It is funny how cheaters talk about the games they cheat in as if they were some kind of basic human need they were forced to fullfill and partecipate in even at the cost of cheating and potentially screwing a whole community out of it.
Games are a luxury, not your birthright.
If the game is too boring for you, if you don´t have the time to play the game, if the game is too hard for you, if you don´t agree on how the game is managed or the direction the game is taking...
Like....don´t play the game and find one that suits your playstyle?
How many of you have no single piece of music that did not technically legally come to your harddisc? How many can claim to have zero software that didn't get there despite some... rules? How many of you have never peeked into the neighbours book at a school test?
sorry, but all i see is people making up excuses for them cheating in games. there is NO logical reason to do it. and i wont do it. never will. nev er did.
you guys are most likely among those who felt sorry for gutenberg too. you guys just make me sick.
this aint about some mp3 or anthing else, this is about games which are EXPLICITELY designed to give players´a way to challange others, and not their bots or scripts. if you need them, go back to school and cheat your notes.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
The only thing worse than player cheaters are developer cheaters (such as CCP). Things get especially bad if there is a single server population and therefore limited prizes or opportunities. If some developer is giving favors to his friends, those are advantages and resources being denied to the rest of the server population. Unfair gains dilute the economy and demean the whole idea of "sandbox" games.
LOL, sure bring up a 4+ year old incident by a single Dev that had negligible effect on anyone. Not really relevant but whatever.
The fact that a CCP developer was caught cheating is enough and is no excuse to justify or ignore the issue of developer cheating. Only a fanboy would try to claim that. It is also not irrelevant as the topic is about cheating in general and nowhere was it strictly limited to only player cheating.
The fact it happened with a developer on a single server game is not negligible effect and should never be forgotten as much as fanboys might wish it to be. I know real people, real players, that were affected so don't just blithely claim it affected nobody. Proven cheating is proven cheating, period no matter how long ago it was. When someone gets an unfair advantage on a server, it affects the entire economy, particularly if as in that particular case, it was a limited item that was unfairly given out. The dev giving it to his buddies meant all the other players on the server were denied the opportunity to gain it through fair means, and it means that enemies of that particular cheating group were placed at an unfair disadvantage. A developer cheating is even worse than player cheating because they are in possession of insider information and powers to eliminate or alter the game world or eliminate evidence from being easily found by players. They are supposed to be the referees and arbiters to stop cheating, not the ones trying to get in on the corruption.
Developer cheating should not just be dismissed as some never to be seen again freak event. They are still people and people cheat when they see enough incentive for personal gain and being able to get away with it. Put people in positions of power, and if they develop biases or ties to player factions, expect the temptation of corruption and cheating to arise (or turning a blind eye to cheating by their ingame friends). Things get even worse if the potential exists to readily convert game currency or items to real world currency. "Who watches the watchdogs?" That is why the best solution is to remove the incentive for developers to cheat in the first place. Catching them after the fact is already too late as the damage to a game's reputation is already done.
I was implying that anyone could become a cheater and cross that line because the truth is people read into things and make assumptions about a vast cornucopia of subject matter concerning online gaming, just as this article has proven, WMike assumed i was trying to justify why people do it when in fact it has nothing to do with why, but more so with who and when. It's. Easy to sit here and say, cheat? Me? Hell no! I'm. Playing devils advocate because there are innumerable factors to a mmo, and no one person would ever truly know what one person in a sea of thousands is doing or thinking, that would be presumptuous and overly judgemental to the point of being trollish. There is a great deal of grey area I know nothing about, and I'm sure very few others do too, to me cheaters are like pop up ads, you either figure out how to play with out being affected by them or you just get used to them being there
Ahhh... no back-pedaling please.
You made an absolute statement.. and a generalization at that:
You said:
"The truth is those people you call cheaters were just like you at one time, saying the exact same things against cheating being said now, only they probably found something in game one day that changed them and how they play."
There is nothing ambiguous in that statement, or the rest of your post. The part in orange is particularly assertive as you are characterizing it as "the truth", which says nothing about "with who and when" as you are now spinning it. Further, "with who" wouldn't matter. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat, no matter who's doing it, why they're doing it, when they're doing it or whom they're doing it with.
You're really reaching to take the onus off the cheater... that much is clear. Sadly, that dog won't hunt. It is what it is.
You made a very specific assertion there, that people who cheat were once "anti-cheat" but that something in the game turned them into cheaters. There's nothing about "with who" they became cheaters. "When they did" would be the same as "why they did" in this case, which in your argument would be "when something in the game made them become a cheater". It's just as bogus.
Again, it's apologist nonsense. You're taking responsibility off the cheater, and putting it on the game. That is a classic sob story used by cheaters all the time to defend their behavior; "Oh well I wouldn't have to cheat if the game didn't force me to".
The game doesn't force people to cheat. The game doesn't even force them to play it. They choose to play. They choose to cheat. Period. End of discussion.
Honestly... it's topics like this that really irk me. Cheating is lame enough as it is. To see people trying to defend it, make excuses for it, or - as in your case, Drak - attempting to spin or twist it around - It's just all the more annoying.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
There are always grey areas, whether it be irl or game makes no difference. If you see everything in black and white then i that would mean you are inflexible in your playstyle, how do you ever manage to deal with the chaos and fluidity of a online game? Well i hope we never meet in pvp then, for your sake more then mine lol
Now you're resorting to a strawman argument.
We aren't talking about "managing with chaos and fluidity of an online game".
We're talking about a very specific activity: cheating. And when it comes to cheating, yes... it is a black-and-white issue. You are either cheating or you aren't, and it is always wrong.
There is no gray area.
You really are not helping your case. At all.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It ultimately is thier fault as they rush production schedules, half arse betas, bad testing grp, poor control, bad coding, and security measures, who do you think is at fault, santa claus? I think your a mad gamer, and you just want to blame someone for something, jeez man its a game, not life
And again with the strawmen and, in your last statement, an ad hominem.
Those things you mention are all reasons to choose not to play the game if you find them undesirable or intolerable. They are not justifications for cheating.
