There are always grey areas, whether it be irl or game makes no difference. If you see everything in black and white then i that would mean you are inflexible in your playstyle, how do you ever manage to deal with the chaos and fluidity of a online game? Well i hope we never meet in pvp then, for your sake more then mine lol
Now you're resorting to a strawman argument.
We aren't talking about "managing with chaos and fluidity of an online game".
We're talking about a very specific activity: cheating. And when it comes to cheating, yes... it is a black-and-white issue. You are either cheating or you aren't, and it is always wrong.
There is no gray area.
You really are not helping your case. At all.
It would help your case if there was a clearly defined definition of "cheating". Is it allowed by the Dev's? Then by definition it is not "cheating". Yes, yes I know that to a black and white perspective, even asking for a clear definition brands one as not of The People... ^^ We might even agree on the definition (stranger things have happened...^^). Then one could say that violations of *that* definition would indeed be "cheating". Beyond that is little more than hand waving.
Oh, come on.
Please tell me you're being facetious.
If you're not, then just use some common sense.
Obviously, cheating in this context means performing an action in a game that is not intended or allowed and provides an unintended and unfair advantage to the one using the cheat, either over intended gameplay mechanics, or over other players. If your next question is "how do you know if it's allowed or not?"... simple. Ask the developer. Whatever they determine is what you go by. In most cases of cheating, I find the cheaters know what they're doing is not intended and not allowed... but they do it anyway.
If it's allowed by the devs and considered a legitimate activity in the context and confines of the game, then it's obviously not a "cheat" and obviously not relevant to this discussion.
Somehow I'm sure you already knew that.
Some how I suspected that would be your response... I guess I'm just not of The People... ^^ "Common Sense" tends to be neither. Your above is riddled with subjectives. Take "intended or allowed" as an example. Players are supposed to be able to mind read, and thus know what the Dev's "intended"? Or is that part of the Vision Thing(tm) that Dev's are so prone to speak of? Ah, thats where "common sense" comes in... Nothing subjective here... Move along Citizen... ^^
As for "allowed", allowed by whom, or what? The software? That opens up an entirely different can of worms. Are you quite certain you wish to go there? ^^ Strictly speaking, (in that context) if its not "allowed", then you can't do it. Unless we now fall back to "intended" and "common sense"... This could go around and around...
Just another demonstration that in the absence of clear definitions, "Black and White" turn out to either be unexamined assumptions, or part of a Belief system. In *some* situations there do tend to be binary Right/Wrong *choices*. In others its not nearly that clear. As for "unfair", the mind boggles at the subjective implications... ^^
Mike's definition was quite clear. I think this last responces is hollow and hard to follow, like you might not really know what you are talking about. No offense, I agree with many of your other posts.
He's either being extremely facetious, being extremely intellectually dishonest... or he's doing something that I'm not allowed to call out on these forums (and I'll let you figure out what that is .
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Some how I suspected that would be your response... I guess I'm just not of The People... ^^ "Common Sense" tends to be neither. Your above is riddled with subjectives. Take "intended or allowed" as an example. Players are supposed to be able to mind read, and thus know what the Dev's "intended"?
?
I've never seen a cheat/exploit or heard of a cheat/exploit that didn't come across as as being anything other than a cheat/exploit.
If you are killing mobs and picking them off because they are getting stuck on geometry and the AI can't back it out and go around then it's an exploit. We've all seen mobs stuck on corners or rocks or bits of geometry.
If you are spending a bit of time before an encounter trying to finagle your way up onto a higher elevation such as a rock or statue and you can't just hop up there but have to finagle your way up there and you slide off so try again and keep trying until you are wedged in a geometry so you can pick enemies off then it's an exploit.
If you are going to a website and giving some third party your cash so they can deliver in game currency to you then that is a cheat.
if you figure out how to open and close your inventory while clicking on a weapon while you jump up and down and suddenly you have two of that weapon then that's an exploit.
I'd be more than happy to look at these "gray" areas that might exist but I've never seen a gray area where it wasn't clear as to whether or not it was a cheat/exploit.
If you don't like the term "common sense" fine but it's not hard to spot these things.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
MMORPGs are not table-top PnP games. In those games, the DMs are encouraged to interpret the rules and apply them, or not apply them as they see fit for their particular setting.
In MMORPGs, the rules are established by the developer and they are the arbiter of what is or isn't permitted. In this scenario, the developer would be the GM establishing and enforcing the rules - not the player.
Regardless of what philosophy you choose to follow, which renders cheating as "a-okay" to you ("you" being in general)... if the actions you have justified to yourself are against the game's ToS and considered a cheat of some kind... Guess what? Your personal philosophy means squat. You lose.
It's the developer's game. It's the developers rules. Period.
There is no "relativistic" angle to it, just as there is no "gray area" between "cheating" and "not cheating". Type up all the relativistic rhetoric you like... it doesn't change a thing. Cheating is cheating.
That's a very interesting point, possibly related: Maybe if developers took more of a DM type role in thier online games, players wouldn't be as compelled to cheat. I know I've often thought that not having an actual DM was something huge that was missing from the early online 3D RPGs (except for NWN) and something I envisioned those games evolving toward.
The developers automated the dice rolls but forgot to put in a truly dynamic story. I don't believe these new MMO's coming out that are touting story are any different. They may say it's dynamic content, but unless there is another human playing as the content in some fashion, it's all static as far as I'm concerned; Easier to get away with cheating and possibly giving more reason to do so, in my opinion.
If memory serves, there was a period of time when GMs in Lineage 2 were actively hopping around the world, entering popular xp'ing areas, etc... and looking for botters, hackers, etc.
They did manage to catch a number of them. However, after a time the "smarter" RMT folk figured out a way to detect them and would force-log as soon as they came within a certain perimeter of them. Reading the game's memory or something I suppose.
Best way to handle it would be for the GMs to move around as sort of "undercover agents" that would appear like any other player-controlled character - but have GM powers - and catch them in action that way.
One of the problems with GMs in many MMOs I find is that they basically draw attention to themselves, either with a GM prefix on their names, or by using unique armor, etc. In FFXI, the GMs have a unique red and white armor set that 'shimmers'. No other armor set in the game looks like that... so they sorta stand out.
Overall, I agree, though... If there were more GM presence in games - particularly around commonly exploited or botted areas - I think it would make a big difference.
Although, again citing FFXI, SE figured out some clever ways of dealing with different botters/cheaters by using in-game assets, specifically mobs, to deal with them. Easily one of the coolest means of dealing with botters I've seen are Goblin Bounty Hunters... Check these dudes out at this link.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
One of the problems with GMs in many MMOs I find is that they basically draw attention to themselves, either with a GM prefix on their names, or by using unique armor, etc. In FFXI, the GMs have a unique red and white armor set that 'shimmers'. No other armor set in the game looks like that... so they sorta stand out.
