As someone who's placed a huge bet on this personally, and spent the past 5+ years knee deep in the financial aspects of the business, I can promise you it is fine, and getting better.
But the only way to come out on the right side is to make good product, that is something that has NOT changed in the past 11 years.
Shrug. Such nonsense. Every game company, whether it's small indie company, a big corporation or something inbetween is making their games for profit, it isn't for charity that they're doing it, it's their job, their livelihood.
That doesn't mean that devs and designers can't be passionate about what they do.
That whole argument is camouflage, the heart of the matter is simply that sandbox fans or themepark critics are frustrated because there haven't been many MMO's released of the type that they liked, that's why the hating and bashing on popular MMO's that are of a subgenre that they dislike.
2nd generation MMOs (EQ2, WoW, etc) were all about money. How to make everquest, but cheaper, less costlier & with more market penatration.
That where it started & it made them billionaires. But understand the difference of pemium -VS- themepark.. These developers cheapen their cost enormously when they choose themepark design. (Even with complete failure, they can still make money).
Developer's go the cheap route, based on the hardware it cost to build the game world & the server farm structure... which is necessary to keep everything running. These Dev's don't create a world to play in (Like in ArcheAge), they just provided an "experience" of what it would be like to play in a real world.
I think we will start to see a clear division of premium MMORPGS -&- Online Action Arcade Adventure (ie: thrill ride.. lasting 6 month play time)
Action Arcade adventures that don't offer much depth (ie: rift, war, etc), but they will have strong social aspects, & focus on COMBAT ACTION.. which tends to be more previliant & dominating the landscape of these types. Rather than focusing on all aspects of an rpg mmo.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
DoAC reached 250k subs in its hayday. EQ2 reached about 325k. By the standards of today, those two were failures too.
Yes, EQ2 wasn't a very successful game, I thought everyone knew that. EQ1 reached 500k at its peak. By the standards of today, yesterday, any day, that's a great success, here's why.
Now listen up, because you WoW folks don't seem to understand this about old vs modern games.
Old games were made with dev teams of about 30-40 people, with a small budget. There were also fewer people in the MMO market. Hitting 250k subs is insanely successful considering the amount of investment put into the game.
Nowadays, when the marketing budget of modern MMOs is bigger than the entire budget of old MMOs, 350k subs is a collosal failure. WAR was made with about 100 devs and many millions of dollars. It's currently pulling about as many subs as DAoC had at its peak, if not less. That's a net loss. The result? Mythic has been downsized, merged with Bioware, and had all its secondary projects canceled. This story is not unheard of. More or less the same thing happened with Fallen Earth, Star Trek Online, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Tabula Rasa, the Aion US teams, almost every big name MMO to launch since WoW.
Old MMOs that were successful increased after launch.
The new standard is its fine to merge servers because devs have resigned themselves to the fact that their games can only go in a downward spiral after launch.
Way to quote-mine.
WAR made Mythic money. To say is was a "net loss" is really ridiculous. 800k in box sales, over 500k subs for the first year, tapering down to 150k over the next years - is not a net loss.
It could be a failure in terms of loss of playerbase. Financially, and from an industry perspective, absolutely not. Yes, Mythic made some bad choices, not purely hinged on the back of WAR. STO never got off the ground to begin with, that's the only failure you mentioned. Vanguard is not the cause of SOEs downfall, to reference it as the reason the company is in decline is pure BS. Fallen Earth, DDO, AoC are doing fine (and AoC had possibly the worst launch in history). Aion has over 3 million subs wordwide - the fact that you even try to mention that is ill-informed and ridiculous, and greatly discredits anything you try to say - since it's one of the all time most successful MMOs. I'm sure Rift is doing quite well too. Not to mention the tens of millions of F2PUS subcribers are not the bread and butter of the MMO industry. I take it you're American, and think the world revolves around you?
Anyway, the state of the industry is not a matter of debate. It's a fact that is in recorded numbers- it cannot be argued. If you want to argue about creativity and innovation in new games, that's one thing. To say the industry is failing, though, is not something that can be argued, hence I'm not wasting anymore time in this thread. Deny the numbers and the facts all you want - if you want to argue innovation I'm all for it. I'm not going to sit here and try to prove why facts are facts. You can all use google.
The OP says last year was a bad year for MMORPGs and this year looks good (and mentions games that are not yet released). Wow... are you new to this genre or what? we've been saying this for the past 7 years now.
The problem is not that last year was a bad year for MMORPG. The last 7-8 years were bad for the MMORPG genre. I've been getting disappointed every year about MMORPGs since 2004. I quit hoping at around year 2007 and I know this year will not be a good year for MMORPGs for me because frankly the genre was hijacked and it is not the genre I look forward to play. That's fine.
But what's interesting is that these games are rarely successful. So, maybe it's not about me maybe other too think these games are crap. What happened? why companies fail to retain subscribers? maybe because people are bored of Quest Driven MMORPGs? maybe people got sick and tired of the stupid predictible itemization? maybe because the people played WoW a little too much and need something fresh?
My only hope lies on two publishers. 38 Studios even though I'm skeptical because I have a feeling they'll jump the Themepark wagon and CCP's World of Darkness MMORPG. Everything else will fail. GW2 will fail, SWTOR will fail, TERA will fail. Been there, done that.. boring.
Shrug. Such nonsense. Every game company, whether it's small indie company, a big corporation or something inbetween is making their games for profit, it isn't for charity that they're doing it, it's their job, their livelihood.
That doesn't mean that devs and designers can't be passionate about what they do.
That whole argument is camouflage, the heart of the matter is simply that sandbox fans or themepark critics are frustrated because there haven't been many MMO's released of the type that they liked, that's why the hating and bashing on popular MMO's that are of a subgenre that they dislike.
2nd generation MMOs (EQ2, WoW, etc) were all about money. How to make everquest, but cheaper, less costlier & with more market penatration.
That where it started & it made them billionaires. But understand the difference of pemium -VS- themepark.. These developers cheapen their cost enormously when they choose themepark design. (Even with complete failure, they can still make money).
Figures and source links, or it isn't true.
I don't think that you'll find anyone here on these forums that will say that themepark MMO's are cheaper to make than sandbox MMO's, or that the current themepark MMO's like WoW, LotrO, Aion, AoC, WAR, Rift etc did not have the largest budgets in the MMO business.
In fact, themepark styled MMO's by their very nature and definition cost more resources to make than sandbox oriented MMO's, because in themepark MMO's dev provided content need to be ingame in far larger quantities than in sandbox MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Anyway, the state of the industry is not a matter of debate. It's a fact that is in recorded numbers- it cannot be argued. If you want to argue about creativity and innovation in new games, that's one thing. To say the industry is failing, though, is not something that can be argued, hence I'm not wasting anymore time in this thread. Deny the numbers and the facts all you want - if you want to argue innovation I'm all for it. I'm not going to sit here and try to prove why facts are facts. You can all use google.
Well, the 2010 report has been posted. If people want to ignore the numbers, do so at their peril. Luckily deverlopers are less stubborn and they usually will listen to market research.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If we call lawn mowers cars, we can say the automobile industry is growing.
Brilliant work Fikus, I thank you kindly.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Spotted: three sandbox fans circle rubbing and patting eachother's backs and complimenting eachother for the smart comments made, even if it holds little sense or truth in it.
Facts and figures beat 'the sky is falling, the planet is doomed' tealeaves and star gazing any time
Like for example the ones Nariusseldon gathered:
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Gosh .. can people at least CHECK THE FACTS first before opening their mouth?
Last time WOW releases their numbers, it has roughly 4-5M in Europe+US. So WOW has less than 10% of the US MMO players.
Total US MMO revenue: $2.28B. If WOW has 3M users in the US. The yearly revenue is $15x12x3M = $540M. Even if you add 3M copies of Catalysm, that is roughly 660M ... less than 1/3 of the total US MMO revenue.
If you don't think a $2.28B market with 47.5M customers is "fine". No market is "fine".
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Spotted: three sandbox fans circle rubbing and patting eachother's backs and complimenting eachother for the smart comments made, even if it holds little sense or truth in it.
Facts and figures beat 'the sky is falling, the planet is doomed' tealeaves and star gazing any time
Like for example the ones Nariusseldon gathered:
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Gosh .. can people at least CHECK THE FACTS first before opening their mouth?
Last time WOW releases their numbers, it has roughly 4-5M in Europe+US. So WOW has less than 10% of the US MMO players.
Total US MMO revenue: $2.28B. If WOW has 3M users in the US. The yearly revenue is $15x12x3M = $540M. Even if you add 3M copies of Catalysm, that is roughly 660M ... less than 1/3 of the total US MMO revenue.
If you don't think a $2.28B market with 47.5M customers is "fine". No market is "fine".
BTW, 74% of the players ONLY play F2P MMOs.
^ This +1
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
it all boils down to someing different for me. if Wow is the design standard of all MMO games then we are fucked. I'm not talking about "sandbox" games but it is all coming to a head. we have run out of ideas, You see it's not only in games, but TV movies. The only game I see trying to change how we play MMOs seems to be GW2.
And even they have to conform to some game mechanic we have all seen before. Truth is we are never going to get a AAA MMO that has anything new and innovative. I have stopped looking and have conformed to what is available now.
As long as Wow exist we are fucked. if wow dies slowly we are still fucked because all the wow players are use to getting what they want without an once of work to get it, they will run to some new MMO forums and whine the old Wow mechanics right back in the new game.
So basicly we are fucked unless some genuis and his friends create an MMO that is so strange and alien to the common Wow game design prototype, it will stun us old bastards out of our game coma.
I don't see it imrpoving sorry if thats "negative" it's just what it is..
Spotted: three sandbox fans circle rubbing and patting eachother's backs and complimenting eachother for the smart comments made, even if it holds little sense or truth in it.
Facts and figures beat 'the sky is falling, the planet is doomed' tealeaves and star gazing any time
Like for example the ones Nariusseldon gathered:
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Gosh .. can people at least CHECK THE FACTS first before opening their mouth?
Last time WOW releases their numbers, it has roughly 4-5M in Europe+US. So WOW has less than 10% of the US MMO players.
Total US MMO revenue: $2.28B. If WOW has 3M users in the US. The yearly revenue is $15x12x3M = $540M. Even if you add 3M copies of Catalysm, that is roughly 660M ... less than 1/3 of the total US MMO revenue.
If you don't think a $2.28B market with 47.5M customers is "fine". No market is "fine".
BTW, 74% of the players ONLY play F2P MMOs.
^ This +1
We've been spotted!! Run!!!
No one is arguing the so called facts. Reposting them isnt a counter arguement that the definition of mmo has been expanded which could explain the 'growth' of the industry.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
it all boils down to someing different for me. if Wow is the design standard of all MMO games then we are fucked. I'm not talking about "sandbox" games but it is all coming to a head. we have run out of ideas, You see it's not only in games, but TV movies. The only game I see trying to change how we play MMOs seems to be GW2.
And even they have to conform to some game mechanic we have all seen before. Truth is we are never going to get a AAA MMO that has anything new and innovative. I have stopped looking and have conformed to what is available now.
As long as Wow exist we are fucked. if wow dies slowly we are still fucked because all the wow players are use to getting what they want without an once of work to get it, they will run to some new MMO forums and whine the old Wow mechanics right back in the new game.
So basicly we are fucked unless some genuis and his friends create an MMO that is so strange and alien to the common Wow game design prototype, it will stun us old bastards out of our game coma.
I don't see it imrpoving sorry if thats "negative" it's just what it is..
No. YOU are "fucked". Not me, not the 47.5M players.
If you don't like it, go do something else. It is not like this world is devoid of entertainment. I am sure the 47.5M strong market is not going to miss a few people ranting on internet forums.
it all boils down to someing different for me. if Wow is the design standard of all MMO games then we are fucked. I'm not talking about "sandbox" games but it is all coming to a head. we have run out of ideas, You see it's not only in games, but TV movies. The only game I see trying to change how we play MMOs seems to be GW2.
As long as Wow exist we are fucked. if wow dies slowly we are still fucked because all the wow players are use to getting what they want without an once of work to get it, they will run to some new MMO forums and whine the old Wow mechanics right back in the new game.
So basicly we are fucked unless some genuis and his friends create an MMO that is so strange and alien to the common Wow game design prototype, it will stun us old bastards out of our game coma.
I don't see it imrpoving sorry if thats "negative" it's just what it is..
With "we are fucked" I assume you mean people who don't enjoy the current MMO's, right?
I don't see why people regard the MMO genre differently than other game genres, because let's face it, there hasn't been much innovation and sparkling ideas in other game genres as well, most top games have the same feel and mechanics that have been seen before. Yet you don't see a lot of gamers of those games complain about this glaring lack of rigorous innovation or revolutionary mechanics in most of the top games in those genres.
I disagree btw with no new ideas or improved features in the upcoming MMO's, I think that GW2, TSW, ArcheAge and Firefall each in their own way bring new or different things to the table, for those who've grown fed up with themepark MMO's. Unless that allergy or aversion towards any themepark associated gameplay feature has become chronic.
Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
We've been spotted!! Run!!!
lol
No one is arguing the so called facts. Reposting them isnt a counter arguement that the definition of mmo has been expanded which could explain the 'growth' of the industry.
Surveys say that readers often only pay attention to the first and the last few posts of a thread, hence I thought that reposting could do no harm, in case that post was missed.
As for the definition, I've seen some people claim that WoW or all themepark MMO's aren't MMORPG's, so yeah, if people only find oldschool MMO's or sandbox oriented MMO's to be real MMO games, excluding MMOFPS, F2P MMO's and all other types of MMO's, then I certainly can understand why some people are saying that the MMO genre is withering. To them, that's the case if the only MMO's that interest them and gives them enjoyment are sandbox/oldschool ones.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
No one is arguing the so called facts. Reposting them isnt a counter arguement that the definition of mmo has been expanded which could explain the 'growth' of the industry.
Surveys say that readers often only pay attention to the first and the last few posts of a thread, hence I thought that reposting could do no harm, in case that post was missed.
As for the definition, I've seen some people claim that WoW or all themepark MMO's aren't MMORPG's, so yeah, if people only find oldschool MMO's or sandbox oriented MMO's to be real MMO games, excluding MMOFPS, F2P MMO's and all other types of MMO's, then I certainly can understand why some people are saying that the MMO genre is withering. To them, that's the case if the only MMO's that interest them and gives them enjoyment are sandbox/oldschool ones.
Could be. Still, that's not a counter arguement. Why dont you tell me the definition of mmo used by the report? That would be a counter arguement.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Could be. Still, that's not a counter arguement. Why dont you tell me the definition of mmo used by the report? That would be a counter arguement.
? Where's your counter argument? The only thing I've seen so far from 'the MMO genre is dying' advocates is gut feeling and smart ass remarks, little research or facts and figures.
As for the survey: the way how they split the figures into P2P, F2P, browser and client driven, seems to me that they look at all kinds of games that could be considered MMO's, not only sandbox/oldschool/themepark ones. For those however who're only interested in the client based P2P MMO's, those figures are shown as well.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Could be. Still, that's not a counter arguement. Why dont you tell me the definition of mmo used by the report? That would be a counter arguement.
? Where's your counter argument? The only thing I've seen so far from 'the MMO genre is dying' advocates is gut feeling and smart ass remarks, little research or facts and figures.
As for the survey: the way how they split the figures into P2P, F2P, browser and client driven, seems to me that they look at all kinds of games that could be considered MMO's, not only sandbox/oldschool/themepark ones. For those however who're only interested in the client based P2P MMO's, those figures are shown as well.
.
You called me out dude. I figured you would provide a counter point of some kind. So nevermind i guess.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Could be. Still, that's not a counter arguement. Why dont you tell me the definition of mmo used by the report? That would be a counter arguement.
? Where's your counter argument? The only thing I've seen so far from 'the MMO genre is dying' advocates is gut feeling and smart ass remarks, little research or facts and figures.
As for the survey: the way how they split the figures into P2P, F2P, browser and client driven, seems to me that they look at all kinds of games that could be considered MMO's, not only sandbox/oldschool/themepark ones. For those however who're only interested in the client based P2P MMO's, those figures are shown as well.
You called me out dude. I figured you would provide a counter point of some kind. So nevermind i guess.
This was fun a few posts back, now it's just boring. I pointed you towards solid facts and figures someone else provided, I even provided a better argument by pointing how their figures make a clear distinction between P2P, F2P, browser and client MMO's. If however all you're interested in is throwing out oneliners because you have nothing better, then feel free to keep yourself blinded and stuck in a doomsday's prophecy all by your own.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Could be. Still, that's not a counter arguement. Why dont you tell me the definition of mmo used by the report? That would be a counter arguement.
? Where's your counter argument? The only thing I've seen so far from 'the MMO genre is dying' advocates is gut feeling and smart ass remarks, little research or facts and figures.
As for the survey: the way how they split the figures into P2P, F2P, browser and client driven, seems to me that they look at all kinds of games that could be considered MMO's, not only sandbox/oldschool/themepark ones. For those however who're only interested in the client based P2P MMO's, those figures are shown as well.
You called me out dude. I figured you would provide a counter point of some kind. So nevermind i guess.
This was fun a few posts back, now it's just boring. I pointed you towards solid facts and figures someone else provided, I even provided a better argument by pointing how their figures make a clear distinction between P2P, F2P, browser and client MMO's. If however all you're interested in is throwing out oneliners because you have nothing better, then feel free to keep yourself blinded and stuck in a doomsday's prophecy all by your own.
Cya around
It's boring because Im asking you what games are considered MMO's and you tell me there is F2P, P2P, browser and client MMOs.
Are facebook games MMO's?
Is Black Ops an MMO?
Is online poker an MMO?
Does your survey answer these kind of questions? If not then how does posting it point me anywhere or offer a better argument? You have offered no argument either.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
It's boring because Im asking you what games are considered MMO's and you tell me there is F2P, P2P, browser and client MMOs.
Are facebook games MMO's?
Is Black Ops an MMO?
Is online poker an MMO?
Does your survey answer these kind of questions? If not then how does posting it point me anywhere or offer a better argument? You have offered no argument either.
Shrug. Don't switch roles, you're the one who has offered not a single shred of proof yet demands that others deliver the proof up to the smallest details. At least Sukiyaki had some real data and figures to provide than some empty, unfounded commenting which was only backed up by some sandbox-love colored gut feeling
It should be clear that the client based P2P MMO section they're talking about on that site are all the P2P MMO's we know, that Black Ops or online poker or other regular online games aren't MMO's, and that the whole list of hundreds of released MMORPG's that can be found in MMO lists like on this site are automatically included.
In any case, I'm done with this debate, with someone who's complaining that others give insufficient, not-detailed enough proof of their arguments while he himself delivers zero proof to his own flimsy argument.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It's boring because Im asking you what games are considered MMO's and you tell me there is F2P, P2P, browser and client MMOs.
Are facebook games MMO's?
Is Black Ops an MMO?
Is online poker an MMO?
Does your survey answer these kind of questions? If not then how does posting it point me anywhere or offer a better argument? You have offered no argument either.
Shrug. Don't switch roles, you're the one who has offered not a single shred of proof yet demands that others deliver the proof up to the smallest details. At least Sukiyaki had some real data and figures to provide than some empty, unfounded commenting which was only backed up by some sandbox-love colored gut feeling
It should be clear that the client based P2P MMO section they're talking about on that site are all the P2P MMO's we know, that Black Ops or online poker or other regular online games aren't MMO's, and that the whole list of hundreds of released MMORPG's that can be found in MMO lists like on this site are automatically included.
In any case, I'm done with this debate, with someone who's complaining that others give insufficient, not-detailed enough proof of their arguments while he himself delivers zero proof to his own flimsy argument.
WTH? You said i was wrong. You used the survey to show Im wrong. I asked what games the survey considers a MMO because that would be required knowledge in order to show that Im wrong. You said you dont know. Thats as far as we gotten. Oh and your opinion of what you think my motives are.
i didnt claim anyone was wrong. I didnt claim I was right. I didnt call anyone out. If i had done that, I would have a counter point at least. What do you want me to prove exactly?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Could be. Still, that's not a counter arguement. Why dont you tell me the definition of mmo used by the report? That would be a counter arguement.
? Where's your counter argument? The only thing I've seen so far from 'the MMO genre is dying' advocates is gut feeling and smart ass remarks, little research or facts and figures.
As for the survey: the way how they split the figures into P2P, F2P, browser and client driven, seems to me that they look at all kinds of games that could be considered MMO's, not only sandbox/oldschool/themepark ones. For those however who're only interested in the client based P2P MMO's, those figures are shown as well.
You called me out dude. I figured you would provide a counter point of some kind. So nevermind i guess.
This was fun a few posts back, now it's just boring. I pointed you towards solid facts and figures someone else provided, I even provided a better argument by pointing how their figures make a clear distinction between P2P, F2P, browser and client MMO's. If however all you're interested in is throwing out oneliners because you have nothing better, then feel free to keep yourself blinded and stuck in a doomsday's prophecy all by your own.
Cya around
It's boring because Im asking you what games are considered MMO's and you tell me there is F2P, P2P, browser and client MMOs.
Are facebook games MMO's?
Is Black Ops an MMO?
Is online poker an MMO?
Does your survey answer these kind of questions? If not then how does posting it point me anywhere or offer a better argument? You have offered no argument either.
It is CLEAR that the survey was done by a market firm called newzoo.com. Why don't you go to their website and read up on their methodology.
Just to give you a hint, they separate out Gaming on Social Network and MMOs. So the answer to your FIRST question is "no". You can even purchase a detailed report and see all the data.
Could be. Still, that's not a counter arguement. Why dont you tell me the definition of mmo used by the report? That would be a counter arguement.
? Where's your counter argument? The only thing I've seen so far from 'the MMO genre is dying' advocates is gut feeling and smart ass remarks, little research or facts and figures.
As for the survey: the way how they split the figures into P2P, F2P, browser and client driven, seems to me that they look at all kinds of games that could be considered MMO's, not only sandbox/oldschool/themepark ones. For those however who're only interested in the client based P2P MMO's, those figures are shown as well.
You called me out dude. I figured you would provide a counter point of some kind. So nevermind i guess.
This was fun a few posts back, now it's just boring. I pointed you towards solid facts and figures someone else provided, I even provided a better argument by pointing how their figures make a clear distinction between P2P, F2P, browser and client MMO's. If however all you're interested in is throwing out oneliners because you have nothing better, then feel free to keep yourself blinded and stuck in a doomsday's prophecy all by your own.
Cya around
It's boring because Im asking you what games are considered MMO's and you tell me there is F2P, P2P, browser and client MMOs.
Are facebook games MMO's?
Is Black Ops an MMO?
Is online poker an MMO?
Does your survey answer these kind of questions? If not then how does posting it point me anywhere or offer a better argument? You have offered no argument either.
It is CLEAR that the survey was done by a market firm called newzoo.com. Why don't you go to their website and read up on their methodology.
Just to give you a hint, they separate out Gaming on Social Network and MMOs. So the answer to your FIRST question is "no". You can even purchase a detailed report and see all the data.
Thank you very much.
Edit: It appears they survey 10ooo or so people and use math to determine the results based on answers from the survey.
2009 mmo revenue was 2.12 bil. 2010 mmo revenue was 2.275 bil and has 500k more people playing than 2009.
Growth appeared to come from mmo's geared towards children. Browser based mmo's seem to be healthy, and attracted the most new investment. Not much change otherwise.
So i'll rephrase my comment from earlier. If we call big wheels cars, we can say the automobile industry is growing. Better?
Great news for us huh?.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Comments
As someone who's placed a huge bet on this personally, and spent the past 5+ years knee deep in the financial aspects of the business, I can promise you it is fine, and getting better.
But the only way to come out on the right side is to make good product, that is something that has NOT changed in the past 11 years.
Curt Schilling
Chairman, Founder, 38 Studios
Geek
2nd generation MMOs (EQ2, WoW, etc) were all about money. How to make everquest, but cheaper, less costlier & with more market penatration.
That where it started & it made them billionaires. But understand the difference of pemium -VS- themepark.. These developers cheapen their cost enormously when they choose themepark design. (Even with complete failure, they can still make money).
Developer's go the cheap route, based on the hardware it cost to build the game world & the server farm structure... which is necessary to keep everything running. These Dev's don't create a world to play in (Like in ArcheAge), they just provided an "experience" of what it would be like to play in a real world.
It comes down to server technology...
I think we will start to see a clear division of premium MMORPGS -&- Online Action Arcade Adventure (ie: thrill ride.. lasting 6 month play time)
Action Arcade adventures that don't offer much depth (ie: rift, war, etc), but they will have strong social aspects, & focus on COMBAT ACTION.. which tends to be more previliant & dominating the landscape of these types. Rather than focusing on all aspects of an rpg mmo.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Way to quote-mine.
WAR made Mythic money. To say is was a "net loss" is really ridiculous. 800k in box sales, over 500k subs for the first year, tapering down to 150k over the next years - is not a net loss.
It could be a failure in terms of loss of playerbase. Financially, and from an industry perspective, absolutely not. Yes, Mythic made some bad choices, not purely hinged on the back of WAR. STO never got off the ground to begin with, that's the only failure you mentioned. Vanguard is not the cause of SOEs downfall, to reference it as the reason the company is in decline is pure BS. Fallen Earth, DDO, AoC are doing fine (and AoC had possibly the worst launch in history). Aion has over 3 million subs wordwide - the fact that you even try to mention that is ill-informed and ridiculous, and greatly discredits anything you try to say - since it's one of the all time most successful MMOs. I'm sure Rift is doing quite well too. Not to mention the tens of millions of F2PUS subcribers are not the bread and butter of the MMO industry. I take it you're American, and think the world revolves around you?
Anyway, the state of the industry is not a matter of debate. It's a fact that is in recorded numbers- it cannot be argued. If you want to argue about creativity and innovation in new games, that's one thing. To say the industry is failing, though, is not something that can be argued, hence I'm not wasting anymore time in this thread. Deny the numbers and the facts all you want - if you want to argue innovation I'm all for it. I'm not going to sit here and try to prove why facts are facts. You can all use google.
The OP says last year was a bad year for MMORPGs and this year looks good (and mentions games that are not yet released). Wow... are you new to this genre or what? we've been saying this for the past 7 years now.
The problem is not that last year was a bad year for MMORPG. The last 7-8 years were bad for the MMORPG genre. I've been getting disappointed every year about MMORPGs since 2004. I quit hoping at around year 2007 and I know this year will not be a good year for MMORPGs for me because frankly the genre was hijacked and it is not the genre I look forward to play. That's fine.
But what's interesting is that these games are rarely successful. So, maybe it's not about me maybe other too think these games are crap. What happened? why companies fail to retain subscribers? maybe because people are bored of Quest Driven MMORPGs? maybe people got sick and tired of the stupid predictible itemization? maybe because the people played WoW a little too much and need something fresh?
My only hope lies on two publishers. 38 Studios even though I'm skeptical because I have a feeling they'll jump the Themepark wagon and CCP's World of Darkness MMORPG. Everything else will fail. GW2 will fail, SWTOR will fail, TERA will fail. Been there, done that.. boring.
Figures and source links, or it isn't true.
I don't think that you'll find anyone here on these forums that will say that themepark MMO's are cheaper to make than sandbox MMO's, or that the current themepark MMO's like WoW, LotrO, Aion, AoC, WAR, Rift etc did not have the largest budgets in the MMO business.
In fact, themepark styled MMO's by their very nature and definition cost more resources to make than sandbox oriented MMO's, because in themepark MMO's dev provided content need to be ingame in far larger quantities than in sandbox MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well, the 2010 report has been posted. If people want to ignore the numbers, do so at their peril. Luckily deverlopers are less stubborn and they usually will listen to market research.
If we call lawn mowers cars, we can say the automobile industry is growing.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Genius.... I salute you.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Brilliant work Fikus, I thank you kindly.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Spotted: three sandbox fans circle rubbing and patting eachother's backs and complimenting eachother for the smart comments made, even if it holds little sense or truth in it.
Facts and figures beat 'the sky is falling, the planet is doomed' tealeaves and star gazing any time
Like for example the ones Nariusseldon gathered:
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
^ This +1
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
it all boils down to someing different for me. if Wow is the design standard of all MMO games then we are fucked. I'm not talking about "sandbox" games but it is all coming to a head. we have run out of ideas, You see it's not only in games, but TV movies. The only game I see trying to change how we play MMOs seems to be GW2.
And even they have to conform to some game mechanic we have all seen before. Truth is we are never going to get a AAA MMO that has anything new and innovative. I have stopped looking and have conformed to what is available now.
As long as Wow exist we are fucked. if wow dies slowly we are still fucked because all the wow players are use to getting what they want without an once of work to get it, they will run to some new MMO forums and whine the old Wow mechanics right back in the new game.
So basicly we are fucked unless some genuis and his friends create an MMO that is so strange and alien to the common Wow game design prototype, it will stun us old bastards out of our game coma.
I don't see it imrpoving sorry if thats "negative" it's just what it is..
We've been spotted!! Run!!!
No one is arguing the so called facts. Reposting them isnt a counter arguement that the definition of mmo has been expanded which could explain the 'growth' of the industry.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
No. YOU are "fucked". Not me, not the 47.5M players.
If you don't like it, go do something else. It is not like this world is devoid of entertainment. I am sure the 47.5M strong market is not going to miss a few people ranting on internet forums.
With "we are fucked" I assume you mean people who don't enjoy the current MMO's, right?
I don't see why people regard the MMO genre differently than other game genres, because let's face it, there hasn't been much innovation and sparkling ideas in other game genres as well, most top games have the same feel and mechanics that have been seen before. Yet you don't see a lot of gamers of those games complain about this glaring lack of rigorous innovation or revolutionary mechanics in most of the top games in those genres.
I disagree btw with no new ideas or improved features in the upcoming MMO's, I think that GW2, TSW, ArcheAge and Firefall each in their own way bring new or different things to the table, for those who've grown fed up with themepark MMO's. Unless that allergy or aversion towards any themepark associated gameplay feature has become chronic.
Surveys say that readers often only pay attention to the first and the last few posts of a thread, hence I thought that reposting could do no harm, in case that post was missed.
As for the definition, I've seen some people claim that WoW or all themepark MMO's aren't MMORPG's, so yeah, if people only find oldschool MMO's or sandbox oriented MMO's to be real MMO games, excluding MMOFPS, F2P MMO's and all other types of MMO's, then I certainly can understand why some people are saying that the MMO genre is withering. To them, that's the case if the only MMO's that interest them and gives them enjoyment are sandbox/oldschool ones.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Could be. Still, that's not a counter arguement. Why dont you tell me the definition of mmo used by the report? That would be a counter arguement.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
? Where's your counter argument? The only thing I've seen so far from 'the MMO genre is dying' advocates is gut feeling and smart ass remarks, little research or facts and figures.
As for the survey: the way how they split the figures into P2P, F2P, browser and client driven, seems to me that they look at all kinds of games that could be considered MMO's, not only sandbox/oldschool/themepark ones. For those however who're only interested in the client based P2P MMO's, those figures are shown as well.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You called me out dude. I figured you would provide a counter point of some kind. So nevermind i guess.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I think greed has hit the industry hard, just imo
This was fun a few posts back, now it's just boring. I pointed you towards solid facts and figures someone else provided, I even provided a better argument by pointing how their figures make a clear distinction between P2P, F2P, browser and client MMO's. If however all you're interested in is throwing out oneliners because you have nothing better, then feel free to keep yourself blinded and stuck in a doomsday's prophecy all by your own.
Cya around
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It's boring because Im asking you what games are considered MMO's and you tell me there is F2P, P2P, browser and client MMOs.
Are facebook games MMO's?
Is Black Ops an MMO?
Is online poker an MMO?
Does your survey answer these kind of questions? If not then how does posting it point me anywhere or offer a better argument? You have offered no argument either.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Shrug. Don't switch roles, you're the one who has offered not a single shred of proof yet demands that others deliver the proof up to the smallest details. At least Sukiyaki had some real data and figures to provide than some empty, unfounded commenting which was only backed up by some sandbox-love colored gut feeling
It should be clear that the client based P2P MMO section they're talking about on that site are all the P2P MMO's we know, that Black Ops or online poker or other regular online games aren't MMO's, and that the whole list of hundreds of released MMORPG's that can be found in MMO lists like on this site are automatically included.
In any case, I'm done with this debate, with someone who's complaining that others give insufficient, not-detailed enough proof of their arguments while he himself delivers zero proof to his own flimsy argument.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
WTH? You said i was wrong. You used the survey to show Im wrong. I asked what games the survey considers a MMO because that would be required knowledge in order to show that Im wrong. You said you dont know. Thats as far as we gotten. Oh and your opinion of what you think my motives are.
i didnt claim anyone was wrong. I didnt claim I was right. I didnt call anyone out. If i had done that, I would have a counter point at least. What do you want me to prove exactly?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
It is CLEAR that the survey was done by a market firm called newzoo.com. Why don't you go to their website and read up on their methodology.
Just to give you a hint, they separate out Gaming on Social Network and MMOs. So the answer to your FIRST question is "no". You can even purchase a detailed report and see all the data.
Thank you very much.
Edit: It appears they survey 10ooo or so people and use math to determine the results based on answers from the survey.
2009 mmo revenue was 2.12 bil. 2010 mmo revenue was 2.275 bil and has 500k more people playing than 2009.
Growth appeared to come from mmo's geared towards children. Browser based mmo's seem to be healthy, and attracted the most new investment. Not much change otherwise.
So i'll rephrase my comment from earlier. If we call big wheels cars, we can say the automobile industry is growing. Better?
Great news for us huh?.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.