Drak.. Seriously... You are trying to defend the indefensible here. Spinning, twisting and distorting it doesn't change what it is. It doesn't make it right or justified... ever... under any circumstances.
People choose to cheat. They are not, ever, forced to.
Games do not "make people cheat". People choose to cheat.
A game having elements that a player disagrees with or finds undesirable is not a justification to cheat. It's a reason to consider whether they want to continue playing that game or not.
There is no good justification or rationalization that makes it any less lame than it is.
Period.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I think there is a huge difference between cheating and exploiting. Cheating to me implies that you used some type of special coding that goes around how the game was programmed to be played. Like bots, whether they be claiming bot tools, xp bots, farm bots, whatever that's cheating to me.
On the other hand exploits are a little different. To me exploits are something someone found to play the game thats easier. I remember one exploit in L2 way way back where you could fire your arrows through a fence and mobs couldn't attack you. That wasn't maliciously made like a bot, originally someone just happend to pass by and figure this out and then shared with some friends before it was fixed. I think there is a huge difference between the two.
yeh there was an exploit in Tabula Rasa early on that after getting killed you could use the /stuck command at the respawn point to instantly return to the spot where you died. I'll admit that I was using it as was everyone in my clan. it was just too useful. of course it was one of the first things they fixed, even before fixing the numerous other bugs which plagued the game
Are you suggesting that because everyone in your clan was using it, that makes it ok for you to use it?
not suggesting anything but feel free to read into it anything u like Wayne
It just sounded like you were trying to justify it rather than completely owning that you were cheating. It's a way of discounting what you are doing as a bad thing because everyone is doing it.
sure it may sound that way if u take that one part out of context. I don't need jsutification for anything I do. know why? because I capable of policing my own behavior, not that it comes up too often, I don't google for exploits or anything like that but if I happen across something that I feel is an unfair advantage, I wont do it. not that I feel any overwhelming responsibility to the community but because when me & my team take down that legendary boss I want to be able to say that I didn't need to cheat to do it. just me & my skill ( & the team of course). now the expoit in TR, that ws harmless, we know if would be fixed & it ws handy. I didn't get any gold from it, it didn't give a leg up in PvP, no lingering implications for the game's population. it jsut cut down on travel time. I'm sure you'll tell me you wouldn't have used it
Ahh Cheating... This is a fun topic. I see much Judgement and condemnation has already been dealt out. Real Evil exists in this world, associating in game "cheating" with this is not only silly but cheapens the word for those who actually really deserve it.
I’m a gaming nerd, and like most gaming nerds with a tabletop gaming background, I know what my alignment is: I’m generally chaotic good. I try not to harm people needlessly and I mostly abide by rules and laws, when they make sense to me.
So let me ask since you played table top. When your gaming group had been playing for 6 months and a new player arrived did your GM start that player at level 1 (say a good 10 levels behind the party) or did the GM level that person up, fast track them or let them start on par with a pregenerated level 10? If they did was that person cheating to play a level 10 the first day while it took the rest of you 6 months to get to that level?
Of course not. The GM sets the rules the rules are all agreed upon by everyone (mostly )and it would be stupid otherwise to have some level 1 adventuring with a party of level 10s. Plus the level acheivement isn't nearly as important as the social context.
Fast forward to MMOs. We can say that those EULA are the rules of our game. But lets not even remotely pretend like we the players have any say in what goes in them. We certianly have the choice of not playing and paying (and thereby maybe a indirect input) but that is different.
You see with the tabletop Games our GMs weren't getting paid (generally) their primary motivation was that "everyone" had a good time. The primary motivation behind an MMO is for the game company to MAKE MONEY. They are not interested primarily in a fair gaming experience for all. They are interested in extending your subscription time primarily.
Pretending that these are fully Closed Eco-systems existing entirely sperate from our world is proposterous and disillusioned. Fairness in any way does not exist (just as it doesn't exist in this world). Time is the primary resource in these Worlds (as in ours) and MMOs don't even try to balance it. In fact they do just the oppisite, they exaggerate int the oppisite direction from any balance of time toward the player with most amount of time to waste. These games will never be sperated from the real world because the time you have to play has the most impact on your success and that time is completely dictated by this world.
Lets not even try to pretend that these games "start" with a level playing field. They do not. They are not designed to. They are designed to make money and extend subscription times.
So, if every single person was using the exact same cheats, [the cheaters] would no longer have the advantage and would be very upset about it. They do not want level ground.
That's hilarious. I got the mental image of cheater hell.
Pretending that these are fully Closed Eco-systems existing entirely sperate from our world is proposterous and disillusioned. Fairness in any way does not exist (just as it doesn't exist in this world). Time is the primary resource in these Worlds (as in ours) and MMOs don't even try to balance it. In fact they do just the oppisite, they exaggerate int the oppisite direction from any balance of time toward the player with most amount of time to waste. These games will never be sperated from the real world because the time you have to play has the most impact on your success and that time is completely dictated by this world.
That is a personal flaw. If players are so upset by what everyone else has that they have to hurt others to make themselves feel better, that is called envy. One of the seven deadly sins.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Pretending that these are fully Closed Eco-systems existing entirely sperate from our world is proposterous and disillusioned. Fairness in any way does not exist (just as it doesn't exist in this world). Time is the primary resource in these Worlds (as in ours) and MMOs don't even try to balance it. In fact they do just the oppisite, they exaggerate int the oppisite direction from any balance of time toward the player with most amount of time to waste. These games will never be sperated from the real world because the time you have to play has the most impact on your success and that time is completely dictated by this world.
That is a personal flaw. If you are so upset by what everyone else has that you have to hurt others to make yourself feel better, that is called envy. One of the seven deadly sins.
Thats an Ad Hominem argument.
But even if we were to accept the that primary motivation behind a cheater is envy then the whole premise of the anti-cheater falls flat on its face for the exact same reason (you are envious of the cheater for what they have obtained given the "work" you put in for the same accomplishment). Agian this arguement is ad hominem but can be cleanly revesed back to on to you if you wish to make it.
Pretending that these are fully Closed Eco-systems existing entirely sperate from our world is proposterous and disillusioned. Fairness in any way does not exist (just as it doesn't exist in this world). Time is the primary resource in these Worlds (as in ours) and MMOs don't even try to balance it. In fact they do just the oppisite, they exaggerate int the oppisite direction from any balance of time toward the player with most amount of time to waste. These games will never be sperated from the real world because the time you have to play has the most impact on your success and that time is completely dictated by this world.
That is a personal flaw. If you are so upset by what everyone else has that you have to hurt others to make yourself feel better, that is called envy. One of the seven deadly sins.
Thats an Ad Hominem argument.
But even if we were to accept the that primary motivation behind a cheater is envy then the whole premise of the anti-cheater falls flat on its face for the exact same reason (you are envious of the cheater for what they have obtained given the "work" you put in for the same accomplishment). Agian this arguement is ad hominem but can be cleanly revesed back to on to you if you wish to make it.
your circular logic is giving me a migrane, wonder if I can sue...
Pretending that these are fully Closed Eco-systems existing entirely sperate from our world is proposterous and disillusioned. Fairness in any way does not exist (just as it doesn't exist in this world). Time is the primary resource in these Worlds (as in ours) and MMOs don't even try to balance it. In fact they do just the oppisite, they exaggerate int the oppisite direction from any balance of time toward the player with most amount of time to waste. These games will never be sperated from the real world because the time you have to play has the most impact on your success and that time is completely dictated by this world.
That is a personal flaw. If you are so upset by what everyone else has that you have to hurt others to make yourself feel better, that is called envy. One of the seven deadly sins.
Thats an Ad Hominem argument.
But even if we were to accept the that primary motivation behind a cheater is envy then the whole premise of the anti-cheater falls flat on its face for the exact same reason (you are envious of the cheater for what they have obtained given the "work" you put in for the same accomplishment). Agian this arguement is ad hominem but can be cleanly revesed back to on to you if you wish to make it.
But that's where I think you are wrong. I don't care what other people do in the game. I follow my own path. I don't feel cheats hurt me, personally. But others may. I'm talking about fairness, not about how I personally stack up against other players, regardless of whether or not they cheat. One deals with what you are able to accomplish. The other is what you are willing to accomplish. Players are not able to move faster or duplicate gold legally in the game. Some players are willing to spend more time or money on the game to accomplish more. Do you see the difference?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
But that's where I think you are wrong. I don't care what other people do in the game. I follow my own path. I don't feel cheats hurt me, personally. But others may. I'm talking about fairness, not about how I personally stack up against other players, regardless of whether or not they cheat. One deals with what you are able to accomplish. The other is what you are willing to accomplish. Players are not able to move faster or duplicatge gold legally in the game. Some players are willing to spend more time or money on the game to accomplish more. Do you see the difference?
Of course the whole premise of my argument is fairness. And thats my point the rules aren't fair and they never were. They weren't ever meant to be fair, they were meant to sell copies and keep subscriptions. Claiming any moral ground based on following them or not is simply ignoring the complexity of the whole truth and oversimplifying it. The rules are broken I simply can't blame some cheaters for trying to fix it back in thier favor.
But that's where I think you are wrong. I don't care what other people do in the game. I follow my own path. I don't feel cheats hurt me, personally. But others may. I'm talking about fairness, not about how I personally stack up against other players, regardless of whether or not they cheat. One deals with what you are able to accomplish. The other is what you are willing to accomplish. Players are not able to move faster or duplicatge gold legally in the game. Some players are willing to spend more time or money on the game to accomplish more. Do you see the difference?
Of course the whole premise of my argument is fairness. And thats my point the rules aren't fair and they never were. They weren't ever meant to be fair, they were meant to sell copies and keep subscriptions. Claiming any moral ground based on following them or not is simply ignoring the complexity of the whole truth and oversimplifying it. The rules are broken I simply can't blame some cheaters for trying to fix it back in thier favor.
I'd argue that the rules are fair for most people, otherwise nobody would be playing. This principle applies to life, as well as video games, board games, card games, and sports.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
There are always grey areas, whether it be irl or game makes no difference. If you see everything in black and white then i that would mean you are inflexible in your playstyle, how do you ever manage to deal with the chaos and fluidity of a online game? Well i hope we never meet in pvp then, for your sake more then mine lol
Now you're resorting to a strawman argument.
We aren't talking about "managing with chaos and fluidity of an online game".
We're talking about a very specific activity: cheating. And when it comes to cheating, yes... it is a black-and-white issue. You are either cheating or you aren't, and it is always wrong.
There is no gray area.
You really are not helping your case. At all.
It would help your case if there was a clearly defined definition of "cheating". Is it allowed by the Dev's? Then by definition it is not "cheating". Yes, yes I know that to a black and white perspective, even asking for a clear definition brands one as not of The People... ^^ We might even agree on the definition (stranger things have happened...^^). Then one could say that violations of *that* definition would indeed be "cheating". Beyond that is little more than hand waving.
Its fairly simple ... Developers need to start handling the exploiters with a heavy iron fist. Any time I play a mmo and I know there is exploiting going on but the Developers are refusing to tar and feather the exploiters, I make a point of ensuring the whole community knows exactly who did what.
I don't believe tattling is bad and exploiting pisses me off to no end.
Agreed. The hacks and cheats in Age of Conan are what was the final nail in the coffin for me with that game. The game had/has problems and I could work with those. I just couldn't handle the level of cheating that was going on and how obvious it was and how Funcom handledi t when players reported it.
Ahh Cheating... This is a fun topic. I see much Judgement and condemnation has already been dealt out. Real Evil exists in this world, associating in game "cheating" with this is not only silly but cheapens the word for those who actually really deserve it.
I’m a gaming nerd, and like most gaming nerds with a tabletop gaming background, I know what my alignment is: I’m generally chaotic good. I try not to harm people needlessly and I mostly abide by rules and laws, when they make sense to me.
So let me ask since you played table top. When your gaming group had been playing for 6 months and a new player arrived did your GM start that player at level 1 (say a good 10 levels behind the party) or did the GM level that person up, fast track them or let them start on par with a pregenerated level 10? If they did was that person cheating to play a level 10 the first day while it took the rest of you 6 months to get to that level?
Of course not. The GM sets the rules the rules are all agreed upon by everyone (mostly )and it would be stupid otherwise to have some level 1 adventuring with a party of level 10s. Plus the level acheivement isn't nearly as important as the social context.
Fast forward to MMOs. We can say that those EULA are the rules of our game. But lets not even remotely pretend like we the players have any say in what goes in them. We certianly have the choice of not playing and paying (and thereby maybe a indirect input) but that is different.
You see with the tabletop Games our GMs weren't getting paid (generally) their primary motivation was that "everyone" had a good time. The primary motivation behind an MMO is for the game company to MAKE MONEY. They are not interested primarily in a fair gaming experience for all. They are interested in extending your subscription time primarily.
Pretending that these are fully Closed Eco-systems existing entirely sperate from our world is proposterous and disillusioned. Fairness in any way does not exist (just as it doesn't exist in this world). Time is the primary resource in these Worlds (as in ours) and MMOs don't even try to balance it. In fact they do just the oppisite, they exaggerate int the oppisite direction from any balance of time toward the player with most amount of time to waste. These games will never be sperated from the real world because the time you have to play has the most impact on your success and that time is completely dictated by this world.
Lets not even try to pretend that these games "start" with a level playing field. They do not. They are not designed to. They are designed to make money and extend subscription times.
I ran a long term game/campaign for almost 15 years with players around the country/world due to my life at the time. The reason I outgrew "level based" table top gaming systems by 1982-ish was I didn't care for how artifical they were. I moved on to skill/level systems and then by the mid 1980s "skill based" systems. When you play those "type" of gaming systems you don't have to play the "level up" the new players character game.
There are always grey areas, whether it be irl or game makes no difference. If you see everything in black and white then i that would mean you are inflexible in your playstyle, how do you ever manage to deal with the chaos and fluidity of a online game? Well i hope we never meet in pvp then, for your sake more then mine lol
Now you're resorting to a strawman argument.
We aren't talking about "managing with chaos and fluidity of an online game".
We're talking about a very specific activity: cheating. And when it comes to cheating, yes... it is a black-and-white issue. You are either cheating or you aren't, and it is always wrong.
There is no gray area.
You really are not helping your case. At all.
It would help your case if there was a clearly defined definition of "cheating". Is it allowed by the Dev's? Then by definition it is not "cheating". Yes, yes I know that to a black and white perspective, even asking for a clear definition brands one as not of The People... ^^ We might even agree on the definition (stranger things have happened...^^). Then one could say that violations of *that* definition would indeed be "cheating". Beyond that is little more than hand waving.
Oh, come on.
Please tell me you're being facetious.
If you're not, then just use some common sense.
Obviously, cheating in this context means performing an action in a game that is not intended or allowed and provides an unintended and unfair advantage to the one using the cheat, either over intended gameplay mechanics, or over other players. If your next question is "how do you know if it's allowed or not?"... simple. Ask the developer. Whatever they determine is what you go by. In most cases of cheating, I find the cheaters know what they're doing is not intended and not allowed... but they do it anyway.
If it's allowed by the devs and considered a legitimate activity in the context and confines of the game, then it's obviously not a "cheat" and obviously not relevant to this discussion.
Somehow I'm sure you already knew that.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Ahh Cheating... This is a fun topic. I see much Judgement and condemnation has already been dealt out. Real Evil exists in this world, associating in game "cheating" with this is not only silly but cheapens the word for those who actually really deserve it.
I see... you're taking the relativistic approach.
MMORPGs are not table-top PnP games. In those games, the DMs are encouraged to interpret the rules and apply them, or not apply them as they see fit for their particular setting.
In MMORPGs, the rules are established by the developer and they are the arbiter of what is or isn't permitted. In this scenario, the developer would be the GM establishing and enforcing the rules - not the player.
Regardless of what philosophy you choose to follow, which renders cheating as "a-okay" to you ("you" being in general)... if the actions you have justified to yourself are against the game's ToS and considered a cheat of some kind... Guess what? Your personal philosophy means squat. You lose.
It's the developer's game. It's the developers rules. Period.
There is no "relativistic" angle to it, just as there is no "gray area" between "cheating" and "not cheating". Type up all the relativistic rhetoric you like... it doesn't change a thing. Cheating is cheating.
If you're going to cheat, hack, exploit or do whatever it is you prefer, then that's what you're going to do.
But at least man up and acknowledge it for what it is. Stop with all this pseudo-intellectual spin-doctor nonsense trying to rationalize or justify it. If you're someone who enjoys cheating in games, then just say 'I enjoy cheating in games', and be honest about it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
There are always grey areas, whether it be irl or game makes no difference. If you see everything in black and white then i that would mean you are inflexible in your playstyle, how do you ever manage to deal with the chaos and fluidity of a online game? Well i hope we never meet in pvp then, for your sake more then mine lol
Now you're resorting to a strawman argument.
We aren't talking about "managing with chaos and fluidity of an online game".
We're talking about a very specific activity: cheating. And when it comes to cheating, yes... it is a black-and-white issue. You are either cheating or you aren't, and it is always wrong.
There is no gray area.
You really are not helping your case. At all.
It would help your case if there was a clearly defined definition of "cheating". Is it allowed by the Dev's? Then by definition it is not "cheating". Yes, yes I know that to a black and white perspective, even asking for a clear definition brands one as not of The People... ^^ We might even agree on the definition (stranger things have happened...^^). Then one could say that violations of *that* definition would indeed be "cheating". Beyond that is little more than hand waving.
Oh, come on.
Please tell me you're being facetious.
If you're not, then just use some common sense.
Obviously, cheating in this context means performing an action in a game that is not intended or allowed and provides an unintended and unfair advantage to the one using the cheat, either over intended gameplay mechanics, or over other players. If your next question is "how do you know if it's allowed or not?"... simple. Ask the developer. Whatever they determine is what you go by. In most cases of cheating, I find the cheaters know what they're doing is not intended and not allowed... but they do it anyway.
If it's allowed by the devs and considered a legitimate activity in the context and confines of the game, then it's obviously not a "cheat" and obviously not relevant to this discussion.
Somehow I'm sure you already knew that.
Some how I suspected that would be your response... I guess I'm just not of The People... ^^ "Common Sense" tends to be neither. Your above is riddled with subjectives. Take "intended or allowed" as an example. Players are supposed to be able to mind read, and thus know what the Dev's "intended"? Or is that part of the Vision Thing(tm) that Dev's are so prone to speak of? Ah, thats where "common sense" comes in... Nothing subjective here... Move along Citizen... ^^
As for "allowed", allowed by whom, or what? The software? That opens up an entirely different can of worms. Are you quite certain you wish to go there? ^^ Strictly speaking, (in that context) if its not "allowed", then you can't do it. Unless we now fall back to "intended" and "common sense"... This could go around and around...
Just another demonstration that in the absence of clear definitions, "Black and White" turn out to either be unexamined assumptions, or part of a Belief system. In *some* situations there do tend to be binary Right/Wrong *choices*. In others its not nearly that clear. As for "unfair", the mind boggles at the subjective implications... ^^
The rules are broken I simply can't blame some cheaters for trying to fix it back in thier favor.
It seems here your stance is that cheating for personal gain is greater than the negative impact it has on the community. That seems to go against your Community > Personal Acheivement policy, no?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMORPGs are not table-top PnP games. In those games, the DMs are encouraged to interpret the rules and apply them, or not apply them as they see fit for their particular setting.
In MMORPGs, the rules are established by the developer and they are the arbiter of what is or isn't permitted. In this scenario, the developer would be the GM establishing and enforcing the rules - not the player.
Regardless of what philosophy you choose to follow, which renders cheating as "a-okay" to you ("you" being in general)... if the actions you have justified to yourself are against the game's ToS and considered a cheat of some kind... Guess what? Your personal philosophy means squat. You lose.
It's the developer's game. It's the developers rules. Period.
There is no "relativistic" angle to it, just as there is no "gray area" between "cheating" and "not cheating". Type up all the relativistic rhetoric you like... it doesn't change a thing. Cheating is cheating.
That's a very interesting point, possibly related: Maybe if developers took more of a DM type role in thier online games, players wouldn't be as compelled to cheat. I know I've often thought that not having an actual DM was something huge that was missing from the early online 3D RPGs (except for NWN) and something I envisioned those games evolving toward.
The developers automated the dice rolls but forgot to put in a truly dynamic story. I don't believe these new MMO's coming out that are touting story are any different. They may say it's dynamic content, but unless there is another human playing as the content in some fashion, it's all static as far as I'm concerned; Easier to get away with cheating and possibly giving more reason to do so, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
There are always grey areas, whether it be irl or game makes no difference. If you see everything in black and white then i that would mean you are inflexible in your playstyle, how do you ever manage to deal with the chaos and fluidity of a online game? Well i hope we never meet in pvp then, for your sake more then mine lol
Now you're resorting to a strawman argument.
We aren't talking about "managing with chaos and fluidity of an online game".
We're talking about a very specific activity: cheating. And when it comes to cheating, yes... it is a black-and-white issue. You are either cheating or you aren't, and it is always wrong.
There is no gray area.
You really are not helping your case. At all.
It would help your case if there was a clearly defined definition of "cheating". Is it allowed by the Dev's? Then by definition it is not "cheating". Yes, yes I know that to a black and white perspective, even asking for a clear definition brands one as not of The People... ^^ We might even agree on the definition (stranger things have happened...^^). Then one could say that violations of *that* definition would indeed be "cheating". Beyond that is little more than hand waving.
Oh, come on.
Please tell me you're being facetious.
If you're not, then just use some common sense.
Obviously, cheating in this context means performing an action in a game that is not intended or allowed and provides an unintended and unfair advantage to the one using the cheat, either over intended gameplay mechanics, or over other players. If your next question is "how do you know if it's allowed or not?"... simple. Ask the developer. Whatever they determine is what you go by. In most cases of cheating, I find the cheaters know what they're doing is not intended and not allowed... but they do it anyway.
If it's allowed by the devs and considered a legitimate activity in the context and confines of the game, then it's obviously not a "cheat" and obviously not relevant to this discussion.
Somehow I'm sure you already knew that.
Some how I suspected that would be your response... I guess I'm just not of The People... ^^ "Common Sense" tends to be neither. Your above is riddled with subjectives. Take "intended or allowed" as an example. Players are supposed to be able to mind read, and thus know what the Dev's "intended"? Or is that part of the Vision Thing(tm) that Dev's are so prone to speak of? Ah, thats where "common sense" comes in... Nothing subjective here... Move along Citizen... ^^
As for "allowed", allowed by whom, or what? The software? That opens up an entirely different can of worms. Are you quite certain you wish to go there? ^^ Strictly speaking, (in that context) if its not "allowed", then you can't do it. Unless we now fall back to "intended" and "common sense"... This could go around and around...
Just another demonstration that in the absence of clear definitions, "Black and White" turn out to either be unexamined assumptions, or part of a Belief system. In *some* situations there do tend to be binary Right/Wrong *choices*. In others its not nearly that clear. As for "unfair", the mind boggles at the subjective implications... ^^
So YOUR argument is with yourself, not others then. Because the majority of people know what cheating is, & those who cheat, definatly know their doing it.
Which means, if u cheat = sub-human who needs hacks, to compete, or take on a challenge. U want what u cannot have, so u cheat to feel the accomplishment's of others whom you envy. We all know why they hack..
But what needs to be done with them is very simply. Deny them ur product. If they are found cheating, their account is closed and that credit card & address no longer usable. Better yet, just have root kits installed, that simply doesn't allow them to play the game. These cheaters will scream so loudly because their not uber anymore... lol
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
There are always grey areas, whether it be irl or game makes no difference. If you see everything in black and white then i that would mean you are inflexible in your playstyle, how do you ever manage to deal with the chaos and fluidity of a online game? Well i hope we never meet in pvp then, for your sake more then mine lol
Now you're resorting to a strawman argument.
We aren't talking about "managing with chaos and fluidity of an online game".
We're talking about a very specific activity: cheating. And when it comes to cheating, yes... it is a black-and-white issue. You are either cheating or you aren't, and it is always wrong.
There is no gray area.
You really are not helping your case. At all.
It would help your case if there was a clearly defined definition of "cheating". Is it allowed by the Dev's? Then by definition it is not "cheating". Yes, yes I know that to a black and white perspective, even asking for a clear definition brands one as not of The People... ^^ We might even agree on the definition (stranger things have happened...^^). Then one could say that violations of *that* definition would indeed be "cheating". Beyond that is little more than hand waving.
Oh, come on.
Please tell me you're being facetious.
If you're not, then just use some common sense.
Obviously, cheating in this context means performing an action in a game that is not intended or allowed and provides an unintended and unfair advantage to the one using the cheat, either over intended gameplay mechanics, or over other players. If your next question is "how do you know if it's allowed or not?"... simple. Ask the developer. Whatever they determine is what you go by. In most cases of cheating, I find the cheaters know what they're doing is not intended and not allowed... but they do it anyway.
If it's allowed by the devs and considered a legitimate activity in the context and confines of the game, then it's obviously not a "cheat" and obviously not relevant to this discussion.
Somehow I'm sure you already knew that.
Some how I suspected that would be your response... I guess I'm just not of The People... ^^ "Common Sense" tends to be neither. Your above is riddled with subjectives. Take "intended or allowed" as an example. Players are supposed to be able to mind read, and thus know what the Dev's "intended"? Or is that part of the Vision Thing(tm) that Dev's are so prone to speak of? Ah, thats where "common sense" comes in... Nothing subjective here... Move along Citizen... ^^
As for "allowed", allowed by whom, or what? The software? That opens up an entirely different can of worms. Are you quite certain you wish to go there? ^^ Strictly speaking, (in that context) if its not "allowed", then you can't do it. Unless we now fall back to "intended" and "common sense"... This could go around and around...
Just another demonstration that in the absence of clear definitions, "Black and White" turn out to either be unexamined assumptions, or part of a Belief system. In *some* situations there do tend to be binary Right/Wrong *choices*. In others its not nearly that clear. As for "unfair", the mind boggles at the subjective implications... ^^
Mike's definition was quite clear. I think this last responces is hollow and hard to follow, like you might not really know what you are talking about. No offense, I agree with many of your other posts.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Some how I suspected that would be your response... I guess I'm just not of The People... ^^ "Common Sense" tends to be neither. Your above is riddled with subjectives. Take "intended or allowed" as an example. Players are supposed to be able to mind read, and thus know what the Dev's "intended"? Or is that part of the Vision Thing(tm) that Dev's are so prone to speak of? Ah, thats where "common sense" comes in... Nothing subjective here... Move along Citizen... ^^
You know the answer to this, Wraith. Stop playing dumb.
As for "allowed", allowed by whom, or what? The software? That opens up an entirely different can of worms. Are you quite certain you wish to go there? ^^ Strictly speaking, (in that context) if its not "allowed", then you can't do it. Unless we now fall back to "intended" and "common sense"... This could go around and around...
Again, I'm sure you know the answer to this.
Just another demonstration that in the absence of clear definitions, "Black and White" turn out to either be unexamined assumptions, or part of a Belief system. In *some* situations there do tend to be binary Right/Wrong *choices*. In others its not nearly that clear. As for "unfair", the mind boggles at the subjective implications... ^^
Such activities are well-defined and oft discussed. There are myriad types of prohibited activities that are. sadly, commonplace in MMORPGs, that are discussed and debated every day on forums. There is talk of mass bannings occuring as a result of such activities.
Who determines what's considered "cheating"? The developer does and they make it known in their ToS and/or in announcements in game and/or posted on their website.
- Botting in its various forms.
- Hacking in its various forms.
- Duping in its various forms.
- Exploits of terrain, mob AI, etc...
- Un-sanctioned 3rd party RMT (gold selling/buying, power-leveling, buying and selling virtual goods or characters, etc)
And so on...
You have heard of all those things, right? You are aware that such activities exist, have existed in most every MMO out there, right? You are aware that they are pretty much universally prohibited and considered a ban-able offense by developers, right?
Again, I'm sure you do.
As for "how does the player know what's considered cheating"... again, I'm sure you know the answer to this as well as I do.
Example: Someone using a third party script that allows them to move around underground and avoid aggro and detection by players, or to otherwise warp around the game world - something that can not be done through normal gameplay - knows damn well they are using a hack and are, thus, cheating.
I really don't know what the point is of your rebuttals, since you're really not making one.
However, I'm well aware after your last post of what you're trying to pull here... I'm not going to play along any more than I already have.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
It is funny how cheaters talk about the games they cheat in as if they were some kind of basic human need they were forced to fullfill and partecipate in even at the cost of cheating and potentially screwing a whole community out of it.
Games are a luxury, not your birthright.
If the game is too boring for you, if you don´t have the time to play the game, if the game is too hard for you, if you don´t agree on how the game is managed or the direction the game is taking...
Like....don´t play the game and find one that suits your playstyle?
Shocking idea, is it not?
Rawr.
sorry, but all i see is people making up excuses for them cheating in games. there is NO logical reason to do it. and i wont do it. never will. nev er did.
you guys are most likely among those who felt sorry for gutenberg too. you guys just make me sick.
this aint about some mp3 or anthing else, this is about games which are EXPLICITELY designed to give players´a way to challange others, and not their bots or scripts. if you need them, go back to school and cheat your notes.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
The fact that a CCP developer was caught cheating is enough and is no excuse to justify or ignore the issue of developer cheating. Only a fanboy would try to claim that. It is also not irrelevant as the topic is about cheating in general and nowhere was it strictly limited to only player cheating.
The fact it happened with a developer on a single server game is not negligible effect and should never be forgotten as much as fanboys might wish it to be. I know real people, real players, that were affected so don't just blithely claim it affected nobody. Proven cheating is proven cheating, period no matter how long ago it was. When someone gets an unfair advantage on a server, it affects the entire economy, particularly if as in that particular case, it was a limited item that was unfairly given out. The dev giving it to his buddies meant all the other players on the server were denied the opportunity to gain it through fair means, and it means that enemies of that particular cheating group were placed at an unfair disadvantage. A developer cheating is even worse than player cheating because they are in possession of insider information and powers to eliminate or alter the game world or eliminate evidence from being easily found by players. They are supposed to be the referees and arbiters to stop cheating, not the ones trying to get in on the corruption.
Developer cheating should not just be dismissed as some never to be seen again freak event. They are still people and people cheat when they see enough incentive for personal gain and being able to get away with it. Put people in positions of power, and if they develop biases or ties to player factions, expect the temptation of corruption and cheating to arise (or turning a blind eye to cheating by their ingame friends). Things get even worse if the potential exists to readily convert game currency or items to real world currency. "Who watches the watchdogs?" That is why the best solution is to remove the incentive for developers to cheat in the first place. Catching them after the fact is already too late as the damage to a game's reputation is already done.
Ahhh... no back-pedaling please.
You made an absolute statement.. and a generalization at that:
You said:
"The truth is those people you call cheaters were just like you at one time, saying the exact same things against cheating being said now, only they probably found something in game one day that changed them and how they play."
There is nothing ambiguous in that statement, or the rest of your post. The part in orange is particularly assertive as you are characterizing it as "the truth", which says nothing about "with who and when" as you are now spinning it. Further, "with who" wouldn't matter. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat, no matter who's doing it, why they're doing it, when they're doing it or whom they're doing it with.
You're really reaching to take the onus off the cheater... that much is clear. Sadly, that dog won't hunt. It is what it is.
You made a very specific assertion there, that people who cheat were once "anti-cheat" but that something in the game turned them into cheaters. There's nothing about "with who" they became cheaters. "When they did" would be the same as "why they did" in this case, which in your argument would be "when something in the game made them become a cheater". It's just as bogus.
Again, it's apologist nonsense. You're taking responsibility off the cheater, and putting it on the game. That is a classic sob story used by cheaters all the time to defend their behavior; "Oh well I wouldn't have to cheat if the game didn't force me to".
The game doesn't force people to cheat. The game doesn't even force them to play it. They choose to play. They choose to cheat. Period. End of discussion.
Honestly... it's topics like this that really irk me. Cheating is lame enough as it is. To see people trying to defend it, make excuses for it, or - as in your case, Drak - attempting to spin or twist it around - It's just all the more annoying.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Now you're resorting to a strawman argument.
We aren't talking about "managing with chaos and fluidity of an online game".
We're talking about a very specific activity: cheating. And when it comes to cheating, yes... it is a black-and-white issue. You are either cheating or you aren't, and it is always wrong.
There is no gray area.
You really are not helping your case. At all.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
And again with the strawmen and, in your last statement, an ad hominem.
Those things you mention are all reasons to choose not to play the game if you find them undesirable or intolerable. They are not justifications for cheating.
Drak.. Seriously... You are trying to defend the indefensible here. Spinning, twisting and distorting it doesn't change what it is. It doesn't make it right or justified... ever... under any circumstances.
People choose to cheat. They are not, ever, forced to.
Games do not "make people cheat". People choose to cheat.
A game having elements that a player disagrees with or finds undesirable is not a justification to cheat. It's a reason to consider whether they want to continue playing that game or not.
There is no good justification or rationalization that makes it any less lame than it is.
Period.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I do, thanks for noticing
Ahh Cheating... This is a fun topic. I see much Judgement and condemnation has already been dealt out. Real Evil exists in this world, associating in game "cheating" with this is not only silly but cheapens the word for those who actually really deserve it.
I’m a gaming nerd, and like most gaming nerds with a tabletop gaming background, I know what my alignment is: I’m generally chaotic good. I try not to harm people needlessly and I mostly abide by rules and laws, when they make sense to me.
So let me ask since you played table top. When your gaming group had been playing for 6 months and a new player arrived did your GM start that player at level 1 (say a good 10 levels behind the party) or did the GM level that person up, fast track them or let them start on par with a pregenerated level 10? If they did was that person cheating to play a level 10 the first day while it took the rest of you 6 months to get to that level?
Of course not. The GM sets the rules the rules are all agreed upon by everyone (mostly
)and it would be stupid otherwise to have some level 1 adventuring with a party of level 10s. Plus the level acheivement isn't nearly as important as the social context.
Fast forward to MMOs. We can say that those EULA are the rules of our game. But lets not even remotely pretend like we the players have any say in what goes in them. We certianly have the choice of not playing and paying (and thereby maybe a indirect input) but that is different.
You see with the tabletop Games our GMs weren't getting paid (generally) their primary motivation was that "everyone" had a good time. The primary motivation behind an MMO is for the game company to MAKE MONEY. They are not interested primarily in a fair gaming experience for all. They are interested in extending your subscription time primarily.
Pretending that these are fully Closed Eco-systems existing entirely sperate from our world is proposterous and disillusioned. Fairness in any way does not exist (just as it doesn't exist in this world). Time is the primary resource in these Worlds (as in ours) and MMOs don't even try to balance it. In fact they do just the oppisite, they exaggerate int the oppisite direction from any balance of time toward the player with most amount of time to waste. These games will never be sperated from the real world because the time you have to play has the most impact on your success and that time is completely dictated by this world.
Lets not even try to pretend that these games "start" with a level playing field. They do not. They are not designed to. They are designed to make money and extend subscription times.
That's hilarious. I got the mental image of cheater hell.
That is a personal flaw. If players are so upset by what everyone else has that they have to hurt others to make themselves feel better, that is called envy. One of the seven deadly sins.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Thats an Ad Hominem argument.
But even if we were to accept the that primary motivation behind a cheater is envy then the whole premise of the anti-cheater falls flat on its face for the exact same reason (you are envious of the cheater for what they have obtained given the "work" you put in for the same accomplishment). Agian this arguement is ad hominem but can be cleanly revesed back to on to you if you wish to make it.
your circular logic is giving me a migrane, wonder if I can sue...
But that's where I think you are wrong. I don't care what other people do in the game. I follow my own path. I don't feel cheats hurt me, personally. But others may. I'm talking about fairness, not about how I personally stack up against other players, regardless of whether or not they cheat. One deals with what you are able to accomplish. The other is what you are willing to accomplish. Players are not able to move faster or duplicate gold legally in the game. Some players are willing to spend more time or money on the game to accomplish more. Do you see the difference?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Of course the whole premise of my argument is fairness. And thats my point the rules aren't fair and they never were. They weren't ever meant to be fair, they were meant to sell copies and keep subscriptions. Claiming any moral ground based on following them or not is simply ignoring the complexity of the whole truth and oversimplifying it. The rules are broken I simply can't blame some cheaters for trying to fix it back in thier favor.
I'd argue that the rules are fair for most people, otherwise nobody would be playing. This principle applies to life, as well as video games, board games, card games, and sports.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It would help your case if there was a clearly defined definition of "cheating". Is it allowed by the Dev's? Then by definition it is not "cheating". Yes, yes I know that to a black and white perspective, even asking for a clear definition brands one as not of The People... ^^ We might even agree on the definition (stranger things have happened...^^). Then one could say that violations of *that* definition would indeed be "cheating". Beyond that is little more than hand waving.
Agreed. The hacks and cheats in Age of Conan are what was the final nail in the coffin for me with that game. The game had/has problems and I could work with those. I just couldn't handle the level of cheating that was going on and how obvious it was and how Funcom handledi t when players reported it.
I ran a long term game/campaign for almost 15 years with players around the country/world due to my life at the time. The reason I outgrew "level based" table top gaming systems by 1982-ish was I didn't care for how artifical they were. I moved on to skill/level systems and then by the mid 1980s "skill based" systems. When you play those "type" of gaming systems you don't have to play the "level up" the new players character game.
Oh, come on.
Please tell me you're being facetious.
If you're not, then just use some common sense.
Obviously, cheating in this context means performing an action in a game that is not intended or allowed and provides an unintended and unfair advantage to the one using the cheat, either over intended gameplay mechanics, or over other players. If your next question is "how do you know if it's allowed or not?"... simple. Ask the developer. Whatever they determine is what you go by. In most cases of cheating, I find the cheaters know what they're doing is not intended and not allowed... but they do it anyway.
If it's allowed by the devs and considered a legitimate activity in the context and confines of the game, then it's obviously not a "cheat" and obviously not relevant to this discussion.
Somehow I'm sure you already knew that.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I see... you're taking the relativistic approach.
MMORPGs are not table-top PnP games. In those games, the DMs are encouraged to interpret the rules and apply them, or not apply them as they see fit for their particular setting.
In MMORPGs, the rules are established by the developer and they are the arbiter of what is or isn't permitted. In this scenario, the developer would be the GM establishing and enforcing the rules - not the player.
Regardless of what philosophy you choose to follow, which renders cheating as "a-okay" to you ("you" being in general)... if the actions you have justified to yourself are against the game's ToS and considered a cheat of some kind... Guess what? Your personal philosophy means squat. You lose.
It's the developer's game. It's the developers rules. Period.
There is no "relativistic" angle to it, just as there is no "gray area" between "cheating" and "not cheating". Type up all the relativistic rhetoric you like... it doesn't change a thing. Cheating is cheating.
If you're going to cheat, hack, exploit or do whatever it is you prefer, then that's what you're going to do.
But at least man up and acknowledge it for what it is. Stop with all this pseudo-intellectual spin-doctor nonsense trying to rationalize or justify it. If you're someone who enjoys cheating in games, then just say 'I enjoy cheating in games', and be honest about it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Some how I suspected that would be your response... I guess I'm just not of The People... ^^ "Common Sense" tends to be neither. Your above is riddled with subjectives. Take "intended or allowed" as an example. Players are supposed to be able to mind read, and thus know what the Dev's "intended"? Or is that part of the Vision Thing(tm) that Dev's are so prone to speak of? Ah, thats where "common sense" comes in... Nothing subjective here... Move along Citizen... ^^
As for "allowed", allowed by whom, or what? The software? That opens up an entirely different can of worms. Are you quite certain you wish to go there? ^^ Strictly speaking, (in that context) if its not "allowed", then you can't do it. Unless we now fall back to "intended" and "common sense"... This could go around and around...
Just another demonstration that in the absence of clear definitions, "Black and White" turn out to either be unexamined assumptions, or part of a Belief system. In *some* situations there do tend to be binary Right/Wrong *choices*. In others its not nearly that clear. As for "unfair", the mind boggles at the subjective implications... ^^
It seems here your stance is that cheating for personal gain is greater than the negative impact it has on the community. That seems to go against your Community > Personal Acheivement policy, no?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That's a very interesting point, possibly related: Maybe if developers took more of a DM type role in thier online games, players wouldn't be as compelled to cheat. I know I've often thought that not having an actual DM was something huge that was missing from the early online 3D RPGs (except for NWN) and something I envisioned those games evolving toward.
The developers automated the dice rolls but forgot to put in a truly dynamic story. I don't believe these new MMO's coming out that are touting story are any different. They may say it's dynamic content, but unless there is another human playing as the content in some fashion, it's all static as far as I'm concerned; Easier to get away with cheating and possibly giving more reason to do so, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
So YOUR argument is with yourself, not others then. Because the majority of people know what cheating is, & those who cheat, definatly know their doing it.
Which means, if u cheat = sub-human who needs hacks, to compete, or take on a challenge. U want what u cannot have, so u cheat to feel the accomplishment's of others whom you envy. We all know why they hack..
But what needs to be done with them is very simply. Deny them ur product. If they are found cheating, their account is closed and that credit card & address no longer usable. Better yet, just have root kits installed, that simply doesn't allow them to play the game. These cheaters will scream so loudly because their not uber anymore... lol
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Mike's definition was quite clear. I think this last responces is hollow and hard to follow, like you might not really know what you are talking about. No offense, I agree with many of your other posts.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops