract gamers. If they did, WoW would have been suplanted long ago, because AoC, Vanguard, Aion, Global Agenda, and all the afforementioned games had features WoW didn't have.
You see, I'm not convinced that this MMO thing is a growing industry. It was back when WoW launched, but that was when China, Korea, and parts of Europe weren't sufficiently tapped. The 2000s were all about attracting new people to the joys of online gaming. But now it seems that everyone who wants to be online playing games is already on line playing games.
The trends in pricing and marketing of online games has only reaffirmed this to me. FTP is an attempt to get more people hooked on MMOs. It's been around for a good number of years now. It may have attracted some, but how many of these people are staying? That's the big question.
There are more ways to entertain yourself digitally than ever before. MMOs have to compete with Facebook apps, phone apps, add-on content from consoles, as well as the traditional alternatives to MMOs: peer-to-peer games, games like Rock Band and Dance, Dance, Revolution, and single player action/adventure/RPG titles. What is the thing that is going to set MMOs apart from these other offerings?
If anything, MMOs like WoW and these new titles launching soon are the "hunted" today, not the hunter like what they were in the 2000s. Signs from the major studios, like the layoffs and cancelled titles from SOE, only reaffirm the notion that this is a mature industry that is fighting for its financial viability. WoW is doing well (for now), but if WoW were to disappear tomorrow, what sort of industry would this be?
So while I have to agree with the "new skool pundits" that the "MMO industry is doing just fine," I just have to add "for now" after the title. Because they can't give me any proof that this is still a growing industry.
My point is that most MMO veterans on this forumn seem to think that "Vanguard, AoC, Darkfall, WAR, Aion, Global Agenda, Champions, DC, FreeRealms, STO" as you listed, have failed miserably. Well I'm sorry to inform you but the majority of them have not. This is your opinion. Most of these games still have a hefty playerbase and are continuing to make profit. Yes, their actually doing just fine.
I think the problem is that all of these post WoW MMO's have been lurking in the shadows of WoW's success but needless to say that's not neccesarily a bad thing. The boasted worldwide 12 million subs that WoW claimed was an amazing feat and it's no wonder so many games looked bad when compared to the success of WoW . Again, compared to the abnormal success of one game yes post WoW games may seem to have failed, but the fact remains that they made profit and pulled in a fair amount of subscriptions, therefor they did not fail.
Let me give you an example. It's like compairing a small town market to Wal-Mart, just because that small market doesn't rake in the billions that Wal-Mart does, doesn't make it unsuccessful. And even if you don't like the small-town markets food, it's still in business because of the people that do.
As far as why I think this year and every year after this will be better for MMO's than the past 7 is simply because WoW is dieing. For the past 7 years most gamers (may not include yourself) have been on a WoW buzz. It was the sensation and everybody loved it. However, I believe that WoW is nearing its end. Subscriptions are dropping and fans are finaly loosing their buzz. Hopefully, this will give new MMO's room to shine and give older MMO's that have lurked in the shadows more success. Of course this is just my opinion.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
For every great game there are 10 games of crap that come before it. Greatness is acheived through the process of failure. So of course there are going to be games that are complete crap and watered down clones of other games that were even more crap. It's always been this way, there's nothing new about this. So why are all these gamer's suddenly acting like the MMO industry is going to hell in a hand basket when it's doing exactly what it has been doing for the past decade.
Last year was bad for MMO's, it happens. This year is looking great for MMO's, with games like GW2, ArcheAge, Secret World and countless F2P's that look like they'll actually compete with sub games. Games take time to evolve and become what us gamers want. So stop acting like MMO's were "ruined by WoW" and will never recover from this non-existent tragic state that your putting them in.
Keep in mind that MMORPG's have become ten times more popular than they ever have been. Yet there's all these veteran old time gamer's on this site that complain about how watered down and simple todays games are. Well here's the problem, things just aren't as simple as they used to be. Back in the day PvP could get away with being embalanced, death penalties could be harsh, grouping was much easier, and a good community was alot easier to maintain especially when your playerbase was less than half of what it is in today's average MMORPG. Developers didn't have to worry about pleasing millions of gamers because MMO's simply weren't as popular then. Thing's aren't so simple and many MMO's are actually doing alot better than this sites "veteran" community gives them credit for.
MMORPGs are more mainstream because video games are more mainstream. It doesn't speak anything for the quality of games released. This year was bad for MMOs? Try the last seven years. You say failure needs to happen for great games to come about... well the ratio to great games to failure seemed pretty good pre WoW. Asheron's Call 2, failure. Dark Age of cameot, amazing evolution. Now you just have... failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure.
MMOs WERE ruined by WoW. There is absolutely no arguing that. The ONLY defense people have against that is "but look at all the people playing MMOs now". No, wake up. Look at all the people playing WoW. That does NOT equal the people playing MMOs, just like all the people with Wiis are suddenly going to start playing Oblivion or Gears of War.
You say games are better than we give them credit for? How? By being so shallow and outdated that games from the 90s make them look like a high school project? People don't expect MORE from games these days, they expect MUCH MUCH less. If a game has a gimmicky feature (Rifts) it'll be hailed as amazing, even if that feature has been seen in about 6 previous MMOs. It can be identical in every way to WoW, but one little difference and its all ok.
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
Yeah, tell that to Funcom. Or Fallen Earth. Or WAR. Or Vanguard. I'm sure they'd love some of this endless profits and success you're talking about. (And before you say those were all successes, then why are all four of those companies that made those MMOs either now nonexistant or 1/8th their original size?)
I didn't say every MMO was a hit (3 MMO's you listed). But a link or maybe some evidence proving that even these games have not made a profit would be great.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
In what way?
WoW has more active subs than ever. More MMO titles are being released than ever before, and MMO budgets rival that of blockbuster movies.
"One great game and 10 crappy ones" applies to the entire gaming industry. Do you know how many failed FPS games there are? Thousands, I'm sure. Stop citing this. FPS games are doing great, and only about 5% of them are games that people actually play longer than a week.. The industry is fine, if not better than ever.
Most of you have just outgrown these games and are afraid to admit it. They no longer do it for you - failing to consider there is an entire generation playing these games for the first time and LOVING them.
People said the same exact this about the music industry when rap became popular. All the older people listening to classic rock stations swore music was ruined forever. Well, it wasn't.
The McDonald's arguement in posts above makes no sense either. Wether the content they provide is good or not, the industry is still booming whether you like it or not.
Soo many people seriously need to get a clue.
^ This
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
He meant 'the genre is in a horrible place for him', it's just opinion, nothing more weight to it than that.
Not really, I don't think anyone could make a solid argument that the genre is doing well, considering all the clones and rehashes we've gotten, and all the unsuccesful companies. The one argument (which has already been debunked) people keep falling back on is "But there's so many more people playing!" And well, if that were true, then why do many modern MMOs have equal or less subs than old MMOs? The stagnation is hurting everyone.
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
In what way?
WoW has more active subs than ever. More MMO titles are being released than ever before, and MMO budgets rival that of blockbuster movies.
"One great game and 10 crappy ones" applies to the entire gaming industry. Do you know how many failed FPS games there are? Thousands, I'm sure. Stop citing this. FPS games are doing great, and only about 5% of them are games that people actually play longer than a week.. The industry is fine, if not better than ever.
Most of you have just outgrown these games and are afraid to admit it. They no longer do it for you - failing to consider there is an entire generation playing these games for the first time and LOVING them.
People said the same exact this about the music industry when rap became popular. All the older people listening to classic rock stations swore music was ruined forever. Well, it wasn't.
The McDonald's arguement in posts above makes no sense either. Wether the content they provide is good or not, the industry is still booming whether you like it or not.
Soo many people seriously need to get a clue.
^ This
I love how we have veterans pulling up numbers, examples, supporting arguments, examples, and all these people trying to put a good face on the dark days of the genre say "Nuh uh, you've just outgrown games!" or "but there's so many more gamers now!" Way to debate guys, way to debate. If I didn't know better I'd say you were trolling, but you probably just don't understand.
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
He meant 'the genre is in a horrible place for him', it's just opinion, nothing more weight to it than that.
Not really, I don't think anyone could make a solid argument that the genre is doing well, considering all the clones and rehashes we've gotten, and all the unsuccesful companies. The one argument (which has already been debunked) people keep falling back on is "But there's so many more people playing!" And well, if that were true, then why do many modern MMOs have equal or less subs than old MMOs? The stagnation is hurting everyone.
...other than people who base their argument on facts and data.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
He meant 'the genre is in a horrible place for him', it's just opinion, nothing more weight to it than that.
Not really, I don't think anyone could make a solid argument that the genre is doing well, considering all the clones and rehashes we've gotten, and all the unsuccesful companies. The one argument (which has already been debunked) people keep falling back on is "But there's so many more people playing!" And well, if that were true, then why do many modern MMOs have equal or less subs than old MMOs? The stagnation is hurting everyone.
...other than people who base their argument on facts and data.
Which I have done, yet people seem to ignore for whatever reason. So basically, the argument you come to again is, "There's tons of people playing MMOs!" Well, aint that fantastic. Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old. Why have new MMOs done so badly, and how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition? The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
He meant 'the genre is in a horrible place for him', it's just opinion, nothing more weight to it than that.
Not really, I don't think anyone could make a solid argument that the genre is doing well, considering all the clones and rehashes we've gotten, and all the unsuccesful companies. The one argument (which has already been debunked) people keep falling back on is "But there's so many more people playing!" And well, if that were true, then why do many modern MMOs have equal or less subs than old MMOs? The stagnation is hurting everyone.
...other than people who base their argument on facts and data.
Which I have done, yet people seem to ignore for whatever reason. So basically, the argument you come to again is, "There's tons of people playing MMOs!" Well, aint that fantastic. Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old. Why have new MMOs done so badly, and how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition? The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
The problem with your argument is that you have arbitrarily defined some personal subset of the MMO market inside of which there are only two large and growing MMOs. You also claim that new MMOs are doing badly which is also false unles you create an arbitrary subset to make it true. Actually, there isn't a single sentence you have written in the above post that can be supported with any kind of real data.
Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old.
And what about DOFUS? League of Legends? Wizard 101? Puzzle PIrates? Combat Arms? AVA? Maple Story? LOTRO? DDO? Club Penguin? Please, please prove me right by giving an excuse as to why each doesn't meet your personal criteria to be considered a successful and growing MMO.
how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition?
Just because you don't like the innovations of mainstream MMOs doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, just because a guy or group of guys list pie-in-the-sky ideas on their 'features' page doesn't mean there is anything to indicate they can make a solid game from it. Are you saying that Darkfall, Xsyon, Perpetuum and Mortal Online would have been more successful if someone threw more money at them? Would more money have changed the core gameplay of these games? Darkfall's skill system wouldn't have people currently running at rocks and swimming at cliffs if they had more money? Xsyon would have had a more thoughtout resource system and endgame?
The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
Again, if you want to ignore over 300+ titles and narrow 'the MMO industry' into a group of 2-3 dozen games then you are correct. Otherwise, your claim is simply baseless and, despite what you may believe in your heart, no amount of repeating it will suddenly make it true.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
He meant 'the genre is in a horrible place for him', it's just opinion, nothing more weight to it than that.
Not really, I don't think anyone could make a solid argument that the genre is doing well, considering all the clones and rehashes we've gotten, and all the unsuccesful companies. The one argument (which has already been debunked) people keep falling back on is "But there's so many more people playing!" And well, if that were true, then why do many modern MMOs have equal or less subs than old MMOs? The stagnation is hurting everyone.
...other than people who base their argument on facts and data.
Which I have done, yet people seem to ignore for whatever reason. So basically, the argument you come to again is, "There's tons of people playing MMOs!" Well, aint that fantastic. Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old. Why have new MMOs done so badly, and how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition? The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
Highlighted the important part. MMORPGs used to be all about subscriber retention and growing subscriber numbers. However these days this is an anamoly and most MMORPGs are instead showing drastic reduction of subs.
This indicates, to me, that MMORPGs are becoming like single player games and this is in fact what they are and for me a game labeled as an MMORPG but which in fact fundamentally is a single player game with the Massive Multiplayer just as an excuse to get subscription fees is a step back.
Also incorporating single player elements in an MMORPG is also a step back as MMORPGs were supposed to be the evolution of single/multiplayer games but now it is seems they are degenerating back into from where they came.
So yeah, I am sure SOE made money on DCU and Mythic with WAR and Cryptic with STO but the fact is that all these games are showing a decline in sub numbers and some heavily so. But are they successful MMORPGs just because they made money? I think not, that is not how I as a customer measure success.
I measure it based on the innovation, lasting appeal, virtual world persistance (and not just repeteable combat), depth and if they bring something significant and new to the genre and there has not been a single MMORPG in years that have provided that.
MMORPGs are become like "shake and bake" of endless casual, themepark clones with big single player elements rather than massively multiplayer. In effect they are becoming more and more like single player games and that for me is a huge step back.
If you're looking at pure numbers, MMORPG genre is doing great.
But from looking past that and from my own experience, it's looking rather sickly. Gameplay repetitiveness (they're practically all alike), restrictive character building / development, restrictive freedom of travel (namely you MUST go to either Zone A or B to develop. Anything else is out of the question), and one of the biggest hits in my view, less of a virtual world to interact with and be a part of.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Not really, I don't think anyone could make a solid argument that the genre is doing well, considering all the clones and rehashes we've gotten, and all the unsuccesful companies. The one argument (which has already been debunked) people keep falling back on is "But there's so many more people playing!" And well, if that were true, then why do many modern MMOs have equal or less subs than old MMOs?
They don't. They have subs equal to or more than the old MMO's.
Originally posted by Garvon3
Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old. Why have new MMOs done so badly, and how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition? The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
I don't think WoW is growing anymore, it's stable or even decreasing is what it looks like, nor do I think that there are other MMO's that aren't growing or stable in their numbers, Loktofeit gave enough examples, there are more if I'd take the time to look them up.
There's more MMO's over which MMO gamers are spread out, more choice and newer MMO's arriving faster on the scene.
Originally posted by Warmaker
If you're looking at pure numbers, MMORPG genre is doing great.
But from looking past that and from my own experience, it's looking rather sickly. Gameplay repetitiveness (they're practically all alike), restrictive character building / development, restrictive freedom of travel (namely you MUST go to either Zone A or B to develop. Anything else is out of the question), and one of the biggest hits in my view, less of a virtual world to interact with and be a part of.
I can agree that the MMO genre can use more diversification, not that there aren't enough MMO's that do things differently, Loktofeit named quite a few, but in the top segment of the top 10 MMO's which people only seem to focus on especially the complainers, there's a dominant focus on the themepark style of directed gameplay MMO.
If you dislike that kind of design and only want to play an AAA MMO and not give smaller MMO's a chance, then yes, your choice is limited.
On the bright side: I think that with the new crop of MMO's upcoming there's something for everyone, even for MMO gamers who passionately dislike the WoW themepark style of design.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
In what way?
WoW has more active subs than ever. More MMO titles are being released than ever before, and MMO budgets rival that of blockbuster movies.
"One great game and 10 crappy ones" applies to the entire gaming industry. Do you know how many failed FPS games there are? Thousands, I'm sure. Stop citing this. FPS games are doing great, and only about 5% of them are games that people actually play longer than a week.. The industry is fine, if not better than ever.
Most of you have just outgrown these games and are afraid to admit it. They no longer do it for you - failing to consider there is an entire generation playing these games for the first time and LOVING them.
People said the same exact this about the music industry when rap became popular. All the older people listening to classic rock stations swore music was ruined forever. Well, it wasn't.
The McDonald's arguement in posts above makes no sense either. Wether the content they provide is good or not, the industry is still booming whether you like it or not.
Soo many people seriously need to get a clue.
^ This
I love how we have veterans pulling up numbers, examples, supporting arguments, examples, and all these people trying to put a good face on the dark days of the genre say "Nuh uh, you've just outgrown games!" or "but there's so many more gamers now!" Way to debate guys, way to debate. If I didn't know better I'd say you were trolling, but you probably just don't understand.
Really? Try reading the thread. Beacause the "facts and data" on how MMO's are more successful are all there. The only reason I highlighted this is because he makes a point, the new generation gamers are actually enjoying themselves while the old generation of gamers seem to be tired of the same old same old. I can understand this but all I'm asking is for you to understand that there is a majority of people enjoying these games that have apparently flopped.
I will admit that some of them lack innovation. Although that is just an opinion based on what I've experienced (If I was new to the genre these games may seem innovative). However, the fact still remains that people are playing these games, enjoying themselves, and giving these companies more than enough revenue to maintain.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
The MMO industry is pulling less and less people in, and current and upcoming games try to pull their players from the existing pool of players instead of looking for new blood that would stay faithful to their game.
It's not a trend that can last.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Comments
There's no reason for the past to be gone. We just need some companies to start making original games again.
Way to ignore everything I said about your wall of text that I debunked.
Read what you said carefully. It is totally illogical. If it is original, it will not be from the past. I think TOR has it right. Innovate by putting single player thinking (i.e. story) into MMOs.
Wow. Way to throw in the monkey wrench of logic, Nariusseldon.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
In what way?
WoW has more active subs than ever. More MMO titles are being released than ever before, and MMO budgets rival that of blockbuster movies.
"One great game and 10 crappy ones" applies to the entire gaming industry. Do you know how many failed FPS games there are? Thousands, I'm sure. Stop citing this. FPS games are doing great, and only about 5% of them are games that people actually play longer than a week.. The industry is fine, if not better than ever.
Most of you have just outgrown these games and are afraid to admit it. They no longer do it for you - failing to consider there is an entire generation playing these games for the first time and LOVING them.
People said the same exact this about the music industry when rap became popular. All the older people listening to classic rock stations swore music was ruined forever. Well, it wasn't.
The McDonald's arguement in posts above makes no sense either. Wether the content they provide is good or not, the industry is still booming whether you like it or not.
Soo many people seriously need to get a clue.
Are you seriously trying to say that nothing has change and that we've merely outgrown games? Oh boy..read the rest of the thread, your quoted question has been answered a million times. I think you'd have to be braindead to pose a question like that.
He was being rhetorical, if you didn't see it.
It's obvious that he doesn't agree with any decline, and he's providing the answer himself as to why he doesn't believe it.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think the next big change in MMO's will be price structure. There will be more buy to play and F2P with microtransaction games doing well over the newxt two years I think. This will gradually errode players from the subscription model adopted by the bigger MMO's at the current time and eventually may well force a reduction in subscription fees with a distinct possibility that all new MMO's will have a Free to play option.
Companies that fail to forsee this are likely to fail to adapt quickly enough and as a result crash and burn. For the MMO producers this is probably the beginning of the end for the golden age of subscription fees.
What does this have to do with the WoW Vs Every new MMO out there ? quite a lot actually. with the erosion of players to an ever widening plethora of F2P options WoW's playerbase will get smaller & I think with less people hooked into the financial comittment of X hundred hours played and x$ spent on subscriptions it means more people will change MMO more often.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Yeah, tell that to Funcom. Or Fallen Earth. Or WAR. Or Vanguard. I'm sure they'd love some of this endless profits and success you're talking about. (And before you say those were all successes, then why are all four of those companies that made those MMOs either now nonexistant or 1/8th their original size?)
He meant 'the genre is in a horrible place for him', it's just opinion, nothing more weight to it than that.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Meh, double post, crappy editor
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
My point is that most MMO veterans on this forumn seem to think that "Vanguard, AoC, Darkfall, WAR, Aion, Global Agenda, Champions, DC, FreeRealms, STO" as you listed, have failed miserably. Well I'm sorry to inform you but the majority of them have not. This is your opinion. Most of these games still have a hefty playerbase and are continuing to make profit. Yes, their actually doing just fine.
I think the problem is that all of these post WoW MMO's have been lurking in the shadows of WoW's success but needless to say that's not neccesarily a bad thing. The boasted worldwide 12 million subs that WoW claimed was an amazing feat and it's no wonder so many games looked bad when compared to the success of WoW . Again, compared to the abnormal success of one game yes post WoW games may seem to have failed, but the fact remains that they made profit and pulled in a fair amount of subscriptions, therefor they did not fail.
Let me give you an example. It's like compairing a small town market to Wal-Mart, just because that small market doesn't rake in the billions that Wal-Mart does, doesn't make it unsuccessful. And even if you don't like the small-town markets food, it's still in business because of the people that do.
As far as why I think this year and every year after this will be better for MMO's than the past 7 is simply because WoW is dieing. For the past 7 years most gamers (may not include yourself) have been on a WoW buzz. It was the sensation and everybody loved it. However, I believe that WoW is nearing its end. Subscriptions are dropping and fans are finaly loosing their buzz. Hopefully, this will give new MMO's room to shine and give older MMO's that have lurked in the shadows more success. Of course this is just my opinion.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
I didn't say every MMO was a hit (3 MMO's you listed). But a link or maybe some evidence proving that even these games have not made a profit would be great.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
^ This
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Not really, I don't think anyone could make a solid argument that the genre is doing well, considering all the clones and rehashes we've gotten, and all the unsuccesful companies. The one argument (which has already been debunked) people keep falling back on is "But there's so many more people playing!" And well, if that were true, then why do many modern MMOs have equal or less subs than old MMOs? The stagnation is hurting everyone.
I love how we have veterans pulling up numbers, examples, supporting arguments, examples, and all these people trying to put a good face on the dark days of the genre say "Nuh uh, you've just outgrown games!" or "but there's so many more gamers now!" Way to debate guys, way to debate. If I didn't know better I'd say you were trolling, but you probably just don't understand.
...other than people who base their argument on facts and data.
Just sayin'.
http://current.com/participate/vc2/92368016_mmo-future-shock.htm
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Which I have done, yet people seem to ignore for whatever reason. So basically, the argument you come to again is, "There's tons of people playing MMOs!" Well, aint that fantastic. Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old. Why have new MMOs done so badly, and how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition? The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
The problem with your argument is that you have arbitrarily defined some personal subset of the MMO market inside of which there are only two large and growing MMOs. You also claim that new MMOs are doing badly which is also false unles you create an arbitrary subset to make it true. Actually, there isn't a single sentence you have written in the above post that can be supported with any kind of real data.
Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old.
And what about DOFUS? League of Legends? Wizard 101? Puzzle PIrates? Combat Arms? AVA? Maple Story? LOTRO? DDO? Club Penguin? Please, please prove me right by giving an excuse as to why each doesn't meet your personal criteria to be considered a successful and growing MMO.
how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition?
Just because you don't like the innovations of mainstream MMOs doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, just because a guy or group of guys list pie-in-the-sky ideas on their 'features' page doesn't mean there is anything to indicate they can make a solid game from it. Are you saying that Darkfall, Xsyon, Perpetuum and Mortal Online would have been more successful if someone threw more money at them? Would more money have changed the core gameplay of these games? Darkfall's skill system wouldn't have people currently running at rocks and swimming at cliffs if they had more money? Xsyon would have had a more thoughtout resource system and endgame?
The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
Again, if you want to ignore over 300+ titles and narrow 'the MMO industry' into a group of 2-3 dozen games then you are correct. Otherwise, your claim is simply baseless and, despite what you may believe in your heart, no amount of repeating it will suddenly make it true.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Highlighted the important part. MMORPGs used to be all about subscriber retention and growing subscriber numbers. However these days this is an anamoly and most MMORPGs are instead showing drastic reduction of subs.
This indicates, to me, that MMORPGs are becoming like single player games and this is in fact what they are and for me a game labeled as an MMORPG but which in fact fundamentally is a single player game with the Massive Multiplayer just as an excuse to get subscription fees is a step back.
Also incorporating single player elements in an MMORPG is also a step back as MMORPGs were supposed to be the evolution of single/multiplayer games but now it is seems they are degenerating back into from where they came.
So yeah, I am sure SOE made money on DCU and Mythic with WAR and Cryptic with STO but the fact is that all these games are showing a decline in sub numbers and some heavily so. But are they successful MMORPGs just because they made money? I think not, that is not how I as a customer measure success.
I measure it based on the innovation, lasting appeal, virtual world persistance (and not just repeteable combat), depth and if they bring something significant and new to the genre and there has not been a single MMORPG in years that have provided that.
MMORPGs are become like "shake and bake" of endless casual, themepark clones with big single player elements rather than massively multiplayer. In effect they are becoming more and more like single player games and that for me is a huge step back.
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If you're looking at pure numbers, MMORPG genre is doing great.
But from looking past that and from my own experience, it's looking rather sickly. Gameplay repetitiveness (they're practically all alike), restrictive character building / development, restrictive freedom of travel (namely you MUST go to either Zone A or B to develop. Anything else is out of the question), and one of the biggest hits in my view, less of a virtual world to interact with and be a part of.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
They don't. They have subs equal to or more than the old MMO's.
I don't think WoW is growing anymore, it's stable or even decreasing is what it looks like, nor do I think that there are other MMO's that aren't growing or stable in their numbers, Loktofeit gave enough examples, there are more if I'd take the time to look them up.
There's more MMO's over which MMO gamers are spread out, more choice and newer MMO's arriving faster on the scene.
I can agree that the MMO genre can use more diversification, not that there aren't enough MMO's that do things differently, Loktofeit named quite a few, but in the top segment of the top 10 MMO's which people only seem to focus on especially the complainers, there's a dominant focus on the themepark style of directed gameplay MMO.
If you dislike that kind of design and only want to play an AAA MMO and not give smaller MMO's a chance, then yes, your choice is limited.
On the bright side: I think that with the new crop of MMO's upcoming there's something for everyone, even for MMO gamers who passionately dislike the WoW themepark style of design.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Really? Try reading the thread. Beacause the "facts and data" on how MMO's are more successful are all there. The only reason I highlighted this is because he makes a point, the new generation gamers are actually enjoying themselves while the old generation of gamers seem to be tired of the same old same old. I can understand this but all I'm asking is for you to understand that there is a majority of people enjoying these games that have apparently flopped.
I will admit that some of them lack innovation. Although that is just an opinion based on what I've experienced (If I was new to the genre these games may seem innovative). However, the fact still remains that people are playing these games, enjoying themselves, and giving these companies more than enough revenue to maintain.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
The MMO industry is pulling less and less people in, and current and upcoming games try to pull their players from the existing pool of players instead of looking for new blood that would stay faithful to their game.
It's not a trend that can last.