The standard for most MMOs is to have a very discernable presence when manifested for the sake of direct/group interaction and to be invisible (often untrackable) when doing other work. For example, UO GMs have distinct red robes and PotBS GMs have flaming gear and other weirdness, but the unique gear is to make sure they are readily discernible from a regular player when they are visible in order to prevent players from impersonating GMs and scamming/deceiving people.When they are not making a point to be visible, you will never know they are there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There are always grey areas, whether it be irl or game makes no difference. If you see everything in black and white then i that would mean you are inflexible in your playstyle, how do you ever manage to deal with the chaos and fluidity of a online game? Well i hope we never meet in pvp then, for your sake more then mine lol
Now you're resorting to a strawman argument.
We aren't talking about "managing with chaos and fluidity of an online game".
We're talking about a very specific activity: cheating. And when it comes to cheating, yes... it is a black-and-white issue. You are either cheating or you aren't, and it is always wrong.
There is no gray area.
You really are not helping your case. At all.
It would help your case if there was a clearly defined definition of "cheating". Is it allowed by the Dev's? Then by definition it is not "cheating". Yes, yes I know that to a black and white perspective, even asking for a clear definition brands one as not of The People... ^^ We might even agree on the definition (stranger things have happened...^^). Then one could say that violations of *that* definition would indeed be "cheating". Beyond that is little more than hand waving.
Oh, come on.
Please tell me you're being facetious.
If you're not, then just use some common sense.
Obviously, cheating in this context means performing an action in a game that is not intended or allowed and provides an unintended and unfair advantage to the one using the cheat, either over intended gameplay mechanics, or over other players. If your next question is "how do you know if it's allowed or not?"... simple. Ask the developer. Whatever they determine is what you go by. In most cases of cheating, I find the cheaters know what they're doing is not intended and not allowed... but they do it anyway.
If it's allowed by the devs and considered a legitimate activity in the context and confines of the game, then it's obviously not a "cheat" and obviously not relevant to this discussion.
Somehow I'm sure you already knew that.
Some how I suspected that would be your response... I guess I'm just not of The People... ^^ "Common Sense" tends to be neither. Your above is riddled with subjectives. Take "intended or allowed" as an example. Players are supposed to be able to mind read, and thus know what the Dev's "intended"? Or is that part of the Vision Thing(tm) that Dev's are so prone to speak of? Ah, thats where "common sense" comes in... Nothing subjective here... Move along Citizen... ^^
As for "allowed", allowed by whom, or what? The software? That opens up an entirely different can of worms. Are you quite certain you wish to go there? ^^ Strictly speaking, (in that context) if its not "allowed", then you can't do it. Unless we now fall back to "intended" and "common sense"... This could go around and around...
Just another demonstration that in the absence of clear definitions, "Black and White" turn out to either be unexamined assumptions, or part of a Belief system. In *some* situations there do tend to be binary Right/Wrong *choices*. In others its not nearly that clear. As for "unfair", the mind boggles at the subjective implications... ^^
So YOUR argument is with yourself, not others then. Because the majority of people know what cheating is, & those who cheat, definatly know their doing it.
Which means, if u cheat = sub-human who needs hacks, to compete, or take on a challenge. U want what u cannot have, so u cheat to feel the accomplishment's of others whom you envy. We all know why they hack..
But what needs to be done with them is very simply. Deny them ur product. If they are found cheating, their account is closed and that credit card & address no longer usable. Better yet, just have root kits installed, that simply doesn't allow them to play the game. These cheaters will scream so loudly because their not uber anymore... lol
No, my argument is with a lack of clear definitions. The appeal to "common sense" or "most people" is hand waving at best. I have my own personal set of principles that I live by. They are not "flexiable" or negotiable. But I do not hold others to them, as they are mine. I've already stated that some cases merit the perma ban hammer of Doom. But thats after examination. The idea of "Zero Tolerance" may make a good sound bite, but it says much more about the person or group using it, than they are likely to realize. Little of it good.
Just out of curiosity, I know what my personal feeling on the subject are, but would any of you concider "powerleveling" to be cheating?
If it's not in the EULA and you can't get banned for it, then I don't consider it a cheat or an exploit. I don't normally do it myself, but I don't care if others do.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Someone is MEGA trolled, anyways pointing back to the article.....cheaters should be punished when/whereever they exploit the rules. If you cannot begin a task without taking shortcuts then get out because it ruins things for everyone else. I understand the logic behind saying "Everyone cheats" but unfortunately that is a child's mentality.
We both want to go from a to b.
You can afford a car. Travel time: 5 minutes.
I can't. Travel time: 2 hours.
Is that fair? Is that NOT cheating? You use the ressources you have and I doubt you are ashamed of that.
You seem to assume (or at least you're trying to imply) that game rules are there to assure equality of outcome. This is a false premise. They're supposed to ensure equality of opportunity so that the better player wins. Cheating by definition nullifies that principle. You're trying to conflate me being an inherently faster runner than you and therefore winning a race with cheating, in order to justify your doing the race on a bicycle by claiming a false moral equivalency: if I'm cheating by being a faster runner then it's OK for you to cheat by winning a foot race by riding a racing bike.
No, my argument is with a lack of clear definitions. The appeal to "common sense" or "most people" is hand waving at best. I have my own personal set of principles that I live by. They are not "flexiable" or negotiable. But I do not hold others to them, as they are mine. I've already stated that some cases merit the perma ban hammer of Doom. But thats after examination. The idea of "Zero Tolerance" may make a good sound bite, but it says much more about the person or group using it, than they are likely to realize. Little of it good.
Except there are clear definitions. They are not "gray areas". They are quite defined, quite identifiable and quite well known to be considered cheating and, thus, prohibited.
That's what I, Sovrath and others have pointed out, even giving well known examples which, again, come up quite often across various MMOs. Of course, you seem to ignore those statements. Natch.
You seem to keep arguing as though there either are no pre-existing rules to play by, or that there's no way of really knowing what they are. Both positions are vacuous at best.
Your argument would work if there were no rules and restrictions already established by the developers themselves. However, the rules are established, they are documented, they are well known and they are frequently discussed in various forums, regarding pretty much every MMO out there. Every time you click a button or check a checkbox agreeing to adhere to those rules, you are held to them... whether you agree with them or not. You don't get to defer to your own personal set of principles of what's "okay" and what isn't when you're playing in someone else's playground.
Further, ignorance of the rules - if that's one's position to argue from (e.g. "I didn't know the rules, therefor they don't apply to me") - isn't an excuse to break them. A lot of people mistakenly think because they don't read the EULA or ToS that they're not held to it while playing. They're wrong. Ignorance fo the rules is not license to break them. It's the player's responsibility to find out what the rules are and abide by them. If they don't, and they're banned or suspended for it, they have only themselves to blame.
Finally, it's extremely easy to play within the rules of any MMO. I've played myriad MMOs - not to mention video games overall - and I've never cheated in a single one of them. I've never been even so much as warned for or suspected of doing something that is considered cheating. I didn't need to study a manual, or read the ToS word-for-word to figure it out. It's not some obscure, esoteric knowledge that only a "privileged few" get to know about. Your opinion of the phrase notwithstanding, common-sense - using one's brain a little bit - is all that's required to deduce whether something is okay to do or not. It's not rocket science.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Its fairly simple ... Developers need to start handling the exploiters with a heavy iron fist. Any time I play a mmo and I know there is exploiting going on but the Developers are refusing to tar and feather the exploiters, I make a point of ensuring the whole community knows exactly who did what.
I don't believe tattling is bad and exploiting pisses me off to no end.
Agreed. The hacks and cheats in Age of Conan are what was the final nail in the coffin for me with that game. The game had/has problems and I could work with those. I just couldn't handle the level of cheating that was going on and how obvious it was and how Funcom handledi t when players reported it.
While I don't believe it is entirely on the developers, players must have some kind of ethics when playing a game, AoC for me was an example of a developer who, by their actions, encourages cheating. Known players who cheated reaped the benefit of that cheating openly. Known exploits that benefited players were not rolled back allowing players who exploited to reap those rewards. If as a developer you don't enforce your own rules you can't expect the player base to take them seriously. They have flip flopped on what is allowed and what is not. But lets face it enforcement is expensive, it costs the developer money. If your revenue is down you can cut costs by limiting enforcement. I'm not just talking GM in game; it also costs to fix the bugs that cause exploits. This to me removes the metaphorical lock on the door. The lock is there not for the crooks but to keep the honest people honest. If you see players benefiting in game from cheats and exploits with little or no repercussion it sure is going to be tempting to do the same. Another option for some of us, as was the case with me, is just to refuse to play such a game.
No, my argument is with a lack of clear definitions. The appeal to "common sense" or "most people" is hand waving at best. I have my own personal set of principles that I live by. They are not "flexiable" or negotiable. But I do not hold others to them, as they are mine. I've already stated that some cases merit the perma ban hammer of Doom. But thats after examination. The idea of "Zero Tolerance" may make a good sound bite, but it says much more about the person or group using it, than they are likely to realize. Little of it good.
Except there are clear definitions. They are not "gray areas". They are quite defined, quite identifiable and quite well known to be considered cheating and, thus, prohibited.
That's what I, Sovrath and others have pointed out, even giving well known examples which, again, come up quite often across various MMOs. Of course, you seem to ignore those statements. Natch.
You seem to keep arguing as though there either are no pre-existing rules to play by, or that there's no way of really knowing what they are. Both positions are vacuous at best.
Your argument would work if there were no rules and restrictions already established by the developers themselves. However, the rules are established, they are documented, they are well known and they are frequently discussed in various forums, regarding pretty much every MMO out there. Every time you click a button or check a checkbox agreeing to adhere to those rules, you are held to them... whether you agree with them or not. You don't get to defer to your own personal set of principles of what's "okay" and what isn't when you're playing in someone else's playground.
Further, ignorance of the rules - if that's one's position to argue from (e.g. "I didn't know the rules, therefor they don't apply to me") - isn't an excuse to break them. A lot of people mistakenly think because they don't read the EULA or ToS that they're not held to it while playing. They're wrong. Ignorance fo the rules is not license to break them. It's the player's responsibility to find out what the rules are and abide by them. If they don't, and they're banned or suspended for it, they have only themselves to blame.
Finally, it's extremely easy to play within the rules of any MMO. I've played myriad MMOs - not to mention video games overall - and I've never cheated in a single one of them. I've never been even so much as warned for or suspected of doing something that is considered cheating. I didn't need to study a manual, or read the ToS word-for-word to figure it out. It's not some obscure, esoteric knowledge that only a "privileged few" get to know about. Your opinion of the phrase notwithstanding, common-sense - using one's brain a little bit - is all that's required to deduce whether something is okay to do or not. It's not rocket science.
No. In some situations matters are just as you and others have stated. In others, matters are not nearly as clearly defined as you appear to believe. The Argument from Ignorance is a well known fallacy. It is also known in the legal realm. To the extent that the law departs from justice, is the extent that it relies on force alone as its justification and beyond that is null and void.
As for "Common Sense" as I stated, its neither. In general, the world is not divided into absolutes. Thats why its vital that matters be properly examined. Unfortunately, due to personal or ideological bias far too many people seem incapable of such an examination.
Personally, I've never "cheated" in any online game. I see no point to such behavior. But I'm not going to join in to a general witch hunt, just to demonstrate that I'm one of The People. I have little use for Mob psychology in any of its many aspects.
No, my argument is with a lack of clear definitions. The appeal to "common sense" or "most people" is hand waving at best. I have my own personal set of principles that I live by. They are not "flexiable" or negotiable. But I do not hold others to them, as they are mine. I've already stated that some cases merit the perma ban hammer of Doom. But thats after examination. The idea of "Zero Tolerance" may make a good sound bite, but it says much more about the person or group using it, than they are likely to realize. Little of it good.
Except there are clear definitions. They are not "gray areas". They are quite defined, quite identifiable and quite well known to be considered cheating and, thus, prohibited.
That's what I, Sovrath and others have pointed out, even giving well known examples which, again, come up quite often across various MMOs. Of course, you seem to ignore those statements. Natch.
You seem to keep arguing as though there either are no pre-existing rules to play by, or that there's no way of really knowing what they are. Both positions are vacuous at best.
Your argument would work if there were no rules and restrictions already established by the developers themselves. However, the rules are established, they are documented, they are well known and they are frequently discussed in various forums, regarding pretty much every MMO out there. Every time you click a button or check a checkbox agreeing to adhere to those rules, you are held to them... whether you agree with them or not. You don't get to defer to your own personal set of principles of what's "okay" and what isn't when you're playing in someone else's playground.
Further, ignorance of the rules - if that's one's position to argue from (e.g. "I didn't know the rules, therefor they don't apply to me") - isn't an excuse to break them. A lot of people mistakenly think because they don't read the EULA or ToS that they're not held to it while playing. They're wrong. Ignorance fo the rules is not license to break them. It's the player's responsibility to find out what the rules are and abide by them. If they don't, and they're banned or suspended for it, they have only themselves to blame.
Finally, it's extremely easy to play within the rules of any MMO. I've played myriad MMOs - not to mention video games overall - and I've never cheated in a single one of them. I've never been even so much as warned for or suspected of doing something that is considered cheating. I didn't need to study a manual, or read the ToS word-for-word to figure it out. It's not some obscure, esoteric knowledge that only a "privileged few" get to know about. Your opinion of the phrase notwithstanding, common-sense - using one's brain a little bit - is all that's required to deduce whether something is okay to do or not. It's not rocket science.
No. In some situations matters are just as you and others have stated. In others, matters are not nearly as clearly defined as you appear to believe. The Argument from Ignorance is a well known fallacy. It is also known in the legal realm. To the extent that the law departs from justice, is the extent that it relies on force alone as its justification and beyond that is null and void.
As for "Common Sense" as I stated, its neither. In general, the world is not divided into absolutes. Thats why its vital that matters be properly examined. Unfortunately, due to personal or ideological bias far too many people seem incapable of such an examination.
Personally, I've never "cheated" in any online game. I see no point to such behavior. But I'm not going to join in to a general witch hunt, just to demonstrate that I'm one of The People. I have little use for Mob psychology in any of its many aspects.
Your entire argument is basedon the exception rather than the rule. Yes, there are sometimes circumstances where a grey area may exist and a person doesn't know he is cheating. At what point was the conversation about that? The conversation is about people who are knowingly cheating in a video game and that is rather black and white. It seems like you are trying so hard to be open minded here (and that really isnt a bad thing) that you are rejecting conclusions that your very posts seem to indicate you would otherwise agree with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Your entire argument is basedon the exception rather than the rule. Yes, there are sometimes circumstances where a grey area may exist and a person doesn't know he is cheating. At what point was the conversation about that? The conversation is about people who are knowingly cheating in a video game and that is rather black and white. It seems like you are trying so hard to be open minded here (and that really isnt a bad thing) that you are rejecting conclusions that your very posts seem to indicate you would otherwise agree with.
Bingo.
Also, @Wraith... There is no witch hunt. You're still attempting to paint cheaters as the victims here. Cheaters are treated exactly the way they deserve to be.
Also, there is no being "One of The People". It's simply acknowledging someting for what it is and taking a principled position on it. Cheating, by definition, is wrong, period. There is no "gray area" there.
Of course someone could, in some rare cases, be using an exploit and not realize that's what it is until it's pointed out to them. There still is no gray area. It's still considered a cheat, even if the person using it doesn't realize at the time they're doing so. It's still prohibited, and it's still wrong nonetheless.
By and large, though, I would argue people who are caught cheating know damn well that's what they're doing, especially considering how outlandish and unusual the tactics are that they're engaged in.
To use Sovrath's example... if players cannot readily hop up to a section of terrain and keep falling down... but keep attempting it until they find the right angle to get to it from, and find they're standing on an invisible block of collision geometry that has them hovering on thin air, they clearly were trying to get somewhere they are not intended to be.
That on its own isn't necessarily a bad thing, assuming that's the extent of their activity.
However, if that person, having reached their perch proceeds to start attacking mobs and realizes the mobs can't reach them to attack, and they continue killing the mobs anyway for "easy xp"... they know damn well they are abusing an exploit. Common sense would indicate what they're doing is not intended gameplay. They are cheating.
I "get" where you're trying to come from here... Your logic is simply too flimsy.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Your entire argument is basedon the exception rather than the rule. Yes, there are sometimes circumstances where a grey area may exist and a person doesn't know he is cheating. At what point was the conversation about that? The conversation is about people who are knowingly cheating in a video game and that is rather black and white. It seems like you are trying so hard to be open minded here (and that really isnt a bad thing) that you are rejecting conclusions that your very posts seem to indicate you would otherwise agree with.
Bingo.
Also, @Wraith... There is no witch hunt. You're still attempting to paint cheaters as the victims here. Cheaters are treated exactly the way they deserve to be.
Also, there is no being "One of The People". It's simply acknowledging someting for what it is and taking a principled position on it. Cheating, by definition, is wrong, period. There is no "gray area" there.
Of course someone could, in some rare cases, be using an exploit and not realize that's what it is until it's pointed out to them. There still is no gray area. It's still considered a cheat, even if the person using it doesn't realize at the time they're doing so. It's still prohibited, and it's still wrong nonetheless.
By and large, though, I would argue people who are caught cheating know damn well that's what they're doing, especially considering how outlandish and unusual the tactics are that they're engaged in.
To use Sovrath's example... if players cannot readily hop up to a section of terrain and keep falling down... but keep attempting it until they find the right angle to get to it from, and find they're standing on an invisible block of collision geometry that has them hovering on thin air, they clearly were trying to get somewhere they are not intended to be.
That on its own isn't necessarily a bad thing, assuming that's the extent of their activity.
However, if that person, having reached their perch proceeds to start attacking mobs and realizes the mobs can't reach them to attack, and they continue killing the mobs anyway for "easy xp"... they know damn well they are abusing an exploit. Common sense would indicate what they're doing is not intended gameplay. They are cheating.
I "get" where you're trying to come from here... Your logic is simply too flimsy.
I never stated that cheaters are "victims". They did make the decision, didn't they? But the definition of "cheating" can be vague, and in *some* cases subjective. Inclusion in the class "cheater" doesn't always require an active, informed choice(at least in some peoples minds). Which has been one of my main points all along. Its been entertaining watching some hand wave like high speed fans. ^^
I note your "by and large" above. That admission was all I was looking for. As for the witch hunt aspect, its typical of the Mob psychology involved to be rather sloppy about their targets. History has demonstrated the results. I dislike cheaters as a class myself. But I'm interested in examining these things on a case by case basis, before I assign someone to that class.
I don't share your tolorance of RMT's. They hurt the game in 2 ways:
1. the SPAM. in the early days of Aion the RMT's completely took over the public chat channels effectively isolating anyone who wasnt already in a clan, plus multiple tells every our & theyd fill up you mailbox too. I don't understand this tactic, the ppl who want to trade w/ RMT's are going to seek them out & the rest of us never will no matter how much spam they send. it felt like they were punishing us for not doing business with therm. its not that bad in other games I've played but it still can be really annoying
2. it hurts the game economy. when u look on the auction house & see the average pair of lvl 15 gauntlets selling for 15M plat, you can thank the RMT's for that. I'm going to refer to Aion again. drops in that game are rare & even gold is hard to come by. with everthing in the AH inflated so bad that the only way you can afford gear is to either craft (I don't craft) or buy gold (I refuse to do that)
I liked Aion but I stopped playing after a few weeks mainly due to these reasons, to a lesser degree I've see the same things happen in other games I've played
Totally agree, Rmts are the cancer of the mmo community. They totally destroyed ff11. Spamming, Bullshit ah pricesand not being able to hunt for nm.
I don't share your tolorance of RMT's. They hurt the game in 2 ways:
1. the SPAM. in the early days of Aion the RMT's completely took over the public chat channels effectively isolating anyone who wasnt already in a clan, plus multiple tells every our & theyd fill up you mailbox too. I don't understand this tactic, the ppl who want to trade w/ RMT's are going to seek them out & the rest of us never will no matter how much spam they send. it felt like they were punishing us for not doing business with therm. its not that bad in other games I've played but it still can be really annoying
2. it hurts the game economy. when u look on the auction house & see the average pair of lvl 15 gauntlets selling for 15M plat, you can thank the RMT's for that. I'm going to refer to Aion again. drops in that game are rare & even gold is hard to come by. with everthing in the AH inflated so bad that the only way you can afford gear is to either craft (I don't craft) or buy gold (I refuse to do that)
I liked Aion but I stopped playing after a few weeks mainly due to these reasons, to a lesser degree I've see the same things happen in other games I've played
Totally agree, Rmts are the cancer of the mmo community. They totally destroyed ff11. Spamming, Bullshit ah pricesand not being able to hunt for nm.
yeah, after re-reading Isabelle's post I realised I may have interpreted it wrong. I think she was probably referring to micro-transactions. Sorry Isabelle, my bad
I've bought gold, sold accounts, power-leveled for $$ (back in SWG w/ macros), donated to a popular exploit sites, and generally done anything in a game that gives me an edge. Is it bad? Probably. Does it hurt the games overall? Definitely. Do I care? Not in particular.
Your entire argument is basedon the exception rather than the rule. Yes, there are sometimes circumstances where a grey area may exist and a person doesn't know he is cheating. At what point was the conversation about that? The conversation is about people who are knowingly cheating in a video game and that is rather black and white. It seems like you are trying so hard to be open minded here (and that really isnt a bad thing) that you are rejecting conclusions that your very posts seem to indicate you would otherwise agree with.
Bingo.
Also, @Wraith... There is no witch hunt. You're still attempting to paint cheaters as the victims here. Cheaters are treated exactly the way they deserve to be.
Also, there is no being "One of The People". It's simply acknowledging someting for what it is and taking a principled position on it. Cheating, by definition, is wrong, period. There is no "gray area" there.
Of course someone could, in some rare cases, be using an exploit and not realize that's what it is until it's pointed out to them. There still is no gray area. It's still considered a cheat, even if the person using it doesn't realize at the time they're doing so. It's still prohibited, and it's still wrong nonetheless.
By and large, though, I would argue people who are caught cheating know damn well that's what they're doing, especially considering how outlandish and unusual the tactics are that they're engaged in.
To use Sovrath's example... if players cannot readily hop up to a section of terrain and keep falling down... but keep attempting it until they find the right angle to get to it from, and find they're standing on an invisible block of collision geometry that has them hovering on thin air, they clearly were trying to get somewhere they are not intended to be.
That on its own isn't necessarily a bad thing, assuming that's the extent of their activity.
However, if that person, having reached their perch proceeds to start attacking mobs and realizes the mobs can't reach them to attack, and they continue killing the mobs anyway for "easy xp"... they know damn well they are abusing an exploit. Common sense would indicate what they're doing is not intended gameplay. They are cheating.
I "get" where you're trying to come from here... Your logic is simply too flimsy.
I never stated that cheaters are "victims". They did make the decision, didn't they? But the definition of "cheating" can be vague, and in *some* cases subjective. Inclusion in the class "cheater" doesn't always require an active, informed choice(at least in some peoples minds). Which has been one of my main points all along.
We know that. What several have tried to expain to you is that no one has been arguing that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've bought gold, sold accounts, power-leveled for $$ (back in SWG w/ macros), donated to a popular exploit sites, and generally done anything in a game that gives me an edge. Is it bad? Probably. Does it hurt the games overall? Definitely. Do I care? Not in particular.
I actually respect you a little more than the persons who do the same as you but then try and pretend they have some kind of moral justification for it, or that it's someone else's fault. At least you're honest about being cheating scum, and you aren't compounding your offence by trying to bullshit us as well.
As it has been pointed out, what "cheating" is and whether or not it is ok to "cheat" falls in a greyzone in several cases I consider important.
Let me first post the definiton of the word "cheating" from dictionary.com:
–verb (used with object)
1.
to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.
2.
to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believinghim a hero.
3.
to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the lawby suicide.
Case I:
A person decides to buy an item, from another player, for a price he knows is far below market value (he pays less than 30% of market value).
Analysis of Case I:
In all mmorpgs I've played, such behaviour is not illegal. Maybe it isn't illegal because it would require too much manpower to enforce a such rule? Anyhow, some players might think that it is ok to do such actions since the game allows it, while others might think that he is swindling or at least committing a highly dishonorable act.
For those that think that is a highly dishonorable act: is that act comparable to people using some kind of chat hack to get different colors on his text? I would argue, that the case I, was far more dishonorable. If I see someone trying to sell something for far below market value, I instantly whisper to them my knowledge about where the price actually should be so that other people don't take advantage of them.
Which leads me to next case:
Case II:
A person sees someone obviously hacking in such way that it is strongly negatively affecting other people's gameplay; the hacking may be some kind of godmode that is being used to killsteal mobs or grief players. After seeing the incident, the person decides to not do anything and just go on with his quest/traveling/monster killing etc.
Now, while, there may not be any rule against refusing to report gameplay-destroying hackers to the authorities, several people would still find the choice of not reporting, to be a very dishonorable choice.
Now, compare that to people who sell some virtual items to their real life friends for real life money for whatever reason. Which action is worse? I would argue, that a significant amount of people would find the choice of not reporting to be the worse of the two actions.
Case III:
A person finds a way to bug a boss so that the battle is far easier than the game developers intended. It does not say in the rules that you must report any bug to the authorities. Also, it does not say explicetely that it is forbidden to bug a boss. Is that person cheating, and is his action okay?
Here again, people may have different opinions. Some may say, that since the rules do not explicetely forbid it, the action is okay. Other people may say that even if there is no such explicit rule, there is some sort of "common sense" rules within the community, that makes the action a form of cheating. Yet some other people, will say that they do not care whether or not it is cheating, they find the act to be strongly dishonorable and that's what matters.
Case IV:
A person chooses to sell his item to another player for an absurdely high price. He has reason to believe that there is currency exploit/dupe out there. He chooses though to go through with the trade and conciously ignores the possible underlying reasons to why the price was so high. He doesn't bother to neither ask other players, check the forums nor send a support ticket; he is choosing to use "ignorance" as a defense in case it turns out that the currency was illegally obtained.
It should be noted, that the rules are vague enough to make the person believe that he can get away with the "ignorance".
Not the question is: is that person cheating? Is it honorable of him to do what he did? Yet again we have a situation where there are different opinions. Some may think he is a cheater due to breaking some sort of "common sense" inofficial community rules, others may think that he is not breaking any explicit official rules so he is fine and just lucky he could take advantage of the potential real cheater he traded with, Yet some other people, may just think that his act is completely dishonorable.
Final note: I could keep coming with more and more examples. A point is though that whether or not something is "cheating" can be vary vague in several important situations.
Another point is that the degree of how bad some forms of "cheating" are, is a matter of opinion. It is not hard to imagine how some people may see other actions as extremely bad, while others think they are just fine.
The "whole" definition of course explains the word "Cheat" a bit better then your selective version. That said, its why I dont call what players do in the game "cheating". it is to simplistic even if it gets the point across. Why don't I use such a term? Because some rules lawyer will roam on over and tell you why it isnt cheating.
Doing the things that some of these players are doing is ethically violating the spirit of the game at best and at worst are indeed a violation of the terms of service agreement that they agreed to by playing the game. Cheating. You can wax on with a wall of selective text saying that its not that simple and that they aren't cheating or what ever but you are just playing devils advocate, muddying the waters on a clear situation.
InfaVilla, in that massive pile of overthink you've drifted into a topic that no one is discussing. The ethical nature of actions or whether one operates within the spirit of the game isn't what is being questioned. Yes, it's a grey area - no one is arguing that. This issue, as presented by the Isabelle in the article and being discussed here is when one is knowingly breaking the rules of the game and adding insult to injury by rationalizing why they are knowingly violating the rules of the game. None of your cases address that, rather they focus on ethical scenarios outside the written and agreed to rules of the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
InfaVilla, in that massive pile of overthink you've drifted into a topic that no one is discussing. The ethical nature of actions or whether one operates within the spirit of the game isn't what is being questioned. Yes, it's a grey area - no one is arguing that. This issue, as presented by the Isabelle in the article and being discussed here is when one is knowingly breaking the rules of the game and adding insult to injury by rationalizing why they are knowingly violating the rules of the game. None of your cases address that, rather they focus on ethical scenarios outside the written and agreed to rules of the game.
I had a long and elaborate response, but then a site or browser error made it all go away before I could submit.
I will summarize though by saying:
The original question is: "Is cheating bad?" I disagree with the columnist and several people here by thinking that it cheating can be far more good/neutral than bad depending on its nature, it may not be cheating depending on whether you care about "community rules"/"common sense rules", the "real" rules (which may be very vague) or neither of them.
Example of when a "cheater" does far more good than bad in such way the act of cheating may be seen as "good": a hacker hacks to find weaknesses in the system so that he can report them to the authorities.
Example of when a "cheater" is being more neutral than bad: a person writes a bot for a game, not to use it, but because he likes creating automation things.
I will also point out that talking about "community rules"/"common sense rules" does make sense if one assumes that the grand majority of the players do not read the actual rules at all.
-------------
I find following part from the article interesting:
" So I abide by them, though I may occasionally dance around them a little; but finding more efficient ways of doing things within the rules is not exploiting, it’s being smart, and it’s not anything most players won’t eventually figure out by themselves."
First of all: depending on what kind of "efficient ways" you find within the rules, they may or may not be dishonorable ones. For instance, buying items for a significantely lower price from people you know are "new"/"naive", is not "smart", it is just abusive and dishonorable.
Secondly, just because players will eventuelly figure out by themselves, does not give immidiate justification to the action. Not that you necessarely meant it to be some kind of justification, but it sure sounded it that way.
It sounds to me like you are fine with people bugging bosses for easy kills in games who explicetely have not forbid such activity.
Finally, I will point out, that even if something is allowed by the actual rules, it doesn't automtically make it okay, and it may or may not be worse than other things are not allowed by the actual rules.
It sounds to me like you are fine with people bugging bosses for easy kills in games who explicetely have not forbid such activity.
I'm not actually familiar with any MMO that doesn't have a rule against using bugs or exploits, so I can't answer that one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
He's either being extremely facetious, being extremely intellectually dishonest... or he's doing something that I'm not allowed to call out on these forums (and I'll let you figure out what that is
.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Let's avoid baiting others into arguements guys. And please leave snide remarks out of your posts
. Thanks!
?
I've never seen a cheat/exploit or heard of a cheat/exploit that didn't come across as as being anything other than a cheat/exploit.
If you are killing mobs and picking them off because they are getting stuck on geometry and the AI can't back it out and go around then it's an exploit. We've all seen mobs stuck on corners or rocks or bits of geometry.
If you are spending a bit of time before an encounter trying to finagle your way up onto a higher elevation such as a rock or statue and you can't just hop up there but have to finagle your way up there and you slide off so try again and keep trying until you are wedged in a geometry so you can pick enemies off then it's an exploit.
If you are going to a website and giving some third party your cash so they can deliver in game currency to you then that is a cheat.
if you figure out how to open and close your inventory while clicking on a weapon while you jump up and down and suddenly you have two of that weapon then that's an exploit.
I'd be more than happy to look at these "gray" areas that might exist but I've never seen a gray area where it wasn't clear as to whether or not it was a cheat/exploit.
If you don't like the term "common sense" fine but it's not hard to spot these things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If memory serves, there was a period of time when GMs in Lineage 2 were actively hopping around the world, entering popular xp'ing areas, etc... and looking for botters, hackers, etc.
They did manage to catch a number of them. However, after a time the "smarter" RMT folk figured out a way to detect them and would force-log as soon as they came within a certain perimeter of them. Reading the game's memory or something I suppose.
Best way to handle it would be for the GMs to move around as sort of "undercover agents" that would appear like any other player-controlled character - but have GM powers - and catch them in action that way.
One of the problems with GMs in many MMOs I find is that they basically draw attention to themselves, either with a GM prefix on their names, or by using unique armor, etc. In FFXI, the GMs have a unique red and white armor set that 'shimmers'. No other armor set in the game looks like that... so they sorta stand out.
Overall, I agree, though... If there were more GM presence in games - particularly around commonly exploited or botted areas - I think it would make a big difference.
Although, again citing FFXI, SE figured out some clever ways of dealing with different botters/cheaters by using in-game assets, specifically mobs, to deal with them. Easily one of the coolest means of dealing with botters I've seen are Goblin Bounty Hunters... Check these dudes out at this link.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The standard for most MMOs is to have a very discernable presence when manifested for the sake of direct/group interaction and to be invisible (often untrackable) when doing other work. For example, UO GMs have distinct red robes and PotBS GMs have flaming gear and other weirdness, but the unique gear is to make sure they are readily discernible from a regular player when they are visible in order to prevent players from impersonating GMs and scamming/deceiving people.When they are not making a point to be visible, you will never know they are there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No, my argument is with a lack of clear definitions. The appeal to "common sense" or "most people" is hand waving at best. I have my own personal set of principles that I live by. They are not "flexiable" or negotiable. But I do not hold others to them, as they are mine. I've already stated that some cases merit the perma ban hammer of Doom. But thats after examination. The idea of "Zero Tolerance" may make a good sound bite, but it says much more about the person or group using it, than they are likely to realize. Little of it good.
Just out of curiosity, I know what my personal feeling on the subject are, but would any of you concider "powerleveling" to be cheating?
If it's not in the EULA and you can't get banned for it, then I don't consider it a cheat or an exploit. I don't normally do it myself, but I don't care if others do.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You seem to assume (or at least you're trying to imply) that game rules are there to assure equality of outcome. This is a false premise. They're supposed to ensure equality of opportunity so that the better player wins. Cheating by definition nullifies that principle. You're trying to conflate me being an inherently faster runner than you and therefore winning a race with cheating, in order to justify your doing the race on a bicycle by claiming a false moral equivalency: if I'm cheating by being a faster runner then it's OK for you to cheat by winning a foot race by riding a racing bike.
The fallacy is fairly obvious.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Except there are clear definitions. They are not "gray areas". They are quite defined, quite identifiable and quite well known to be considered cheating and, thus, prohibited.
That's what I, Sovrath and others have pointed out, even giving well known examples which, again, come up quite often across various MMOs. Of course, you seem to ignore those statements. Natch.
You seem to keep arguing as though there either are no pre-existing rules to play by, or that there's no way of really knowing what they are. Both positions are vacuous at best.
Your argument would work if there were no rules and restrictions already established by the developers themselves. However, the rules are established, they are documented, they are well known and they are frequently discussed in various forums, regarding pretty much every MMO out there. Every time you click a button or check a checkbox agreeing to adhere to those rules, you are held to them... whether you agree with them or not. You don't get to defer to your own personal set of principles of what's "okay" and what isn't when you're playing in someone else's playground.
Further, ignorance of the rules - if that's one's position to argue from (e.g. "I didn't know the rules, therefor they don't apply to me") - isn't an excuse to break them. A lot of people mistakenly think because they don't read the EULA or ToS that they're not held to it while playing. They're wrong. Ignorance fo the rules is not license to break them. It's the player's responsibility to find out what the rules are and abide by them. If they don't, and they're banned or suspended for it, they have only themselves to blame.
Finally, it's extremely easy to play within the rules of any MMO. I've played myriad MMOs - not to mention video games overall - and I've never cheated in a single one of them. I've never been even so much as warned for or suspected of doing something that is considered cheating. I didn't need to study a manual, or read the ToS word-for-word to figure it out. It's not some obscure, esoteric knowledge that only a "privileged few" get to know about. Your opinion of the phrase notwithstanding, common-sense - using one's brain a little bit - is all that's required to deduce whether something is okay to do or not. It's not rocket science.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
While I don't believe it is entirely on the developers, players must have some kind of ethics when playing a game, AoC for me was an example of a developer who, by their actions, encourages cheating. Known players who cheated reaped the benefit of that cheating openly. Known exploits that benefited players were not rolled back allowing players who exploited to reap those rewards. If as a developer you don't enforce your own rules you can't expect the player base to take them seriously. They have flip flopped on what is allowed and what is not. But lets face it enforcement is expensive, it costs the developer money. If your revenue is down you can cut costs by limiting enforcement. I'm not just talking GM in game; it also costs to fix the bugs that cause exploits. This to me removes the metaphorical lock on the door. The lock is there not for the crooks but to keep the honest people honest. If you see players benefiting in game from cheats and exploits with little or no repercussion it sure is going to be tempting to do the same. Another option for some of us, as was the case with me, is just to refuse to play such a game.
No. In some situations matters are just as you and others have stated. In others, matters are not nearly as clearly defined as you appear to believe. The Argument from Ignorance is a well known fallacy. It is also known in the legal realm. To the extent that the law departs from justice, is the extent that it relies on force alone as its justification and beyond that is null and void.
As for "Common Sense" as I stated, its neither. In general, the world is not divided into absolutes. Thats why its vital that matters be properly examined. Unfortunately, due to personal or ideological bias far too many people seem incapable of such an examination.
Personally, I've never "cheated" in any online game. I see no point to such behavior. But I'm not going to join in to a general witch hunt, just to demonstrate that I'm one of The People. I have little use for Mob psychology in any of its many aspects.
Your entire argument is basedon the exception rather than the rule. Yes, there are sometimes circumstances where a grey area may exist and a person doesn't know he is cheating. At what point was the conversation about that? The conversation is about people who are knowingly cheating in a video game and that is rather black and white. It seems like you are trying so hard to be open minded here (and that really isnt a bad thing) that you are rejecting conclusions that your very posts seem to indicate you would otherwise agree with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Bingo.
Also, @Wraith... There is no witch hunt. You're still attempting to paint cheaters as the victims here. Cheaters are treated exactly the way they deserve to be.
Also, there is no being "One of The People". It's simply acknowledging someting for what it is and taking a principled position on it. Cheating, by definition, is wrong, period. There is no "gray area" there.
Of course someone could, in some rare cases, be using an exploit and not realize that's what it is until it's pointed out to them. There still is no gray area. It's still considered a cheat, even if the person using it doesn't realize at the time they're doing so. It's still prohibited, and it's still wrong nonetheless.
By and large, though, I would argue people who are caught cheating know damn well that's what they're doing, especially considering how outlandish and unusual the tactics are that they're engaged in.
To use Sovrath's example... if players cannot readily hop up to a section of terrain and keep falling down... but keep attempting it until they find the right angle to get to it from, and find they're standing on an invisible block of collision geometry that has them hovering on thin air, they clearly were trying to get somewhere they are not intended to be.
That on its own isn't necessarily a bad thing, assuming that's the extent of their activity.
However, if that person, having reached their perch proceeds to start attacking mobs and realizes the mobs can't reach them to attack, and they continue killing the mobs anyway for "easy xp"... they know damn well they are abusing an exploit. Common sense would indicate what they're doing is not intended gameplay. They are cheating.
I "get" where you're trying to come from here... Your logic is simply too flimsy.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I never stated that cheaters are "victims". They did make the decision, didn't they? But the definition of "cheating" can be vague, and in *some* cases subjective. Inclusion in the class "cheater" doesn't always require an active, informed choice(at least in some peoples minds). Which has been one of my main points all along. Its been entertaining watching some hand wave like high speed fans. ^^
I note your "by and large" above. That admission was all I was looking for. As for the witch hunt aspect, its typical of the Mob psychology involved to be rather sloppy about their targets. History has demonstrated the results. I dislike cheaters as a class myself. But I'm interested in examining these things on a case by case basis, before I assign someone to that class.
Totally agree, Rmts are the cancer of the mmo community. They totally destroyed ff11. Spamming, Bullshit ah pricesand not being able to hunt for nm.
Edgar F Greenwood
yeah, after re-reading Isabelle's post I realised I may have interpreted it wrong. I think she was probably referring to micro-transactions. Sorry Isabelle, my bad
I've bought gold, sold accounts, power-leveled for $$ (back in SWG w/ macros), donated to a popular exploit sites, and generally done anything in a game that gives me an edge. Is it bad? Probably. Does it hurt the games overall? Definitely. Do I care? Not in particular.
We know that. What several have tried to expain to you is that no one has been arguing that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I actually respect you a little more than the persons who do the same as you but then try and pretend they have some kind of moral justification for it, or that it's someone else's fault. At least you're honest about being cheating scum, and you aren't compounding your offence by trying to bullshit us as well.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
As it has been pointed out, what "cheating" is and whether or not it is ok to "cheat" falls in a greyzone in several cases I consider important.
Let me first post the definiton of the word "cheating" from dictionary.com:
–verb (used with object)
1.
to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.
2.
to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believinghim a hero.
3.
to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the lawby suicide.
Case I:
A person decides to buy an item, from another player, for a price he knows is far below market value (he pays less than 30% of market value).
Analysis of Case I:
In all mmorpgs I've played, such behaviour is not illegal. Maybe it isn't illegal because it would require too much manpower to enforce a such rule? Anyhow, some players might think that it is ok to do such actions since the game allows it, while others might think that he is swindling or at least committing a highly dishonorable act.
For those that think that is a highly dishonorable act: is that act comparable to people using some kind of chat hack to get different colors on his text? I would argue, that the case I, was far more dishonorable. If I see someone trying to sell something for far below market value, I instantly whisper to them my knowledge about where the price actually should be so that other people don't take advantage of them.
Which leads me to next case:
Case II:
A person sees someone obviously hacking in such way that it is strongly negatively affecting other people's gameplay; the hacking may be some kind of godmode that is being used to killsteal mobs or grief players. After seeing the incident, the person decides to not do anything and just go on with his quest/traveling/monster killing etc.
Now, while, there may not be any rule against refusing to report gameplay-destroying hackers to the authorities, several people would still find the choice of not reporting, to be a very dishonorable choice.
Now, compare that to people who sell some virtual items to their real life friends for real life money for whatever reason. Which action is worse? I would argue, that a significant amount of people would find the choice of not reporting to be the worse of the two actions.
Case III:
A person finds a way to bug a boss so that the battle is far easier than the game developers intended. It does not say in the rules that you must report any bug to the authorities. Also, it does not say explicetely that it is forbidden to bug a boss. Is that person cheating, and is his action okay?
Here again, people may have different opinions. Some may say, that since the rules do not explicetely forbid it, the action is okay. Other people may say that even if there is no such explicit rule, there is some sort of "common sense" rules within the community, that makes the action a form of cheating. Yet some other people, will say that they do not care whether or not it is cheating, they find the act to be strongly dishonorable and that's what matters.
Case IV:
A person chooses to sell his item to another player for an absurdely high price. He has reason to believe that there is currency exploit/dupe out there. He chooses though to go through with the trade and conciously ignores the possible underlying reasons to why the price was so high. He doesn't bother to neither ask other players, check the forums nor send a support ticket; he is choosing to use "ignorance" as a defense in case it turns out that the currency was illegally obtained.
It should be noted, that the rules are vague enough to make the person believe that he can get away with the "ignorance".
Not the question is: is that person cheating? Is it honorable of him to do what he did? Yet again we have a situation where there are different opinions. Some may think he is a cheater due to breaking some sort of "common sense" inofficial community rules, others may think that he is not breaking any explicit official rules so he is fine and just lucky he could take advantage of the potential real cheater he traded with, Yet some other people, may just think that his act is completely dishonorable.
Final note: I could keep coming with more and more examples. A point is though that whether or not something is "cheating" can be vary vague in several important situations.
Another point is that the degree of how bad some forms of "cheating" are, is a matter of opinion. It is not hard to imagine how some people may see other actions as extremely bad, while others think they are just fine.
The "whole" definition of course explains the word "Cheat" a bit better then your selective version. That said, its why I dont call what players do in the game "cheating". it is to simplistic even if it gets the point across. Why don't I use such a term? Because some rules lawyer will roam on over and tell you why it isnt cheating.
Doing the things that some of these players are doing is ethically violating the spirit of the game at best and at worst are indeed a violation of the terms of service agreement that they agreed to by playing the game. Cheating. You can wax on with a wall of selective text saying that its not that simple and that they aren't cheating or what ever but you are just playing devils advocate, muddying the waters on a clear situation.
InfaVilla, in that massive pile of overthink you've drifted into a topic that no one is discussing. The ethical nature of actions or whether one operates within the spirit of the game isn't what is being questioned. Yes, it's a grey area - no one is arguing that. This issue, as presented by the Isabelle in the article and being discussed here is when one is knowingly breaking the rules of the game and adding insult to injury by rationalizing why they are knowingly violating the rules of the game. None of your cases address that, rather they focus on ethical scenarios outside the written and agreed to rules of the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I had a long and elaborate response, but then a site or browser error made it all go away before I could submit.
I will summarize though by saying:
The original question is: "Is cheating bad?" I disagree with the columnist and several people here by thinking that it cheating can be far more good/neutral than bad depending on its nature, it may not be cheating depending on whether you care about "community rules"/"common sense rules", the "real" rules (which may be very vague) or neither of them.
Example of when a "cheater" does far more good than bad in such way the act of cheating may be seen as "good": a hacker hacks to find weaknesses in the system so that he can report them to the authorities.
Example of when a "cheater" is being more neutral than bad: a person writes a bot for a game, not to use it, but because he likes creating automation things.
I will also point out that talking about "community rules"/"common sense rules" does make sense if one assumes that the grand majority of the players do not read the actual rules at all.
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I find following part from the article interesting:
" So I abide by them, though I may occasionally dance around them a little; but finding more efficient ways of doing things within the rules is not exploiting, it’s being smart, and it’s not anything most players won’t eventually figure out by themselves."
First of all: depending on what kind of "efficient ways" you find within the rules, they may or may not be dishonorable ones. For instance, buying items for a significantely lower price from people you know are "new"/"naive", is not "smart", it is just abusive and dishonorable.
Secondly, just because players will eventuelly figure out by themselves, does not give immidiate justification to the action. Not that you necessarely meant it to be some kind of justification, but it sure sounded it that way.
It sounds to me like you are fine with people bugging bosses for easy kills in games who explicetely have not forbid such activity.
Finally, I will point out, that even if something is allowed by the actual rules, it doesn't automtically make it okay, and it may or may not be worse than other things are not allowed by the actual rules.
I'm not actually familiar with any MMO that doesn't have a rule against using bugs or exploits, so I can't answer that one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre